Ship of Fools: Idiosyncratic Hymn Tunes

Thread: Idiosyncratic Hymn Tunes Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

Has anyone else had that feeling that a certain tune *is* a hymn, but no-one else seems to know it?

For me, the most extreme example is FRANCK (as in Peter, the one that is 7.7.7.7), which I think is "For the Beauty of the Earth". After someone pointed out to me that that hymn is generally sung to DIX (which for me is so strongly "As with Gladness" that I think it's weird using that tune other than on the Epiphany), I checked a pile of hymnals, and only one even had FRANCK.

Anyone else run into similar issues?

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

I confess that at first glance, I thought that this thread was to be about idiotic hymns... [Killing me]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Every single URC has its own set of "correct" hymn tunes for hymns. There is a lot of overlap, but there are always to idiosyncratic choices.

I blame the metrical psalms for this.

Actually has an odd effect. Although I have sung traditional hymns far more often than choruses. If a hymn has a variety of tunes that different congregations use, I have difficulty recalling any tune for that hymn. I do not have this problem with modern praise songs as they only have one tune.

Jengie

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

We have real problems with tunes in our church. It is both Baptist and URC, and the URC elements are both Presbyterian (with a strong Scottish emphasis) and Congregational. The organist is a historic Congregationalist.

There are frequent debates about what the "correct" tune is - sometimes decided by which of our three books we are using on a particular day. Some folk will say that "such and such" is the "only possible" tune while others will claim that it is unknown.

As far as "For the beauty of the earth" is concerned, we usually use "England's Lane" but have been known to have "Dix" or "Lucerna Laudionae".

Our organist likes "Duke Street" for "Jesus shall reign" - to me it is always "Fight the good fight". My Anglican heritage sets "Jesus shall reign" to "Truro", while many Baptists go for "Rimington".

And don't even start on the three possible tunes to "Love divine" or the four for "O Jesus, I have promised" ....

[ 03. September 2013, 20:11: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

England's Lane is clearly the only correct tune for "For the beauty of the Earth". [Two face]

Idiosyncratic is when you sing ATB&B to the tune of Puff the Magic Dragon.

Moving north has introduced me to the delights of "I heard the voice of Jesus say" sung to Rowan Tree rather than Kingsfold, and yet another tune for "Just as I am".

Being unobservant, for many years the Passion Chorale was just the tune for "We come as guests invited", and it was only when someone pointed it out that I realised the association with Passiontide and "O Sacred head sore wounded".

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Four tunes for Praise to the holiest too.

As for Let all the world in every corner sing I know that one is meant to prefer Luckington but I have a hankering for Universal Praise (as in the old EH).

My finest hour (!) as a young organist was arriving to play for a neighbouring parish: asked the vicar which tunes they used and he replied "we always sing the best".

So I played all five hymns to tunes other than those either he or the choir were expecting.

Nice man - I still got the fee [Smile]

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Our organist likes "Duke Street" for "Jesus shall reign" - to me it is always "Fight the good fight".

I tried fighting the good fight for SHEPTON-BEAUCHAMP earlier this year. Apparently I was idiosyncratic for that one too.

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And don't even start on the three possible tunes to "Love divine" or the four for "O Jesus, I have promised" ....

So that's:
a) three of the correct [Smile]

tune MORIAH, the popular tune BLAENWERN, the High-Churchy LOVE DIVINE (Stainer), and that weird American tune BEECHER
b) four of the guilty pleasure HATHEROP CASTLE, the boring WOLVERCOTE, the slightly too American ANGELS' STORY, the sadly-neglected ARCADELT and OFFERTORIUM, and the only tune some vicars know in that meter THORNBURY.

Which all goes to show that some hymns have far too many tunes...

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Four tunes for Praise to the holiest too.

CHORUS ANGELORUM, RICHMOND, BILLING, and (???) HACKNEY (ST MARY'S)?

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
My finest hour (!) as a young organist was arriving to play for a neighbouring parish: asked the vicar which tunes they used and he replied "we always sing the best".

So I played all five hymns to tunes other than those either he or the choir were expecting.

Nice man - I still got the fee

I'm sure if anyone would pay me to abuse a poor organ, similar results would ensue.

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
and yet another tune for "Just as I am".

Any idea which one? AGNUS DEI? TANYMANOD?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Moving north has introduced me to the delights of "I heard the voice of Jesus say" sung to Rowan Tree rather than Kingsfold.

No, no: "Vox Dilecti"!!!

quote:

Being unobservant, for many years the Passion Chorale was just the tune for "We come as guests invited".

What about "Sally Garden"?

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

perein

Other tune for Praise to the Holiest is Gerontius

On YouTube there is a particularly grisly version (organist wearing boxing gloves) being played on the organ at Oystermouth.

Couple of years ago was subbing for a mate and the PP asked for "something different" if possible for that evening's hymns: treated them to the delights of the pink-covered 20th Century Hymns (published 1958) tune for Through all the changing scenes of life - its in beguine tempo.. [Snigger]

It grows on you ...

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pererin:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And don't even start on ... the four for "O Jesus, I have promised" ....
So that's:
The guilty pleasure HATHEROP CASTLE, the boring WOLVERCOTE, the slightly too American ANGELS' STORY, the sadly-neglected ARCADELT and OFFERTORIUM, and the only tune some vicars know in that meter THORNBURY.

You forgot "Day of Rest" (I don't know three of the ones you do mention!)

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pererin:

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Four tunes for Praise to the holiest too.
CHORUS ANGELORUM, RICHMOND, BILLING, and (???) HACKNEY (ST MARY'S)?

.

It is common meter, how many do you want?

Jengie

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Four tunes for Praise to the holiest too.

As for Let all the world in every corner sing I know that one is meant to prefer Luckington but I have a hankering for Universal Praise (as in the old EH).

My finest hour (!) as a young organist was arriving to play for a neighbouring parish: asked the vicar which tunes they used and he replied "we always sing the best".

So I played all five hymns to tunes other than those either he or the choir were expecting.

Nice man - I still got the fee

Way back in the days of the Hymnal 1940 I was subbing for a colleague one Sunday. (As many of you know, in that hymnal the numbers referred to the texts, so that a hymn with 2 tunes had both numbered the same.)
Anyway, this particular parish did not list tune names in the service leaflet; there was no choir that August Sunday; and the rector was nowhere to be found before the service began.
Came the hymn before the sermon (don't now recall what it was). I played through the first tune for an intro, and the rector from on high in the pulpit, turned and said loudly 'We sing the other tune here.' So I turned the page and played the other tune, but they didn't sing (much if at all).
(I got my fee, too!)

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pererin:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Our organist likes "Duke Street" for "Jesus shall reign" - to me it is always "Fight the good fight".
I tried fighting the good fight for SHEPTON-BEAUCHAMP earlier this year. Apparently I was idiosyncratic for that one too.

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And don't even start on the three possible tunes to "Love divine" or the four for "O Jesus, I have promised" ....
So that's:
a) three of the correct tune MORIAH, the popular tune BLAENWERN, the High-Churchy LOVE DIVINE (Stainer), and that weird American tune BEECHER
b) four of the guilty pleasure HATHEROP CASTLE, the boring WOLVERCOTE, the slightly too American ANGELS' STORY, the sadly-neglected ARCADELT and OFFERTORIUM, and the only tune some vicars know in that meter THORNBURY.

Which all goes to show that some hymns have far too many tunes...

BEECHER isn't weird, particularly, but it belongs to 'There's a Wideness in God's Mercy.' 'Love Divine for USA Episcopalians has to be HYFRYDOL, lest someone think your a Methodist!

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Four tunes for Praise to the holiest too.

As for Let all the world in every corner sing I know that one is meant to prefer Luckington but I have a hankering for Universal Praise (as in the old EH).

My finest hour (!) as a young organist was arriving to play for a neighbouring parish: asked the vicar which tunes they used and he replied "we always sing the best".

So I played all five hymns to tunes other than those either he or the choir were expecting.

Nice man - I still got the fee

Quite. A bit like last Sunday when we had five well known tunes - Sandys (as in 'Teach me my God and King'); Melcombe (as in 'New every morning'); Repton (as in 'Dear Lord and Father'); Rockingham (as in 'When I survey') and Woodlands (as in 'Lift up your hearts') all to different words. The organist afterwards muttered that he felt as if he had just been in an episode of 'I'm sorry I haven't a clue' ...
[Roll Eyes]

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Are we allowed to comment on hymn tunes that have the wrong words put to them?

Just this Sunday gone our recessional was... something or other sung to the tune of 'He who would valiant be'. It was very strange, having to sing some modern lyrics with refrains along the lines of 'We are God's people' when I wanted to belt out 'To be a pilgrim'.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

There exist some books of hymn texts that intentionally pair new texts to old hymn tunes.

Songs for the Cycle is one example, available through Church Publishing. There is a text for each of the Gospels of the 3-year cycle, paired with a 'familiar' hymn tune. (Of course, 'familiar' to one doesn't mean 'familiar' to all!)

A Hymn Tune Psalter offers Psalms set to common hymn tunes.

In my experience, many of the common pewfolk prefer this to having to learn a new tune every Sunday.

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
perein

Other tune for Praise to the Holiest is Gerontius

Oh yuck, *that* tune. Makes me almost want to stop trying to persuade people to ditch the other two for Chorus Angelorum. (The thoroughly obscure no-one's sung it to that tune for at least a century Hackney suits the "And in the garden secretly" verse rather nicely though — it wasn't a totally random CM tune!)

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Couple of years ago was subbing for a mate and the PP asked for "something different" if possible for that evening's hymns: treated them to the delights of the pink-covered 20th Century Hymns (published 1958) tune for Through all the changing scenes of life - its in beguine tempo.. It grows on you ...

You know I've just been downstairs bashing through some of the Church Light Music Group's finest now, don't you? [Smile]

(Thank goodness for digital pianos!)

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Are we allowed to comment on hymn tunes that have the wrong words put to them?

Yeah, although most of the time in my experience that is people trying to find English words to fit PANTYFEDWEN or BRYN MYRDDIN or one of those slightly too Welsh tunes.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
perein

Other tune for Praise to the Holiest is Gerontius

Oh, Lord in heaven, no.

The best tune for that is Newman.

[ 03. September 2013, 23:25: Message edited by: Fr Weber ]

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
BEECHER isn't weird, particularly, but it belongs to 'There's a Wideness in God's Mercy.' 'Love Divine for USA Episcopalians has to be HYFRYDOL, lest someone think your a Methodist!

Whilst I have no particular issue with Hydrofoil, surely it is only to be used when you can't be bothered learning another 8787D tune?

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :

Gracious rebel scratches her head in frustration. [Confused]

I've been directed to this thread, by someone who knows that I do have thoughts and opinions on hymn tunes. And I am familiar with hundreds if not thousands of tunes. And I probably would be able to hum along to at least half the tunes being discussed here.

My problem is though, that I have an almost complete inability to remember the names of tunes, so I don't have the correct vocabulary to intelligently follow the discussion, let alone contribute. If I could see the sheet music, or hear the tune, I would know what was being discussed, but failing that I think I'd better bow out of this thread!

I've been racking my brains to see which tune names I COULD actually name. I think I am fairly confident about Repton and Blaenworn (sp?), I also confidently know which tune is 'Deep Harmony' (because I specifically learnt it to 'When I Survey' in my youth), and I am sure there must be a few others. But apart from that this discussion may as well be taking place in a foreign language. (Which is really frustrating when I know the hymns and the tunes, just don't have the words to describe them, without humming!)

I wondered if I was unusual in this respect for people who know lots of hymns? [Confused]

[ 04. September 2013, 07:58: Message edited by: Gracious rebel ]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

No, It is quite a challenge to find a hymn or tune I do not know, as I have sung so many in so many circumstances.

For me to name them, well I may recognise one or two. However as hymns are not announced in the way:

"No 358, 'When I survey' Eucharist"

Therefore,we learn to recognise the tune by the opening line. Unfortunately, I can not sing a tune from the music so I could not even write the notes out. Give me a piano and a piece of music and I can make a good stab at picking out the melody.

Jengie

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

O For a Thousand Tongues must be sung to AZMON.
Love Divine, All Loves Excelling must be sung to BEECHER.

Of course, Ken (and others) will disagree with me on the first, and georgiaboy already has on the second. [Biased]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I will disagree with both! Clearly there are both Denominational and Pond differences at play here.

Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on :

'O Little Town of Bethlehem' is sung to St Louis in the USA but to Forest Green in England. St Louis was written for it and suits the mood better; Forest Green is too jaunty.

'Faith of Our Fathers' is sung to St Catherine in the USA but to Sawston in England. Again, St Catherine wins - but in England that tune is used for 'O Bread of Heaven, on Thee We Feed'.

Posted by Gwalchmai (# 17802) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pererin:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And don't even start on the three possible tunes to "Love divine" or the four for "O Jesus, I have promised" ....
So that's:
a) three of the correct tune MORIAH, the popular tune BLAENWERN, the High-Churchy LOVE DIVINE (Stainer), and that weird American tune BEECHER
b) four of the guilty pleasure HATHEROP CASTLE, the boring WOLVERCOTE, the slightly too American ANGELS' STORY, the sadly-neglected ARCADELT and OFFERTORIUM, and the only tune some vicars know in that meter THORNBURY.

Which all goes to show that some hymns have far too many tunes...

Would somebody please explain to the clergy that Thornbury really only fits "Thy hand O God has guided" - although the metre is that of a large number of hymns, the acclamation in the last line "One Church, one faith, one Lord" has a rhythm which does not occur in any other hymn.

Posted by Gwalchmai (# 17802) on :

Moving on to Christmas, "While Shepherds watched their flocks by night" can be sung to any number of tunes. So why do we always have to sing it to Wincehster Old, which is the dreariest tune of Christmas. It is a great pity beacuse the words are a brilliant paraphrase of Luke 2:8 ff.

A few years ago I bought a CD with various other tunes to While Shephers watched, which was a revelation.

The current ediition of The Oxford Book of Carols has a tune called Old Foster, which is apparently still sung in the Sheffield area - it sounds very Handelian. And one of the original tunes for this carol is Cranleigh, which was sung in church long before some Yorkshireman went out on Ilkley Moor without his hat. Lyngham (the best tune for O for a thousand tongues to sing, metioned above) also fits While Shepherds watched.

So please, ask your clergy and organists between now an Christmas, to change their tune.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Lyngham (the best tune for O for a thousand tongues to sing, metioned above) ...

Agreed - but very tiring if you sing all nineteen verses!

Just to be awkward, "Rejoice & Sing" perversely sets this to "University".

[ 04. September 2013, 13:33: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

This Anglo Catholic likes Lyngham for O for a K tongues.

Only time I've sung it in the last decade was at Walsingham as part of a procession of the Blessed Sacrament.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I will disagree with both! Clearly there are both Denominational and Pond differences at play here.

Me too - in fact I disagree with every assertion/suggestion made by the Americans on this thread, which perhaps just goes to show that familiarity and association are stronger than taste.

There are a number of hymns that are sung to different tunes and I feel a palpable sense of disappointment when the "wrong" one is played.

The one denominational difference that is most common is "Praise to the Holiest" which Anglicans always sing to Gerontius, and Roman Catholics to Newman.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
O For a Thousand Tongues must be sung to AZMON.
Love Divine, All Loves Excelling must be sung to BEECHER.

Of course, Ken (and others) will disagree with me on the first, and georgiaboy already has on the second.

Rank heresy! Azmon is a dirge... Lydia or Lyngham are much better and Love Divine - well Blaenwern or death! [Big Grin]

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Lyngham (the best tune for O for a thousand tongues to sing, metioned above) also fits While Shepherds watched.

I got to sing that combination last Christmas. It was wonderful.

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Lyngham (the best tune for O for a thousand tongues to sing, metioned above) ...
Agreed - but very tiring if you sing all nineteen verses!

I wonder when the last time was that these two verses were sung:

Awake from guilty nature’s sleep,
And Christ shall give you light,
Cast all your sins into the deep,
And wash the Æthiop white.

Harlots and publicans and thieves
In holy triumph join!
Saved is the sinner that believes
From crimes as great as mine.

quote:
Just to be awkward, "Rejoice & Sing" perversely sets this to "University".

And most American hymn books set it to AZMON. And to bring this post full circle, look what I've found...

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Would somebody please explain to the clergy that Thornbury really only fits "Thy hand O God has guided" - although the metre is that of a large number of hymns, the acclamation in the last line "One Church, one faith, one Lord" has a rhythm which does not occur in any other hymn.

[Shudder] "My ma! Stir and! My friend!"

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Talking of O Jesus I have promised, the only alternative tune that I can’t stand is that silly, whoopsy tune which now sounds a hopelessly 60s period piece. I can’t remember the name.

Otherwise I rather enjoy having unfamiliar tunes. But then I don’t take hymns very seriously.

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
This Anglo Catholic likes Lyngham for O for a K tongues.

Only time I've sung it in the last decade was at Walsingham as part of a procession of the Blessed Sacrament.

Silly me. I didn’t mean O for a K. I meant All hail the pow’r of Jesu’s name to the tune DIADEM.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Freudian slip there (Lyngham/ lingua)?

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
This Anglo Catholic likes Lyngham for O for a K tongues.

Only time I've sung it in the last decade was at Walsingham as part of a procession of the Blessed Sacrament.

Really? Even Mission Praise lists it as the default tune.

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Clavus:
'O Little Town of Bethlehem' is sung to St Louis in the USA but to Forest Green in England. St Louis was written for it and suits the mood better; Forest Green is too jaunty.

Interesting; this link has several comments from Americans saying they had never heard Forest Green and how much they prefer it. Certainly I wouldn't call FG "jaunty".

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Certainly I wouldn't call FG "jaunty".

Just about anything -- even "O Sacred Head" -- can be made to sound like a jump-rope jingle if the organist chooses to play it that way.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:

quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
O For a Thousand Tongues must be sung to AZMON.
Love Divine, All Loves Excelling must be sung to BEECHER.

Of course, Ken (and others) will disagree with me on the first, and georgiaboy already has on the second.
Rank heresy! Azmon is a dirge... Lydia or Lyngham are much better and Love Divine - well Blaenwern or death!

Azmon is NOT a dirge, if you play it correctly!

Although the Hymnal Commission dropped it from the 1982 Hymnal I still like Stracathro for that text.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:

quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
O For a Thousand Tongues must be sung to AZMON.
Love Divine, All Loves Excelling must be sung to BEECHER.

Of course, Ken (and others) will disagree with me on the first, and georgiaboy already has on the second.
Rank heresy! Azmon is a dirge... Lydia or Lyngham are much better and Love Divine - well Blaenwern or death!

Azmon is NOT a dirge, if you play it correctly!

Although the Hymnal Commission dropped it from the 1982 Hymnal I still like Stracathro for that text.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pererin:

quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Would somebody please explain to the clergy that Thornbury really only fits "Thy hand O God has guided" - although the metre is that of a large number of hymns, the acclamation in the last line "One Church, one faith, one Lord" has a rhythm which does not occur in any other hymn.
[Shudder] "My ma! Stir and! My friend!"

I shall never be able to sing that again without giggling.

Just like the "Hallelujahs" of "All creatures of our God and King" after you've seen "Mr. Bean goes to church".

Posted by scuffleball (# 16480) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

Our organist likes "Duke Street" for "Jesus shall reign" - to me it is always "Fight the good fight". My Anglican heritage sets "Jesus shall reign" to "Truro", while many Baptists go for "Rimington".

If you do west gallery you come to associate it with Gibraltar, where it is a standard startup tune alongside Come Sound his Praise Abroad to St Thomas.

Posted by scuffleball (# 16480) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
This Anglo Catholic likes Lyngham for O for a K tongues.

Only time I've sung it in the last decade was at Walsingham as part of a procession of the Blessed Sacrament.
Really? Even Mission Praise lists it as the default tune.

The NEH and Common Praise (Blue AMH) lack Lyngham for some reason - another good West Gallery tune.

Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on :

I will not sing "Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken" to Austria because of its sad association with Nazi Germany. Abbot's Leigh is a splendid alternative.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
The NEH and Common Praise (Blue AMH) lack Lyngham for some reason - another good West Gallery tune.

Though the name always gives me palpitations

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
I will not sing "Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken" to Austria because of its sad association with Nazi Germany. Abbot's Leigh is a splendid alternative.

IIRC we've had this one out on these boards before. Suffice it to say that many of us think that as this was the German anthem before the Nazi period and has been since then, and it was written by that most untotalitarian of composers Haydn, it's not a tainted tune.

[ 04. September 2013, 21:09: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
If you do west gallery you come to associate it with Gibraltar, where it is a standard startup tune alongside Come Sound his Praise Abroad to St Thomas.

As it happens, we may be having "St. Thomas" on Sunday to go with a good new(ish) American hymn "Let justice flow like streams" - to link in with Racial Justice Sunday and Martin Luther King.

Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on :

Don't forget that 'Glorious Things of Thee are Spoken', and lots of other 8787 or 8787D hymnns, can also be sung to O My Darling Clementine!

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
If you do west gallery you come to associate it with Gibraltar, where it is a standard startup tune alongside Come Sound his Praise Abroad to St Thomas.
As it happens, we may be having "St. Thomas" on Sunday to go with a good new(ish) American hymn "Let justice flow like streams" - to link in with Racial Justice Sunday and Martin Luther King.

Yes, but which one? Williams' Psalmody, 1770 (SM), I suspect, rather than Ashworth's Collection, 1760 (CM), or Samuel Webbe (87.87.87). There are times when referring to a tune by its name alone is not sufficiently precise! [Confused]

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Clavus:
Don't forget that 'Glorious Things of Thee are Spoken', and lots of other 8787 or 8787D hymnns, can also be sung to O My Darling Clementine!

Yes, and any 7676 one - e.g. Jerusalem the golden or O sacred head sore wounded - can be sung to Schubert's Die Forelle (The Trout), for that matter. But would you bother ...

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

One of the weirdest I've come across is caused by Kevin Mayhew citing 'Daily, Daily' as an 8787D tune which it blatently isn't. THe 'Hail Mary, Hail Mary, Hail Mary full of grace' ending is 66 and in my brain is strongly associated with those words (cf To be a Pilgrim and One Lord, One Faith One Church) to sing anything else to it let alone something with the wrong number of syllables. Can't remember which words it was, but it didn't work! I can't check because I don't own any hymnbooks published by Mr Mayhew...

Carys

Posted by Gwalchmai (# 17802) on :

While we are talking of 8787D tunes can I put in a plea for the wonderful Welsh tune Calon Lan. Does anybody know a translation or paraphrase in English of the original Welsh words that can be sung to the tune? "Calon Lan" means "a pure heart".

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
As it happens, we may be having "St. Thomas" on Sunday to go with a good new(ish) American hymn "Let justice flow like streams" - to link in with Racial Justice Sunday and Martin Luther King.
Yes, but which one? Williams' Psalmody, 1770 (SM), I suspect, rather than Ashworth's Collection, 1760 (CM), or Samuel Webbe (87.87.87). There are times when referring to a tune by its name alone is not sufficiently precise!

You are right - it is the Williams one, I hadn't realised there were others! I know there are at least two tunes called "St. Andrew", too.

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
One of the weirdest I've come across is caused by Kevin Mayhew citing 'Daily, Daily' as an 8787D tune which it blatently isn't. THe 'Hail Mary, Hail Mary, Hail Mary full of grace' ending is 66 and in my brain is strongly associated with those words (cf To be a Pilgrim and One Lord, One Faith One Church) to sing anything else to it let alone something with the wrong number of syllables. Can't remember which words it was, but it didn't work! I can't check because I don't own any hymnbooks published by Mr Mayhew...

Carys

I see what you mean, but even the English Hymnal (the old one) describes the tune (which it pairs, of course, with Sabine Baring-Gould's 'Daily daily sing the praises' rather than 'Ye who own the faith') as 8787D. If you use it for the latter, then the refrain will come out as Ha-il Mar-y (ter), full of grace - 8 + 7 syllables.

As a mild diversion you could also try it with 'Guide me O thou great Redeemer/Jehovah', ('a favourite hymn of Lady Huntingdon's young collegians') repeating the two last lines instead of the last alone [Two face]

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
As it happens, we may be having "St. Thomas" on Sunday to go with a good new(ish) American hymn "Let justice flow like streams" - to link in with Racial Justice Sunday and Martin Luther King.
Yes, but which one? Williams' Psalmody, 1770 (SM), I suspect, rather than Ashworth's Collection, 1760 (CM), or Samuel Webbe (87.87.87). There are times when referring to a tune by its name alone is not sufficiently precise!
You are right - it is the Williams one, I hadn't realised there were others! I know there are at least two tunes called "St. Andrew", too.

Yes. Two Salzburgs, two St Gregorys, two Worcesters, to name but three pairs that have caused confusion chez nous ..

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:

As a mild diversion you could also try it with 'Guide me O thou great Redeemer/Jehovah', ('a favourite hymn of Lady Huntingdon's young collegians') repeating the two last lines instead of the last alone

I've just tried humming that and it works a treat, with no need for repetitions.

The Old English Hymnal gives Ye who own as 87.87.87.6. Vaughan Williams couldn't face the Daily Daily tune so gives Den Der Vater Sinn Geboren, which I've never heard.

He adds By omitting the refrain of each verse this hymn may be sung to TANTUM ERGO No. 68

New English Hymnal piously repeats RVW's choice and adds Daily Daily.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I couldn't sing 'Daily daily' without thinking of the Marian 'ye who own the faith of Jesus...'

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Ye who own the faith of Jesus is the words. Daily daily is the tune.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Gwalchmai

I haven't been able to find a translation or paraphrase of Calon Lan so we sing the tune to different words:NEH number 141 - Holy Spirit, ever dwelling in the holiest realms of light. The given tune in the book is less than inspiring and choir and congregation enjoy Calon Lan far more...

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Leo
I can't sing (or play for)Ye who own the faith without singing under my breath O that I had wings of angels ...

Carys
The reason the metre is given as 8787D in Mayhew books is because that IS the metre - the tune is called Daily, daily because it was written for a Sabine Baring-Gould hymn of that name, the full chorus of which runs:
O, that I had wings of angels
Here to spread and heavenward fly;
I would seek the gates of Sion,
Far beyond the starry sky!

When the tune is used for Ye who own the faith the original rhythm of the last four lines is adapted so that
dotted quaver-semiquaver-crochet-crochet-dotted quaver-semiquaver-crochet-crochet
becomes
crochet-crochet-crochet-crochet-crochet-crochet
so 8 syllables become 6 by 'losing' the dotted rhythm. [Smile]

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Gwalchmai

I haven't been able to find a translation or paraphrase of Calon Lan so we sing the tune to different words:NEH number 141 - Holy Spirit, ever dwelling in the holiest realms of light. The given tune in the book is less than inspiring and choir and congregation enjoy Calon Lan far more...

One exists, "I ask not for ease and riches", but it has a certain doggerel quality to it, and I don't think I've ever heard it sung (although I see someone's been misguided enough to issue a recording of it).

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Ye who own the faith of Jesus is the words. Daily daily is the tune.

Unless, you're singing Daily, daily. Sadly, I've yet to convince our PP to choose 'Ye who own' for Marian feasts at our shack. All the other NEH selection but not the best one!

Thurible

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

That's the hymn I mean by "Daily daily".

It's a shame NEH and old EH omit the verse from "Ye who own"

For the King of men and angels
Chose her out of all he made,
And in robes of grace and glory
Her humility arrayed;
With the radiant sun he clothed her,
At her feet the moon he laid.
Hail Mary, hail Mary, hail Mary full of grace.

One mo' time...

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
I will not sing "Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken" to Austria because of its sad association with Nazi Germany. Abbot's Leigh is a splendid alternative.
IIRC we've had this one out on these boards before. Suffice it to say that many of us think that as this was the German anthem before the Nazi period and has been since then, and it was written by that most untotalitarian of composers Haydn, it's not a tainted tune.

I inadvertently offended some German friends my claiming that "Deutschland, Deutschland uber alles" (Germany above everyone else) was the start of their national anthem. I didn't know that they ditched that verse after WW2, but kept the tune.

ETA: However, purely as a tune, I do prefer Abbots Leigh.

[ 05. September 2013, 14:57: Message edited by: Robert Armin ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
That's the hymn I mean by "Daily daily".

It's a shame NEH and old EH omit the verse from "Ye who own"

For the King of men and angels
Chose her out of all he made,
And in robes of grace and glory
Her humility arrayed;
With the radiant sun he clothed her,
At her feet the moon he laid.
Hail Mary, hail Mary, hail Mary full of grace.

One mo' time...

Amen. Because I've always been used to EH, I didn't know that verse, despite the many 'extreme' Anglo-catholic places I've worshipped in.

So scriptural too - Rev. 12

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

It's in The English Catholic Hymn Book, aka the little blue book.

Here's another verse:

So of her that loved and suffered
Was our better Samuel born;
So did Sion's Virgin Daughter
Laugh Assyria' might to scorn;
So did Esther, daring all things,
Lift again the captives' horn.
Hail Mary...

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It's in The English Catholic Hymn Book, aka the little blue book.

Here's another verse:

So of her that loved and suffered
Was our better Samuel born;
So did Sion's Virgin Daughter
Laugh Assyria' might to scorn;
So did Esther, daring all things,
Lift again the captives' horn.
Hail Mary...

Now that is somewhat 'heavy'.

We love our Lady as our mum, without too much theology!

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Leo
I can't sing (or play for)Ye who own the faith without singing under my breath O that I had wings of angels ...

Carys
The reason the metre is given as 8787D in Mayhew books is because that IS the metre - the tune is called Daily, daily because it was written for a Sabine Baring-Gould hymn of that name, the full chorus of which runs:
O, that I had wings of angels
Here to spread and heavenward fly;
I would seek the gates of Sion,
Far beyond the starry sky!

When the tune is used for Ye who own the faith the original rhythm of the last four lines is adapted so that
dotted quaver-semiquaver-crochet-crochet-dotted quaver-semiquaver-crochet-crochet
becomes
crochet-crochet-crochet-crochet-crochet-crochet
so 8 syllables become 6 by 'losing' the dotted rhythm.

Not sure about the sequence of events you suggest. The EH says the tune comes from 'a French Paroissien'. No indication of date, but it sounds like a number of other pieces (e.g. Tantum ergo (Grafton), St Venantius, Regnator orbis et al.) which are found in collections published in France in the late c 17th. It seems more likely therefore that it pre-dates Baring-Gould, and has perhaps come to be known as 'Daily Daily' because of its use for those words.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

Does it really matter what tune is used provided it is one that the congregation is familiar with and likes. I can understand how uncomfortable some feel at singing a different tune from that they are used to, but it doesn't take much effort to adjust. There are some tunes that are musically barren and it is ok at times to introduce and alternative, but democracy should probably rule in the end.

Posted by Graham J (# 505) on :

(Apologies if it's already been mentioned. )

I'd like to put in a vote for Ilkley moor as a melody for While shepherds.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

seconded

Posted by ST (# 14600) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Graham J:
(Apologies if it's already been mentioned. )

I'd like to put in a vote for Ilkley moor as a melody for While shepherds.

Sorry, but it has to be Lyngham - although I did get fed up with it while in Cornwall

Posted by Dal Segno (# 14673) on :

On Sunday we are playing "O Jesus I have promised" to the tune Wolvercote, which I always think of as the wrong tune. While trying to find the "right tune" (it's none of the five I've found so far), I wondered if I could subvert the musicians to agree to play it to the Muppet Show Theme Tune. I'm sure the congregation will never look at the hymn the same way for ever afterwards [Biased]

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Clavus:
'O Little Town of Bethlehem' is sung to St Louis in the USA but to Forest Green in England. St Louis was written for it and suits the mood better; Forest Green is too jaunty.

Actually, I find St Louis to be a cheesy, tacky barbershop triviality. The sentimental chromaticism of that slide from I to i diminished in the first line is nauseating.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by Clavus:
'O Little Town of Bethlehem' is sung to St Louis in the USA but to Forest Green in England. St Louis was written for it and suits the mood better; Forest Green is too jaunty.
Actually, I find St Louis to be a cheesy, tacky barbershop triviality. The sentimental chromaticism of that slide from I to i diminished in the first line is nauseating.

I complete agree about the 'barbershop-ism' of St Louis! I once worked for a church where the Christmas Eve custom (invariable) was to alternate between the two tunes stanza by stanza. It didn't seem odd then, it probably would today. (In the Hymnal 1940 the two tunes were in the same key and on facing pages, which made the process almost too simple.)

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Whispers ... There is always the Walford Davies tune "Christmas Carol", you know ...

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Whispers ... There is always the Walford Davies tune "Christmas Carol", you know ...

And I think it came out of copyright at the end of 2012.

Posted by Morlader (# 16040) on :

HWD died 11 March 1941, so his works came out of copyright 31 Dec 2011, 70 years on. Just saying.

I think his setting (given for example in one of the Carols for Choirs books, (2 I think)) is the best, though not so easy for congregations.

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
When the tune is used for Ye who own the faith the original rhythm of the last four lines is adapted so that
dotted quaver-semiquaver-crochet-crochet-dotted quaver-semiquaver-crochet-crochet
becomes
crochet-crochet-crochet-crochet-crochet-crochet
so 8 syllables become 6 by 'losing' the dotted rhythm. [/QB]

Interesting. That makes sense, seeing as that's the rhythm in the other lines, but my brain is now programmed with that version! Interestingly where I'm planning to go tomorrow is having it but to the first tune in NEH, which I suspect will be just wrong to me. At least they've warned me by specifying the tune on the pew leaflet. I'm guessing it's out of loyalty to Mr Dearmer, or at least, because they've been singing it to that tune since his day and so that is the right tune to them.

Carys
[Edited to add the at lew st]

[ 07. September 2013, 21:16: Message edited by: Carys ]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

A colleague who plays at a church with strong naval connections was asked if there wasn't something in addition to Eternal Father, strong to save for Sea Sunday.

After much searching they came up O Lord, be with us when we sail upon the lonely deep (!) but it was decided (a) some of the verses were just too dreadful and (b) it needed pepping-up.

They now sing 3 eight line verses to Materna - commonly used for America the beautiful . [Biased]

Posted by Quinquireme (# 17384) on :

If I'm booking a deputy, I provide a hymn list and always specify which tune , if there is a choice. Seems to make sense if only to keep the congregation happy.

Posted by Quinquireme (# 17384) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Graham J:
(Apologies if it's already been mentioned. )

I'd like to put in a vote for Ilkley moor as a melody for While shepherds.

I think it was actually the original tune anyway

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Quinquireme:

quote:
Originally posted by Graham J:
(Apologies if it's already been mentioned. )

I'd like to put in a vote for Ilkley moor as a melody for While shepherds.
I think it was actually the original tune anyway

No, it can't be. The tune 'Cranbrook' was written by Thomas Clark of Canterbury (1775 - 1859) for Doddridge's Grace, 'tis a charming sound. An informative article about Clark may be found here.

While humble shepherds is first found in the 'Supplement to the New Version' published in 1708. The 'New Version' is the PSALMS OF DAVID; Fitted to the TUNES USED IN CHURCHES
by N. BRADY, D.D and N. TATE, Esq., 1696. I have no idea what tune was given for it there, but it not impossible that it could have been Winchester, which certainly would have been one of the 'tunes used in churches'.

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

Well, this morning someone got their revenge on me. Seeing as half of central Cardiff was closed off for some people going for a jog, I went to a service entitled "Family Worship with Holy Communion" — very much something I wouldn't normally attend. So you can imagine my relief when the projectionist found "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross", followed by bemusement when the tune wasn't Rockingham or Morte Christi, but some modern thing. Is this an idiosyncrasy, or am I just too much out of the loop?

[deleted duplicate post]

[ 08. September 2013, 20:39: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

Don't tell me that was at St.John the Baptist?

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

You mean this one. It feels very similar to the this version of Amazing Grace by the same composer.

Let me be clear. The tune to the historic hymn has some resemblance to the hymn tune. The Amazing Grace one is clear to me. The "When I survey" is more difficult, but I felt I knew it although it was not quite the tune above.

The chorus is actually do not fit, I mean they are as bad as the last verse of Amazing Grace. It is a complete clunk as you change sound to the modern praise band. However in a praise band type church I think I can see why that might popularise the hymn.

Oh one gripe, why did they had to change wonderous to wonderful in the chorus.

Jengie

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I said up thread that I’ ve never sung “O for a thousand tongues to sing” to Lyngham. Well I have now and I loved it. It was the introit to Parish Mass at Walsingham yesterday.

Then we sang “All hail the power of Jesus’ name” to Diadem as we processed round the shrine grounds in the afternoon with the Blessed Sacrament.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
[QUOTE]No, it can't be. The tune 'Cranbrook' was written by Thomas Clark of Canterbury (1775 - 1859) for Doddridge's Grace, 'tis a charming sound. An informative article about Clark may be found here.

While humble shepherds is first found in the 'Supplement to the New Version' published in 1708. The 'New Version' is the PSALMS OF DAVID; Fitted to the TUNES USED IN CHURCHES
by N. BRADY, D.D and N. TATE, Esq., 1696. I have no idea what tune was given for it there, but it not impossible that it could have been Winchester, which certainly would have been one of the 'tunes used in churches'.

It wouldn't have had an 'original tune'. There were a few psalms that had their own associated tunes, but the idea that there was a right tune for each hymn didn't really develop until the mid nineteenth century. Tate and Brady wrote the words. It was up to each community to decide what tune it wanted to sing them to.

'While Shepherds Watched' is Common Metre. So are 'Grace 'tis a charming sound' and Amazing Grace. Winchester Old was a widely known Common Metre tune which the compilers of the first edition of Hymns Ancient & Modern printed with 'While Shepherds watched' because they disapproved of the more florid tunes like Lyngham and Cranbrook which what they scorned as yokel bands were wont to provide.

'When I survey the wondrous cross' is Long Metre. The tune I would traditionally associate with it is Rockingham, which is also, for me, the tune that goes with 'My God and is thy table spread'.

I've never heard the tune Jengie links to, but to me, it is uninspiring and unmemorable. We sometimes sing 'When I survey' to Waly Waly, which IMHO works very well.

Amazing Grace with the chorus about the chains, is using the usual tune for the verses, but wandering a bit off key and off rhythm. It's only the chorus that is a different tune.

Venbede, did your visit happen to coincide with a parish pilgrimage from one of the big Anglo-Catholic churches in Yorkshire?

[ 09. September 2013, 09:30: Message edited by: Enoch ]

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
Don't tell me that was at St.John the Baptist?

No, I meant to imply that I stayed out in the wilds of the country.

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
You mean this one.

Thanks, Jengie, that's the one.

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I've never heard the tune Jengie links to, but to me, it is uninspiring and unmemorable. We sometimes sing 'When I survey' to Waly Waly, which IMHO works very well.

Yes, uninspiring and unmemorable pretty much was my opinion of it too; but people seemed to know and like it, so what can I say? (And it seemed a little odd to me to be singing that hymn other than on Good Friday in any event...)

Interesting idea to sing it to Waly Waly — I quite like it.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

What is idiosyncratic?

The old English Hymnal set Love Divine to Fairest Isle - damned fine tune, weird to be used for a hymn, and possibly the most congregation unfriendly ever.

And might that be another (musical) tangent? The use of the Londonderry Air for hymns is, at first glance, reasonable - it is, after all, a tune which most congregations will know; but the range is huge and, IME, defeats 99.9% of all congregation members, so the result is frustrating for organist and singers.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
What is idiosyncratic?

The old English Hymnal set Love Divine to Fairest Isle - damned fine tune, weird to be used for a hymn, and possibly the most congregation unfriendly ever.

And might that be another (musical) tangent? The use of the Londonderry Air for hymns is, at first glance, reasonable - it is, after all, a tune which most congregations will know; but the range is huge and, IME, defeats 99.9% of all congregation members, so the result is frustrating for organist and singers.

We plough the fields has the same problem. Indeed, it's only in recent years that a low Ab hasn't been the lowest note I can produce in even ideal circumstances, but any suggestion of putting it any higher causes tears of pain from the more alto/bassy types.

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

When I Survey has loads of tunes - what about the Welsh choir favourite Morte Christe? Sentimental, sure, but when the organ kicks in before the last verse, it makes me want to stand up and cheer.

Most churches who would use the Chris Tomlin version are probably happy to sing When I Survey all year round. Mine certainly is (although we don't actually sing that version).

I find it a bit of a drone, so was imagining it done plainchant style!

We do sing Amazing Grace with the Chris Tomlin addition sometimes. The change of timing irks me a little, but the chorus seems to work well, and for me it breathes new life into a hymn we can sometimes take for granted.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
What is idiosyncratic?

The old English Hymnal set Love Divine to Fairest Isle - damned fine tune, weird to be used for a hymn, and possibly the most congregation unfriendly ever.

And might that be another (musical) tangent? The use of the Londonderry Air for hymns is, at first glance, reasonable - it is, after all, a tune which most congregations will know; but the range is huge and, IME, defeats 99.9% of all congregation members, so the result is frustrating for organist and singers.

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
A colleague who plays at a church with strong naval connections was asked if there wasn't something in addition to Eternal Father, strong to save for Sea Sunday.

After much searching they came up O Lord, be with us when we sail upon the lonely deep (!) but it was decided (a) some of the verses were just too dreadful and (b) it needed pepping-up.

They now sing 3 eight line verses to Materna - commonly used for America the beautiful .

Tangentially. My immediate thought of a possible hymn was I feel the winds of God today to Kingsfold

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
When I Survey has loads of tunes - what about the Welsh choir favourite Morte Christe? Sentimental, sure, but when the organ kicks in before the last verse, it makes me want to stand up and cheer.

Totally the best tune for that hymn IMO. But there is the element of feeling as if one needs to affix a leek to one's lapel to sing it...

quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
Most churches who would use the Chris Tomlin version are probably happy to sing When I Survey all year round. Mine certainly is (although we don't actually sing that version).

<tangent>Funny how they tend to be the same people who object to the Adoration of the Cross on Good Friday (even when rebranded as the Proclamation CW-style).</tangent>

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The old English Hymnal set Love Divine to Fairest Isle - damned fine tune, weird to be used for a hymn, and possibly the most congregation unfriendly ever.

My copy has MORIAH. Is FAIREST ISLE a first edition thing?

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
We plough the fields has the same problem. Indeed, it's only in recent years that a low Ab hasn't been the lowest note I can produce in even ideal circumstances, but any suggestion of putting it any higher causes tears of pain from the more alto/bassy types.

I start running into difficulties at Bb. Notes below there simply don't exist as far as I'm concerned. When someone's pitched a hymn in a particularly dopey key, I have been known to sing it an octave up, proper Alto style. [Smile]

(And I've never much liked London Backsides as a tune anyway. Way too slushily sentimental. Needs gratuitous glissandi.)

Posted by Gwalchmai (# 17802) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
A colleague who plays at a church with strong naval connections was asked if there wasn't something in addition to Eternal Father, strong to save for Sea Sunday.

After much searching they came up O Lord, be with us when we sail upon the lonely deep (!) but it was decided (a) some of the verses were just too dreadful and (b) it needed pepping-up.

They now sing 3 eight line verses to Materna - commonly used for America the beautiful .

What about "Will your anchor hold"?

Posted by Gwalchmai (# 17802) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
Totally the best tune for that hymn IMO. But there is the element of feeling as if one needs to affix a leek to one's lapel to sing it...

Most of the best hymn tunes require leek on the lapel - including my log-in name!

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The old English Hymnal set Love Divine to Fairest Isle - damned fine tune, weird to be used for a hymn, and possibly the most congregation unfriendly ever.

Charles Wesley wrote the words to that tune.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Indeed, Venbede - but then its not only music for hymns that give you the feeling that preparedness to sing, never mind ability, must have been far greater in Wesley's day than in ours.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Indeed, Venbede - but then its not only music for hymns that give you the feeling that preparedness to sing, never mind ability, must have been far greater in Wesley's day than in ours.

Possibly, but Purcell was much more recent in Wesley's time than ours.

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
[QUOTE]No, it can't be. The tune 'Cranbrook' was written by Thomas Clark of Canterbury (1775 - 1859) for Doddridge's Grace, 'tis a charming sound. An informative article about Clark may be found here.

While humble shepherds is first found in the 'Supplement to the New Version' published in 1708. The 'New Version' is the PSALMS OF DAVID; Fitted to the TUNES USED IN CHURCHES
by N. BRADY, D.D and N. TATE, Esq., 1696. I have no idea what tune was given for it there, but it not impossible that it could have been Winchester, which certainly would have been one of the 'tunes used in churches'.
It wouldn't have had an 'original tune'. There were a few psalms that had their own associated tunes, but the idea that there was a right tune for each hymn didn't really develop until the mid nineteenth century. Tate and Brady wrote the words. It was up to each community to decide what tune it wanted to sing them to.

'While Shepherds Watched' is Common Metre. So are 'Grace 'tis a charming sound' and Amazing Grace. Winchester Old was a widely known Common Metre tune which the compilers of the first edition of Hymns Ancient & Modern printed with 'While Shepherds watched' because they disapproved of the more florid tunes like Lyngham and Cranbrook which what they scorned as yokel bands were wont to provide.

'When I survey the wondrous cross' is Long Metre. The tune I would traditionally associate with it is Rockingham, which is also, for me, the tune that goes with 'My God and is thy table spread'.

I've never heard the tune Jengie links to, but to me, it is uninspiring and unmemorable. We sometimes sing 'When I survey' to Waly Waly, which IMHO works very well.

Amazing Grace with the chorus about the chains, is using the usual tune for the verses, but wandering a bit off key and off rhythm. It's only the chorus that is a different tune.

Venbede, did your visit happen to coincide with a parish pilgrimage from one of the big Anglo-Catholic churches in Yorkshire?

The general idea of 'right tunes' for hymns is a relatively recent development, I agree, but there are instances as far back as Handel of tunes being composed to fit particular words (e.g. Gopsal). To judge from the number of tunes 'called 'Old nth' there must have been a fair degree of matching of tune with psalm at least in the case of metrical psalms, and not always because of metrical exigiency. English metrical psalters tended towards minimalism in the variety of metres used to the point that Rous used only CM, and non CM versions were supplied only as alternatives in the 1650 Scottish Psalter. By way of contrast the Genevan Psalter used over a hundred different metrical patterns making the concept of 'the right tune' inevitable. Over and above that, collections of psalm tunes such as Tansur's Harmony of Sion indicated pairings of words and tunes, though of course local custom or preference could take precedence.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

It's further back than Handel. The Old Hundredth has been linked, as it still is, to Sternhold and Hopkins's version of the Jubilate since at least the seventeenth century, and I suspect the sixteenth. Their version of Psalm 50 is in a peculiar metre, with a tune that would fit nothing else. Be that as it may, though, a large proportion of their psalms are in standard metres with interchangeable tunes.

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

Calon Lan was mentioned upthread. Welsh singer Mal Pope used it for 'What a friend we have in Jesus' on one of his albums and I rather like it.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

This weekend, I heard for the first time a hymn specially written for a Ruby Wedding anniversary. The words were lovely - most suitable for the occasion and also for any wedding ceremony. The tune was 'Drink to me only with thine eyes' which I thought was most appropriate for a wedding theme - one where the association would be well known.

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It's further back than Handel. The Old Hundredth has been linked, as it still is, to Sternhold and Hopkins's version of the Jubilate since at least the seventeenth century, and I suspect the sixteenth. Their version of Psalm 50 is in a peculiar metre, with a tune that would fit nothing else. Be that as it may, though, a large proportion of their psalms are in standard metres with interchangeable tunes.

In general, yes. The Scottish Psalter has CM versions of all the psalms, and alternatives of some in other metres. Where there is such an alternative it is in my experience the one with which congregations will be familiar - e.g. Pss. 25, 67 (SM); 100 (LM); 124 (10's); 136, 148 (HM).

Similarly Hopkins's own version of Psalm 100 is CM, but the Old Version also includes as an alternative William Kethe's version (though the ascription has been questioned), LM, and now always associated with the 'Old 100th'. But the tune isn't what it might seem - it is in fact the Genevan tune to Psalm 134. With regard to Psalm 50 the OV again has a version by Hopkins himself which is SM, in addition to the Whittingham version which is in the same metre as the French version in the Genevan psalter, so that it fits the Genevan tune. (Whittingham had been exiled in Geneva during the reign of Mary, and was married to Calvin's sister.) The Old 50th is a good tune, but not easy to sing - the one time I came across it the congregation was making very heavy weather of it.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
... The Old 50th is a good tune, but not easy to sing - the one time I came across it the congregation was making very heavy weather of it.

I envy you. I've wondered how it's supposed to be sung. I can't work out how to fit the words and the tune together for the last two lines of each verse.

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
... The Old 50th is a good tune, but not easy to sing - the one time I came across it the congregation was making very heavy weather of it.
I envy you. I've wondered how it's supposed to be sung. I can't work out how to fit the words and the tune together for the last two lines of each verse.

If you've got Hymns Ancient and Modern (the really really old one, with the blue cover), it's number 660 in there. Otherwise, here goes with a very unclear explanation (taking it as being in 4/2):
- in line 4, the eighth syllable is slurred over three minims fa-la-so (this may be where you're getting lost)
- line 5 should be straightforward -- maybe the Alto part moving on the fourth syllable is catching your ear?
- line 6 is mainly a matter of counting: the first five syllables are all semibreves, much though one will want to press on through the text faster! Then then eighth syllable is slurred over two crotchets so-fa.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I must admit "Almighty Father Unoriginate" is a new one on me, but it might catch on again.

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I must admit "Almighty Father Unoriginate" is a new one on me, but it might catch on again.

LOL!

I don't think there can be any quibble with the revisers' leaving that one out. The tune really should have been moved to "And now, O Father, mindful of the love", but that one already had two tunes. There are really too many good tunes for how many good lyrics there are in 10.10T, and that's even with A&M lacking FFIGYSBREN and BRO ABER (and FINLANDIA, although that is more 4.6's than 10's).

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Yebbut, that version has been tinkered with. The original is 10,10,10,10, 11,11. It has extra notes at the end of the fifth line and fairly near the beginning of the sixth.

Also, in an older version I've got that goes with the original words, line 4 is slightly different and more straightforward. It looks as though there was originally an extra note in the earlier part of the line, and the slurred bit you mention has been compounded out of gracing notes that previously went with individual syllables.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

The salvation Army has a lovely holiness hymn that goes to the tune of 'Drink to me Only with Thine Eyes':

THERE is a holy hill of God,
Its heights by faith I see;
Now to ascend my soul aspires,
To leave earth’s vanity.

<snip - full text>

William Drake Pennick (1884-1944)

[Edited for possible copyright violation]

[ 21. September 2013, 05:37: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

Mudfrog,

You should be well aware by now of the Ship's copyright policy. We do not allow any more than two verses at most of any hymn or song to be quoted in case of copyright violation. It is always preferable to link to content quoted elsewhere.

seasick, Eccles host

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Mudfrog,

You should be well aware by now of the Ship's copyright policy. We do not allow any more than two verses at most of any hymn or song to be quoted in case of copyright violation. It is always preferable to link to content quoted elsewhere.

seasick, Eccles host

Oooops, sorry

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I've allowed 24 hours to pass to see if the idea of singing any words to the tune of Drink to me only in church would add to the gaiety of life. Answer - NO.

Tried the idea on the more musical members of my choir - their reactions split more or less 50:50 between [Killing me]

and

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I've allowed 24 hours to pass to see if the idea of singing any words to the tune of Drink to me only in church would add to the gaiety of life. Answer - NO.

Tried the idea on the more musical members of my choir - their reactions split more or less 50:50 between and

You don't like the Salvation Army song then?

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Yebbut, that version has been tinkered with. The original is 10,10,10,10, 11,11. It has extra notes at the end of the fifth line and fairly near the beginning of the .

You mean Mariah Carey has been singing again?

Posted by Aggie (# 4385) on :

I once attended a church where "Hail the day that sees him rise" was sung to a a very pretty tune called Chislehurst, rather than the usual Llanfair.

When it is sung to Chislehurst, the Alleluias at the end of each line are omitted, and instead they are sung four times at the end of each verse.

I am not aware of any other churches that use this tune for this hymn, although it is listed in the New English Hymnal. I have looked on youtube to see if I could find it, but alas it seems that most directors of music prefer to sing "Hail the day that sees him rise" to Llanfair.

[ 23. September 2013, 09:50: Message edited by: Aggie ]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I sung "Hail the day that sees him rise" to Chiselhurst once on Ascension Day at St Alban's Holborn. We had a music copy of NEH (top line only).

It is a nice change, isn't it?

I rather like singing hymns to new tunes or at least tunes I don't usually hear.

Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :

I love 'Chislehurst' (both the tune, and as the place I went to school!). Presumably it was written when the SECM (as was then) was based there prior to the move to Addington Palace?

Posted by Aggie (# 4385) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I sung "Hail the day that sees him rise" to Chiselhurst once on Ascension Day at St Alban's Holborn. We had a music copy of NEH (top line only).

Was this during Michael Fleming's time as Director of Music? I understand he was quite fond of this tune, as I think he knew its composer, Sydney Nicholson.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

There's a stained glass window to Michael Fleming in St Michael's Croydon with the notes of "To God all praise and glory" at the bottom of the window (Gregory the Great - chant don't yer know? - with Canterbury Cathedral at the top).

Actually, there is an "alleluia" at the end of lines one and two of Chishelhurst and then three at the end of line four.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
I love 'Chislehurst' (both the tune, and as the place I went to school!). Presumably it was written when the SECM (as was then) was based there prior to the move to Addington Palace?

On a tangent, are you a Chis & Sid old boy, then? Good school.

Posted by Aggie (# 4385) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
There's a stained glass window to Michael Fleming in St Michael's Croydon with the notes of "To God all praise and glory" at the bottom of the window (Gregory the Great - chant don't yer know? - with Canterbury Cathedral at the top).

Actually, there is an "alleluia" at the end of lines one and two of Chishelhurst and then three at the end of line four.

"To God all praise and glory" is the refrain in the hymn "Sing Praise to God Who reigns above", Michael Fleming wrote the tune "Palace Green" for this hymn.

And yes, you are quite right about the "alleluias" in the Chislehurst tune. I haven't heard it for so long, I'd forgotten exactly how it goes.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

And St Michael's duly sang All praise to God on Easter Day. (Michael Fleming was director of music there.)

Posted by Wild Organist (# 12631) on :

Anyone tried "While Shepherds Watched" to House of the Rising Sun? (Oh, how I'd love to see the faces of the congregation as it dawned on them... [Devil]

)

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

IMO 'The House of the Rising Sun,' goes better with 'Amazing Grace.'

You've prompted me, though, to try singing 'While Shepherds Watched' to the Mickey Mouse Theme.

If any of the UK Shipmates saw a bit of the BBC4 programme last night on the great English murder, they will have heard 'Kingsfold' as the tune of one of the ballads about Maria Marten and the Red Barn Murder.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

There was once a version of the "Gloria" to "Eastenders". I've never managed to track it down, but it seems to work ell!

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Kingsfold was a folk tune before RVW took it over as a hymn tune (and a fine one it is).

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Come to think of it, in Vaughan William's ballad opera Hugh the Drover, there is one point where a character sings the opening lines of Maria Marten and they do so to the tune RVW named Kingsfold in English Hymnal.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

The House of the Rising Sun is Common Metre. So it ought to fit. Both 'While Shepherds watched' and 'Amazing Grace' are Common Metre. Kingsfold is Double Common Metre.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Kingsfold was a folk tune before RVW took it over as a hymn tune (and a fine one it is).

Absolutely! I (being unacquainted with 'Hugh the Drover') wasn't previously aware, though, that it was the tune to the murder ballad.

Posted by Gwalchmai (# 17802) on :

Does anybody else remember a group called the Mastersingers in the 1960s (when I was lad) who recorded part of the Highway Code and the weather forecast to Anglican psalm chants? The Weather Forecast was played on Radio 3 Breakfast a couple of weeks or so ago.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Gwalchmai

They weren't the Mastersingers, they were The King's Singers . The Highway Code and Shipping/Weather Forecast were on an EP (!) and I still have a copy.

Posted by Pearl B4 Swine (# 11451) on :

Yes. I do. Way back then, one of my basses brought the tape to rehearsal, and we all were on the floor laughing. We listened about a dozen times. The weather forecast

Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Wild Organist:
Anyone tried "While Shepherds Watched" to House of the Rising Sun? (Oh, how I'd love to see the faces of the congregation as it dawned on them... )

Actually "There is a green hill" was played to that tune by a Christian rock band at some festival back in th early seventies when that kind of thing was fresh and exciting. That was part of the path, I think, which led my sister to faith and so indirectly me too. The Lord moves in mysterious ways.

I seem to remember hearing "I know that my redeemer lives" to the tune of BBC's Match of the Day at an all-age worship service. My brain has mercifully deleted exactly how it went.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

p-thread someone wondered about the Gloria and Eastenders : it was done by Barry Rose..

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Hang on. They are called Mastersingers on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qngi_jSaXlI

Posted by AndyB (# 10186) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Kingsfold was a folk tune before RVW took it over as a hymn tune (and a fine one it is).
Absolutely! I (being unacquainted with 'Hugh the Drover') wasn't previously aware, though, that it was the tune to the murder ballad.

It is also a variant on the Star of the County Down.

The Weather Forecast and the Highway Code were indeed by the Master Singers.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Venbede

They may be called The Mastersingers on YouTube but I suspect that is because the person who uploaded it either doesn't have the original EP or can't read ... the sound is definitely The Kings Singers.

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

I have the EP also and it does say the Mastersingers on it. The mystery deepens.

It really does sound like the King's Singers, but were they around at that time?

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

The answer to this question can be found here (if you scroll down a bit or do a search for 'Weather forecast')

Posted by AndyB (# 10186) on :

As those who have the EP can confirm, it was definitely the Mastersingers, none of whom were ever in the King's Singers. That they sound similar is no coincidence - one rather expects that with a male voice chamber ensemble, but the other clue is that there are precisely four voices in the Mastersingers, but there have always been six in the King's Singers.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Ahem
Which probably settles the tangent.
/Ahem

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:

quote:
Originally posted by Wild Organist:
Anyone tried "While Shepherds Watched" to House of the Rising Sun? (Oh, how I'd love to see the faces of the congregation as it dawned on them... )
Actually "There is a green hill" was played to that tune by a Christian rock band at some festival back in th early seventies when that kind of thing was fresh and exciting. That was part of the path, I think, which led my sister to faith and so indirectly me too. The Lord moves in mysterious ways.

I seem to remember hearing "I know that my redeemer lives" to the tune of BBC's Match of the Day at an all-age worship service. My brain has mercifully deleted exactly how it went.

The Salvation Army had a pop group in the mid '60s. It was called the Joystrings. Seeing that they were contemporary to The Animals, what do you think of THIS ?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I seem to remember hearing "I know that my redeemer lives" to the tune of BBC's Match of the Day at an all-age worship service. My brain has mercifully deleted exactly how it went.

Two points.

1. There have been two MOTD tunes - which one?

2. My wife is Scottish. Many years ago she was helping at a Children's Mission where the (English) leader introduced a song to the MOTD tune. It went down like a lead balloon as they don't have MOTD in Scotland but a different programme.

[ 26. September 2013, 08:27: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I seem to remember hearing "I know that my redeemer lives" to the tune of BBC's Match of the Day at an all-age worship service. My brain has mercifully deleted exactly how it went.
Two points.

1. There have been two MOTD tunes - which one?

2. My wife is Scottish. Many years ago she was helping at a Children's Mission where the (English) leader introduced a song to the MOTD tune. It went down like a lead balloon as they don't have MOTD in Scotland but a different programme.

This was originally posted by Jonah and the Whale, not me.

Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :

Yes, it was me, though frogs and whales are both aquatic creatures so I can understand the confusion.

According to Wikipedia the current theme tune to MotD was written in 1970. Although I was born before 1970 it was broadcast after my bedtime so I can't remember the earlier one.

JtW

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

If its the tune from 1970 then I know that my redeemer liveth won't fit. (I assume you mean the Jennens words as used by Handel, not some more modern bowdlerised rubbish?)

Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :

I have to say I resent you making me do this, having all sorts of horrible flashbacks my brain thought it had deleted. A google search revealed the following which my phone won't play. Try it at your own peril:

quote:

Midi Page
home.freeuk.net/midis/hymn.htm
Match of the Day (I know that my Redeemer Liveth) (DH) Melita 495 (GD) Men of Harlech 732 (GD)

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If its the tune from 1970 then I know that my redeemer liveth won't fit. (I assume you mean the Jennens words as used by Handel, not some more modern bowdlerised rubbish?)

I suspect it's probably the Jessie B. Pounds ("Hope's Messenger", 1893) version of modern rubbish. [Smile]

The words would vaguely fit then.

Posted by Gwalchmai (# 17802) on :

Today, the Feast of St Michael & All Angels, we sang "It came upon a midnight clear." My first reaction, on looking up the hymns in the book before the service started, was why are we singing Christmas carols in September? But on reflection, the words of "It came upon a midnight clear" are mostly about angels and very little about Christmas, so it was an appropriate hymn to sing.

Are there any other hymns which are firmly associated with a particular season, but might be appropriate for some other time of the year?

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Gwalchmai: blame (1) the compilers of the NEH which has Midnight Clear in its list of Also suitables at the end of the section for Michaelmas and (2) the RSCM which suggested it some years ago (may even have done this year, I haven't bothered to look).

As for hymns suitable at other seasons: Be thou my guardian and my guide is now listed as being for Lent, but used to be under General and is indeed suitable at any time.

Otherwise: Lift high the cross always seems to me perfect for Easter, although it isn't categorised as such...

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