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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Ordinariate Eucharistic Liturgy is Here!
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PaulTH*
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# 320
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Posted
I was present last evening at Our Lady of the Assumption and St Gregory, Warwick St, when the Monsignori rolled out the Ordinariate Use for the first time. to get the negativity out of the way first, my first impression of it was a cut paste and scissors combination of the BCP and the canon missae translated tastefully (more so than in the Knott Missal) into litugical English. From the modern rite it contains the embolism after the Lords Prayer, but it retains the threefold "Lord I am not worthy" from the usus antiquior and ends with the Last Gospel.
From the BCP are gems such as the Collect for Purity, the Prayer of Humble Access, the Penitentiary Rite after the homily and the Comfortable Words. The awful responory psalm is replaced by a psalm the way we knew it. Yet it retains the oratre fratres. personally I prefer a Roman confiteor as I like to seek the help of "Blessed Mary ever Virgin, all the angels and saints and you my brothers and sisters." But I noticed that when the choir was singing the introit, Mgr Keith and the servers muttered quietly the Roman confiteor, which is how it is at Mass in the Extraordinary Form and was done(illegally) in Anglican Churches which used the English Missal.
It's my understanding that, for weekday use, Eucharistic Prayer II in litugical English is also available. While I prefer III, this is perfect for short Masses. Mgr Burnham who gave the homily, was heavily involved in the production of this text, and it would have been difficult to please everyone. It will replace the BDW in America, and is an option for Ordinarate use, alonsgide the Ordinary and Extraordinary (never used by the Ordinariate afaik)Forms of the Mass. Theoretically, as it's a text approved by the Holy See, it could be used anywhere by Catholics in the English speaking world. So will it catch on?
I hope so, in that, if the Ordinariates are to have any independent identity, like for example, Eastern Rite Catholic Churches, they need their own liturgy, otherwise the only difference from an OF Mass is hymn singing. So I think that Mgr Keith should encourage his clergy to use this Mass at least once a month to start with, and when they get familair with it, more often. The OF is always an option which I wouldn't want to see disappear altogether, so we need the right balance. Finally, much to my delight, Mgr Keith consecrated the elements ad orientam . I hope this will be the norm for Ordinariate Use Masses.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
Paul, can I ask what was the music like and what hymn book is used?
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Music, drawn entirely from the English tradition, included Herbert Howells’ Collegium Regale. The hymns were “Firmly I believe and truly”, “Lead kindly light” and Praise to the Holiest”, all with words by Blessed John Henry Newman.
from NLM.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
I understand that not all Ordinariate congregations will be necessarily using the Ordinariate Rite. I know of one such congregation, used to the Normative Rite when they were still Anglicans, who are carrying on that way as before, apparently.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
I wrote the review linked in the original post, and it had not occurred to me, until PaulTH* pointed it out, that the Order of Mass combines the Tridentine embolism of the Lord's Prayer with the Novus Ordo practice of reciting it aloud. This confirms my sense of it as a cut-and-paste job.
Sorry that there is no publicly available copy yet. When one does appear I will try to provide a link.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
It is a REALLY BIG DEAL that most of the Tridentine texts that were not carried over into the Novus Ordo are now legally authorized in the vernacular for the first time anywhere in either the Roman Catholic or Anglican Communions - as far as I know, at least. It is only for a small part of the RCC but I still think it is awesome.
That said, having Eucharistic Prayer II in Tudorized language as the only option in the Ordinariate Use other than the Roman Canon is highly odd. It is understandable, seeing that Eucharistic Prayer II is the briefest and often the only Eucharistic Prayer anyone ever hears in the English Speaking world - but it is also the bane of Traditionalist Catholics for its lack of sacrificial language, among other things. Maybe it is included because it is something that the Ordinariate members used to the Novus Ordo back from their C of E days will be familiar with (albeit not in Tudorized language)?
i agree with the Cut-and-Paste liturgy criticism, though. I too am guilty of wishing for a "Dream Liturgy" consisting of a mishmash of different parts from different traditions. My Dream Liturgy, though, would also include an Eastern epiclesis (sp?), among other things ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
I wrote the review linked in the original post ...
I wondered how many F. Bauerschmidts could be about the U.S. Catholic interwebs!
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
How many Ordinariate laypeople and clergy will be familiar with 'Tudorised' language in liturgy? Most of them, in the UK at least, will have been accustomed to the (previous version of) the Roman Rite or a Romanised version of Common Worship.
I can go along with the artistic integrity argument that if you are using a liturgy (eg 1662) or individual prayers (such as the Prayer of Humble Access) from the Tudor age you should use the original language. But I can see no argument at all for 'back-translating' modern prayers, or newly translating Latin ones, into Tudorese. It's like putting plastic timbering on the front of your house or wearing doublet and hose to go to the office.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
How many Ordinariate laypeople and clergy will be familiar with 'Tudorised' language in liturgy? Most of them, in the UK at least, will have been accustomed to the (previous version of) the Roman Rite or a Romanised version of Common Worship.
That's just it; in the US (and, to a lesser degree, Canada), unlike the UK, the majority would be extremely familiar with such language. Only in the Midwest would one find any sizable numbers who have more experience with the (now-outmoded) Roman vernacular. It is a somewhat different landscape here, in that regard.
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
I wrote the review linked in the original post, and it had not occurred to me, until PaulTH* pointed it out, that the Order of Mass combines the Tridentine embolism of the Lord's Prayer with the Novus Ordo practice of reciting it aloud. This confirms my sense of it as a cut-and-paste job.
I am sure that it is, but I think that Paul meant that the embolism "For the kingdom, the power and the glory are yours, now and forever" is included after the modern Libera nos that follows the Our Father. This is, of course, from the Novus Ordo, and not the Tridentine rite, so I am not sure what you are saying here. I do agree that there are some cut-and-paste elements. I think that the feeling is that if at least some elements of the Novus Ordo are not included, it will be seen as a traditionalist-type commentary that the Novus Ordo is deficient, at least stylistically. (And many do indeed feel that way.)
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In the Tridentine rite, the Libero nos FOLLOWED the Pater noster.
Yes, it does so in both the Extraordinary Form, used in many traditional communities today, and the Ordinary Form, which is obviously the norm in most of the RC world. However, the modern version is a bit different from its predecessor:.
The EF version, as translated in the Anglican Missal, is said quietly by the priest, except for the last three words:
Deliver us, we beseech Thee, O Lord, from all evils past, present and to come, and at the intercession of the blessed and glorious Ever-Virgin Mary, Mother of God; with Thy blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and with Andrew, and all Thy Saints, give peace graciously in our days, that we, being holpen by the succour of Thy mercy, we may both alway be free from sin and safe from all disquietude. Through the same Thy Son our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, ever one God, world without end. Amen.
The OF version, as translated by ICEL in the current Roman Missal:
Deliver us, Lord, we pray, from every evil, graciously grant peace in our days, that, by the help of your mercy, we may be always free from sin and safe from all distress, as we await the blessed hope and the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.
After this the embolism is said by all:
For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
How many Ordinariate laypeople and clergy will be familiar with 'Tudorised' language in liturgy? Most of them, in the UK at least, will have been accustomed to the (previous version of) the Roman Rite or a Romanised version of Common Worship.
I can go along with the artistic integrity argument that if you are using a liturgy (eg 1662) or individual prayers (such as the Prayer of Humble Access) from the Tudor age you should use the original language. But I can see no argument at all for 'back-translating' modern prayers, or newly translating Latin ones, into Tudorese. It's like putting plastic timbering on the front of your house or wearing doublet and hose to go to the office.
I generally agree with you but surely the aim here is neither familiarity nor lingustic integrity, but instead trying to create something that will look distincttive to the Ordinariate.
I am convinced that it is the same principle at play with the language used in the new Roman translation which purports to be a more accurate translation of the Latin and ends up using words that very few understand, which just results in just a poor translation.
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Quite apart from the somewhat ironic notion that the Ordinariate want to hark back to good old Cranmer (and I really don't think he would have approved of THAT), I must add my voice of puzzlement about the "Tudorising" of language. The only purpose I can see is to try and create a veneer of historicity.
Surely lessons could have been learned from the Common Worship collects fiasco - where the C of E ended up with "Tudorised" collects that were (and remain) nigh on impossible to do properly. The most basic of lessons was ignored - they may read wonderfully on the page, but collects should be SAID not READ. And over a decade on, they are (IMNSHO) the best possible example of how NOT to do liturgy.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
I am convinced that it is the same principle at play with the language used in the new Roman translation which purports to be a more accurate translation of the Latin and ends up using words that very few understand, which just results in just a poor translation.
For all its faults, it's a marked improvement on the excessively loose translation that went before. If Anglicans were to emulate it, most of the demand for cod Tudor services would go away.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Its faults would be fewer if it had been produced or at least vetted by people whose first language was English and first priority was clarity and elegance. What I have seen of it suggests it was written by politically-motivated Daleks.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
I am not sure what you are saying here.
The embolism I was referring to is the Libera nos prayer itself. The actual text is the Tridentine one, including the mention of the saints and lacking the eschatological reference in the Novus Ordo version of the prayer. The eschatological ending in the NO version gives a natural lead-in to the concluding doxology. Like I said, kind of cut and paste.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
After this the embolism is said by all:
For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.
I don't think that's right - 'For thine..' is the end of the Lord's prayer, the 'embolism' is the inserted collect.
Wiki says quote:
The embolism in Christian Liturgy (from Greek ἐμβολισμός, an interpolation) is a short prayer said or sung after the Lord's Prayer. It functions "like a marginal gloss" upon the final petition of the Lord's Prayer (". . . deliver us from evil"), amplifying and elaborating on "the many implications" of that prayer.[1] In the Roman Rite of Mass, the embolism is followed by the doxology or, in the Tridentine Mass (which does not have that doxology), by the Fraction.
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Its faults would be fewer if it had been produced or at least vetted by people whose first language was English and first priority was clarity and elegance. What I have seen of it suggests it was written by politically-motivated Daleks.
It was produced and vetted by a group of individuals who were all native English speakers. Only one of them was a British-English native.
As for the "politically-motivated" remark: the motivation was very clearly to provide a liturgy to speak to the constituency spoken of by Ceremoniar. Knowing three of the commission involved (one of whom is distinctly ambivalent about the product), I can assure you there's nothing Dalek-like about them.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Its faults would be fewer if it had been produced or at least vetted by people whose first language was English and first priority was clarity and elegance. What I have seen of it suggests it was written by politically-motivated Daleks.
I.e. far more stylishly designed (even if it won't go up stairs) than the politically-motivated Zygons' rite that should have disappeared from your screens over 35 years ago, but which politically-motivated Weeping Angels still seek to breathe life into.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
The version in the Ordinariate Use is definately EF, translated as:
Deliver us, O Lord, we beseech thee, from all evils, past, present, and to come; and at the intercession of the blessed and glorious ever Virgin Mary, Mother of God, with thy blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and with Andrew, and all the Saints, favourably grant peace in our days, that by the help of thine availing mercy we may ever both be free from sin and safe from distress.
The embolism is pure BCP;
For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-Flop:
I understand that not all Ordinariate congregations will be necessarily using the Ordinariate Rite. I know of one such congregation, used to the Normative Rite when they were still Anglicans, who are carrying on that way as before, apparently .
I think this would be a mistake which the Ordinary needs to be firm about. Nobody is suggesting that the Ordinariate Use needs to be used at every Ordinariate Mass, but it needs too be used. This may prove easier in the US than in the UK, where the Normative Rite has been normative since the liturgical reforms of the 60's-70's. From the 1920's to the 1960's AC parishes used various combinations of the Prayer Book and the English Missal, and that's more or less what we've got here. Many Ordinarite grops are concerned that some of their members have "gone native" ie blended in with the diocesan Catholics. I've "gone Latin" myself, with my membership of the Latin Mass Society and the Association for Latin Liturgy.
If the Ordinariate is to continue as a recogniseable body within the greater Catholic Church, it needs a liturgical identity which it doesn't get from permanent use of the OF. It's just Mass with extra hymns. This is why the Ordinary must make sure that all his priests familiarise themselves with the Ordinariate Use, and celebrate Mass according to that use at regular intervals. The alternative is for the English Ordinariate to simply fade into the Church. That may not be a tragedy, but it goes against Pope Bendict's vision in creating Ordinariates.
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
I am convinced that it is the same principle at play with the language used in the new Roman translation which purports to be a more accurate translation of the Latin and ends up using words that very few understand, which just results in just a poor translation.
I couldn't disagree more! The new translation is, IMO, far superior to the Noddy language used before, and with the ELLC, reproduced in Common Worship. I'm glad to have joined the Catholic Church just at the time when the old translation was about to be consigned to the dustbin, and we can worship in a dignified way in English as well as Latin!
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
I am convinced that it is the same principle at play with the language used in the new Roman translation which purports to be a more accurate translation of the Latin and ends up using words that very few understand, which just results in just a poor translation.
I couldn't disagree more! The new translation is, IMO, far superior to the Noddy language used before, and with the ELLC, reproduced in Common Worship. I'm glad to have joined the Catholic Church just at the time when the old translation was about to be consigned to the dustbin, and we can worship in a dignified way in English as well as Latin!
I was really talking about the motivation for the change but dignity is not a term that the Catholics I kno w who have had experience of both translations tend to use about the new translation. It seems to vary from resigned acceptance at best to a frustration that it has impeded participation in the mass at worst. Perhaps it feels more palatable to the small minority of English-speaking Catholics who also worship in Latin with some frequency. Putting all that aside I am pleased that it is clearly working for you.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
The version in the Ordinariate Use is definately EF, translated as:
Deliver us, O Lord, we beseech thee, from all evils, past, present, and to come; and at the intercession of the blessed and glorious ever Virgin Mary, Mother of God, with thy blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and with Andrew, and all the Saints, favourably grant peace in our days, that by the help of thine availing mercy we may ever both be free from sin and safe from distress.
The embolism is pure BCP;
For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-Flop:
I understand that not all Ordinariate congregations will be necessarily using the Ordinariate Rite. I know of one such congregation, used to the Normative Rite when they were still Anglicans, who are carrying on that way as before, apparently .
I think this would be a mistake which the Ordinary needs to be firm about. Nobody is suggesting that the Ordinariate Use needs to be used at every Ordinariate Mass, but it needs too be used. This may prove easier in the US than in the UK, where the Normative Rite has been normative since the liturgical reforms of the 60's-70's. From the 1920's to the 1960's AC parishes used various combinations of the Prayer Book and the English Missal, and that's more or less what we've got here. Many Ordinarite grops are concerned that some of their members have "gone native" ie blended in with the diocesan Catholics. I've "gone Latin" myself, with my membership of the Latin Mass Society and the Association for Latin Liturgy.
If the Ordinariate is to continue as a recogniseable body within the greater Catholic Church, it needs a liturgical identity which it doesn't get from permanent use of the OF. It's just Mass with extra hymns. This is why the Ordinary must make sure that all his priests familiarise themselves with the Ordinariate Use, and celebrate Mass according to that use at regular intervals. The alternative is for the English Ordinariate to simply fade into the Church. That may not be a tragedy, but it goes against Pope Bendict's vision in creating Ordinariates.
According to a leaflet I have read about the Ordinariate, it is stated that Mass may be celebrated in the Ordinary Form and/or in the Extraordinary Form. I am not sure if there was some ambiguity in my use of the term 'Normative'. I made my point on good authority, because I had been speaking to a member of the Ordinariate congregation I refer to and they had taken with them what they were used to when they were still Anglicans.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Has no one posted about this yet? I haven't been on the ship for a while. No online text yet, but here's a review of it:
Anyone heard anything about when or where there will be an online text? Lots of announcements about the first Mass, but those participating in it seem to be the only ones who have had the privilege of seeing the text.
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
According to a leaflet I have read about the Ordinariate, it is stated that Mass may be celebrated in the Ordinary Form and/or in the Extraordinary Form.
I've never heard of any Ordinariate priest celebrating Mass in the Extraordinary Form, except Oxford scholar Fr John Hunwicke shortly after his (Catholic) ordination. In fact in America, I believe that the Ordinary, Mgr Steenson banned his churches from using the EF, because it forms no part of Anglican patrimonmy. Quite so, but any priest has the right to use it enshrined in Summorum Pontificum . so your description of the OF as normative is quite justified.
I was at Warwick St again today, and Mass was the OF, with four hymns, and ending with the Angelus, all quite standard for ex Anglo-Catholics. Chatting afterwards, we agreed that the Ordinariate Use needs to be used. It's neither necessary, nor even adviseable, that it should be used at every Mass, but it's effectively the Extraordinary Form for the Ordinariate, and Mass should be celebrated accordingly on a regular basis.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
but those participating in it seem to be the only ones who have had the privilege of seeing the text.
A booklet was produced for the "Votive Mass of Blessed John Henry Newman Celebrated according the the Ordinariate Use ." It contains the hymns, readings and the text of the Mass, and I will treasure it as a keepsake of that milestone celebration. I'm sure someone will post it online sometime soon.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
In fact in America, I believe that the Ordinary, Mgr Steenson banned his churches from using the EF, because it forms no part of Anglican patrimony.
Slightly disingenuous when they've apparently (and understandably) gone mining in the English/Anglican Missal family for this product ...
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
As a matter of curiosity from an outsider, is the Ordinariate resolutely utraquist . And if so, is this irrespective of which form it is using? As a cradle member of the CofE, I'd regard it as questionable whether one can claim to be being faithful to one's Anglican patrimony without being.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
As a matter of curiosity from an outsider, is the Ordinariate resolutely utraquist . And if so, is this irrespective of which form it is using? As a cradle member of the CofE, I'd regard it as questionable whether one can claim to be being faithful to one's Anglican patrimony without being.
quote:
"Holy Communion under both kinds is part of the patrimony and remains normal practice in the Personal Ordinariate" - Art.38, Guidelines for the celebration of the Holy Eucharist in the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham
[ 14. October 2013, 14:10: Message edited by: CL ]
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I've never heard of any Ordinariate priest celebrating Mass in the Extraordinary Form, except Oxford scholar Fr John Hunwicke shortly after his (Catholic) ordination.
Photos of Fr Lloyd of the Oxford Ordinariate celebrating in the Extraordinary Form.
Aware of a priest of the Coventry Ordinariate also doing so.
Would be very surprised if Msgr Burnham hadn't.
Thurible
Fr Bradley has celebrated in the Vetus Ordo for Juventutem UK; and Fr Heans has deaconed and subdeaconed for Fr Tim Finigan down in Blackfen.
[ 14. October 2013, 14:24: Message edited by: CL ]
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Slightly disingenuous
I don't think so! I didn't suggest that Mgr Steenson has any objection to the Old Rite. It is, after all, more than a thousand years old, and the best known representative of the Western Rite or Gregorian Canon. He just doesn't think Ordinariates should do it in Latin, as Anglican patrimony sought to escape from that.
I stand corrected with regards to these celebrations of the EF from Ordinariate priests which I didn't know about. That the Oxford people should do comes as no surprise to me. Fr James Bradley is a credit to the priesthood. I attended Mass in Latin in the Ordinary Form which he celebrated at St Mary's, Cadogan St. He was also present throughout Holy Week at the Assumption and St Gregory where he organised much of the weeks activities. A fine young man!
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
As a matter of curiosity from an outsider, is the Ordinariate resolutely utraquist
At last weeks Ordinariate Use Mass, things were as they used to be in traditional Anglican services. We knelt at the altar rail while the celebrant came by with the Host, saying: "The Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ which was given for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto eternal life." Then the server passed the chalice with the words, "The Blood of Our Lord jesus Christ which was shed for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto eternal life." We can expect this to be the way all such Masses are celebrated.
In all the Ordinariate Masses I've attended in the OF, the practice has been the same as that in many modern Catholic and Anglican churches. Kneel at the rail, if there is one, to receive the Body of Christ, while the server stands to the side with the Precious Bood for all who wish to receive it. I've never yet attended an Ordinariate Mass where communion under both kinds wasn't offered.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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PaulTH*
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# 320
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Posted
I apologise for disrespecting the Lord's name with a typo, and of course it's "preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life."
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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CL
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# 16145
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Posted
Paul, I didn't write that, LQ did.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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PaulTH*
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# 320
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Posted
Sorry CL. Two letters and the same avatar. I need to chek my vision!
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
I thought Our Lady of the Atonement San Antonio normally used the Book of Divine Worship. There is a former TEC parish in Arlington, TX that uses the OF Roman Rite, and in Houston there is Our Lady of Walsingham that I think was a BDW Anglican Use parish but which has gone into the Ordinariate and will thus use the new Ordinariate liturgy. I was told that OLA San Antonio had acquired so many Latin Rite Catholics who were never Anglicans that the parish would now have problems entering the Ordinariate as an entity, and hence will continue under the Special Pastoral Provision of JPII, which has not been revoked.
Are these understandings accurate or not?
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clotilde:
I too found it strange to read that the Ordinariate rite is all traditional language. Is this pointing to an ethos found in the Ordinariate as a whole? And if not is there not a danger such defining liturgy will form the Ordianariate in a specific direction - traditional and rather backwards looking.
Goodness, that would be such a terrible shame.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clotilde:
I too found it strange to read that the Ordinariate rite is all traditional language. Is this pointing to an ethos found in the Ordinariate as a whole? And if not is there not a danger such defining liturgy will form the Ordianariate in a specific direction - traditional and rather backwards looking.
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See Anglo Catholic congress books etc for sale on eBay at present. Do bid!
Interesting that that the Special Pastoral Provision Anglican Use for North America BDW had contemporary forms adapted from the TEC 1979 BCP Rite II. I would think that the adoption of a single Use for all the Ordinariates reflects a preference for traditional BCP language and forms in the USA and Commonwealth, and at the same time either the failure of the contemporary language rites in the BDW in a decade of actual usage, or else a determination to abandon something that was so specific to the most recent American BCP.
Interested in any reflections on this.
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I thought Our Lady of the Atonement San Antonio normally used the Book of Divine Worship. There is a former TEC parish in Arlington, TX that uses the OF Roman Rite, and in Houston there is Our Lady of Walsingham that I think was a BDW Anglican Use parish but which has gone into the Ordinariate and will thus use the new Ordinariate liturgy. I was told that OLA San Antonio had acquired so many Latin Rite Catholics who were never Anglicans that the parish would now have problems entering the Ordinariate as an entity, and hence will continue under the Special Pastoral Provision of JPII, which has not been revoked.
Are these understandings accurate or not?
I am not familiar with those details. I do know that the parish continues as an Anglican Use parish of the Archdiocese of San Antonio, and is not part of the Ordinariate. I am not privy to the reasons for that status.
I also know that the parish has had the OF Latin Mass for close to twenty years, if not more, alongside the Anglican Use Masses.
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CL
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# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I thought Our Lady of the Atonement San Antonio normally used the Book of Divine Worship. There is a former TEC parish in Arlington, TX that uses the OF Roman Rite, and in Houston there is Our Lady of Walsingham that I think was a BDW Anglican Use parish but which has gone into the Ordinariate and will thus use the new Ordinariate liturgy. I was told that OLA San Antonio had acquired so many Latin Rite Catholics who were never Anglicans that the parish would now have problems entering the Ordinariate as an entity, and hence will continue under the Special Pastoral Provision of JPII, which has not been revoked.
Are these understandings accurate or not?
I believe you are correct with regards to why OLA has not entered the Ordinariate at this time - the canonical can of worms was/is simply too big at the moment, though Fr Phillips has intimated that he hopes the parish will be able to join sometime in the future. As for liturgy at OLA, it was primarily BDW and with OF in Latin available; however it is my understanding that OLA and any other Pastoral Provision parishes that have remained outside the Ordinariate will also be adopting the Ordinariate Use as it now supersedes the BDW.
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Stranger in a strange land
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# 11922
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
According to a leaflet I have read about the Ordinariate, it is stated that Mass may be celebrated in the Ordinary Form and/or in the Extraordinary Form.
I've never heard of any Ordinariate priest celebrating Mass in the Extraordinary Form, except Oxford scholar Fr John Hunwicke shortly after his (Catholic) ordination...
I have celebrated in the EF, although not at an Ordinariate Mass but rather helping out the wider Catholic community.
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Antiphon
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# 14779
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Posted
I can't remember the exact details but I think I read somewhere online recently that the new Ordinariate eucharistic liturgy is not being made available online at the present time for pastoral reasons. Can anyone else clarify or expand on this?
I did wonder whether we would see a new official Anglican Use altar missal published in the near future, as well as people's Sunday and daily missals containing the new rite and scripture readings from the Revised Standard Version.
Does anyone know if such missals are planned for eventual publication? Also, what kind of altar missal is being used for the celebration of the new Anglican Use rite at the present time, for example in the Ordinariate mother church of Our Lady of the Assumption and St Gregory in London or perhaps in St Agatha's, Portsmouth? I assume that the new rite has now displaced the former liturgy in the Book of Divine Worship.
Is some form of temporary Ordinariate altar missal currently in use until an official one is published?
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
I doubt that there will be a published people's missal, at least in the next few years, because while the new AU Order of Mass will not have the seemingly endless number of options that the BDW has, the exact prayers used will still vary somewhat, I should think. Anglican Missal in the English edition? Anglican Missal in the American edition? English Missal? American Missal? Which translations of the Latin prayers?
I would expect that the new Order will nail these down somewhat, but only somewhat, as local customs vary considerably on these matters.
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
Thanks for sharing this, CL! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Very interesting indeed! I will make a thorough review in about an hour or so.
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