Thread: Downton Abbey Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I know it's a bit late in the day, but after last week's episode it's clear that next week is going to be one to watch. Anyone up for discussion, speculation, etc? Favourite characters, people you can't stand? What is Thomas up to? Will Daisy ever have a happy love life? Has Michael Gregson been arrested as a spy?

Your thoughts on all things Downton are invited...
 

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Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :
 
Personally my favourite character is the Dowager Duchess played by Maggie Smith. She gets all the best lines.

We've also been trying to decide if Michael has disappeared because he's a cad or been "disappeared" because of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Something bad is bound to happen the Bates' though - TV thrives on jeopardy!
 

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Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :
 
And what about Lady Edith? - pregnant and not even knowing where the father of the child is? It'll be interesting see how this is resolved.
 

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Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 
I just hope they don't send Tom Branson off to America, I think he's the most decent character "upstairs".
 

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Posted by Francophile (# 17838) on :
 
Never watched this (dont have a telly) but it sounds a wee bitty like Upstairs Downstairs from the 1970s which I loved as a teenager. I always identified with the less-than-pretty and rather slow scullery maid Ruby who was constantly bullied by Mrs Bridges. Always hated the dashing cad Captain James from upstairs. Apologies for the tangent. Back to the Abbey.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Ina perfect world Tom would end up with Lady Mary - maybe a sparky Irishman would finally inject some life into her because - either because of the way she's written or (more likely) the way she's played, the girl has about as much life as a stuffed trout.

Carson the butler is splendid - and absolutely true-to-life: I knew a retired butler once who absolutely terrified the life out of the younger members of his "family" even in his 80s.
 

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Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :
 
I love the dowager and her famous one-liners too, and in my happy little world Tom's arms are definitely waiting for Mary. I found that little scene with the two of them and Isobel Crawley, about how fortunate they had been to know overwhelming love, very touching.

I have no idea what Thomas and Baxter are up to and think I may have missed something. Can anyone tell me what their connection is?

What if, despite the doctor's letter, Edith isn't pregnant? And if she is, who's going to die when the baby's born? As that seems to be the pattern - Downton baby comes into the world, Downton adult leaves it on the same day.

And Joanne Froggatt deserves an Oscar but I find the Bates story almost too painful; love that couple so much.

Nen - liking the comparison of Mary with a stuffed trout. How true.
 

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Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
I'm waiting to see if Dame Kiri Te Kanawa contrives to do an Australian accent in lieu of her natural Kiwi...

Not on here yet or so it seems. We may have missed an episode or two...


 

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Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :
 
You haven't seen the episode with Dame Kiri yet?

Ah.
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
I think the Dowager does get some of the best lines, but Carson also gets some superb lines. They both deliver them perfectly.

Maggie Smith does have perfect delivery for her lines. The role is made for her.

Lady Mary is very flat, isn't she. I think, having seen her in something else, it is just her style. But it does get boring.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I assumed it was her frozen-by-grief act - don't remember having seen her act in anything else.

Bates is emerging as a much stronger and darker character these days. Was it ever clearly established whether he did or did not kill his first wife? Either way it looks as if his time in prison may have made him harder so more of a force to be reckoned with.
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
No, it was not definitively established whether he killed his first wife or not. And yes, he is - for whatever reason - a far darker person than he used to be.
 

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Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Nenya:

I have no idea what Thomas and Baxter are up to and think I may have missed something. Can anyone tell me what their connection is?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sparrow:

quote:

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Originally posted by Nenya:

I have no idea what Thomas and Baxter are up to and think I may have missed something. Can anyone tell me what their connection is?

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I don't think there is a connection. I can't make Thomas's motives out at all, beyond total malice towards everyone.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sparrow:
I can't make Thomas's motives out at all, beyond total malice towards everyone.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nenya:
You haven't seen the episode with Dame Kiri yet?

Ah.

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Apparently we missed the start of the series! Bloody hell! The DVR is supposed to record all first-run episodes of"Masterpiece Theater" but it seems to have missed the new D A...
 

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Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 
One thing that puzzles me slightly, in the 1920s would even the nobility have apparently thought nothing of leaping on the train to go up to London just for the day all the way from Yorkshire? Surely in those days the journey would have taken about 4 hours? Do-able I suppose but the Downtonites seem to do it frequently.
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
Sparrow - I do wonder. I think they would have planned to stay over a lot more - down and back in a day would have been a lot.

Lord Grantham would have stayed at his club overnight if he had to go. The ladies at the sisters place. I don't think they would have taken the rigors of two journeys in a day, even in first class.

I used to do weekly commuting to York, just ten years ago, and that was tough enough, when the journey time is 2 hours London to York.
 

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Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
C reminded me we don't get it here until January.


 

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Posted by Sighthound (# 15185) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sparrow:
One thing that puzzles me slightly, in the 1920s would even the nobility have apparently thought nothing of leaping on the train to go up to London just for the day all the way from Yorkshire? Surely in those days the journey would have taken about 4 hours? Do-able I suppose but the Downtonites seem to do it frequently.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sighthound:
More concerning to me is that they seem to arrive at St Pancras. Given that they apparently live near Ripon, the East Coast route to Kings Cross would be much more efficient. I can only think they are MR/LMS shareholders.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sparrow:
Apparently there will be a death next week. I guess the evil valet.

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Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
William died in series 2, after saving the life of Mr Matthew in the trenches. You should remember - he took weeks to die and managed to get Daisy to merry him on his deathbed.

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So he died with a smile on his face?


 

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Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sparrow:

quote:

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Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
William died in series 2, after saving the life of Mr Matthew in the trenches. You should remember - he took weeks to die and managed to get Daisy to merry him on his deathbed.

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So he died with a smile on his face?

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That would be using the same gag twice though; remember the man who died in Lady Mary's bed?

I hadn't heard there was to be a death. That'll make watching this week's episode nice and relaxing...

Nen - guessing that the slippers and Horlicks should be taken off Sunday evening's agenda.
 

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Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
Our dog spends one day a week at a friend's, a boarder/groomer who over the years has collected a pack of nine dogs, most of whom she and her husband adopted over the years from clients who could no longer keep them. The alpha of this motley pack is a Welsh corgi we affectionately refer to as Carson because of his air of authority mixed with weight-of-the-world exasperation as he manages the other dogs.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Well!

Will Edith get away with it? I've got my doubts - perhaps she'll somehow get news of Michael when she's in Switzerland?

Lady Mary? She still seems so bloodless...

I'm sure Branson could do better than that priggish schoolmarm; I certainly hope so because I'm not sure their shared love of progressive politics will warm the cockles of their hearts AND any bed for long.

Mr Molesley seems to be coming out of his shell but no doubt Thomas will do his best to ensure it all ends in tears.

And did Mr Bates make a sneaky trip to London? I've got my doubts: he had no idea what time Anna and Lady Mary were due back so is unlikely to have risked it. More probable is that he did just what he said he was going to - went to York for the day.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
So much for this series ending on a cliffhanger. If you didn't watch last night's episode, you missed very little. Distinctly underwhelming.
 

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Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 
I agree. Pretty boring really.
 

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Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :
 
All will be revealed in the Christmas special. At least I hope so. I think Michael Gregson will be found, possibly when Edith and Rosamunde go to Switzerland. He will get his divorce in time and he and Edith will marry quietly and return to Downton with Edith obviously pregnant. Or, possibly, Branson will find out about Edith's plight and will offer marriage.

As for Bates, I think he went to London and made contact with the evil valet, possibly in a pub where he slipped poison into his beer. The effects of this poison then made Green fall under a bus. However, somehow suspicions will be aroused and a post-mortem will reveal the poison. This will be the same poison which killed the first Mrs Bates.

Rose will be presented and have her coming-out ball at Downton. Everyone will be there, including Cora's mother and brother, which will provoke some kind of hiatus.

Downstairs, Daisy's father-in-law will die, leaving everything to Daisy. Alfred will come back and realise Daisy is 'The One' after all. Carson and Mrs Hughes will be facing retirement and will decide to join forces and open a small hotel together, as a married couple. Thomas Barrow will be involved in some dark scheming - perhaps he will find out Bates really went to London instead of York and he will try some blackmail tactic but Bates will kill him as well. Anna will fall apart when she finds out she's married to a serial killer but will recover and be promoted to housekeeper after Mrs Hughes.

The Dowager Lady Grantham will not die, she's far too good to lose.

[ 11. November 2013, 11:34: Message edited by: justlooking ]
 

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Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :
 
Some great ideas there. I think you should e-mail them to contactholmember@parliament.uk
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Molesley and Baxter look like developing a possible romance. He'll probably be a good influence on her and get her away from Thomas.

Not sure about Bates. He might well have gone to York, probably to buy a means of dispatching the evil valet or else to look up some of his old mates from prison to get them to do the job for him. I just hope he doesn't decide that Anna is covering up a guilty love affair and she's to blame for leading Green on.
 

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Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by justlooking:
All will be revealed in the Christmas special ... Or, possibly, Branson will find out about Edith's plight and will offer marriage.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sparrow:

quote:

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Originally posted by justlooking:
All will be revealed in the Christmas special ... Or, possibly, Branson will find out about Edith's plight and will offer marriage.

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Then Edith will die in childbirth, and after a suitable period of mourning he will marry Lady Mary. Three out of three!

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quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
Well!

Will Edith get away with it? I've got my doubts - perhaps she'll somehow get news of Michael when she's in Switzerland?

Lady Mary? She still seems so bloodless...

I'm sure Branson could do better than that priggish schoolmarm; I certainly hope so because I'm not sure their shared love of progressive politics will warm the cockles of their hearts AND any bed for long.

Mr Molesley seems to be coming out of his shell but no doubt Thomas will do his best to ensure it all ends in tears.

And did Mr Bates make a sneaky trip to London? I've got my doubts: he had no idea what time Anna and Lady Mary were due back so is unlikely to have risked it. More probable is that he did just what he said he was going to - went to York for the day.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ronald Binge:

quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
And did Mr Bates make a sneaky trip to London? I've got my doubts: he had no idea what time Anna and Lady Mary were due back so is unlikely to have risked it. More probable is that he did just what he said he was going to - went to York for the day.

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Allen Leech on BBC Breakfast this morning made a humourous reference to an online theory that there was a hitherto unknown really fast train from York to London and back that allowed Bates to do the deed

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The first Special Scotch Express ran in 1862, with simultaneous departures at 10:00 from the GNR's London King's Cross and North British's Edinburgh Waverley. The original journey took 10½ hours, including a half-hour stop at York for lunch; however, increasing competition and improvements in railway technology saw this time reduced to 8½ hours by the time of the Race to the North in 1888.
From 1900, the train was dramatically modernised, introducing such features as corridors between carriages, heating, and dining cars. As passengers could now take luncheon on the train, the York stop was reduced to 15 minutes, but the end-to-end journey time remained 8½ hours.

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quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
2. The Flying Scotsman services left their respective "home" stations at the same time of 10am, so the Edinburgh "down" Scotsman wouldn't have reached York until at least 1pm where it made a stop for lunch.

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quote:

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3. There was an agreement between the rail companies operating the West and East coast routes that a minimum time of 8h 15m be the travelling time, so a train leaving Waverley at 10am would arrive at King's Cross at 6.15pm, the same time the "up" service from King's Cross arrived in Edinburgh.

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…and this would be the 'down' train, wouldn't it?
 

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Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Nerd alert

I haven't been following this series but not all trains from York to London started in Edinburgh. In 1922, it was possible to leave York at 7.40 am and change into a Leeds train at Doncaster getting into King's Cross at 11.50 am or to catch one from Sunderland at 9.32 am that got to King's Cross at 1.35 pm.

Getting back if he'd caught the 7.40 am, there was an express to Scarborough that left King's Cross at 1.50 pm and got to York at 6.5 pm.

Later than that, there was an express that left King's Cross at 4pm for both Leeds and Newcastle, splitting at Doncaster. The Newcastle portion got to York at 8.47 pm. There was also one at 5.25 pm for Hull and Sunderland. The Sunderland portion reached York at 9.27 pm.

Because the break between companies was at Doncaster, Newcastle expresses often did not stop at York.


It might well not have been possible to get a bus from the village early enough to catch a train at 7.40 am or late enough to get home from a 9.27 pm train. In that era, the bus timetable would have been designed for people going to town for market or business purposes rather than commuting.


During the late thirties, in addition to the streamlined trains to Scotland and Newcastle, which tended not to stop en route, the other trains gradually speeded up a bit, but this didn't really get going until about 1933. From 1923, there was only one company involved and the engines got bigger, but initially that mainly resulted in the trains getting heavier rather than faster.
 

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Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :
 
That sounds feasible Enoch. In one recent episode Carlson and Mrs Hughes had seen someone off at a station and then walked back to Downton together. So I'm assuming there's a branch line station within walking distance and Bates set off early to walk to this station and catch a train into York. He would have his tickets as proof that he went to York and returned from there.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
But we're not talking about the 1930s - Downton at the moment is in the very early 1920s so we're looking 10 years earlier.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
"Dramatic licence", people. Don't take it too seriously, it's only entertainment, and there have been other anachronisms in the series. I suggest chalking this up as one, suitable for the purposes of plot development.

While we're on the subject of realism, I'm not an expert on this but can't say the accents have struck me as particularly Yorkshire, either.
 

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Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :
 
I'm loving all the nerdy train talk. I think we are being far too obviously pushed into thinking that Bates went to London and did Green in. I think he went to York for some completely innocent reason, such as buying a birthday present for Anna. I badly want those two to have a happy ending, with roses round the cottage door and a number of gorgeous children.

Green either met with an unfortunate accident or was Seen To by someone hitherto completely unthought of. My money is on Mrs Hughes, whose alibi will be provided by Mrs Patmore on account of the support Mrs Hughes provided during her cancer scare. Mrs Hughes and Carson will end up as an item too and serve the family to the end of their days, even when the house becomes a theme park and Carson has to oversee the bouncy castle.

Someone new will come in for Daisy. That poor child has had rotten luck in love and deserves better than the insipid Alfred.

I really hope Branson does end up marrying Mary and they can found a dynasty of Downton children to keep the dear old place going. Mind you, Edith's baby is in the equation too. I'm sure Gregson will be found and the baby will be born at Downton. In a plot line innovation, both parents will survive the experience. I have high hopes of Edith becoming a younger dowager in her delivery of humour and one liners after her exchange with Lady Violet - "Why don't you get us both an ice cream?" "That should do the trick." The loss of Lady Violet is almost unthinkable but I have a nagging doubt...

Nen - romantic idealist.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Nerdy tangent alert!

I've not been watching this series of "Downton" - but a plotline in the BBC's "Dancing on the Edge" hinged on a character catching the "night train to Paris" at midnight in the early 30s.

The "Night Ferry" sleeper train only started running in 1936 and it left London at 9 pm, so that would have been impossible.


Ends.
 

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