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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Calling Mudfrog and any other warmongering Christ deniers to Hell
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Welcome to Hell Mudfrog, brothers (because there will be NO woman here by invitation, why is that?).
I'd have been calling myself only a year or so ago. So you have my inclusive sympathy. Empathy even. But it's time to put away childish, deranged, incoherent, psychotic things.
The incoherence shown on the Remembrance and Pacifism threads breathtakingly surpasses my humble own in a totally different category, i.e. in unreason which perhaps could be best summed up by:
"If yore uh pacifist yoor uh anti-Semite."
Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. Wilfully stupid.
Mudfrog. You seriously disappoint me. That's what I had to repress in Purgatory, twice.
Not here.
I say it again, justifying war EVER in ANY circumstance denies Christ by definition.
Is anti-Christ.
I got sick of doing it for over 50 years.
No more.
No more war.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
I say it again, justifying war EVER in ANY circumstance denies Christ by definition.
Yes, of course, you are absolutely right. If only we had been pacifists, it would have saved all that hassle trying to get one's head round pesky German grammar. It would have all come so naturally to us.
And that kindly Austrian gentleman would have been a wonderful Prime Minister, don't you think?
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Pacifism doesn't mean doing nothing. This is a common misconception among warmongering Christ deniers.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Am I reading this correctly? Is Martin accusing others of being incoherent?
This has to be the funniest thing I've seen in ages!
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Well what would you have done in WW2 that was pacifistic that would have prevented Germany from winning? Please be specific.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Well what would you have done in WW2 that was pacifistic that would have prevented Germany from winning? Please be specific.
What would you have done in 1st century Judea that was pacifistic that would have prevented Rome from winning? Please be specific.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Um, I'm not arguing for pacificism in all circumstances so why are you asking me for pacifistic action?
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Oh and btw I'm not really a Christian any more either.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Am I reading this correctly? Is Martin accusing others of being incoherent?
This has to be the funniest thing I've seen in ages!
But those who witness to Christ are often incoherent, as they have seen through the purposes of the world, and have been struck dumb by the risen Christ, and war-mongers are often polished and articulate, as they are seduced by the purposes of the world.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Well what would you have done in WW2 that was pacifistic that would have prevented Germany from winning? Please be specific.
I think this is kind of off topic, but the serious answer would have to do something about the British-German arms race in the 1910s, the lack of forethought and simply thinking at all, and the British wish to keep the Germans less powerful than them, and the German pigheadedness about their superiority that originated probably in the 1830s or something.
The other point to make is that any time satan or Hitler is brought into it, we're at a standstill of coherence and discussion. About someone who crazily thinks their flatus is afflatus.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
But by 1939 it was to late for that. When the Nazis started invading, what would you have done to prevent them from winning that was pacifistic? I'm quite serious. No one ever has an answer for that for me, and I've asked other times this has come up on the ship. What would you do that would prevent the death camps but not be war? How would you pacifistcally stop them?
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Am I reading this correctly? Is Martin accusing others of being incoherent?
This has to be the funniest thing I've seen in ages!
As someone who once called Martin down here in frustration at his incoherence, I feel duty-bound to point out that in my view he has improved markedly since that time. Being ordered to comply with a readability index did wonders for him.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
I think your question misses the point, Nicolemr. Asking how pacifism could have achieved a violence-oriented goal in a short timeframe lures you into misunderstanding the philosophy. Essentially, it is the same as asking what possible studying could a student do minutes before an exam to accomplish the same kind of "success" that cheating could.
So, perhaps a meta-answer would have been for the Allies to have convincingly demonstrated the socio-economic benefits of being peaceful. Instead of having spent decades rubbing Germany's face in the glory of what they had won through violence and swagger.
And, to be clear: I am not a pacifist. Just not for the brainless reasoning you're trotting out.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Well what would you have done in WW2 that was pacifistic that would have prevented Germany from winning? Please be specific.
What would you have done in 1st century Judea that was pacifistic that would have prevented Rome from winning? Please be specific.
From winning what?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Am I reading this correctly? Is Martin accusing others of being incoherent?
This has to be the funniest thing I've seen in ages!
But those who witness to Christ are often incoherent, as they have seen through the purposes of the world, and have been struck dumb by the risen Christ, and war-mongers are often polished and articulate, as they are seduced by the purposes of the world.
Where were you when Martin was warmongering incoherently? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
I think your question misses the point, Nicolemr. Asking how pacifism could have achieved a violence-oriented goal in a short timeframe lures you into misunderstanding the philosophy. Essentially, it is the same as asking what possible studying could a student do minutes before an exam to accomplish the same kind of "success" that cheating could.
Well, yes, but we have to start from where we are. I mean, if you were asked what would be a pacifist solution to the present-day Middle East, you couldn't just say "Well, we shouldn't have had thousands of years of ethnic rivalries and Western colonialism". Of course it would make it a lot easier if we hadn't. But we have.
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Indeed
Pacifism would work swimmingly if everybody was a Pacifist.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
"Peace in our time" anybody?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Pacifism would work if nations styling themselves as true followers of Christ actually did that. We might read Mohammed, Buddha, Krishna, Gitche Manitou and God knows who else for Christ.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Nations style themselves as true followers of Christ?
I don't even no what that second sentence means.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I don't even [know] what that second sentence means.
Oh good, it's not just me.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Indeed.
If adherents of nominally peaceful religions cannot even pretend to adhere to their own philosophies, it does not speak well for humans achieving peace. Just listen to the weasel words flow when you point out the commandment "Thou shalt no kill." or the verse “If anyone slays a person, it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.”
Pacifism is a laudable philosophy. Just not, seemingly, feasible for humans.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
I think your question misses the point, Nicolemr. Asking how pacifism could have achieved a violence-oriented goal in a short timeframe lures you into misunderstanding the philosophy. Essentially, it is the same as asking what possible studying could a student do minutes before an exam to accomplish the same kind of "success" that cheating could.
This. Or, what could a heavy smoker do after being diagnosed with inoperable cancer that would be just as effective as having quit 20 years ago...
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Antisocial Alto:
we have to start from where we are.
Which is fair enough. There are coherent and rational approaches to reducing the problems of the world that don't involve using guns. There are approaches that seek to increase justice, reduce poverty and hence bring true peace. They involve sacrifice. They aren't easy. Thay may seem to be unrealistic. They certainly aren't going to work overnight. But, are worthy of our respect.
But, of course, starting from where we are now means we can't just pick some arbitrary date in history and say "pacificism doesn't work because it wouldn't have stopped Hitler". Well, of course, if your arbitrarily chosen date was 1939 or 1936 you may be right. But, if instead you'd chosen 1910 things might be different. Imagine the world if in 1910 pacificism was a significant cultural influence in Europe and beyond. No European arms race, no macho "We're stronger than you" bullshit between European nations. Even if Archduke Ferdinand gets shot, we don't rapidly descend to millions of young men digging trenches in Flanders and getting slaughtered to capture or hold a few yards of mud. No Russian revolution, quite likely no Great Depression, better relationships between European nations and colonies with the possibility of a better transition to independence for them. No Hitler, no Stalin, no Cold War.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
Gosh Alan, youre wasted in EK. You should be in yon white hoose. Rewriting history with the benefit of 100 years of hindsight. So, er, clever?
[ 12. November 2013, 05:18: Message edited by: Francophile ]
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
My "what if" for pacificism in 1910 resulting in utopia now is fundamentally no different from the pacificism in 1939 resulting in us speaking German. Both arguments are equally invalid. But, this is Hell ... I don't need to set up a valid argument in defense of anything.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
But your version requires people being nice from 1910 down to today. The 1939 version is the opposite; it admits people aren't nice, and is thus far more realistic.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Indeed
Pacifism would work swimmingly if everybody was a Pacifist.
Or to put it another way, the world would be a very different place if firing the second shot was not seen as justified.
(PS I gather I'm allowed to continue belching greenhouse gases into the Earth's atmosphere as well, so long as I can point the finger at enough other people who are still doing it. It's a kind of reverse, negative form of Keeping Up With The Joneses.)
[ 12. November 2013, 06:50: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
As Christians, are you not called upon to do what is right?
Not what is easy, sensible or practical, not what keeps your family or country from harm; but what is right.
Hard to picture Jesus with a machine gun, no matter the cause.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
There was nothing good about going to war in WW2.
Of course it was evil.
It was just the least worst evil - as Hitler had to be stopped.
I'd be very happy to be German and speak German now - my son has moved there permanently and, to me, it is a far better place to live than the UK.
BUT, the Nazis had to be stopped - especially in Germany.
![[Frown]](frown.gif) No war is ever a good thing
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As Christians, are you not called upon to do what is right?
No. I don't believe this. I believe I am called to be in relationship with God, with human kind and all of creation.
This does not speak to a single Christian position on war.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But your version requires people being nice from 1910 down to today. The 1939 version is the opposite; it admits people aren't nice, and is thus far more realistic.
No, it is a "what if people in 1910 onwards were a wee bit nicer such that the macho attitudes in Europe at the time were softened to the point of not marching young men to the slaughter house at the first opportunity". Not nice, just a bit nicer.
I think realism says that people aren't perfectly good and nice, but also that they aren't irredeemably evil either. It's the simple black and white, good and evil, that's unrealistic.
To take a contemporary example. If we think of terrorists as pure evil then, of course, the temptation to "solve the problem" by the use of smart bombs is strong. On the other hand, think of them as people with often genuine concerns about how their families and friends have been mistreated then maybe a solution that seeks justice for those denied justice may have some legs. OK, in that example we probably need some military operations, but reluctantly to protect ourselves while working hard at the real solutions of justice and peace.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As Christians, are you not called upon to do what is right?
No. I don't believe this. I believe I am called to be in relationship with God, with human kind and all of creation.
This does not speak to a single Christian position on war.
Surely war is an almost total breakdown in relationships between groups of people. Therefore, if you consider yourself called to be in relationship with humankind that calling must result in some form of position on war. Surely?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
There are four main theories of war that can be argued from a Christian perspective. All the way from instigation to outright pacifism.
Me? I'm a pacifist. Unless you threaten my family kids or close friends. In that case, all bets are off.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Antisocial Alto:
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
I think your question misses the point, Nicolemr. Asking how pacifism could have achieved a violence-oriented goal in a short timeframe lures you into misunderstanding the philosophy. Essentially, it is the same as asking what possible studying could a student do minutes before an exam to accomplish the same kind of "success" that cheating could.
Well, yes, but we have to start from where we are. I mean, if you were asked what would be a pacifist solution to the present-day Middle East, you couldn't just say "Well, we shouldn't have had thousands of years of ethnic rivalries and Western colonialism". Of course it would make it a lot easier if we hadn't. But we have.
Or you could say, we'll have nothing to do with it. In fact, that is what I believe we should do.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Pommie Mick
Shipmate
# 12794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Am I reading this correctly? Is Martin accusing others of being incoherent?
This has to be the funniest thing I've seen in ages!
But those who witness to Christ are often incoherent, as they have seen through the purposes of the world, and have been struck dumb by the risen Christ, and war-mongers are often polished and articulate, as they are seduced by the purposes of the world.
Thank you for your erudite remarks.
Posts: 185 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2007
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I'd be very happy to be German and speak German now - my son has moved there permanently and, to me, it is a far better place to live than the UK.
I've always maintained that winning 2 World wars has done this country a shitload of no good .
-------------------------------------------
As for the pre-1910 Utopian myth when everyone was so ever so nice to each-other ? Yeah , "Myth" being the right word.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Pommie Mick
Shipmate
# 12794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As Christians, are you not called upon to do what is right?
No. I don't believe this. I believe I am called to be in relationship with God, with human kind and all of creation.
This does not speak to a single Christian position on war.
Surely war is an almost total breakdown in relationships between groups of people. Therefore, if you consider yourself called to be in relationship with humankind that calling must result in some form of position on war. Surely?
So Alan. Someone physically attacks your wife or child. What do you do?
Posts: 185 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2007
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
So Alan. Someone physically attacks your wife or child. What do you do?
This always strikes me as an odd question.
God can forgive us killing or attacking someone in self-defense. In the heat of the moment, no one really knows what they would do.
The issue is, as Christians I think we need to have peace and a Christlike attitude as our primary position to everything. We should not think to ourselves "Hmm I'll kill whoever breaks into my house." That's a sinful line of thought in my view. We should instead pray for safety and seek non-violent means to protect ourselves - burglar alarm, security system, neighborhood watch, self-defense methods that immobilize without death or serious harm, etc.
I have a problem not with a Christian who uses violence in an extreme situation, but one who plans to use it, thinks using it is a good idea, and even fantasizes about "getting to use my gun." I find this in total opposition to the Gospel.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
"Never lift a finger against a single person regardless of the circumstances" and "agree with going to war" are not the only options available.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
So Alan. Someone physically attacks your wife or child. What do you do?
Who knows?
But the question is a lot larger than just one of preparing for that sort of situation. Why would someone potentially attack my wife or children, or the spouse or children of anyone else? What can I do to remove the potential danger to my family and others before it reaches the point of someone being attacked?
Perhaps the potential attacker is mentally ill, and the system has failed to provide the help needed. Then, I should be campaigning and working towards improving help for those with mental illnesses. Perhaps he's homeless, a drug addict, an alcoholic, at the bottom of the ladder and feeling trodden down by society. Then, I should be working to help the homeless, addicts, those society rejects - and, working to change society so that they are not rejected but welcomed and cared for.
I should be proactive in changing society for the better, helping individuals in need and lifting them out of whatever hole they find themselves in, restoring dignity and self worth. So that the number of people who might find themselves driven to a state where they may want to hurt another is reduced, and the chances of that person being attacked being someone I love consequently reduced. I should be, I'm not.
Pacificism at it's best is not just a refusal to fight. It's a positive commitment to work for true peace, justice and reconciliation such that no one has to fight. And, IMO, that's an awful lot harder and takes a good deal more courage and strength of character than many people want to give pacifists credit for.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
Someone says they will shoot your wife/child unless you shoot an innocent third party. What do you do?
You can make up hypotheticals until the cows come home. That doesn't make pacifism wrong...
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As Christians, are you not called upon to do what is right?
Not what is easy, sensible or practical, not what keeps your family or country from harm; but what is right.
Hard to picture Jesus with a machine gun, no matter the cause.
I don't think this helps, to be honest. Though it's a fair enough place to start from. You appear to be saying it's not right to keep people from harm?
Let's try this. Is it right to protect the widow and the orphan? Is it right to permit evil to flourish at the expense of innocent others? Is it right to lay down one's life for one's fellows - albeit in the context of fighting fatally against others in order to do so? The Old Testament says 'Don't kill'. But how is one to protect and defend and maintain the rightness we're commended to do in observing justice and self-sacrifice, when the 'don't kill' value is rendered valueless by the enemy of what is good?
You appear to be saying, in effect, that one person's right action in refusing to assist in defending through violence the assaulted person, is more important than - and a superior 'rightness' to - an innocent person's 'rightness' to remain alive or at least unviolated.
It is right to turn your other cheek when someone is hitting you. What you do when the cheek belongs to someone else, isn't commented upon. Though one might ask was Jesus throwing that particular saying out into a vacuum-sealed pocket; or did he have any practical contexts in mind? Proverbs tells us it's better to sit on the roof than put up with a nagging wife; but presumably if there's a thunder-storm and you're in danger of becoming the lightning conductor, it might be better, on that occasion, to put up with a bit of nagging than die a stupid, needless death.
Even God's - and Christ's - philosophy of 'right' doesn't appear to be that clinically coherent. Not in a world full of sin.
I can't imagine Jesus with a machine-gun either. But then I can't imagine him doing any number of things within any number of vastly different contexts; standing for Parliament, working nine to five in an insurance office, becoming the next Archbishop of Canterbury/Pope/Dalai Lama, flogging used cars.
He never instructed the soldiers of the oppressing powers to cease their occupation of Israel; he told them to be satisfied with their wages and not to illegally use their military influence to extort from the populace. He did prevent the murder of a woman caught in adultery; but he was invited - no doubt as a kind of test to his ability - to adjudicate. What he would've done if her murder had been carried out in front of his face without such a reasonable opportunity for him to intervene is not even guessable. We do know that he rather un-pacifically disturbed some animal-hawkers and money-changers because a) they were in 'God's house' and b) he was angry.
I personally believe that war is evil, end of. But I also believe that as crapped up human beings in a crapped up world we sometimes have to make the choice between allowing the big fucking evil that threatens what is good or innocent or right; and implementing the lesser evil to stop that happening. If God wanted his children to make flaw-free decisions resulting in immaculate outcomes, we wouldn't be living the lives he's placed us in, or living in the world he compels us to share. As it is we take what Christ gives us and allow it to transform us, so we in turn can transform - to the best of our ability - whatever shit-hole situation we find ourselves in. Bonhoeffer is, to my mind, the perfect example of what happens, and what to do in a lose-lose situation of this sort.
Christ's parables and teaching do not, in my opinion, give any fixed frame of reference for whether war, per se, is something his followers should or shouldn't do. If conscripted what would Jesus have done? We don't actually know. We can guess, based on our own self-referencing at the psychology of Jesus. But that's it.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Pacificism at it's best is not just a refusal to fight. It's a positive commitment to work for true peace, justice and reconciliation such that no one has to fight. And, IMO, that's an awful lot harder and takes a good deal more courage and strength of character than many people want to give pacifists credit for.
I think this is perfectly legitimate, Alan. And I, for one, would certainly concede that this stance takes a lot of courage and strength. And I would support the right of those wishing to exercise it. But it doesn't, in my opinion, acquit the pacifist from their shared responsibility in the wrong that is permitted to happen, because of their insistence in doing the right thing about refraining from violence in defence of others.
The pacifist's decision to 'rightfully' refrain from war, has consequences which can be as injurious and lethal, as the aggressor's infringement on the right of others to live peacefully. There is no neutrality under such a circumstance.
In fact, there is no single 'right thing' possible, at all. Only a set of variables on a spectrum of good.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I personally believe that war is evil, end of. But I also believe that as crapped up human beings in a crapped up world we sometimes have to make the choice between allowing the big fucking evil that threatens what is good or innocent or right; and implementing the lesser evil to stop that happening.
The part I cannot understand is where war is seen as the lesser evil. Even World War 2, possibly the best example of a "just war" in history, killed far more people than the evil it was ostensibly fought to prevent. So was it really the lesser evil? Is the death of one innocent really more important than the deaths of ten conscripts?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
And somehow *not* fighting Stalin directly was seen as the lesser evil compared with letting him get on with his own slaughter...
Rightly so. The slaughter had we fought against Stalin would have been far greater than the one he managed to cause on his own.
Isn't that what "lesser evil" means? If there's going to be a slaughter either way, choose the one that costs fewer lives?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
Yeah, my point was the same as yours I think - a certain arbitrariness about which wars we do fight and which we don't, and a consideration of total numbers of killed or wounded rarely coming into it.
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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