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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Inclusive Church Sunday
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I don't usually approve from departing from the lectionary into special one-off days but we kept the lectionary this morning as the readings were appropriate, with specially themed hymns, penitential rite, intercessions and eucharistic prayer.
The one thing ommitted was the Lord's Prayer. I don't know whether this was because some abuse victims find the word 'father' difficult (but it was in the blessing) or, more likely, because it was left out by mistake when the service booklet was compiled.
Who else observed this day?
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
We didn't. Thank God. I have no problem with Inclusive Church as it is, but our service this morning ran quite long as it was (for a variety of reasons, ranging from the length of the proper offertory sentence to the fact that are new assistant organist added some — pretty but entirely superfluous — interludes between verses of the final hymn). The last thing the service needed was yet more faff. Also, it's not exactly an approved festival, still less one that would take precedence over a Sunday in Ordinary Time, is it?
Omitting the Lord's Prayer, for any reason whatsoever, at the main Sunday service is to my mind one of the grossest violations against both the canons and good liturgical sense.
[ 15. September 2013, 15:27: Message edited by: S. Bacchus ]
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
Oh well, forgive me if I was snippy. We did have two hymns that might seem appropriate ('Just as I am' and 'There's a wideness in God's mercy'), but I'm about 95% sure that was coincidence.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Oh, and the point that it is not 'approved' is its point.
We think the Christian gospel demands the inclusion of minorities and that much of the liturgy is written by people in positions of power and that it needs subverting now and then.
PLUS, even if we had different readings from those in the RCL, which we didn't, the rubrics allow for the setting aside of the listed readings during Ordinary Time.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
The problem I have with "Inclusive Church" is that it continually uses the word "Church" when it means Church of England, obliterating the rest of us in the process so I struggle to think of it as inclusive in any real sense. I certainly wouldn't give a Sunday over to them.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
The problem I have with "Inclusive Church" is that it continually uses the word "Church" when it means Church of England, obliterating the rest of us in the process so I struggle to think of it as inclusive in any real sense. I certainly wouldn't give a Sunday over to them.
Very good point - hadn't thought of that.
Though 'Inclusive Church of England is a bit cumbersome.
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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
A Mass, the service Jesus told us to celebrate, without the Lord's Prayer, the prayer Jesus told us to pray?
Hmm.
Thurible
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
A Mass, the service Jesus told us to celebrate, without the Lord's Prayer, the prayer Jesus told us to pray?
Hmm.
Thurible
Mind, he never specifically linked the two.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
This is true. But, were one to approach his commands with an inclusive mindset...
Thurible
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Emendator Liturgia
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# 17245
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Posted
<Tangent Alert>
Our Lection in the Daughter Church of the CofE had readings for the 24th Sunday in Ordinary Time (Trinity 16) of Exodus 32.7-14, Psalm 51.10-19, I Timothy 1.12-17, and Luke 15.1-10.
<End Tangent Alert>
On the question of Inclusive Church Sunday (which hasn't raised yet its suggesting head in General Synod), I agree with the thought that Christ's command, 'When you pray, say this...' is binding. Enough to make the little Baby Jesus cry, though, when we're celebrating his mysteries in full?
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
The problem I have with "Inclusive Church" is that it continually uses the word "Church" when it means Church of England, obliterating the rest of us in the process so I struggle to think of it as inclusive in any real sense. I certainly wouldn't give a Sunday over to them.
Very good point - hadn't thought of that.
Though 'Inclusive Church of England is a bit cumbersome.
I think they might be able to get away with the title if they were more careful with their language in the rest of their materials.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I absolutely agree with all that. I'd never heard of it until I discovered this thread and, while appreciating that some of the issues being raised have specific CofE implications, I am sure they would be of interest to others (URC and Methodist, at least).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
What is Inclusive Church Sunday?
Generally, I disapprove of nearly everything done in the name of being inclusive. Removing anything and everything that might possibly exclude anybody leaves nothing worth being included into in the first place. Just because a church or service welcomes all doesn't mean that anybody will find it a place they care to be welcomed. So what if they can spend an hour in an old building not being offended? Aren't there any number of place they can spend a couple of hours on a Sunday morning not being offended?
Still, I don't know what Inclusive Church Sunday is so I will allow for the possibility it might be worth doing.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Every service should be inclusive - as you may interpret that word.
Why advertise exclusive by having an inclusive Sunday? Presumably your attitudes don't change on an Inclusive Sunday - if they do you have one massive problem.
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
The problem I have with "Inclusive Church" is that it continually uses the word "Church" when it means Church of England, obliterating the rest of us in the process so I struggle to think of it as inclusive in any real sense. I certainly wouldn't give a Sunday over to them.
Very good point - hadn't thought of that.
Though 'Inclusive Church of England is a bit cumbersome.
I think they might be able to get away with the title if they were more careful with their language in the rest of their materials.
I find this point rather tiresome. Of course Church of England organizations sometimes use 'the Church' to mean 'the Church of England'. Guess what, Papa Francesco, even when he is making making one his comments that make the media and liberal Catholics swoon, still refers to the Roman Catholic Church as 'the Church' (or, usually as 'la chiesa'); the Orthodox routinely do the same (so, in my experience, do the Mormons, but of them it is probably best to be silent). Why shouldn't the Church of England be allowed to refer to itself as 'the Church', especially in contexts that don't imply 'we're the one true Church and the rest of you are at best "ecclesial communities"'?
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I'm afraid you've got the wrong end of the stick: what folk like me are saying is that no single Christian grouping, however large or prevalent, should refer to itself in ways which imply it is the totality of the Church, even though we know that (most of the time but not always) it is really shorthand for "our bit of the Church". It betrays - dare I say it on this thread? - an exclusivist mindset.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I'm afraid you've got the wrong end of the stick: what folk like me are saying is that no single Christian grouping, however large or prevalent, should refer to itself in ways which imply it is the totality of the Church, even though we know that (most of the time but not always) it is really shorthand for "our bit of the Church". It betrays - dare I say it on this thread? - an exclusivist mindset.
Preach it brother but are you being exclusive in claiming it's exclusive?
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
What is Inclusive Church Sunday?
Generally, I disapprove of nearly everything done in the name of being inclusive. Removing anything and everything that might possibly exclude anybody leaves nothing worth being included into in the first place. Just because a church or service welcomes all doesn't mean that anybody will find it a place they care to be welcomed. So what if they can spend an hour in an old building not being offended? Aren't there any number of place they can spend a couple of hours on a Sunday morning not being offended?
Still, I don't know what Inclusive Church Sunday is so I will allow for the possibility it might be worth doing.
It is the celebration of all that LGB and other 'minority' groups (women, disabled etc) have done for the advancement of the gospel in a church that denies and/or doesn't want their presence, let alone their contribution.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Every service should be inclusive - as you may interpret that word.
Why advertise exclusive by having an inclusive Sunday? Presumably your attitudes don't change on an Inclusive Sunday - if they do you have one massive problem.
No change from usual - just pointing it up.
And are most services really inclusive in most churches? When did you see a gay partnered couple take up the offertory procession? Or pray for Pride Day in the intercessions? Or bless a civil partnership?
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
<Tangent Alert>
Our Lection in the Daughter Church of the CofE had readings for the 24th Sunday in Ordinary Time (Trinity 16) of Exodus 32.7-14, Psalm 51.10-19, I Timothy 1.12-17, and Luke 15.1-10.
<End Tangent Alert>
On the question of Inclusive Church Sunday (which hasn't raised yet its suggesting head in General Synod), I agree with the thought that Christ's command, 'When you pray, say this...' is binding. Enough to make the little Baby Jesus cry, though, when we're celebrating his mysteries in full?
Yes - we had those readings too.
The Lord's prayer is probably a bit of a red herring - i suspect its omission wasn't intentional - just a busy incumbent copying and pasting and forgetting this prayer because he'd copied a eucharistic prayer and a fraction as they were next together in the Inclusive Church resources.
Anyway , if we are obeying the Lord's command, you might equally say that the ommission of footwashing at every mass is a failure to obey the commands - it only happens in some/many black-led churches and on one day per year, if that, for the rest of us.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Every service should be inclusive - as you may interpret that word.
Why advertise exclusive by having an inclusive Sunday? Presumably your attitudes don't change on an Inclusive Sunday - if they do you have one massive problem.
No change from usual - just pointing it up.
And are most services really inclusive in most churches? When did you see a gay partnered couple take up the offertory procession? Or pray for Pride Day in the intercessions? Or bless a civil partnership?
For you to be really inclusive you'd have a lay person conducting and presiding at the eucharist. have you done that? If not, then you aren't inclusive, you are excluding some very gifted and talented people from participating in a communal celebration.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Hell, why stop there? Have people bring their pets to church and present them at the altar rail. Dogs need Jesus too.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Hell, why stop there? Have people bring their pets to church and present them at the altar rail. Dogs need Jesus too.
Are you, by any chance, seeking to equate lay presidency with some kind of animal fetish?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Worse yet is the implied equation of certain parishoners to dogs.
Even Our Lord didn't get away with remarks like that.
[ 16. September 2013, 22:20: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
I'm not sure how administering Communion to house pets would qualify as an animal fetish, but it's not beyond belief that there is already a website devoted to it somewhere.
And I would have thought that equating parishioners and animals, as far as the Eucharist goes, would be radically inclusive. Alas, Anthropism remains alive and well in the Church!
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
quote:
posted by leo:
And are most services really inclusive in most churches? When did you see a gay partnered couple take up the offertory procession? Or pray for Pride Day in the intercessions? Or bless a civil partnership?
Last civil partnership blessing: two weeks ago
Pray for Pride day? I think we did. Certainly a mix of gay and straight from the church attended the march.
Taking up the offertory procession? to be honest I never notice who does it, but it would surprise me very much it hadn't been done by a gay partnered couple. (And I can think of at least four couples who probably have done that)
Gay clergy? Yes
Gay civil partnered clergy? Yes (and not the same person)
Women clergy? Yes, but not at the moment
Ethnic minority clergy? Yes
Straight clergy? Yes
[ 17. September 2013, 10:05: Message edited by: kingsfold ]
Posts: 4473 | From: land of the wee midgie | Registered: Nov 2001
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And are most services really inclusive in most churches? When did you see a gay partnered couple take up the offertory procession?
Um, all the time? I think that, when I lived in London, praying for Pride probably happened. It certainly wouldn't have scandalized anyone. Blessing civil partnerships, although something that I personally favour very much, would require priests to break their oaths of canonical obedience, which serious priests take very seriously.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Every service should be inclusive - as you may interpret that word.
Why advertise exclusive by having an inclusive Sunday? Presumably your attitudes don't change on an Inclusive Sunday - if they do you have one massive problem.
No change from usual - just pointing it up.
And are most services really inclusive in most churches? When did you see a gay partnered couple take up the offertory procession? Or pray for Pride Day in the intercessions? Or bless a civil partnership?
For you to be really inclusive you'd have a lay person conducting and presiding at the eucharist. have you done that? If not, then you aren't inclusive, you are excluding some very gifted and talented people from participating in a communal celebration.
not at all - lay celebration would exclude those of us who have a catholic ecclesiology.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And are most services really inclusive in most churches? When did you see a gay partnered couple take up the offertory procession?
Um, all the time? I think that, when I lived in London, praying for Pride probably happened. It certainly wouldn't have scandalized anyone. Blessing civil partnerships, although something that I personally favour very much, would require priests to break their oaths of canonical obedience, which serious priests take very seriously.
Many bishops allow/encourage the blessing of civil partnerships - as long as they are not conducted like weddings.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]not at all - lay celebration would exclude those of us who have a catholic ecclesiology.
Which exclusion is it to be then - lay or catholic?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]not at all - lay celebration would exclude those of us who have a catholic ecclesiology.
Which exclusion is it to be then - lay or catholic?
You know, I think you're right. The next time I get on a bus, I'm going to demand to drive--just so, you know, I'm included. That'll show all those fascists with their unions and commercial driver's licenses!
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]Many bishops allow/encourage the blessing of civil partnerships - as long as they are not conducted like weddings.
Well, a good many of them are conducted in that manner and have been for a number of years. The celebrants concerned take as much notice of the bishops as they do of canon law.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]not at all - lay celebration would exclude those of us who have a catholic ecclesiology.
Which exclusion is it to be then - lay or catholic?
You know, I think you're right. The next time I get on a bus, I'm going to demand to drive--just so, you know, I'm included. That'll show all those fascists with their unions and commercial driver's licenses!
Well the bus has got the same gear stick and pedals as a car - what can be so tough? Get in and got on with it that's what I say Father.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
You know, I think you're right. The next time I get on a bus, I'm going to demand to drive--just so, you know, I'm included. That'll show all those fascists with their unions and commercial driver's licenses!
Well the bus has got the same gear stick and pedals as a car - what can be so tough? Get in and got on with it that's what I say Father.
Ah, but you haven't got a PSV licence ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) - which rather demolishes your argument even though I agree with you!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
You know, I think you're right. The next time I get on a bus, I'm going to demand to drive--just so, you know, I'm included. That'll show all those fascists with their unions and commercial driver's licenses!
Well the bus has got the same gear stick and pedals as a car - what can be so tough? Get in and got on with it that's what I say Father.
Ah, but you haven't got a PSV licence - which rather demolishes your argument even though I agree with you!
A licence merely confirms what you know you can already do. Bit like ordination actually.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Ah...so you want to exclude anybody with a different understanding of Holy Orders than you.
For shame... ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Thanks though for illustrating why I mistrust anything done in the name of inclusivity. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 18. September 2013, 00:54: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
A Mass, the service Jesus told us to celebrate, without the Lord's Prayer, the prayer Jesus told us to pray?
Hmm.
Thurible
Mind, he never specifically linked the two.
Jungmann (II-278ff) seems to say that the Our Father enters the liturgy of the mass only in the 4th century as a prayer of preparation to receive communion.
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
As one of the biggest old queens on the Ship (I've been putting on weight recently) I'm mildly offended by an "Inclusive Church Sunday". When I say mildly offended, of course, I mean a brief raising heavenward of the eyes, and a barely audible "Oh, for ***'s sake ...". Nothing the Church does these days gets much more of a reaction out of me.
Call me jaded and cynical, but I fail to see how such an event could be anything but a Big Lie (because the Church as an institution is far from what I'd call "inclusive"); or smug ("Hey, look at us! We don't beat you with sticks any more! Aren;t we good girls and boys?")
Other minorities' mileages may vary.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Call me jaded and cynical, but I fail to see how such an event could be anything but a Big Lie (because the Church as an institution is far from what I'd call "inclusive"); or smug ("Hey, look at us! We don't beat you with sticks any more! Aren;t we good girls and boys?")
Other minorities' mileages may vary.
The national church, sure.
But we can celebrate those parish churches which refuse to follow the national church's line. To assure people that we won't refuse the Holy Communion.
[ 18. September 2013, 11:47: Message edited by: leo ]
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
... To assure people that we won't refuse the Holy Communion.
Leo, this really isn't aimed at you - it's aimed very firmly at the Church as an institution - but the very fact that that needed to be said speaks volumes.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
As one of the biggest old queens on the Ship (I've been putting on weight recently) I'm mildly offended by an "Inclusive Church Sunday". When I say mildly offended, of course, I mean a brief raising heavenward of the eyes, and a barely audible "Oh, for ***'s sake ...". Nothing the Church does these days gets much more of a reaction out of me.
Call me jaded and cynical, but I fail to see how such an event could be anything but a Big Lie (because the Church as an institution is far from what I'd call "inclusive"); or smug ("Hey, look at us! We don't beat you with sticks any more! Aren;t we good girls and boys?")
Other minorities' mileages may vary.
It does rather put me in mind of the Onion headline concerning Black History Week - 'Black History Week Ends, White History Year Resumes'.
I know it is well intentioned but there is a note of this about it...
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Flinging wide the gates...
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
We didn't mark "Inclusive Church Sunday".
1. It was Holy Cross Day - translated from the preceding day.
2. It was Battle of Britain Sunday.
3. All churches should be inclusive - to have only one Sunday a year when this is so is outrageous.
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Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
The thing that turns me off about Inclusive Church is that they might want to be, but it's almost a signal to anyone who is not a middle-class liberal that they are not welcome. Unless of course they are gay.
But to be truly inclusive the church has also got to welcome Tories, illiterate people, nasty people, even homophobic people. Not homophobia of course, or nastiness, but all sorts and conditions of people as people.
As a lefty Guardian reader myself I understand the temptation to have a cosy club of right-on like-minded mates, but it isn't the Church.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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S. Bacchus
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# 17778
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Posted
I agree with what Angloid and dj_ordinaire have said. I would add that I find the idea a bit smug. It seems less about being inclusive — which can be, should be, and generally is done without a special Sunday — and more about saying 'look at us, we're inclusive'.
Also, in re this:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The national church, sure.
But we can celebrate those parish churches which refuse to follow the national church's line. To assure people that we won't refuse the Holy Communion.
It is most emphatically NOT the policy of the Church of England, or of the Roman Catholic Church for that matter, to refuse Communion to any of those people with whom Inclusive Church is primarily concerned. I am almost entirely certain that the Pope himself would not refuse communion to a lay Roman Catholic who happened to be gay, or who disagreed with the Church's teachings on the ordination of women (and that was as true in Benedict's time as it is under Francis, despite the attempt of the media to draw larger contrasts between their respective pontificates than can yet be conclusively demonstrated). And I know that either of the current English Archbishops would. In fact, I can't recall the last time I heard of anyone being denied communion in an Anglican church.*
*Okay, that's not true, I did once see a priest who blessed a man rather than give him the host; the man proceeded to make a big fuss about this and claimed it was because he was homeless, but I suspect that the real reasons were that he had walked in halfway through the Eucharistic prayer and was very visibly drunk. I don't know if the priest (who was old enough and of such a tradition that he probably believed strongly in fasting and careful preparation for all communicants) did the right thing or not.
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
It is most emphatically NOT the policy of the Church of England, or of the Roman Catholic Church for that matter, to refuse Communion to any of those people with whom Inclusive Church is primarily concerned.
But it happens, especially in some conservative evangelical and charismatic churches. (Some use the Prayer Book line in the Exhortation about 'notorious sinners')
LGCM now has a policy of celebrating Communion at all its national and regional events because that is the only chance some people have of receiving the sacrament.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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pererin
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# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
3. All churches should be inclusive - to have only one Sunday a year when this is so is outrageous.
Drat you for channelling Tom Lehrer's National Brotherhood Week...
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Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012
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