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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How do you handle a prayer or song you disagree with?
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
As a kid I was told anything you disagree with or aren't sure, just don't say that phrase, join in again for the rest of it. But kids don't have lead positions.
Once there was an item in prayers of the people that had me reacting with a "huh?" and awful glad I wasn't scheduled to read them that week.
Rarely, there's a line of a hymn I sit out.
But now I'm the "primary" vocal presence (by default not by design) in the new praise band (last week there was the guy with the guitar and a weak indefinite voice who says of himself he is a poor singer, and a woman who is very shy and insecure about singing in public and sings quietly, and me).
All of the songs are about "I", whether the occasional old hymns (Amazing Grace, *I* was lost now *I'm* found) or the predominant "contemporary" CCM songs (*I* will praise you; *I* lift my hands; *I* believe*).
A few of the songs say things that, as statements made by me about me, are untrue. I'm singing "I do this" when I don't have any interest in doing this. Or "I believe that about God" when I have carefully considered that theology and come to a current position of "no, that is not true."
To avoid discussing any one song (there's a dead horses thread for that) I'll make up a ridiculous example. Let's say a song declared "I stand on my head daily as a declaration of praise for Jesus." If the song said "we" do that, maybe some part of the present "we" does, or thinks it a playful harmless imagery even if not literally true, so what the heck, sing it. But the statement is *I* do that. But I don't. It feels dishonest to me to address God with "I do this, I long for that" when I don't.
The greater distress is when the song declares something I think deadly wrong theologically. Again to invent a ridiculous example, if a song says "God hates all Hindus and delights in torturing them in hell." No. Absolutely no. But what if I am supposed to lead the congregation in singing it?
I chose the one song I thought absolutely the worst, stated to "worship leader" why I dislike that song and what it's negative effect on me is (makes me want to avoid God). The leader's response was "it has sold millions of copies." The song is newly scheduled for some time this month. Last year I took an entirely different music issue to the clergy person, who said "I have enough to do, I am not getting involved in the music issues." So, there is no one to appeal to who might make some small changes to relieve my stress.
Other than dropping out of the group (which is increasingly tempting), what would you do in either situation - the song declares a desire or behavior not true of me, the song declares a theology I reject, and the wording is *I* do or believe that? As a primary voice in the song leading, not just another voice unnoticed in the congregation? In a fledgling group struggling to survive? (If they had plenty of people, no one would miss me if I dropped out.)
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
You say politely and apologetically that you have this problem, that it affexts x percentage of the music chosen, that you know your ( non) participation in x percentage of the music will be noticeable, and would they prefer you to drop out or can they suggest another option? And if they tell you to go, you go without a fuss.
Some situations just can't work out.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
If it is any consolation, I hit this problem only last Sunday.
I have been part of the regular music group in the various churches I have attended since the mid 1980's, always taking a back seat role where possible. OK, so playing the flute (which is now my main instrument) is hardly back seat, but it doesn't involve words, so no problems arise.
For last Sunday evening's service, our usual front-line singer / guitarist wasn't available. As our electric guitarist doesn't sing, that left me to pick up my (very nice) 12-string acoustic and lead the singing.
The problem line was, "Oh, I feel like dancing." I'm very sorry, I simply don't do dance. So I cannot sing that line. (By the way, I hadn't chosen the song). So, before we launched into it, I explained that all and sundry would have to sing up for that line, because I wasn't about to sing a lie.
Many years, I heard a remark, "Christians don't tell lies, they sing them." Sadly true.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I suppose all Christians should think about this potential problem before they join choirs or worship bands, especially if their churches are more evangelical than they are.
As someone who has mostly sung traditional hymns in a fairly left of centre church (Methodist) I feel that most people (or just Methodists?) seem much more comfortable singing hymns that they may disagree with than worship songs. I've come across Methodists who've admitted that there are things in traditional hymns they don't agree with, but I've never heard them say that they have to skip a line!
Singing your heritage and maintaining that bond with previous generations of worshippers is more important than agreeing with every word, whereas new music lacks the patina of age, so it's not forgiven so easily. But liberal Christians seem okay with reciting traditional liturgies that they may not completely agree with, so why not just take the same approach with music?
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The "I"/"We" thing is not as simple as people suppose; it seems to me to a balance that is struck in many congregations between how people are addressed in communications and in worship. Basically,those that use "I" in worship tend to use "We" in communication and visa versa.
It goes with a whole lot of other cultural signals, but it is not as simple as one is individualist and one is communal.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
The problem line was, "Oh, I feel like dancing."
You're not the only one. (Look right before the comments.)
Even in the Olde Hymns, there's some hyperbole and metaphor that is hard to ignore.
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
Singing truths about God, and to God is tricky - and I have often kept my mouth shut during some phrasing or other, or decided to sing in tongues at that point. I'm sure God understands such conflictions, and after all, I am there to worship, not to quibble.
I really feel for those who are told to lead us sing egocentric rubbish to the One Who is Worthy of all our praises. But I think of David, the psalmist, who poured out a myriad of very human emotions that we often paraphrase in modern worship songs. I certainly have trouble reciting some of the psalms as an offering of praise, so I guess I approach this as a similar spotty gift. After all, there is no perfect worship, just worship that I prefer. I take the whole soiled sheetful of it and leave it on the altar with my desires.
Then I let God sift through it, because as long as my heart was pointed in the right direction, God will receive what WAS worthy.
It certainly wouldn't be the offering of song from me anyway, as I am a lousy singer. My intentions are all I have ever been able to give.
Is that helpful?
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Singing your heritage and maintaining that bond with previous generations of worshippers is more important than agreeing with every word, whereas new music lacks the patina of age, so it's not forgiven so easily. But liberal Christians seem okay with reciting traditional liturgies that they may not completely agree with, so why not just take the same approach with music?
The heritage concept is intriguing.
The other aspect is when a song is about "we" - "we dance for you God" can be "true" even if I don't personally dance, if the group of "we" includes some for whom the concept is true - in body or spirit.
For me, it's harder to sing or say *I* do X when in fact I don't! Not a major issue in the congregation, no one knows if I'm singing along.
Maybe once every two or three years the issue arises in one song one week, like in a church that did an old spiritual that ends with the concept "you have to go thru life alone." I stopped mid phrase in startle at the words. The pastor let the song conclude and then loudly announced "that song is wrong, you are never alone."
New problem arises with a new set of music that comes from outside this church's tradition, chosen by a music committee "to attract younger people" and say they pick songs based on what they like on the radio. Even that would be OK, I've been around CCM on and off - but standing up front leading others *I believe this* feels like *I* am making a public declaration "this is what I personally believe."
I like Lamb Chopped's idea of bouncing it back to music leader - I am willing to do any of the songs on the current list whether I like them or not except for these three that for me troubling lies to say *I*.
I feel committed to keep showing up because he's struggling to firm a group and never knows who if any will show up, but am so uncomfortable with a few of the songs I would feel relieved if told "don't come back." But yes - he, not I, should be deciding if they "need" me on an "all but these 3" basis.
Thanks!
(Or should I bounce it off the clergy person first - "I plan to offer music leader a choice of me without three of the songs or no me - unless you have a better idea"? Sigh, I'm not good at politics.)
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
The problem line was, "Oh, I feel like dancing."
You're not the only one. (Look right before the comments.)
The main problem with this song, in my limited experience, is that it's sung at churches that don't do dancing! If everyone's standing stiffly to sing every other song, why would they suddenly start dancing for this one?
But as a reserved Salvation Army speaker said at a Pentecostal service I once attended, 'I was dancing on the inside'. Maybe we should sing this song with this thought in mind!
I think we should try not to be too literalist about our hymns and worship music....
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Matthaios
Apprentice
# 17828
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Posted
Do you feel the same way about the Psalms? Would you only say/sing a Psalm that represented your attitudes and views accurately at that particular moment? (And there is plenty of "I am doing thus and so" and "We feel/believe such and such" that would fit with much of what you've said.) If not (and I'm assuming you do use the Psalms as part of your personal/corporate prayer/worship) then how do you approach them? What I try to do (on better days) is approach a bad lyric the same way I would with an awkward verse in a Psalm: offering it up to God with the rest of the congregation nevertheless, and personally doing the best I can with it. After all, it is not my agreement or feelings that make it "worship." Thank God, because otherwise worship would be basically impossible.
For another thing, I don't want the only songs my church to sing to be whatever the music group agrees with or feels good about, and neither would anyone else benefit if the only songs they sang were the ones I happen to like. Nor would I benefit, for that matter, because it's the disagreements and uncomfortable bits that help me to grow. Of course there's a line to be drawn somewhere, but the Church is a pretty big place with plenty of dodgy theology and unrighteous anger for us all to share.
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In this desert of language we find ourselves in,
with the sign-post with the word 'God' worn away
and the distance?
(R.S. Thomas)
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
Not sure if this is helpful, but in our worship group we have the rule that at band practice on Thursday night we can grumble about what we are being asked to sing (whoever is preaching gets to choose the songs, unless our music co-ordinator is able to steer them away from the unsingable).
On Sunday you turn up and you sing whatever it is as if your life depended on it, and with the appropriate expression on your face.
I do know that some of us have issues with things like 'to the ends of the earth we will go' when we have no intention of setting off for Outer Wherever, and it isn't just new stuff: equally I have problems with 'take my silver and my gold, not a mite would I withhold' when that is really an aspiration not a fact. But then again, God knows our heart, and if we have to sing things we can't 100% subscribe to He isn't fooled.
If you really can't make yourself sing it then you have to say so to the worship leader or whoever picks the songs. And really, you know, how many copies were sold is entirely irrelevant - brings us back to the old 'if everyone else jumped off a cliff' argument, doesn't it?
Well, good luck with that one anyway, Belle
Mrs. S, who actually does feel like dancing!
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Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
New problem arises with a new set of music that comes from outside this church's tradition, chosen by a music committee "to attract younger people" and say they pick songs based on what they like on the radio. Even that would be OK, I've been around CCM on and off - but standing up front leading others *I believe this* feels like *I* am making a public declaration "this is what I personally believe."
As someone who's loved being in different kinds of choirs, the thought of belonging to a church choir where I could never influence the choice of music seems quite unappealing to me. Perhaps that's why the leader is struggling to get a firm group going!
FWIW, it's potentially problematic if you attract 'young people' by singing songs that don't reflect either the theology or the heritage of your church. One might say you're appealing to them under false pretences. That's something you could mention to your minister and the musical director.
I think the real problem is that your tradition (like most of the traditions represented here, I suspect) is no longer producing 'youth-friendly' songs of its own. But maybe that thought is tangential to this thread.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I appreciate the comments, and the variety of comments/opinions/experiences because I've never before had reason to think about what are we doing, what does it mean to "lead the congregation in worship" (any kind of worship - prayers, sermons, music, etc).
I have heard (read) some preachers say they preach doctrines they personally think wrong - rapture, subordination of women, Revelation as a timeline - because it's what their congregation demand to hear. Last week I sang "Eye Hath Not Seen" (in a different church) and wondered if I agree with the "therefore fear" part, but I did at one point believe that way so I could relate to it. Sort of a "heritage" concept? The psalms, usually something has happened in my life that I felt somewhat that way that, so I can relate.
A song that says something I have always thought dead wrong, in a non-fiction environment (as opposed to a stage show fiction drama), is a new experience but I was confident not a unique one!
What is community, what is hypocrisy? Are they sometimes different labels for the same thing depending on viewpoint?
Anyway, on a personal level, to come home from rehearsal churning in distress unable to sleep just from the deep irritation I feel from a few of the songs is unhealthy. I need to find a different approach to being in the group, or a different attitude, or drop out, or something.
I was hoping to have a few months to study the genre and then find songs in it to propose as alternatives, instead of just "I don't like this one" but song leader moved up the date of the one song I told him I can't sing and explained why, instead of February it's next week, not enough time for that approach.
New experiences make us grow!
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
Belle, as one 19th century song writer put it:
"In your hearts enthrone him,
There let him subdue
All that is not holy
All that is not true"
I can sleep well on that thought.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
This thread makes me really appreciate my Quakerism more, generally we worship in silence and we rarely sing - Peace, Perfect Peace!
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Don't involve the pastor. That just dramas up a situation that is firmly in the music leader's area anyway. If the pastor is sufficiently concerned by the outcome--if he even notices it, mine wouldn't notice a cannon going off behind him--he'll say something then.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
What is community, what is hypocrisy? Are they sometimes different labels for the same thing depending on viewpoint?
This is not about hypocrisy in that sense. The use of "I" in hymns does not mean that they do not see themselves as a community. If you look in the right place there will be "we" aplenty. You can read Noel Heather's research if you do not believe me. The churches he refers to as using "we" are often the very ones who use this sort of hymnody. In other words,they acknowledge they are a community, but the place where that is acknowledged is not in the hymns. Normally you will find this connected with sermons on personal salvation.
If you go to a congregation that uses "we" in worship you will probably find that you are treated far more as an individual and not part of the community outside worship. The church where people come with few attachments to other members and no one talks to a stranger in the congregation often uses "we" in worship.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
It strikes me that there are two issues with songs that invoke the sacred "I".
One is that they are too self-centred - I think that can be true, though there are even old hymns which are very personal. Clearly a balance needs to be struck between these and other, more objective, hymns.
The other issue is whether one can sing them. Within a congregation it is easy just to maintain silence at the difficult built, problem sorted. However in a music group the issue is different, and I wonder if one can put "mental inverted commas" round the phrase or song, and basically think in terms of, "It's not me, I'm just quoting". After all, we would do just that if we were engaging in a public reading of a book where a character says something that we would never accede to. This could be especially useful when the passage in question is actually a Biblical quotation.
I don't think this is hypocrisy - when we lead worship we are doing so as "representatives of the church community" or "facilitators of worship" rather than as individuals. But I do think this needs to be coupled with a chat to the person who chooses the songs as you can't make those reservations for ever!
My wife had a bit of a row with our Choir Master over the carol "Adam lay y-bounden" because she felt that the language inaccurately reflected the Biblical narrative (i.e. there are no apples in it!) "Jesus Christ the apple tree" was not much better (and, in case you think she's apple-phobic, let me tell you that we went to a farm shop yesterday and bought lots of lovely local varieties!)
[ 06. October 2013, 08:11: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
My wife had a bit of a row with our Choir Master over the carol "Adam lay y-bounden" because she felt that the language inaccurately reflected the Biblical narrative (i.e. there are no apples in it!)
But the lyric states it was an apple - and that the world is (at the time) 5,000 and some hundreds years old and Mary is Queen of Heaven. If you are going to object to pieces of writing on the grounds that they contain propositions which are not in line with subsequent advances in human knowledge or scholarship, then one could spend one's days interrupting Hamlet on the grounds that 12th C Denmark wasn't a bit like that.
I presume the difference is that the congregant is supposedly co opting the lyric as an expression of personal conviction. This seems to me overly individualistic. What about 'The song belongs to the tradition/community I identify with. I am giving the current expression of it'?
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
Belle,
Does it help to think of it as a sacrifice that you are making in order to facilitate the worship of the whole congregation? As a not very good singer, I can find it distracting if the lead voice suddenly goes quiet, especially if it is a piece I am not familiar with, and that can have an impact on the worship I am offering God.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Belle Ringer
What is community, what is hypocrisy?
It depends on whether you are happy that the words resonate with other people there, even if they don't with you. Taking Darllenwr's example, singing that you feel like dancing when you don't, seems to me to be serving by facilitating worship for those who do feel like dancing, and I guess that you'd feel happy to serve them.
Singing that you feel like subjugating women would be different, because not only would those words not be true for you, but you would rather they were not true for the others as well.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
It depends on whether you are happy that the words resonate with other people there, even if they don't with you. Taking Darllenwr's example, singing that you feel like dancing when you don't, seems to me to be serving by facilitating worship for those who do feel like dancing, and I guess that you'd feel happy to serve them.
I seem, inadvertently to have started something I didn't quite intend here. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
I don't do dance - simple enough. My congregation are Anglicans (in South Wales) - IME they don't do dance either. On the other hand, if they want to sing that they feel like dancing, that's fine by me - I just don't happen to feel like it either!
For me to sing "I feel like dancing" would be a simple lie. It may be different for other people, whether they actually dance or not.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
I don't do dance - simple enough. My congregation are Anglicans (in South Wales) - IME they don't do dance either. On the other hand, if they want to sing that they feel like dancing, that's fine by me - I just don't happen to feel like it either!
Out of interest, why DO they want to sing that song? Isn't there another song that would better express their common heritage, shared spirituality and theology? There are plenty of songs that allow us to sing of God's love.
If a musician at a church I was attending had to tell the congregation in advance that they didn't quite agree with the song they were about to perform, I'd find that a bit off-putting, personally. This isn't a criticism of you, but of the dissonant context. Maybe it's just me.
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ozowen
Shipmate
# 8935
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Posted
My church sings a lot of Hillsong and similar. It's not that I disagree with the words, often they are so close to meaningless it's hard to disagree with them.
On the other hand I rarely participate in them. I find the use of such mindless drivel- well, a lot like mindless drivel. I have made it very clear what I think and the pastor often jokes about how he has the latest Hillsong CD aside for me.
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Without stupid people we would have no one to laugh at, so take time to thank a creationist for their contribution.
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Good question! I just play what's put in front of me - I don't choose 'em. As I said, I usually try to take a back-seat role, that of supporting musician. Other people choose the songs.
And, yes, it does jar a bit. Personally, I prefer quieter, more reflective, songs. But my preference is not what is important in these circumstances, is it?
E.T.A. X-post. This was intended as a response to Svitlana.
[ 06. October 2013, 15:45: Message edited by: Darllenwr ]
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
I think it's a case of you are there to lead the singing and not to make personal statements of doctrine. Unless it is a heresy then it applies to somebody in chruch somewhere.
It's the same principle with bible readings - you may not want to read St Paul telling women to shut up in church, but if it's the bible reading for the day you just have to do it.
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
One song that I refused to sing is "Are ye able" said the Master, "to be crucified with me". "Yea" (which I assume means yes) the sturdy dreamers answered......etc etc. Rubbish.
Fortunately that was in my far-past youth, and me the adolescent Sunday School pianist.
And in the present more modern times, I hate "Amazing grace" on many levels. Right off the bat you have to sing "...that saved a wretch (or worm) like me". I try to say silently "nah nah nah I can't hear you" until I can finish playing.
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Pearl
Ah! I asked on the 'Crappy Choruses' thread if anyone disliked 'Amazing Grace' but noone responded, so it's interesting to read your thoughts now. I think it's one of those hymns that mostly gets a pass.
[ 06. October 2013, 18:30: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
There is a lot of musical dross in every genre of church music. By and large the older hymns get the more likely it is that the least appealing ones get forgotten (not always I know, it is a generalisation).
For modern music we hare having to work through the dross, maybe in 50 years times many will have gone and we will be left with the best ones.
We just have to grit our teeth and bear it and remember we are providing worship for other peopel and not just worshipping ourselves..
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
For me, it's fascinating to come on the Ship and realise that so many people are attending churches where they're obliged to sing modern music that they dispprove of, for one reason or another.
My concern is with the lack of coherence and authenticity in these situations. I can't see the situation improving in 50 years' time if the mainstream churches continue to rely on the same sources for their music. In fact, it might get worse, because those sources are likely to represent an increasingly large and influential percentage of active Christianity, leaving a small 'mainstream' with less and less of a choice but to be culturally (if not theologically) absorbed.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I must have missed the question about Amazing Grace: I hate it with a passion.
The words grate and seem to me dubious.
The tune is dull and has had so many different popular recordings made of it that you can guarantee there won't be concurrence about what precise notes constitute the tune in any congregation.
And then it was recorded on bagpipes by the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards which (a) sounded truly dreadful and (b) led the unquestioning to assume it falls into that category known as "Scots traditional".
The horror ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
Taking Darllenwr's example, singing that you feel like dancing when you don't,
I seem, inadvertently to have started something I didn't quite intend here.
I just thought it a marvelous example of an "untrue" statement on the mild side. Today I sang along with (and mine probably the only voice the congregation heard because the mics or amps weren't working) "I can only imagine" when the list of things imagined about meeting Jesus, my truth is "none of the above." I decided it's harmless if any want to think those ways, or think I agree with the statements, but I can understand someone saying "untrue of me" and declining to sing (especially if just half a line is involved).
Great example quite apart from whether you or someone else said it!
But a different song today embraces the doctrine that caused me to totally reject God a few decades ago. TEC has never that I know of endorsed it, the committee hear the song on the radio and like the tune. For me, it's a potentially soul destroying message (even though some churches aggressively teach it). That raises the stakes.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
I don't like "Amazing Grace" but can't go so far as to actually hate it.
"I vow to thee, my country", now. Has no place in a Christian church, in my view, and is not intelligent enough to be patriotic, and moreover is unfair to Holst. Not so much hate as deep loathing. Unfortunately some people seem to want it. If I'm in the choir I just have to swallow hard and put up with it, after all some people presumably find it helpful or they wouldn't have asked for it.
[ 06. October 2013, 19:53: Message edited by: blackbeard ]
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Belle, I can certainly appreciate your dilemma - that is not a position in which I would like to be placed.
It may just be me being fussy, but I find that many more recent songs have far better tunes than they have words. One book that I read suggested that this was the consequence of the cult of the singer/songwriter having taught us that, for a song to be 'authentic', it has to be written by one person alone, words and music both.
Which is a nonsense - very few of the hymns that have survived the test of time (ie, the ones we have in our hymnbooks today) were written by only one person. I find myself wondering just how much of, for example, Graham Kendrick's prodigious output will still be in print in 50 years?
Sadly, (and I confess that I have been guilty of this myself) it is far to easy to be attracted by a decent tune and fail to consider carefully enough what the words are saying. It sounds like this is the position that you have been placed in.
Truthfully, I don't know the answer to your problem. I don't think that you can easily take my approach and simply duck the issue - that approach is for cowards and I don't get the idea that you are one. There has been much sound advice offered above, but eventually it comes down to this, will you be able to live with yourself if you sing something that is really repugnant to you simply to keep other people happy? Tough call, I guess. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
I don't like "Amazing Grace" but can't go so far as to actually hate it.
I dislike the tune it is normally set to, but I can't dislike the words, especially the "Through many dangers" verse. The idea that grace will continue to lead through danger as it already has is of great comfort when things get difficult.
Then we get to the tacky wishful thinking of the clumsily added final verse, which was not written by Newton. There should be an eighth circle of Hell for that verse to be cast into, then I wouldn't have to sing it.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I must have missed the question about Amazing Grace: I hate it with a passion.
The words grate and seem to me dubious.
The tune is dull and has had so many different popular recordings made of it that you can guarantee there won't be concurrence about what precise notes constitute the tune in any congregation.
And then it was recorded on bagpipes by the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards which (a) sounded truly dreadful and (b) led the unquestioning to assume it falls into that category known as "Scots traditional".
The horror
I completely agree with everything you say! Unfortunately, it was our opening hymn this morning.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
(Sorry for the double post.)
It's not just the modern songs that can cause this problem. I'm happy to say we don't do any of that. But today, we're singing the Psalm like proper Episcopalians, using beautiful Anglican chant, and we come to the final line of the Psalm:
quote:
Happy shall he be who takes your little ones, *
and dashes them against the rock!
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
(Sorry for the double post.)
It's not just the modern songs that can cause this problem. I'm happy to say we don't do any of that. But today, we're singing the Psalm like proper Episcopalians, using beautiful Anglican chant, and we come to the final line of the Psalm:
quote:
Happy shall he be who takes your little ones, *
and dashes them against the rock!
If I remember correctly, the 'little ones' are the sinful thoughts of the Babylonians and are not actual children.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Don't involve the pastor. That just dramas up a situation that is firmly in the music leader's area anyway. If the pastor is sufficiently concerned by the outcome--if he even notices it, mine wouldn't notice a cannon going off behind him--he'll say something then.
This puzzles me. Surely the minister/ priest/ whatever chooses the music (ideally in discussion with the organist/ worship leader/ etc) because s/he has the ultimate responsibility for whatever happens in the church's worship? That's what I've done in any situation where I've been put in charge, and thought it was common practice.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Don't involve the pastor. That just dramas up a situation that is firmly in the music leader's area anyway. .
This puzzles me. Surely the minister/ priest/ whatever chooses the music
Depends on the church. In some, the music leader is a professional hired to run the music program and make the decisions. In some the clergy pulls out his guitar and leads the singing.
And in some a committee (which may include the clergy as committee member) and the music leader discuss what they would like and can he do it - which can be a friendly discussion, or mutually distressing if they want something he believes impossible - a big choral sound from a 6 person choir; or that he thinks poor music - a classical musician asked for Shine Jesus Shine or a praise band asked for Gregorian chant.
A clergy person who feels ignorant about music, or a committee that judges music solely by "do I like that song," may decide "we need modern worship music to attract youth" without much caring what the words say because the goal is not to express the church's theology but to attract youth.
Which maybe can cause a church to adopt a music genre few in that church actually like? But they put up with it so "maybe more young people will come."
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
To clarify--I wasn't thinking of the choice of music but rather the question of how to deal with a volunteer who has scruples (or other issues) making it impossible for her to sing x percentage of the music -- which I presume has either been played by the pastor or his delegate, who may well be the music director him/herself. If the question is really how can I bring about a change of heart in the music choosers, there are more appropriate ways of doing that. Trying, anyway.
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I decided last night to tell music leader I'm taking the next two weeks off to handle some urgent personal business - I must give absolute priority to getting my taxes done! And I've been wanting to drive cross country to visit some friends in their 90s, not something I should keep putting off, and good driving season is ending.
That gives me some time to fuss at God and let God work on my attitude or understanding instead of my having to decide "in or out" or "what's a reasonable conditional in" under urgent time pressure because the one song I already told him "no" is suddenly rescheduled for this week.
I would gladly just drop out, but couple weeks ago I was going to skip rehearsal and felt that inner check that I was supposed to go. And one of the bigger pictures is that I have been asking God for a few years what is corporate worship, why is gathering to pray and sing and learn important when I can do those more fully and meaningfully at home.
Being in this group is confronting me with specific questions about what is group worship, what is "leading" an aspect of group worship? Maybe being in this stressful situation is God's way of pulling me into discovering the (probably complex multi-sided) answers.
Which means if I stay in it has to be with my focus on what does God want of me, not what does music director or church committee want of me - including what do I go along with even though I disagree, and when and how and *why* do I say no.
I asked a friend what she would do if leading prayers of the people and one of them she disagreed with. She said that happened once. The prayer asked God to bless the Jews. She added "and the Arabs." Being told to lead an aspect of worship in a way you disagree with really is a broader issue than just music.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
(Or should I bounce it off the clergy person first - "I plan to offer music leader a choice of me without three of the songs or no me - unless you have a better idea"? Sigh, I'm not good at politics.)
I agree with Lamb Chopped's response here:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Don't involve the pastor. That just dramas up a situation that is firmly in the music leader's area anyway. If the pastor is sufficiently concerned by the outcome--if he even notices it, mine wouldn't notice a cannon going off behind him--he'll say something then.
I agree, the pastor is not the appropriate person to referee a personal disagreement with the leadership's chosen decision just over a few song words. The music leader probably has quite enough contact with the pastor in the week to week planning of things.
To go over the worship leader straight to the pastor would be a very aggressive move and (more pragmatically for Belle) one that is unlikely to work if the worship leader has the confidence of the pastor.
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
This puzzles me. Surely the minister/ priest/ whatever chooses the music (ideally in discussion with the organist/ worship leader/ etc) because s/he has the ultimate responsibility for whatever happens in the church's worship? That's what I've done in any situation where I've been put in charge, and thought it was common practice.
Your experience is your experience. I, and many others, would feel quite uncomfortable with working within a top-down approach like that which sounds way too dictatorial. What happens the week that the pastor is away if the worship leader has not built up the ability and confidence to make the right decisions for themselves?
I prefer a relationship built on trust, where the pastor tells the worship leader of the general theme of the service (especially the sermon) and trusts the worship leader to make some choices (which have to take into account musical issues as well as lyrical ones) and come back to them with a draft running sheet for comment. As newer worship leaders get more experienced at doing their work and trust is built up in both directions, the number of changes that would need to made will dwindle.
The successful working of this method hinges on lots of listening and the agreed decision by both people to think before objecting to what the other has said or making a suggestion that intrudes into the other's area of expertise. When comments are made sparingly it becomes easier for either person to take on board what has been said and evaluate it on merit because they know it wouldn't have been said if it was not actually important.
My experience in this area comes from working in what we kind of call a production role, coordinating communication and administration that leads towards it all being put together ready for the Friday night. I've come to that role through the technical production side of things and I'm not a musician, but all of the worship leaders on the roster will happily consider anything I question or suggest because we've built that trust over the years of serving together and getting to know our respective areas.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I chose the one song I thought absolutely the worst, stated to "worship leader" why I dislike that song and what it's negative effect on me is (makes me want to avoid God). The leader's response was "it has sold millions of copies." The song is newly scheduled for some time this month.
Okay, you've mentioned the issue. You've got the date. Make plans to be elsewhere on that date. Advise the "worship leader" that you will be away. Don't state a reason.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
Replying to Belle with a more general suggestion here. Please don't take this the wrong way, I suggest it purely because I think it might be a good move for you. Here we go…
I think you should consider taking a long term break from being involved in the production of worship services in any form, as an outworking of your question about focusing on what God wants instead of what people at church demand.
You've been posting on here for about five years now, and in that time you've had a lot of threads dominated by discussion of your various battles in the worship wars, whether it be "why can't we do my old favourites" or "I disagree with these lines" or other topics. I'm not going to say who is at fault as there have probably been times where it's been others, times where it's been you, times where it's been mutual and times when it's been nobody's fault but it's come from out of the blue.
The reason I suggest taking a complete break for at least a few months is to take a little time to stop worrying about the worship wars and focus on worship instead, and continuing to do the same weekly grind is not going to help you break that cycle. It's very easy to get jaded and cynical if you are involved in that area on an excessively frequent basis, and if it gets to that point you owe it to both yourself and the rest of the congregation to look after yourself. You don't want to get so tightly wound up that you end up snapping and hurting somebody, that's unhealthy for you even if it's their fault.
Maybe focusing your service to the church on an area other than music for a season would be good?
* I've usually seen that show up as music team members being on so often that when it comes to a week they aren't on the roster they'll just opt out of church completely and stay home.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I chose the one song I thought absolutely the worst, stated to "worship leader" why I dislike that song and what it's negative effect on me is ... The song is newly scheduled for some time this month.
Okay, you've mentioned the issue. You've got the date. Make plans to be elsewhere on that date. Advise the "worship leader" that you will be away. Don't state a reason.
The "date" is when it is first used, then it will be used every week for a month, then at least once a week for another month, to help the congregation learn it. Can't get around it just skipping one Sunday, alas.
I wasn't thinking of asking the clergy person in the sense of dumping the problem on them for them to fix, but for my learning what the big picture constraints are that I should be aware of before I go to the worship leader. But I know I am not good at politics - in church, on the job, anywhere - so am glad for Lamb Chopped's advice on that.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
then it will be used every week for a month,
That seems a good reason not to attend a particular church in itself.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
then it will be used every week for a month,
That seems a good reason not to attend a particular church in itself.
When the goal is to get the congregation to learn a new song so they can sing along (there's no sheet music), the song needs repeating. Some churches repeat by playing the song half a dozen times at once. Others by scheduling the song weekly for a while. I appreciate wanting to help the congregation learn the songs.
Music leader didn't ask for that job; the prior volunteer decided 7 years of it was enough and gave lots of notice, this guy was asked to fill the need, this is the music he likes, people mutter "maybe younger people will come" - but even if I could objectively prove "no one likes this music" (which of course is not true, some people like it) or prove "young people will not come for this music" or "some of this music conflicts with the theology of this church" - what alternative do I propose and who is going to lead that alternative?
Asking someone to take charge of a music program, choose songs, lead rehearsals, be in church absolutely every week to lead the music - free - is a lot. You don't just go find a replacement, and you don't diss the guy who has (somewhat reluctantly I think) agreed to do it.
I'm trying to learn keyboard so I can help out with a music program, like maybe spell a volunteer music leader once a month, but I'm not at all good enough yet.
Open question - what do churches do when their volunteer music leader quits? This is no longer an era when "everyone" learns piano or has a small organ at home or wants to be in church every Sunday plus every Wednesday (for rehearsal) no matter what is going in their life (visiting relatives, etc). There aren't half a dozen people in the congregation who can step up and fill in.
Are congregations learning to sing a capella, or using CD tracks, or increasing the budget to hire a musician, or - ?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
The part answer is let the person responsible for the service ( the preacher in my tradition) choose the music.
And if you disagree with him/her on an on-going basis then quit.
This business of allowing anyone to choose the music regardless of whether it fits within the overall theme of the service is anathema to me.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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