Thread: Hard Times Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by computergeek (# 17826) on
:
In an idle moment I have been browsing the directory of members.
Over 800 pages of names!
I did not look at every page but a representative sample of about 50.
Try it for yourself.
One thing which is immediately obvious is that the vast bulk of registered members (I would reckon 90% plus) are apprentices who have, in most cases, made zero posts. Where an Apprentice has posted, the most common number of posts are 1 or 2.
I would suggest that the number of active strand regular posters is less than a few hundred.
What puts people off posting?
I wonder if regular posters are aware of the air of smugness and intellectual superiority which is very apparent on these Boards. New members are only welcome insofar as they don't rock the Ship or challenge the views of regular posters. It's very obvious that the old trusties get away with much, much more than regular posters.
The tone of the Boards is that if a very smug and self-satisfied club of "in" people sharing private jokes with each other.
I suggest that regular posters just aren't aware of how smug it all seems to the newcomer or outsider. Not many newcomers seem to have the courage or energy to point this out.
As someone said recently on one of the threads, Whistleblowers can expect a hard time.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
computergeek: I would suggest that the number of active strand regular posters is less than a few hundred.
I can think of many, many boards that would thank the Lord on their bare little knees if they had a couple of hundred active posters.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
I think you have to take into account that a lot of people register, maybe say a thing or two, then get bored (or angry) and wander away, never to darken our doors again. To get a really good accounting of current members you'd need to know how long it's been since they visited, and how frequently.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
Hi computergeek,
Before this thread gets shunted elsewhere (possibly to Purgatory, 'cos it's worth a debate) I wonder it this 'hockey stick' usage is not typical of bulletin boards? I've signed on to many BBs of varying topics but the Ship is the only one I post on much. This might even be typical of communities as a whole; after all, what proportion of the population are involved in party politics beyond voting?
btw, if anyone irritates you with 'smuggery', there's always the Hell board!
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
I don't have the time to replicate your analysis of members. But, I reckon your stats are about right. If you look at the number of visitors at the bottom of the main forum page, it rarely goes over 150.
As to why people register and don't post, or post very rarely, I don't really know but there are several reasons I can think of that would come above your suggestion that the Ship is cliquey and unwelcoming.
For a start, I expect many people register because they see a thread that's of interest but by the time the registration process has been completed the thread has moved on or someone has already said what they'd want to say. I know I've frequently read an interesting thread but not posted because what I can contribute has already been said. I'm sure I'm not unique there.
Some people register to contribute to one thread, and simply don't have time after that initial contribution (or, non-contribution if the reason above is valid) to read many other threads. Infrequent visitors will probably find that seeing an interesting thread where everything has already been said is very common. They still pop in and see what people are saying, but very rarely get the chance to say their piece before someone else says it for them.
Some people register, maybe post one or two times, and find that the Ship isn't quite what they're looking for. We can't possibly fill every need people have. Hopefully they've found what they're looking for somewhere else. Our serious discussion boards are places where any view posted may be robustly critiqued, some people want something a bit less robust. That's find, but robust and unrestful discussion is what we're about.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
I'm also not sure if the Ship should 'reach out to the masses'. According to the number of posters who post actively here, there is obviously a need for intelligent discussion of faith-related topic on the internet. If the Ship can provide that, then what's wrong with that?
I do agree with you though that there is a bit of a threshold to go over if you post here for the first time. I had to swallow five times before I made my first post here years ago. I'm not sure what the Ship can do about that.
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by computergeek:
I wonder if regular posters are aware of the air of smugness and intellectual superiority which is very apparent on these Boards. New members are only welcome insofar as they don't rock the Ship or challenge the views of regular posters. It's very obvious that the old trusties get away with much, much more than regular posters.
The tone of the Boards is that if a very smug and self-satisfied club of "in" people sharing private jokes with each other.
I suggest that regular posters just aren't aware of how smug it all seems to the newcomer or outsider. Not many newcomers seem to have the courage or energy to point this out.
As someone said recently on one of the threads, Whistleblowers can expect a hard time.
Did you have any particular boards or threads in mind?
In some ways, I can sympathise with your point about intellectualism. There are some seriously clever people round here and sometimes - usually in Purgatory - they don't pull any punches. There's scarcely a Shipmate (including the clever ones) who hasn't been singed at some time or another. But that's Purgatory: robust, get-you-brain-in-gear debate is what it's about. You're much less likely to find that kind of thing, say, in All Saints, which is much more about mutual support.
And yes, there's a number of seasoned posters here who'll jokingly recall with each other things that happened years ago. But there's nothing in that that's intended to exclude newcomers.
There may be all sorts of reasons why people register but don't post. But also, don't assume that a low post count means that someone posted for a while and then stopped - I've been here long enough to know of a number of people who keep posting, but who do it only once every few weeks, months or even years.
Stick around. Honestly, there's more to the Ship than you seem to have experienced so far.
(Cross posted with ... ooh, virtually everybody.)
[ 19. September 2013, 15:35: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by computergeek:
As someone said recently on one of the threads, Whistleblowers can expect a hard time.
Whistleblowers about what? How many boards welcome newbies coming on board and saying, "You're doing it all wrong. I know because I'm new and can see exactly how to fix your culture, whereas you're blind to it." I can't imagine that kind of arrogance would get much good play anywhere. We've seen it many times, and yes, people who blow that hard often meet with resistance. Can you just imagine.
As for people challenging theological positions, there probably aren't a LOT of mainstreamish theological positions that aren't represented here, plus atheists, Swedenborgians, yada yada. We don't tend to have a lot of people from non-Christian backgrounds, but then I don't know why they would be particularly drawn to a board about "Christian Unrest."
It's true that Mormons tend to get driven away by certain long-time members who have had very bad experiences with Mormonism. But I can't think of any other group that gets that treatment.
But to be quite honest, the OP has not a little of the air of "Waaah, I'm not in the 'in group'" about it.
Posted by computergeek (# 17826) on
:
Well, its not all bad.
The thread which I started on baptism got some amazingly helpful replies, but then seemed to descend into intellectual smuggery (mousethief, what have you got against believers' baptism, and please don't SHOUT?). On the other hand, as a new believer I asked for a simple explanation about hell and eternal conscious suffering and was made fun of. Very offputting. I will take my questions off board. Yes, SoF does some things great, and has some stupendously gifted explainers (on baptism, cliffdweller rates a Big Thanks from me) but some stuff reakes of smuggery.
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by computergeek:
On the other hand, as a new believer I asked for a simple explanation about hell and eternal conscious suffering and was made fun of. Very offputting.
Was that where you got into a conversation with Martin PC Not etc.? I don't think he was having a go at you, that's just how he writes. Some of us suspect him of being a prophet - heart of gold and a passion for Jesus that sometimes gets in the way of comprehensibility. And I really hope he takes that as the compliment it's meant to be.
(And here's me, been here ten years, and I still catch myself wondering if I've broken a house rule by referring to another Shipmate in their absence. I love this place.)
(Edited for typos. My typing's all over the place today. I think I've got dysfingeria.)
[ 19. September 2013, 15:58: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]
Posted by computergeek (# 17826) on
:
Actually, it wasn't Martin PC. I realised he was being serious, although I am too dim to understand bis point so decided it was best not to engage with him as I was not understanding what he was getting at and thought it was pointless pursuing it at a late hour. No, someone suggested that I should take myself and my reasonable question elsewhere as you guys are all too clever for me.
Maybe weshould have a Ship of Fools Inclusive Day for the thick people.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
computergeek: On the other hand, as a new believer I asked for a simple explanation about hell and eternal conscious suffering and was made fun of.
I'm not sure if there is 'a simple explanation about hell and eternal conscious suffering'. Among the Christian spectrum, there are is a whole range of opinions about this topic. One of the advantages of the Ship is that you can have a taste of all these different opinions (although I admit that it can be a bit overwhelming at times).
Adding more to this, we also have are different ways of expressing ourselves on the Ship. I think this is what you encountered on the thread you are referring to.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by computergeek:
mousethief, what have you got against believers' baptism, and please don't SHOUT?
It's an innovation, not the historic teaching of the church. The best the believers' baptism crowd can come up with is an argument from silence and the idea that the church very early got it all wrong, and they have come along miraculously 1500 years later and fixed things. We shouldn't argue this here, but you ask me what I have against it and so I give this answer.
quote:
On the other hand, as a new believer I asked for a simple explanation about hell and eternal conscious suffering and was made fun of.
Really, there is no simple explanation about that. Honest. It's a very fraught subject with two millenia of back-and-forth that has resulted in no universally-accepted solution. Because every side (universalists, annihilationists, and eternal-tormentists) can pull out scripture passage after scripture passage to (not unreasonably) support its claim.
And what Adeodatus said about Martin. He has very strong opinions and expresses them in ways many find difficult to understand.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
computergeek: No, someone suggested that I should take myself and my reasonable question elsewhere as you guys are all too clever for me.
On which thread did that happen?
quote:
computergeek: Maybe weshould have a Ship of Fools Inclusive Day for the thick people.
We do. It is called H&A Day ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
(Now there's an inside joke ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
)
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
:
I find, too, that over time there are a few (but only a few) posters whom I'll consciously avoid, because they tend to annoy me - unless, of course, I want to get annoyed that day.
On the other hand, there are names that appear on threads that will make me go and put the kettle on just so I can sit and read what they've written. This kind of poster are more numerous than the other.
It's like being part of any community, virtual or real. There'll be people you don't get along with, and people you genuinely feel privileged to be sharing time with. There have been occasions when time spent on the Ship has done far more for my faith than time spent in Church has ever achieved.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
computergeek: No, someone suggested that I should take myself and my reasonable question elsewhere as you guys are all too clever for me.
On which thread did that happen?
I assume it's a reference to this post by another relatively new Shipmate, which was immediately challenged by someone else.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by computergeek:
Actually, it wasn't Martin PC. I realised he was being serious, although I am too dim to understand bis point so decided it was best not to engage with him as I was not understanding what he was getting at and thought it was pointless pursuing it at a late hour. No, someone suggested that I should take myself and my reasonable question elsewhere as you guys are all too clever for me.
Maybe weshould have a Ship of Fools Inclusive Day for the thick people.
(my italics)
That feeling isn't unusual. The Ship is the one place on God's Green Earth where I don't consider myself an Alpha (or at least a Beta+) Dog. I work with some very smart, legally trained, engineers and scientists but the folk here are smarter and sharper still. Through persistence on my part and avoidance of topics that are way beyond me, I've grown to love this place and learn a lot from it.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
Alan Cresswell: I assume it's a reference to this post by another relatively new Shipmate, which was immediately challenged by someone else.
The way I read it, this poster was making a derogatory comment about the Ship's community, not about computergeek or his/her intelligence. And yes, it was a bit daft.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's true that Mormons tend to get driven away by certain long-time members who have had very bad experiences with Mormonism. But I can't think of any other group that gets that treatment.
Muslims
Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on
:
Hi, computergeek: Just so you know (in case you'd rather skip this post), I'm not a believer. I used to be one -- spent many years in 3 different churches (& denoms) before giving up on religion in general and Christianity in particular.
Here's my personal experience of those 3 different churches:
1. Extravagant welcome, lots of attention on arrival (you know, people want to know about you), followed by:
2. Dropping you like a packet of dead flies once they find out you're Not Their Sort (too poor, too single, too young, too old, too traditional, too nonconformist, etc. etc.)
3. Resuming the old connections they've had with other pew-warmer for years, and accidentally or possibly purposely excluding you by constantly referring to stuff that happened ages ago, etc.
It's like joining any established group of humans. It takes time and energy to discover or create a little niche for yourself.
I've stayed here as long as I have precisely because it's not much like a church (despite all the voluminous discussion of Things Religious).
For me, these differences are:
1. New people come aboard pretty regularly, so there's always fresh possibilities for re-arranging your niche.
2. The primary difference between those who post regularly here and the pew-warmers I encountered in church is that folks here, in addition to so many being so much smarter than I am, want to Learn. In church, most of the people I met wanted to Teach. Unfortunately, most of what they wanted to Teach consisted of tired, wan, threadbare old clichés. I don't want clichés. I want authentic thought and real discussion.
I learned more about (for one example) the history of the church on this Ship in my first 6 months than I learned in roughly 15 years of church membership (and I served as a deacon at one point). While church history isn't my "thing," those discussions were / are interesting and informative.
I learned more about various "species" of Christianity here (to say nothing of other traditions) than in 15 years of churchgoing.
Most important, though, what I find here isn't "smugness" (with a few random exceptions) so much as "confidence" -- people here are not only smart (in many case, brilliant), they're well-educated, thoughtful, self-reflective, and willing to be wrong. Man, if only I were half as smart as some the posters here . . .
Those who stay here seem to "stick" over periods of years, and during that time, relationships develop. You can't come down on folks for getting to know each other through long association, and trading obscure jibes and jokes on that basis. It comes with the territory of commitment to this Ship and the fellowship it provides. You'll develop connections of your own, and a few years hence, will be indulging in inside jokes with them.
If confidence and commitment puts newcomers off, then maybe the Ship isn't a good fit for them anyway. If people here use language and references that mean little to newbies, they have a choice: stick around and "eavesdrop" and learn which end is up, or decide that learning things is not for them.
No shame there; lots of people reach a point in life where they feel done with taking new stuff on board. They're interested other mental activities. But providing a learning environment is what the Ship does best.
But frankly, this is the only site I've ever come across which comes close to satisfying my own appetite for learning and discovery -- and I'm not even interested in religion. There are discussions here about politics, public policies, governance, music, art, personal habits and peculiarities, cooking, crafts, education, disabilities, movies, books, popular culture, and on and on.
I wouldn't worry about the poster/membership ratio. There are enough posters here, and enough variety of posters (all of them in the "in" crowd), to sail the Ship over more seas than I've mentioned.
Sure, there are discussions here that are over my head. (There are also academics, theologians, physicists, and so on with advanced degrees in stuff I never heard of, who discuss things I can only dimly grasp -- why wouldn't there be?) The wonderful advantage to discussion forums like these, though, is you can read and watch and listen without commenting. You're not required to risk making an ass of yourself.
I dunno. I think the Ship's a great thing. I also think it's not for everybody, nor should it be.
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
:
Most boards have a "don't bite the newbies" type of policy. I recall my first post, which about a topic I was interested in. Unfortunately it was to hell and I was immediately sworn at by 2 long time members (I remember who they are actually). I objected and was hit again. This doesn't happen always, but probably a little gentleness and some instructions within a welcome-confirmation email to newly openned accounts, coupled with the idea newbies deserve come consideration? And some host/admin guidance / intervention then?
Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's true that Mormons tend to get driven away by certain long-time members who have had very bad experiences with Mormonism. But I can't think of any other group that gets that treatment.
Muslims
On the Ship?
Tubbs
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by computergeek:
No, someone suggested that I should take myself and my reasonable question elsewhere as you guys are all too clever for me.
Whilst there are a very few who do seem to have this attitude, I would not say this is the prevalent ethos. And though I personally think newbies should be perhaps given a little leeway, one presumes we are adults.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Most boards have a "don't bite the newbies" type of policy. I recall my first post, which about a topic I was interested in. Unfortunately it was to hell and I was immediately sworn at by 2 long time members (I remember who they are actually). I objected and was hit again. This doesn't happen always, but probably a little gentleness and some instructions within a welcome-confirmation email to newly openned accounts, coupled with the idea newbies deserve come consideration? And some host/admin guidance / intervention then?
I do agree, sometimes, posters in Hell are nastier than need be. However, a warning is stamped on the lintel.
I like porridge's most excellent post. Except this part.
quote:
You're not required to risk making an ass of yourself.
I do wish I had known this earlier.
As to the member post count, ISTM, this is the way most participatory sites work. Active posters, active listeners and occasional visitors.
There are a number in which I have registered to be able to ask questions or find information but have seldom posted. Indeed a few I've no doubt forgotten I've even been to.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Most boards have a "don't bite the newbies" type of policy. I recall my first post, which about a topic I was interested in. Unfortunately it was to hell and I was immediately sworn at by 2 long time members (I remember who they are actually). I objected and was hit again. This doesn't happen always, but probably a little gentleness and some instructions within a welcome-confirmation email to newly openned accounts, coupled with the idea newbies deserve come consideration? And some host/admin guidance / intervention then?
Part of the ship's unwritten ethos is that newbies get a pass for up to 50 posts, provided they don't post in Hell. In Hell, just as it says on the label, posting is tantamount to drawing a target on yourself. Assuming newbies can read, they will know this.
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's true that Mormons tend to get driven away by certain long-time members who have had very bad experiences with Mormonism. But I can't think of any other group that gets that treatment.
Muslims
On the Ship?
I can't remember the last time we had a Muslim on the ship, so I can't say whether or not s/he was driven away. If there are currently any Muslims here, I cannot say. I certainly haven't seen any Muslim-unfriendly behavior directed at any shipmates.
(ETA: And there's a good way to find out exactly how hell works and how people are treated there. Read it for a while before jumping in. This is actually pretty standard wisdom for any online discussion site.)
[ 19. September 2013, 18:53: Message edited by: mousethief ]
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Part of the ship's unwritten ethos is that newbies get a pass for up to 50 posts, provided they don't post in Hell. In Hell, just as it says on the label, posting is tantamount to drawing a target on yourself. Assuming newbies can read, they will know this.
If the topic is accessed from "today's active threads", then clicking on the topic in the listing and not going to the main listing for the Hell forum, then the Hell warning is not provided.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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No, but it should be the practice to become familiar with "house" rules. Tourists would be more welcome everywhere if they but followed this practice.
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
:
Well, look at it this way, computergeek – you've crashed a party that's been going on for a while, and some of the people partying have known each other for years. Nobody has a problem with the fact that you've crashed the party – if you draw attention to the fact that you're new, some may even take the trouble to murmur a few words of welcome.
There are loads of conversations going on and – rather than having to hover on the sidelines for ages, mirroring people's body language – you can jump straight in. The downside of this is that no one is obliged to respond to you. Equally, nobody is obliged to be polite, but, - except in one place (clearly marked as having different rules) - they are obliged not to be rude or unkind.
As in real life, people who know each other well may refer to things they have in common, and they may not bother to explain that to you, even if they are aware that you are listening (which they may not be). You can always ask.
I've been on the ship for quite some time, but there are still plenty of private conversations, references and jokes that elude me. I didn't do the Nativity play, and I didn't have much to do with the Ark, either, nor with Church of Fools. There are loads and loads of long-term shipmates who know each other better than I know them or they know me. Does that bother me? No. And why should it? Why should they modify their conversations to take account of me? If they refer to something I don't know about, I can ask them to explain it, if it's relevant – and they will then either do that, or tell me it's not really relevant and suggest I mind my own business. Actually,. I don't think anybody's ever done that, but that's mostly because I don't bother to ask. I just go, 'Oh they're on about that again', and walk (metaphorically) away.
As for smugness and intellectual superiority: well, some are genuinely intellectually superior – and some are just twats – one or two are both at once. Ignore the latter and cultivate the former. In real life, if you join a community of a couple of hundred people, would you expect that you're going to like all of them? If you want to stay, stay; if you want to go, go.
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on
:
'As we arrive in the vicinity of Lincoln's-inn-fields, Bedford-row and other legal haunts, we drop a great many of our original passengers, and take up fresh ones, who meet with a very sulky reception. It is rather remarkable, that the people already in an omnibus, always look at newcomers, as if they entertained some undefined idea that they have no business to come in at all.'
Charles Dickens on Omnibuses
It could well be the same here. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
If the topic is accessed from "today's active threads", then clicking on the topic in the listing and not going to the main listing for the Hell forum, then the Hell warning is not provided.
On the front page of the ship is the recommendation (in the imperative, albeit with a "please") to check out the FAQs before doing anything else. Ignorance of anything in the FAQs, including the culture of Hell, which is specifically addressed in the FAQs, is therefore on the user's head, not the Ship's.
Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on
:
Computergeek not only crashed the party, they'd been ejected from it once before. That said, it's an interesting discussion and worth continuing.
Tubbs
Styx host
Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Part of the ship's unwritten ethos is that newbies get a pass for up to 50 posts, provided they don't post in Hell. In Hell, just as it says on the label, posting is tantamount to drawing a target on yourself. Assuming newbies can read, they will know this.
If the topic is accessed from "today's active threads", then clicking on the topic in the listing and not going to the main listing for the Hell forum, then the Hell warning is not provided.
For those that don't know, you need 51 posts to earn Shipmate status. By the time you've got there, it's assumed you've learnt the ropes.
I thought the unwritten rule that anyone with less than 50 posts got cut some slack applied even in Hell.
Tubbs
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
'As we arrive in the vicinity of Lincoln's-inn-fields, Bedford-row and other legal haunts, we drop a great many of our original passengers, and take up fresh ones, who meet with a very sulky reception. It is rather remarkable, that the people already in an omnibus, always look at newcomers, as if they entertained some undefined idea that they have no business to come in at all.'
Charles Dickens on Omnibuses
It could well be the same here.
Well done. It also illustrates the continuity of humanity and how we are always ever the same.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
Every place has a culture.
However, it cannot be true that it's impossible for new members to make headway, or we would never, ever get anyone who signed up after a certain date becoming an active member. A look at the joining dates of active folk will show you that there is a steady stream of arrivals.
Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on
:
It is my understanding that some people who had very rocky beginnings on the ship have become valued members of the ship. As for newcomers fitting in, who is the youngest host and/or admin in ship years?
I value the ship because of the diversity of Christians found here that isn't found elsewhere on the net. Add in those of us who are in a mostly Christian society but don't consider ourselves Christians. And to top it off the intelligence. Admittedly there is an Anglican flavor but there is no religious test for any position (official or unofficial) on the ship. Now if I could just figure out about the bunnies.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
I could be wrong, but I think the youngest in ship years is orfeo.
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on
:
With Ariston running close, I think. Not too many greybeards around anymore. Well Moo's not a greybeard, but...
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
A little spontaneous rummaging around in the secret recesses of the Hosts and Admins gin cabinet suggests that I am, indeed, the baby of the bunch. But it wasn't a thorough scientific exercise.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
I'm still young I tell you! Young! Hair like spun gold!
Of course there are in-groups - there are whole boards I never go to because I'm not In church-going or bible-reading. Long-running threads I scroll past because I don't follow that sport or care about that issue. I don't live on the west coast of North America, so a fair amount of cultural references by those who do pass me by.
I'm not aware of any constellation of Shipmates for whom 'in-ness' is the point. Which is more than can be said of RL in some instances.
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on
:
On the whole I find the ship incredibly tolerant as a board and it's achieved by two things: the presence of hell and the good and conscientious work of the admins and hosts. Generally speaking too, members of the ship are fairly tolerant on the whole, many will greatly encourage and some will stretch you. A few will act like prize assholes and there are varied reasons for this. It might be that they love the look of their own posts, or that they are suspicious of what might be a troll or someone who posts not to engage in a debate but to simply give themselves a public platform for their own views. When it comes to that last one I rarely have any sympathy, I mostly ignore trolls, but I do feel sorry for those who are treated with a bit of suspicion when they are new. But on the whole, there is a much better atmosphere on these boards than on any other I have ever logged on to.
Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
But on the whole, there is a much better atmosphere on these boards than on any other I have ever logged on to.
This. And so I'm still here. Because it's a nice place to hang out.
Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
It is my understanding that some people who had very rocky beginnings on the ship have become valued members of the ship. As for newcomers fitting in, who is the youngest host and/or admin in ship years?
I value the ship because of the diversity of Christians found here that isn't found elsewhere on the net. Add in those of us who are in a mostly Christian society but don't consider ourselves Christians. And to top it off the intelligence. Admittedly there is an Anglican flavor but there is no religious test for any position (official or unofficial) on the ship. Now if I could just figure out about the bunnies.
That’s true – some of them have even become Crew. There’s a nice mix of ages in the Crew -in both Ship years and real years. (Is a Ship year like a dog year – 7 years in real terms btw?!)
IME, you tend to get out of any community what you put in – if you look for offense, cliques etc you’ll find them. If you’re reasonably open minded, up for discussion and have spent a little time exploring before jumping in, then you should have a good voyage.
And, like you, the reason I value the Ship so highly is that it is very different from many other Christian websites – provided you can argue your case and stay within the commandments, you can say pretty much what you like! There’s a range of churchmanship and nationalities etc.
The bunnies live in Heaven. Then there’s the one with the axe who wanders about all over the place and Fluffy who identifies potential hosts.
Tubbs
Posted by snowgoose (# 4394) on
:
I have been on the Ship for a number of years now, though I read much more than I post. I lurked for quite a while before I signed up and even then (as I recall) didn't post immediately.
It had nothing to do with perceived "smugness and intellectual superiority"; if I had thought the place was smug I wouldn't have joined at all. I was just a bit nervous about jumping right in. When I did start posting, people were quite welcoming.
IME the Ship is no more in-crowdish than a lot of other boards, and less so than most long-standing ones. I'm in the fluffy bunny category (mostly Heaven, All Saints, and Circus) though, and it was quite some time before I braved the fires of Hell. I think they make it quite clear that Hell is not for the timid or inexperienced.
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by computergeek:
Actually, it wasn't Martin PC. I realised he was being serious, although I am too dim to understand bis point so decided it was best not to engage with him as I was not understanding what he was getting at and thought it was pointless pursuing it at a late hour. No, someone suggested that I should take myself and my reasonable question elsewhere as you guys are all too clever for me.
Maybe weshould have a Ship of Fools Inclusive Day for the thick people.
(my italics)
That feeling isn't unusual. The Ship is the one place on God's Green Earth where I don't consider myself an Alpha (or at least a Beta+) Dog. I work with some very smart, legally trained, engineers and scientists but the folk here are smarter and sharper still. Through persistence on my part and avoidance of topics that are way beyond me, I've grown to love this place and learn a lot from it.
Ditto. I have an LLB honours degree plus post-grad professional qualifications and yet there are people here who can run rings around me faster than you can say 'graduate dunce'.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's true that Mormons tend to get driven away by certain long-time members who have had very bad experiences with Mormonism. But I can't think of any other group that gets that treatment.
Muslims
On the Ship?
Tubbs
Yes - I remember two - often sticking up for the true teaching about jihad or against the Barnabas Fund.
I have twice been called to Hell for supporting them.
Posted by Mary Beth (# 92) on
:
I'm one of those long time members, mostly non-poster.
I signed up just after Hurricane Joanne and have been blessed by this site for many years, now. Blessed by real life friendships and an ever increasing growth in my life - spiritual and secular (although I don't see much separation there).
It's hard to say why I don't post. A basic shy personality, somebody always posts what I want to say in a much clearer manner, the speed on which these conversations move, etc. etc.
This board is of such value to us lurkers, too, Just because we don't respond verbally doesn't mean we don't laugh, learn, pray, and cry with you all. I still miss Erin so much.
Anyway, maybe in another 10-15 years I'll make shipmate, but just know that I'm loving and praying for you as we are sailing on.
Mary Beth
Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on
:
Mary Beth - that is a very beautiful and loving post. Thank you.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's true that Mormons tend to get driven away by certain long-time members who have had very bad experiences with Mormonism. But I can't think of any other group that gets that treatment.
Muslims
On the Ship?
Tubbs
Yes - I remember two - often sticking up for the true teaching about jihad or against the Barnabas Fund.
I have twice been called to Hell for supporting them.
Had a look through the threads in Oblivion and found Plato’s Cat
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000723;p=1
I think he/she is still around, though.
Posted by Kyzyl (# 374) on
:
I've been here 12 years and still do not have 500 posts. But I'll tell you, I'm on the ship just about every day reading,listening, watching (whoa, that sounds pretty creepy!) I can say that in my experience this is a far, far healthier place than most of the sites I frequent.
Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mary Beth:
I'm one of those long time members, mostly non-poster.
I signed up just after Hurricane Joanne and have been blessed by this site for many years, now. Blessed by real life friendships and an ever increasing growth in my life - spiritual and secular (although I don't see much separation there).
It's hard to say why I don't post. A basic shy personality, somebody always posts what I want to say in a much clearer manner, the speed on which these conversations move, etc. etc.
This board is of such value to us lurkers, too, Just because we don't respond verbally doesn't mean we don't laugh, learn, pray, and cry with you all. I still miss Erin so much.
Anyway, maybe in another 10-15 years I'll make shipmate, but just know that I'm loving and praying for you as we are sailing on.
Mary Beth
That reminds me ... If you look in Glory, you'll see Ruth W2. Ruth never posted, but she read the Ship avidly and talked about it fondly regularly to friends and family.
After she died, her sister got in touch as she assumed that as she'd talked about the Ship so often, she'd be well known and have a post to rival Chorister's or Ken's. But no. God bless Ruth and everyone like her.
Tubbs
[ 20. September 2013, 18:20: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
Posted by S. Bacchus (# 17778) on
:
I hope the comments of a relative n00b will be accepted in the spirit in which they were intended, so let me say this.
The Ship is probably the most rigourously vigourously moderated board I've come across. Sometimes I've thought a a lighter touch wouldn't go amiss, but I think on the whole that this level of moderation keeps the discussion from degenerating to the depths of hell, which is all too common online.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
After browsing for some time I plucked up the courage to register and post, knowing that I was nowhere near the level of intellectual prowess of a lot of posters, but appreciative of their ability and ready to keep learning. I throw in my two penneth, usually thoughts in flight, and often the conversation carries on above my head or it tails off and everyone moves on to the next thread that takes their fancy. That's OK. It's good.
I hope I don't come across as smug or superior. In fact, the honesty here gives me to think that someone would tell me so in no uncertain terms if I do. I didn't come here so that people would be nice to me. It's not about that - although the threads on All Saints show that there are some very caring and kind posters on this Ship. It's about the topic in hand. If it does get personal, Hell is the right place for the heat, if it gets boring it dies, if it gets never-ending and circular it goes to dead horses.
I hope and pray that the Ship carries on sailing. As others have said, I see more different views here to mull over than I could find anywhere else.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
That feeling isn't unusual. The Ship is the one place on God's Green Earth where I don't consider myself an Alpha (or at least a Beta+) Dog. I work with some very smart, legally trained, engineers and scientists but the folk here are smarter and sharper still. Through persistence on my part and avoidance of topics that are way beyond me, I've grown to love this place and learn a lot from it.
Ditto. I have an LLB honours degree plus post-grad professional qualifications and yet there are people here who can run rings around me faster than you can say 'graduate dunce'.
and since we're going there, for the record and for the people who feel this place is too intellectually rigorous or something - join in. do your best. get sand kicked in your face and keep getting up again and scrapping on. We're not all highly qualified.
I hold my own around here. I'm a high school drop out.
it's all about your attitude, your openness, and your willingness to learn.
Posted by Alicïa (# 7668) on
:
I just lost a longer post because I didn't have it saved in a notepad! Shorter version is that I love the ship, lurking or contributing (and I have gone through phases with both) and I would just say to anyone join in and I think you will find it is less intimidating than you think. Sure there are clever people here. Clever doesn't always mean right but the best thing about this community is that there is so much to learn from each other.
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
:
I'd like to echo what a lot of people have said; I've never found anything on the Ship that I'd call "intellectual smugness" - if I had it would probably have scared me witless. The boards I frequent the most - All Saints, Heaven and the Circus - are about as scary as a big cuddly teddy-bear, which suits me just fine.
I've only met a couple of Shipmates in Real Life™ (one of whom is my husband), but I regard those with whom I have contact as friends, and one can't really have too many of those. I like the feeling of having the goodwill of people on the other side of the planet whom you've never met, whether it's condolences on a bereavement or expressions of delight when something good happens.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
and since we're going there, for the record and for the people who feel this place is too intellectually rigorous or something - join in. do your best. get sand kicked in your face and keep getting up again and scrapping on. We're not all highly qualified.
I hold my own around here. I'm a high school drop out.
it's all about your attitude, your openness, and your willingness to learn.
Well I had no idea until just now that Comet was a high school dropout, and it doesn't change how I feel about her. She is (as should be obvious to any but the blindest of bats) a valued member here, and when she posts, it's almost always worth reading.
There are arguments where people who are very erudite are arguing things that may be beyond your (generic) frame of reference. That may mean you're better off reading and not jumping into the argument there. I tend to stay out of arguments that require a knowledge, say, of Bultmann and Barth and all that crowd. But that doesn't make that thread intellectually smug. Just not one I'm likely to contribute much to. The ship is all things to all people, or at least a goodly number of people, but that doesn't mean that every single thread has to be all things to all people.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
There are those very long-time shipmates who read often, but do not post. There also are a lot who post on the Caption board, whose names you never see elsewhere.
Posted by Plique-à-jour (# 17717) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Computergeek not only crashed the party, they'd been ejected from it once before. That said, it's an interesting discussion and worth continuing.
Tubbs
Styx host
Thought it was him.
Before I got to this post where you confirmed my suspicion, this is what I had put my suspicion aside to write:
--
quote:
Originally posted by computergeek:
No, someone suggested that I should take myself and my reasonable question elsewhere as you guys are all too clever for me.
That's not what I said. What I said was intended to be helpful, harsh as it may have sounded. If you are a new, orthodox Protestant believer, a lot of what people will say here with the intention of being helpful isn't going to be helpful at all. When you're new, you want a list of what you're expected to believe, I know; you want firm statements of faith, which is what you explicitly asked for. Many people here are not going to give you that, and wouldn't think they should.
The way I put it was prejudical. My defence is that A: it seemed like the right language for where you seemed to me to be coming from, and B:
--
- how I was going to phrase B I can't remember. It was going to be about the discussion I'd just come from when I posted my advice, followed by an apology. I'm posting this fragment now because the apology was, in any case, going to have been more to the community rather than to the ostensibly hurt computergeek, whose misrepresentation of my post I thought petty, even assuming good faith.
I'm sorry I didn't express my concern in more temperate language.
[ 21. September 2013, 06:08: Message edited by: Plique-à-jour ]
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
and since we're going there, for the record and for the people who feel this place is too intellectually rigorous or something - join in. do your best. get sand kicked in your face and keep getting up again and scrapping on. We're not all highly qualified.
I hold my own around here. I'm a high school drop out.
it's all about your attitude, your openness, and your willingness to learn.
Well I had no idea until just now that Comet was a high school dropout, and it doesn't change how I feel about her. She is (as should be obvious to any but the blindest of bats) a valued member here, and when she posts, it's almost always worth reading.
thanks for that. to be fair, I'm also a college drop out. no staying power, me. BUT - I have a love of learning, which led me here and kept me here, even if I have no diploma to my name.
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I hold my own around here. I'm a high school drop out. it's all about your attitude, your openness, and your willingness to learn.
Hmm. You lack neither brains, nor confidence, nor vocabulary. Sorry, but you will not work as example for the Ship including the mentally poor...
Now that leo has mentioned it though, it is interesting that we have quite a few atheists, but not many Muslims. Or Jews. Or Hindus. Or Jains. Or anything other than ... Buddhists. This place is reflecting a particular slice of Western society. It's not quite "white middle class", but something rather like it, I suspect. Perhaps some Shipmate with sociological credentials can be more precise about that.
I'm not sure that that appeal can or should be widened though. The Internet is a rather merciless to ideals that do not correspond to people's habits.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
IIRC, when I was a lurker, or shortly after I joined, there was a survey of Shipmates academic qualifications. I was below average with degrees in law and history but no post-grad qualifications.
I'm a bit hazy about the details though, anyone else remember this?
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
It could have easily been a Circus poll. I don't remember it.
I remember a survey of religious affiliation at one point, of both contributers and lurkers on the boards and for the main magazine. Though I can't find that at the moment (I'm sure it isn't my memory playing up, though there is a possibility it is) but there was (naturally) a majority of people reading the Ship from a Christian background but a large minority of atheists and agnostics (many with Church backgrounds) and other religions. Quite a high proportion of people employed in the church (minister etc)
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by computergeek:
Maybe weshould have a Ship of Fools Inclusive Day for the thick people.
Thick person puts hand up.
I have dyslexia and ADHD, I'm very articulate verbally but find it hard to communicate in print. My education goes as far as Postgraduate Diploma but I found that incredibly difficult and challenging. Many people here are way, way above my head intellectually.
I have always felt included here.
Quite often my posts get completely ignored - but that's because I've jumped in with an irrelevant comment, not because people are deliberately ignoring me.
Posted by roybart (# 17357) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I have always felt included here.
Quite often my posts get completely ignored - but that's because I've jumped in with an irrelevant comment, not because people are deliberately ignoring me. [/QB]
I've had a similar experience.
Often, I come upon a new thread when it is already full of posts. Sometimes the thread has already whittled itself down to a few posters (I think of them fondly as "the usual suspects") engaged in a rather passionate give-and-take among themselves.
I appreciate the high level of intellectual commitment that many of the most active posters -- in Purgatory for instance -- bring to this Board. Even more, I love the intensity, sheer concentration that many members devote to the topics discussed here.
There are a multitude of ways to define one's position on the Ship. After a few missteps in the beginning, I arrived at a pattern of adjustment that works for me: read, think, check out links if it seems desirable, go to my book shelves and to Google, all the while debating internally. Then post only if I find that the thread has helped me to a new level of understanding about what is being discussed. Then I jump in, make my point, and quickly jump out.
The Ship works on so many different levels. Thanks to the frequent posters -- some brilliant, only a few "thick," but mostly in-between -- who keep providing the content (and the sense that this stuff really IS important) that makes it worth while for the rest of us to keep coming back.
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by computergeek:
Maybe weshould have a Ship of Fools Inclusive Day for the thick people.
Thick person puts hand up.
I have dyslexia and ADHD, I'm very articulate verbally but find it hard to communicate in print. My education goes as far as Postgraduate Diploma but I found that incredibly difficult and challenging. Many people here are way, way above my head intellectually.
I have always felt included here.
It was because of a post on the Ship, back in 2009, that I first suspected I was on the autism spectrum. Within two years I had a diagnosis from a specialist clinical psychologist confirming that suspicion. So coming to the Ship has made a significant change in my life. And I enjoy the freedom of hearing Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, and various Protestant standpoints - right across the theological spectrum. I don't know whether I feel included, but I do feel intellectually stimulated (and yes, I do have post-grad qualifications - philosophy).
Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kyzyl:
I've been here 12 years and still do not have 500 posts.
You were the Ship's longest standing apprentice for a veeeeeerrrrrry long time. I think I remember standing ovations on the occasion of your 51st post ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
With Ariston running close, I think. Not too many greybeards around anymore. Well Moo's not a greybeard, but...
That's blown my chances of becoming a host.
Posted by Dal Segno (# 14673) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by computergeek:
No, someone suggested that I should take myself and my reasonable question elsewhere as you guys are all too clever for me.
That's not what I said.
FWIW, that's not what I said either. No-one suggested that we guys are "all too clever". We did suggest that you seek support elsewhere, rather than depending completely on the Ship. That seems to be a supportive suggestion rather than a problem...
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
We're not all highly qualified.
I hold my own around here. I'm a high school drop out.
it's all about your attitude, your openness, and your willingness to learn.
...and I would bet that most shipmates wouldn't survive an evening trying to do Comet's real-life job.
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
... Thick person [with] Postgraduate Diploma ...
Oh dear - with nothing but (moderately decent) school qualifications and a secretarial certificate that puts me somewhere between "amoeba" and "idiot".
To quote one of the Peers from Iolanthe:
quote:
I've nothing against brains; I have a great deal of respect for brains. I often wish I had some myself.
I still don't feel intimidated posting on the Ship - maybe I ought to try Purgatory some time ... ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Posted by luvanddaisies (# 5761) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
... Thick person [with] Postgraduate Diploma ...
Oh dear - with nothing but (moderately decent) school qualifications and a secretarial certificate that puts me somewhere between "amoeba" and "idiot".
Why? There are people with doctorates who are frankly a bit stupid, and there are people who didn't finish school who are very bright. Level of educational qualification does not necessarily equate to level of intelligence.
Posted by JFH (# 14794) on
:
I think there is plenty to say about the Ship, not least as someone once said, it contains several different communities. As mainly a lurker, I can't claim to know those communities well or be a part of them, but whatever my two cents may be worth in times of intellectual inflation, here they are.
I think in some ways (possibly mainly in the discussion-based forums) the Ship has an almost libertarian expectation of each individual to hold their own. Act at your own peril. Rules are given, it's your individual responsibity to know them. Add to the discussion or stay silent. If you disagree with something, stand your ground or concede defeat. Expect brutal honesty and very skilled wordsmithery from your opponents, and to be able to oppose that, or face the consequences. It's your own fault if you let words get to you, but you are given a chance to use pretty much whatever words you please in an attempt to get to others as well (in Hell). Be prepared to face the consequences of whatever you do, and thus make sure to calculate them before-hand.
I think that in some regards, these (and other principles I've missed out on) set up an ideal type of a poster with certain characteristics:
- Self-confident and secure in themselves
- Very sharp wits and far-reaching sense of the consequences of one's thoughts and words
- A highly functional ability to put thoughts into words accurately
- An ability to wield humour well
Whereas people may differ from this type to certain degrees, I think those that lack too much of some of these characteristics may feel that the Ship does not give them a fair battleground. This seems similar to how people lacking certain basic skills (such as adequate education or social capital, et c) will indeed be left behind in a libertarian society. I may be projecting my own issues unto others here, and I apologise if I do. Still, I think the Ship can trigger strong emotional kickbacks in people who disagree but lack these essential means for the Ship arena to stand their ground. (For me personally this emotional kickback has meant triggering an attempt to grow in several areas where I've perceived myself to be broken for many reasons. Still, it has been a painful ride at times, and it's possible that the ship could provide somewhat more gentleness in order to alleviate the pain while adaptation is happening.)
I am not sure what other ways there could be or which kind of social structure is optimal for a board, but I think we should be aware of the consequences of this one, if it is there. Some people do get alienated, but it's possible that it is necessary. Personally, I still think that should be considered unfortunate, although I may be throwing pearls before swine. I'm losing perspective of the consequences of my words, and will according to my own logic leave the space open to others.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
Thank you JFH, I found that quite thought provoking.
Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mary Beth:
This board is of such value to us lurkers, too, Just because we don't respond verbally doesn't mean we don't laugh, learn, pray, and cry with you all. I still miss Erin so much.
I don't post much any more, but I still read the boards nearly every day. I definitely agree with this
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
We're not all highly qualified.
I hold my own around here. I'm a high school drop out.
it's all about your attitude, your openness, and your willingness to learn.
...and I would bet that most shipmates wouldn't survive an evening trying to do Comet's real-life job.
possibly not, but I have to be honest- I'm not currently tending bar, I'm teaching and coaching Drama and Debate. whole different skillset, but with a lot of overlap!
Which leads me to address JFH's points, which are excellent.
I agree, not all Ship Veterans came here possessing all the skills it takes to thrive in this environment. I didn't. My first couple of months here, I was driven to tears by what some people said. I was lacking the confidence piece. But the stubbornness piece I have in abundance so I stuck around and learned. I did the typical rookie thing and posted my (lack of) knowledge all over the boards, and had my ass handed to me more than once. So then I learned to shut up and LISTEN.
Now I post in places I have something to contribute, and just read my way through in those areas I don't. and it's been a huge learning experience.
if the current me were to go back in time to the me of September 2006 (hey, 7 years!) I'd probably bow out of some of the things I chimed in about. I'd probably admit my own ignorance more readily when challenged. But I'd also challenge some of the bullshit that was spouted at me, that I took at face value because it came from what the Quakers would call a "weighty member" of the community. I've gotten much better at parsing the actual knowledge from the smug bullshit.
Yesterday my debate team and I had our big brainstorming session for our next debate resolution. I realized, standing there and leading the discussion, that at least 75% of the skills I bring as a coach and instructor of debate come from the Ship. And those skills are strong. But I got them from here. from shutting up, watching, and learning.
So I'd hope that new folks who show up and feel they are drowning in our system here would watch and learn and keep getting back up and fighting on. it's worth it.
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