quote:

---

Originally posted by newcastle-anglican:

Mirfield - It's better geographically for me... but I don't know about the whole monastic rhythm... and wearing the cassock etc alot... but I like the idea of popping into Sheffield. But could it be suffocating?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
With your CV I would guess you would be most comfortable at Westcott, and least comfortable at Staggers. However, the thought occurs - have you considered Queen's Birmingham? That might be a good fall back for you. Liberalish, middle of the road, and not conspicuously straight.

PD

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcastle-anglican:

Cuddesdon - I don't drive,...

---

quote:

---

Westcott - I like the idea of it, having visited it once I didn't love it, and I may feel out of my depth in Cambridge... possibly? is it as cliquey as I imagine?

---

What was it that felt cliquey about Westcott?

I enjoyed being there enormously but what places feel like is very important and very individual. I knew within a few hours of an open day at Westcott that I wanted to train there.

The other thing to consider, if you are in an exporting Diocese, is that some colleges are more likely to have their ordinands retained by the Diocese.
 

---

Posted by Custard (# 5402) on :
 
I agree with the wisdom of visiting first, and with the importance of learning to drive if you can. Folks from Cuddesden can and do cycle into Oxford, but it needs a moderate degree of fitness.

The other thing I'd want to say is not to let your theological background have too strong a say. These things are always fluid, and God may well be calling you to move a bit. Lots of people do at theological college (for good or ill) - I certainly did.

But yes, visit some places, maybe even outside your comfort zone. Cranmer Hall, for example, is probably the broadest of the traditionally evangelical colleges, and just as some evangelicals go to Cuddesden, some liberals and catholics go there.
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
There were even a few Anglo-Catholics at Cranmer Hall in the 1970s. I think they used to sneak off somewhere on Sunday afternoon to secret eucharistic adorations
 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
There were even a few Anglo-Catholics at Cranmer Hall in the 1970s. I think they used to sneak off somewhere on Sunday afternoon to secret eucharistic adorations

---

When I was at the neighbouring hall in the Noughties, there were a couple too.

Thurible
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
I wouldn't be surprised if there are even more now. Especially as it is the only college in the North apart from Mirfield; and Durham diocese has a large number of ango-catholic parishes (or at least used to).
 

---

Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
There are a few anglo-catholics at cranmer, although not huge amounts. It's a fairly broad intake, with an open evangelical core. Lecturers include ordained and lay, anglican, methodist, RC and other. It is a good place, and well worth a look
 

---

Posted by newcastle-anglican (# 17759) on :
 
i have heard cranmer has become quite charismatic... would that be a reasonable observation?
 

---

Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
It can be, but charismatic spirituality is certainly not universal in the student body (or the staff as far as I can see). It's not unusual to see people raise their hands in worship, but nor is it unusual for people to cross themselves or bow. Most people are probably either charismatic or at least comfortable with that style of spirituality.
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
When I was at the neighbouring hall in the Noughties...

---

Well, yes. not being an ordinand or anything like one I was resident in the part of the College that is mostly on the side of the library with easier access to the bar and the boathouse rather than on the side with the croquet lawn
 

---

Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
Things have changed a bit since then - no croquet lawn (at least that I've seen...)
 

---

Posted by Custard (# 5402) on :
 
Charismatic can be surprisingly close to Catholic. I know one lecturer at an Anglican theological college who says that his first proper charismatic experience was in a chapel service at Mirfield...
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Please note, train wise I think Mirfield is easier to get to from Leeds than Sheffield; Balaam should be along to correct me shortly. It is certainly easier to get to Wakefield; simply as from Sheffield you have to change train at Wakefield (top tip, go to Westgate not Kirkgate station which was desolate in 1977 and has not improved). You also have the opportunity to go to Hudderfield and from there you are well connected by the rail network.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:

What do you mean by 'very conservative', Adeodatus? They now have an ordained woman on the staff.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jenn.:
Things have changed a bit since then - no croquet lawn (at least that I've seen...)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Please note, train wise I think Mirfield is easier to get to from Leeds than Sheffield;

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcastle-anglican:


Cuddesdon - I don't drive, am not married or have a child... would this be a disadvantage. Practically not having a car would I feel isolated there?? The diversity would suit me though.

---

quote:

---

Thurible said:
Regarding St Stephen's House, see my thoughts here.

What do you mean by 'very conservative', Adeodatus? They now have an ordained woman on the staff.

---

Well yes, but not exactly intentionally. Lucy Gardner was on the staff there nearly 20 years before she was ordained.

[ 18. July 2013, 12:56: Message edited by: Panda ]
 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Indeed. But MinDiv kept harassing them to have an ordained woman on the staff - and now they do!

Regarding the vesture, liturgically, it has gone a bit trad - plainsong propers and Latin chasubles (and Spanish ones too). But a fair number of the students, and perhaps even one or two members of staff, tolerate it all with a roll of the eyes.

Thurible
 

---

Posted by newcastle-anglican (# 17759) on :
 
i think mirfield does seem like a definite option. will defo take a good look at them all.
 

---

Posted by LRP (# 5013) on :
 
Buses go passed the door, very accessible for Huddersfield, my in-laws go to Battyeford Church which is next door to the Community and is more evangelical. Baalam used to know the church well.The Rev June Lawson is lovely and used to be our curate. I believe she has responsibility for training of ordinands.
I will give Baalam a nudge to post some more info.
The train station at Mirfield is about 10 - 15 mins away.
 

---

Posted by newcastle-anglican (# 17759) on :
 
what happens if you visit them all and don't really feel anything special.
 

---

Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
newcastle-anglican

quote:

---

what happens if you visit them all and don't really feel anything special.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcastle-anglican:
how does it work at cuddesdon if you do the BTh ?
in terms of Oxford Uni

---

They will work it. Anyway Oxford has a Certificate for theology graduates which is all that remains of the former BD and is specifically aimed at people who have a first degree in theology.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
This thread came up in a conversation with one of our ordinands on placement, and I recalled that when I was visiting theological colleges back in the '90s, it somehow occurred to me to ask, 'Are all your ordinands white and middle-class?' In the end, I think it was the way that question was answered that decided me.
In those days, the residential colleges were virtually entirely white and pretty well middle-class too. The line taken was that minority ordinands preferred the regional training schemes. The trouble was that this perpetuated (and still perpetuates) a white, middle-class hierarchy of Bishops, Archdeacons, Cathedral Canons etc. all of whom have been trained residentially, eaten together, prayed together, formed cell groups together etc.

The residential colleges are still, for the most part, the nurseries of a hierarchy that is, if anything, more stratified than it was twelve years ago.

I can't speak for Oakhill, Cranmer, Wycliffe, and St John's, but of the others, only Westcott has a substantial minority of ordinands of colour, and a Principal for whom this is a priority.
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
Hmmm. A bit like our parliamentary 'democracy' is dominated by middle-class policy wonks and ordinary people don't get a look in (except as stuffers of envelopes and knockers on doors at election time).

I remember a working-class ordinand who everyone expected would train on a non-residential course but who opted for a traditional theological college. Unfortunately he has now joined the establishment and has become an ecclesiastical equivalent of John Prescott.
 

---

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
He could have done worse.
He could have become the ecclesiastical equivalent of Eric Pickles.

[ 03. August 2013, 13:10: Message edited by: Amos ]
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
True.
 

---

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Frankly, though, Angloid, what gets to me sometimes is seeing all the diversity of the deacons being ordained every year: in age, in sex, in sexual orientation, in churchmanship, in colour---and then seeing the point at which this stops--so Canons and Archdeacons and DDOs can be male or female but are almost exclusively white, Cathedral Deans can be male or female, but are exclusively white, senior parish clergy generally need to be white and have good hair (add male if they're Evangelical). Bishops are straight (by definition*), male, and, with two notable exceptions, white. How much of this has to do with the connections formed at theological college?

*As a senior diocesan bishop once said to me, 'All bishops are, necessarily and by definition, straight.'

[ 03. August 2013, 14:25: Message edited by: Amos ]
 

---

Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amos:

In those days, the residential colleges were virtually entirely white and pretty well middle-class too. The line taken was that minority ordinands preferred the regional training schemes. The trouble was that this perpetuated (and still perpetuates) a white, middle-class hierarchy of Bishops, Archdeacons, Cathedral Canons etc. all of whom have been trained residentially, eaten together, prayed together, formed cell groups together etc.

The residential colleges are still, for the most part, the nurseries of a hierarchy that is, if anything, more stratified than it was twelve years ago.

---

As someone who's about to start on a regional training scheme, I find the idea of the system of two-tier clergy training deeply troubling, both institutionally and personally: there's a particular tone in which 'oh, so you're going to train on a regional scheme' is said which is very revealing.

Maybe that is over-sensitive on my part. But I am really quite forcibly struck by how poorly resourced the regional schemes are compared to the residential colleges. (Not that this necessarily translates into poor quality of training; in my other life I work at a poorly-resourced, high quality institution that has a mission to serve older, working students, and I know that big money doesn't necessarily mean great quality. Though it's always helpful.) It's depressing to think of one sort of training for the future elite and another for, well, the rest.
 

---

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Niminy Piminy--I'll post something about this in a bit--I've got a Parish Mag article to write right now--but be of good cheer amidst the Trollopean tragi-comedy.
 

---

Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Ok, I'll endeavour not to play my imaginary cello too vigorously in the meantime
 

---

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Please note, train wise I think Mirfield is easier to get to from Leeds than Sheffield; Balaam should be along to correct me shortly. It is certainly easier to get to Wakefield; simply as from Sheffield you have to change train at Wakefield (top tip, go to Westgate not Kirkgate station which was desolate in 1977 and has not improved). You also have the opportunity to go to Hudderfield and from there you are well connected by the rail network.

Jengie

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcastle-anglican:
how does it work at cuddesdon if you do the BTh ?
in terms of Oxford Uni

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zappa:
Don't suppose you want to move to OZ? My alma mater rox

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcastle-anglican:
does anyone know which courses wil be exempt from the new common award?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cenobite:

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcastle-anglican:
how does it work at cuddesdon if you do the BTh ?
in terms of Oxford Uni

---

I did the BTh at Cuddesdon; it's two years since I left, so things may have changed, but this is how it worked for me:

The BTh comprises 12 modules - ordinands do four per year, so if you are on a 2-year residential training, you won't get it finished by the time you leave, unless you work like crazy! I know a couple of people who did finish it, but I didn't feel it was right for me, especially with my son being born at the end of my first year.

Most of the lectures take place 'in house', but one morning a week (Thursdays when I was there), we all travelled into Oxford for three hour-long lectures back to back. That was a good experience, hearing a diverse range of lecturers, and mixing with undergraduates and the BTh ordinands from the other Oxford theological colleges.

A few of the modules require exams - Old Testament, New Testament and Ethics (if you choose to do that module). Most of them are examined by Long Essay, which meant doing four short 'supporting pieces' (which could be a mixture of essays, book reviews, presentations, etc - agreed by the person responsible for the module) and then the major piece of work - 4000-5000 words in the first year, 6000-7000 words subsequently.

For Old Testament and New Testament, there is a college-requirement to write an essay a week to discuss at seminars. That was challenging, but was great at getting me into the practice of preparing a sermon a week now I am ordained. (Yes, a sermon isn't the same as an essay, but the principle is the same).

Finally, on top of the BTh work, there is all the 'formation' that happens at college - some lecture series, the pattern of worship, participating in college life, placements, etc, etc.

It might sound a lot, and I suppose it is, but I thoroughly enjoyed my two years at Cuddesdon, and doing the BTh was definitely the right option for me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcastle-anglican:
does cuddesdon have international links?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis:

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcastle-anglican:
does cuddesdon have international links?

---

Yes -regular exchanges with the College of the Resurrection in Grahamstown South Africa, CDSP (?) in Berkley California.
While I was there one ordinand also spent a couple of terms in Germany, and one went to the English College in Rome.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gee D:

*although academically, the Moore College degree is rigourous.

---

quote:

---

anyone trained there? or training there?
or know much about it?

---

quote:

---

Others will have more solid experience of the place, but I've met a few people who've taught, or who have had some sort of training there. I used to attend a discussion forum there occasionally.

It seems like a mainstream, tolerant sort of place, not really evangelical, although one of the lecturers, who was also a member of my church, told me that the ordinands were increasingly likely to be evangelicals. It used to be an important centre for research in Black theology, but not so much now.

---

 

---

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 
Unless changed in last 4 years still has interest in Black theology - contextual theology in general.

Have overseas MA students on sponsorship programmes and when I left they were building links with black majority churches in the area.

Methodist presence was increasing - and as one of the 2 chosen foci for future training this will continue to be the case. Lots of local Anglicans on various part time, commuting or weekly boarding home at weekends patterns.

Accommodation available in single rooms or in a block of flats. These have a mix of couples, children, and some singles depending on circumstances and demand. Obviously rent on flat more than a room!

Dining room for main meal of day, self serve cereal/toast etc breakfast.

Chapel focussed on lunch time worship when all in that day are around. Mix of styles depending on group leading, mix in staff styles too. Anglo catholics may feel unprovided for - but really it would depend on the mix of students, and you could contribute during your rota shifts. in reality the lack of AC patterns of worship probably reflects that they largely choose to go elsewhere to train.

Describing it as evangelical may reflect worship style but definitely not in theology. A conservative will find their ideas challenged on many levels - feminist theology, black theology, queer theology... all part of the contextual stuff. Though overseas students bring a wide range of experiences and theological views too.

Not sure on course stuff as they have changed from Birmingham Uni validation, good library but take a jumper - the air con is enthusiastic!
 

---

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
Contextual theology sounds right up my street, thanks Avila - no wonder I know so many SCM-linked people there
 

---

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
Forgot to edit in time - Avila (and others), do you know if Queens has links/interests in Quakerism, being in Birmingham with the Bourneville legacy?
 

---

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Avila:
Unless changed in last 4 years still has interest in Black theology - contextual theology in general.
[...]
Describing it as evangelical may reflect worship style but definitely not in theology. A conservative will find their ideas challenged on many levels - feminist theology, black theology, queer theology... all part of the contextual stuff. Though overseas students bring a wide range of experiences and theological views too.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
the increasing numbers of evangelical ordinands were unhappy about studying Black theology

---

What is unevangelical about it?
 

---

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
Angloid

That's a very interesting question. It could be to do with the way the subject has been taught. Or perhaps there's a demographic issue. My impression is that evangelical Anglican, Methodist and URC ordinands are increasingly likely to come from (and hope to be sent to) middle class suburban or small town churches where there are relatively few black members. In such an environment it must be easy to see the subject as irrelevant. Otherwise, it could be that they see the subject as divisive.
 

---

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
If black theology incorporates elements of liberation theology, I can see that putting conservative evangelicals off.
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
the increasing numbers of evangelical ordinands were unhappy about studying Black theology

---

What is unevangelical about it?

---

© Ship of Fools 2016


UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0