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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Inclusive Church Sunday
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
It is most emphatically NOT the policy of the Church of England, or of the Roman Catholic Church for that matter, to refuse Communion to any of those people with whom Inclusive Church is primarily concerned.
But it happens, especially in some conservative evangelical and charismatic churches. (Some use the Prayer Book line in the Exhortation about 'notorious sinners')
LGCM now has a policy of celebrating Communion at all its national and regional events because that is the only chance some people have of receiving the sacrament.
Part of me wants to say, 'Name three.'
Another part of me wants to say, 'Don't tell me that's the only church in the village.'
I cannot believe that there is a significant number of gay people attending CofE churches which refuse them the sacrament and which they, meanwhile, stubbornly remain loyal to. And until Colin Coward PMs me to give me chapter and verse, I shall remain skeptical.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
It is most emphatically NOT the policy of the Church of England, or of the Roman Catholic Church for that matter, to refuse Communion to any of those people with whom Inclusive Church is primarily concerned.
But it happens, especially in some conservative evangelical and charismatic churches. (Some use the Prayer Book line in the Exhortation about 'notorious sinners')
LGCM now has a policy of celebrating Communion at all its national and regional events because that is the only chance some people have of receiving the sacrament.
Part of me wants to say, 'Name three.'
Another part of me wants to say, 'Don't tell me that's the only church in the village.'
I cannot believe that there is a significant number of gay people attending CofE churches which refuse them the sacrament and which they, meanwhile, stubbornly remain loyal to. And until Colin Coward PMs me to give me chapter and verse, I shall remain skeptical.
I could name you more than 3.
Sharon, of LGCM could names you many, many more but LGCM's phoneline is confidential.
Colin Coward is not a member of LGCM (indeed, he seems to be hostile to it, and it to him) so I don't know what he's got to do with it.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
And as for the 'only church in the village' - in many cases 6 or more villages are all in the same benefice/team ministry so the exclusion will apply for miles.
In cities, it is precisely because people can choose a different church that we need to make them know of our existence.
It seems to me that several people are in denial or have no idea how badly the churches have treated/are treating LGBT folk, how toxic churches can be.
I'd go as far as to advise LGBTs to stay away from all churches unless they have a very strong faith. Buddhism is far more attractive.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]I could name you more than 3.
Please do and give the the reasons for the "alleged" exclusions from the church's pov.
If you can't, don't or won't then we'll have to assume that either your assertion isn't right or that it was daft to make it (and you now realise that).
Which of these 3 options will it be Leo? Please put up or shut up.
I've been in and around churches of the more conservative hue for many years and I have never known of it happening.
[ 19. September 2013, 21:38: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'd go as far as to advise LGBTs to stay away from all churches unless they have a very strong faith. Buddhism is far more attractive.
So Buddhism's good enough for them, but not for you? Or do you just not think that Christianity has any unique recommendation over Buddhism full stop? In which case, what are you doing representing it as a lay minister?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'd go as far as to advise LGBTs to stay away from all churches unless they have a very strong faith. Buddhism is far more attractive.
What would your bishop and Rector think to that?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Colin Coward (of Changing Attitude) is relevant here because the claims you make are questionable while they are held by only one of the groups campaigning for the proper inclusion of gay and lesbian Christians in the Church. As long as it is only the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement making these claims, and that via a confidential phone line, they remain impossible to substantiate.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Buddhism is a lot less LGBT-friendly than many people think. Western Buddhism tends to be fairly liberal, but most expressions of Buddhism in Asia are closer to the cultural norms of wherever they happen to be, and are sometimes very conservative. And there are Buddhists in the UK who would look on Western Buddhism as more or less heretical (though they might not use the word).
But it does mystify me why some Christians remain in churches which are, in effect, abusive towards them. In the CofE, certainly, it is in principle extremely easy to leave one church and join another: all you have to do is not turn up at the first, but turn up at the second. I know there may be ties of family and friendship, but surely there's a balance between those, and being given the impression Sunday after Sunday that Your Sort Aren't Welcome Here.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'd go as far as to advise LGBTs to stay away from all churches unless they have a very strong faith. Buddhism is far more attractive.
So Buddhism's good enough for them, but not for you? Or do you just not think that Christianity has any unique recommendation over Buddhism full stop? In which case, what are you doing representing it as a lay minister?
My spiritual director hat is worn for anyone who comes to be - I am not, and should not be, becauise it is unprofessional, be an advocate for any one church or religion.
Which is better - a toxic church or a different spiritual path where a person might flourish?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'd go as far as to advise LGBTs to stay away from all churches unless they have a very strong faith. Buddhism is far more attractive.
What would your bishop and Rector think to that?
As a spiritual director, I am answerable to a supervisor. (And, vaguely, the SD community - our chief journal is a Jesuit publication called 'The Way' and there is an article from some time back that would also endorse my position.) Plus I have a published article in an edited book that argues this - so it is in the public domain.
Bishops don't interfere in SD.
My vicar, as it happens, thoroughly agrees with my position insofar as we have discussed it - he would, though, since as a ministry team we sing from the same hymn sheet when it comes to equalities - indeed, he applied for his present post, and was instituted by the bishop, specifically because this is our position.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'd go as far as to advise LGBTs to stay away from all churches unless they have a very strong faith. Buddhism is far more attractive.
So Buddhism's good enough for them, but not for you? Or do you just not think that Christianity has any unique recommendation over Buddhism full stop? In which case, what are you doing representing it as a lay minister?
My spiritual director hat is worn for anyone who comes to be - I am not, and should not be, becauise it is unprofessional, be an advocate for any one church or religion.
Which is better - a toxic church or a different spiritual path where a person might flourish?
The truth is better. If Jesus is, as he claims to be, the way, the truth, and the life (and not merely a way, a truth, and a life), and if you believe this--then why would you point people away from Him?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'd go as far as to advise LGBTs to stay away from all churches unless they have a very strong faith. Buddhism is far more attractive.
So Buddhism's good enough for them, but not for you? Or do you just not think that Christianity has any unique recommendation over Buddhism full stop? In which case, what are you doing representing it as a lay minister?
My spiritual director hat is worn for anyone who comes to be - I am not, and should not be, becauise it is unprofessional, be an advocate for any one church or religion.
Which is better - a toxic church or a different spiritual path where a person might flourish?
The truth is better. If Jesus is, as he claims to be, the way, the truth, and the life (and not merely a way, a truth, and a life), and if you believe this--then why would you point people away from Him?
The Johannine quotation, out of context and not acknowledging the Aramaic original, which is not about exclusivity, is a tangent I could pursue with you on another thread (though it has been done before several times on The Ship), if you like. But the OP asked who kept Inclusive Sunday - I will probably be accused of 'Junior Hosting' but that is what the OP said before people started to defend exclusivity by saying that it didn't exist so there was no need for inclusivity.
However, just a hint quote:
It's a truism that modern Western notions of truth — whether through the fault of the Greeks or the philosophers of the Enlightenment — are centred on precise, transparent (and therefore fully-possessed) meanings. But less important than establishing who is to blame for making us think that real truth is clear, fixed and timeless is realizing that we do, and that it's a problem. I suspect our tendency when we hear that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life is to make what he means by Way' and by 'Life' (modes of finding) into something that resembles what we mean by 'Truth' (a mode of givenness).
But Jesus spoke Aramaic, and the word he is most likely to have used when he talked of himself as the 'Truth' is the Aramaic version of the Hebrew word 'Amen'. And the word 'Amen' doesn't imply a given, possessed item of propositional truth; its meaning is most naturally a relational one, and it means 'reliability'
Abiding – B. Quash (Continuum Bloomsbury 2012) p. 146f
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Meanwhile, an Anglican archbishop in Harare has called for the excommunication for those who have a same-sex marriage.
http://geoconger.wordpress.com/2011/09/20/african-call-to-excommunicate-those-who-enter-into-a-gay-marriage-the-church-of-eng land-newspaper-sept-16-2011-p-6/
Chad Gandiya isn't the Archbishop of Harare, nor even one of the two men claiming that title. He is the Bishop of Harare. If you're looking for examples of excommunication of LGBT people in
the Church of England, is it too much to ask that you don't cite examples that are either form sub-Saharan Africa, or else part of another Communion altogether?
(Not that I'm denying the problem of homophobia in most of Africa, which I find greatly disturbing and frightening — I'm denying the relevancy of a bishop in Harare to congregations on the ground in Hertfordshire or Hampshire, where I suspect that very few, if any, incumbents are echoing the Zimbabwean prelate's statements).
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'd go as far as to advise LGBTs to stay away from all churches unless they have a very strong faith. Buddhism is far more attractive.
So Buddhism's good enough for them, but not for you? Or do you just not think that Christianity has any unique recommendation over Buddhism full stop? In which case, what are you doing representing it as a lay minister?
Another thought - I find some Buddhist spiritual practices helpful, as does RC, Jesuit priest William Johnson - see his book Silent Music.
Another Jesuit, Anthony de Mello uses Buddhist koans, see for example, his book The Song of the Bird.
On Spiritual Direction and LGBT people, I got many ideas from yet another Jesuit, such as how a toxic church will not feed but actively hurt and damage and how other spiritual paths might be more healing and growth-enabling. Spiritual Direction and the Gay Person - James Empereur
Now these three are all priests of the RCC and none has been bannmed as far as I know.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pommie Mick
Shipmate
# 12794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Every service should be inclusive - as you may interpret that word.
Why advertise exclusive by having an inclusive Sunday? Presumably your attitudes don't change on an Inclusive Sunday - if they do you have one massive problem.
No change from usual - just pointing it up.
And are most services really inclusive in most churches? When did you see a gay partnered couple take up the offertory procession? Or pray for Pride Day in the intercessions? Or bless a civil partnership?
For you to be really inclusive you'd have a lay person conducting and presiding at the eucharist. have you done that? If not, then you aren't inclusive, you are excluding some very gifted and talented people from participating in a communal celebration.
not at all - lay celebration would exclude those of us who have a catholic ecclesiology.
And this just confirms how stupid and ultimately contradictory the whole 'inclusion' agenda is.
Posts: 185 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2007
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]But Jesus spoke Aramaic, and the word he is most likely to have used when he talked of himself as the 'Truth' is the Aramaic version of the Hebrew word 'Amen'.
The truth is ... "most likely" means "I don't actually know but I'm flying a kite because it suits me and my agenda".
Leo - give us truth not specious opinions please and also please don't link to churches halfway across the world when your original implication was "lots of churches" in the UK.
All it ends up in is being called to another place which is what happened when you "allegedly" plagiarised something.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Woah, woah, woah - this thread is turning into a total trainwreck.
It is for the discussion of how we might worship on Inclusive Church Sunday. The things that it is not for include, amongst others, gay weddings in Harare, lay presidency, the use of Hebrew in the Johannine Gospel, accusations of insincerity, and 'Is Buddhism true?'
All very worthy of discussion perhaps, but in their allotted places (which are most likely Dead Horses, Dead Horses, Kerygmania, Hell and Purgatory respectively).
Please keep to topic all of you.
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Lord's prayer is probably a bit of a red herring - i suspect its omission wasn't intentional - just a busy incumbent copying and pasting and forgetting this prayer because he'd copied a eucharistic prayer and a fraction as they were next together in the Inclusive Church resources.
I was right - just spent the day with him and he said the phone rang while he was compiling the booklet and he resumed after a lengthy interval and forgot the our Father.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Leo, I'll get back to you in Hell - the only place I think that... ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Never mind - see me in Hell.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
... other 'minority' groups (women, etc ...)
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
I'm sorry, Leo, I know I'm deliberately getting the wrong end of the stick, but looking round the Cathedral on a Sunday, if there's one group that is absolutely not a minority, it's women.
I don't mean that it's either good or bad, it's just a numerical fact, and I'd be very surprised if it didn't apply in quite a few congregations.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
... other 'minority' groups (women, etc ...)
I'm sorry, Leo, I know I'm deliberately getting the wrong end of the stick, but looking round the Cathedral on a Sunday, if there's one group that is absolutely not a minority, it's women.
I don't mean that it's either good or bad, it's just a numerical fact, and I'd be very surprised if it didn't apply in quite a few congregations.
Minorities (in this sense) refer to groups who are outside the cultural norm, not just groups who consist of not many people. Western Christianity tends to have more women than men, but women are still a minority in the sense of being excluded from certain roles, and all women are a minority due to living in a patriarchal society - they're a minority in terms of social power.
Speaking as a queer working-class woman, I have to agree with Adeodatus and Angloid. Working-Class Sunday would be far more revolutionary in the CoE than Inclusive Church Sunday! While I applaud Inclusive Church's aims, like Greenbelt and SCM (and I love all three organisations), the urban middle-class self-congratulation can be pretty excluding despite the best of intentions.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Plique-ŕ-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Speaking as a queer working-class woman, I have to agree with Adeodatus and Angloid. Working-Class Sunday would be far more revolutionary in the CoE than Inclusive Church Sunday! While I applaud Inclusive Church's aims, like Greenbelt and SCM (and I love all three organisations), the urban middle-class self-congratulation can be pretty excluding despite the best of intentions.
Speaking as a queer working-class man, I started going to church to join in, not
Ah, forget it. There's no point. There's nothing left, is there? No. There's nothing left. There's just nothing left. There's nothing there is. There's nothing there, is there? No time. No church, certainly. Nothing.
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Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-ŕ-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Speaking as a queer working-class woman, I have to agree with Adeodatus and Angloid. Working-Class Sunday would be far more revolutionary in the CoE than Inclusive Church Sunday! While I applaud Inclusive Church's aims, like Greenbelt and SCM (and I love all three organisations), the urban middle-class self-congratulation can be pretty excluding despite the best of intentions.
Speaking as a queer working-class man, I started going to church to join in, not
Ah, forget it. There's no point. There's nothing left, is there? No. There's nothing left. There's just nothing left. There's nothing there is. There's nothing there, is there? No time. No church, certainly. Nothing.
Sorry, but what does your last paragraph mean?
Re joining in, it's a bit difficult to do so if you're being excluded. While groups like Inclusive Church include in some ways, they exclude in other ways.
And for me church is not about 'joining in' (assimilating?) but people gathered to hear the Word and the sacraments duly administered, in all our diversity.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
... if there's one group that is absolutely not a minority, it's women.
But in leadership roles?
As it happens, no (except where you'd expect them - Altar Guild, running the Sunday School, singing in the choir), although it doesn't seem to bother anyone - we're rather traditional.
My response to your post was meant to be light-hearted - I find it hard to see a group that makes up about half the population as a "minority" - and I really didn't expect anyone to take me seriously.
Mea culpa.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
Have you thought about removing any mentions of God and Jesus from the liturgy? Otherwise, the Church will be excluding minorities such as atheists and agnostics, who might fell offended. Aren´t we welcoming all?
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
... if there's one group that is absolutely not a minority, it's women.
But in leadership roles?
As it happens, no (except where you'd expect them - Altar Guild, running the Sunday School, singing in the choir), although it doesn't seem to bother anyone - we're rather traditional.
My response to your post was meant to be light-hearted - I find it hard to see a group that makes up about half the population as a "minority" - and I really didn't expect anyone to take me seriously.
Mea culpa.
You're right that women aren't a minority in the numerical sense in the church, but the use of 'minority' here isn't talking about numbers, but social power. It's a common use of the word.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
At my parish every Sunday is a "Working Class Sunday".
FYI, the church that traditionally uses terms like "intrinsically disordered" and "mortal sin" is not a mainline church. The Mainline churches are the (often affluent) Protestant churches that have historically been considered mainstream and influential in the U.S. and include churches like the Methodists, the Presbyterians, the Episcopalians, etc.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Re- 'Working Class Sunday', i agree - except that the mainline churches don't say that working class people are intrinsically disordered or that if you practice being working class you are in a state of mortal sin and, therefore, will go to hell.
So? It doesn't mean that they can't be classist. Classism, like homophobia, doesn't always take the form of saying XYZ is wrong and sinful - sometimes it can be benign, even positive-seeming at first. I also think that churches that tend to be the most classist or at least the least inclusive of working-class people tend to be the kind of churches who really like Inclusive Church. That's the problem - that Inclusive Church and similar organisations aren't truly inclusive. However I'm not sure it's so much a liberal thing (I've been in classist conservative churches) as an Anglican thing (and to some extent a Methodist thing).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
At my parish every Sunday is a "Working Class Sunday".
FYI, the church that traditionally uses terms like "intrinsically disordered" and "mortal sin" is not a mainline church. The Mainline churches are the (often affluent) Protestant churches that have historically been considered mainstream and influential in the U.S. and include churches like the Methodists, the Presbyterians, the Episcopalians, etc.
The RCC isn't a mainline church? I thought it was THE mainline church.
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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]The RCC isn't a mainline church? I thought it was THE mainline church.
THE main line to what exactly? Not the best example in my book in lots of areas.
Well, I suppose if you keep repeating something long enough, you get to believe it's true even if you're sadly deluded on certain aspects.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
At my parish every Sunday is a "Working Class Sunday".
FYI, the church that traditionally uses terms like "intrinsically disordered" and "mortal sin" is not a mainline church. The Mainline churches are the (often affluent) Protestant churches that have historically been considered mainstream and influential in the U.S. and include churches like the Methodists, the Presbyterians, the Episcopalians, etc.
The RCC isn't a mainline church? I thought it was THE mainline church.
No it's not, actually. For more info, wikipedia has a decent article about it. The term allegedly comes from the suburbs of Philadelphia that grew around the main line of the Philadelphia railroad and were populated by old-school Protestants, back in the day. The Catholics were busy tending their homes and working their mills.
If by "mainline" you really meant "the mainstream of historic Christianity and the majority of Christians throughout the world today", then that's a whole other kettle of fish.
[ 29. September 2013, 17:05: Message edited by: Pancho ]
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Pommie Mick
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Posted
So Leo, does being 'inclusive' mean that we don't name sin as sin, because it might hurt someone's feelings?
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
So Leo, does being 'inclusive' mean that we don't name sin as sin, because it might hurt someone's feelings?
No. It's about repentance from sins. The sins of excluding people because we think we're better than them, because their faces don't fit, or because our sins are forgiveable and theirs are beyond the pale.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]The RCC isn't a mainline church? I thought it was THE mainline church.
THE main line to what exactly? Not the best example in my book in lots of areas.
Well, I suppose if you keep repeating something long enough, you get to believe it's true even if you're sadly deluded on certain aspects.
Just done an interesting google search which suggests that people in the US use 'mainline' as in 'mainline PROTESTANT denominations.
Pond difference.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
So Leo, does being 'inclusive' mean that we don't name sin as sin, because it might hurt someone's feelings?
No. It's about repentance from sins. The sins of excluding people because we think we're better than them, because their faces don't fit, or because our sins are forgiveable and theirs are beyond the pale.
Indeed - and repentance for applying scripture selectively and using it to harass people, blackmail them, send them to prison and exclude them from the sacraments.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Re- 'Working Class Sunday', i agree - except that the mainline churches don't say that working class people are intrinsically disordered or that if you practice being working class you are in a state of mortal sin and, therefore, will go to hell.
That will explain why there are so many white working class men in Church of England churches every Sunday morning, and so few middle-class gay men.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]The RCC isn't a mainline church? I thought it was THE mainline church.
THE main line to what exactly? Not the best example in my book in lots of areas.
Well, I suppose if you keep repeating something long enough, you get to believe it's true even if you're sadly deluded on certain aspects.
Just done an interesting google search which suggests that people in the US use 'mainline' as in 'mainline PROTESTANT denominations.
Pond difference.
We had the discussion here a few years back. One of those "false friends" which seems like a familiar idiom but is not. Over here we might say "mainstream" denominations meaning the larger or older small-o-orthodox Trinitarian churches.
Over there "mainline" (rather than "mainstream") seems, as Pancho said, to have originated as a reference to class. Maybe a British equivalent might be "Stockbroker belt"? Anyway it apparently includes Quakers and doesn't include Catholics.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pommie Mick
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# 12794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
So Leo, does being 'inclusive' mean that we don't name sin as sin, because it might hurt someone's feelings?
No. It's about repentance from sins. The sins of excluding people because we think we're better than them, because their faces don't fit, or because our sins are forgiveable and theirs are beyond the pale.
No. That might be something else, but it certainly isn't 'it'.
We are all sinners in need of God's mercy and forgiveness. Yet you seem to be saying that certain things that have historically been regarded as sin should no longer be regarded as such. Is that what you're saying?
Posts: 185 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2007
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
So Leo, does being 'inclusive' mean that we don't name sin as sin, because it might hurt someone's feelings?
No. It's about repentance from sins. The sins of excluding people because we think we're better than them, because their faces don't fit, or because our sins are forgiveable and theirs are beyond the pale.
No. That might be something else, but it certainly isn't 'it'.
We are all sinners in need of God's mercy and forgiveness. Yet you seem to be saying that certain things that have historically been regarded as sin should no longer be regarded as such. Is that what you're saying?
Have you specific examples?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Come to think about it though, it's more that I'm saying that some things that weren't considered sins in the past now should be:
Sexism
Racism
Classism
Homophobia
Those sorts of things. Things that exclude people.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Pommie Mick
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# 12794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Come to think about it though, it's more that I'm saying that some things that weren't considered sins in the past now should be:
Sexism
Racism
Classism
Homophobia
Those sorts of things. Things that exclude people.
So you believe that those sins have excluded people and prevented them from joining the church?
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
What is "classism"?
Why isn't Ageism included? I'd have thought that especially important, bearing in mind the number of churches where "All-Age" is taken to mean aimed at the under 10s .
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Come to think about it though, it's more that I'm saying that some things that weren't considered sins in the past now should be:
Sexism
Racism
Classism
Homophobia
Those sorts of things. Things that exclude people.
So you believe that those sins have excluded people and prevented them from joining the church?
At the very least they've created divisions between people and caused folk to sit in judgement over and condemn others. And it's still happening; there are still those within the church trying to enforce sexism and homophobia within and without the church.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
What is "classism"?
Why isn't Ageism included? I'd have thought that especially important, bearing in mind the number of churches where "All-Age" is taken to mean aimed at the under 10s .
It wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list.
I used Classism to mean the sort of thing mentioned in the book of James, where certain socio-economic groups are considered more important and more worthy of respect than others. Not so much a problem since the CofE ceased to be the Tory party at prayer, but still scratching a living here and there.
Ageism is an interesting one. Personally, despite the "all age services" you describe, I find the church quite exclusive towards children.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Pommie Mick
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Posted
Ok. I'll make this simple.
Is the church allowed to speak out against sexual sin?
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
Ok. I'll make this simple.
Is the church allowed to speak out against sexual sin?
Look, if you think being gay is a sin, then by all means say so. If on the other hand you don't, and want to repent of historical homophobia, then you may want to make a point that you are now inclusive.
But you can't have your cake and eat it. If you want to rail against the queers, you can't also claim that you are inclusive of them.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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