Ship of Fools: Methodist vestments

Thread: Methodist vestments Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Casineb (# 15588) on :

Apparently the C of E is allowing (or recognising what already happens in many churches) priests to ditch their robes. This got me thinking about the Methodist Church which, in my experience, doesn't use vestments.

British Methodists services I've attended have been led either be a lay preacher or a minister in suit and tab collar.

So is there generally an objection to the use of vestments in British Methodist churches? Does it vary based on geography? Would it be inappropriate for a minister in a church that has not used vestments to turn up to a service in alb or gown and bands?

I am aware that in the United Methodist Church (USA) there is a use of vestments, which is interesting. Is it generally just alb and stole?

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

No. Ministers in Methodism can wear vestments. I found this photo just to show some do but I do admit that they may be rare.

Jengie

Posted by Starbug (# 15917) on :

Presbyters (ordained ministers in the Methodist church) or deacons can wear vestments, usually for Holy Communion. Lay preachers don't have robes or vestments, as they aren't ordained and normally have regular 'day jobs' in addition to their preaching duties.

[ 28. December 2013, 17:05: Message edited by: Starbug ]

Posted by Casineb (# 15588) on :

What vestments would typically be worn for communion services?

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I have on rare occasions seen British Methodist ministers preach in robes. In the two cases I can remember the best, one is a very elderly retired minister who still preaches, and the other is a minister from West Africa who served as a local preacher in the UK.

Some Methodist clergy, especially the women and ministers who have been promoted into more senior roles, sometimes wear brightly-coloured stoles. And some of them like the big blingy crucifixes on chains, but again, this is quite rare for the average male minister.

I've noticed that Methodist clergy in ecumenical church meetings are more likely to be in everyday wear than CofE clergy. Ironically, though, the Methodist minister who jettisons the dog collar almost completely is probably much rarer than the CofE vicar who preaches without vestments. IMO this is because the influence of laid-back independent charismatic pastors has been greater in the CofE than in Methodism.

I get the impression that American Methodists are posher in general than British ones, so it doesn't surprise me that their ministers go for more distinctive clothing.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

I know of several Methodist ministers who wear cassock-alb and a stole of the appropriate colour of the season when celebrating communion.

I remember some years ago, the minister of my local Methodist church would wear a cassock with academic gown & hood when leading worship.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Maybe it varies from circuit to circuit, but I can't imagine any of the ministers in my circuit getting all dressed up like that - there would certainly be comment on it. I've never seen it in the Methodist churches I've attended in other cities either, and I've been a regular attender for most of my life.

If Methodist clergy do wear different colours at different times of the year the congregations are rarely told why. There doesn't seem to be a great consciousness around vestments, although perhaps it's different at the grandest Methodist churches, or those influenced by the close proximity of very high CofE congregations.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

There is a fine study of the issue of gowns versus vestments called 'Blackbirds of budgerigars' by the Methodist Sacramental Fellowship as a PDF .

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I remember some years ago, the minister of my local Methodist church would wear a cassock with academic gown & hood when leading worship.

This - without the hood - is what I remember from my childhood and what the previous Minister of the Methodist Chapel here in the New a Forest wore to ecumenical events.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

I forgot to mention I recently attended a funeral presided by a Methodist minister who was wearing a Geneva gown

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
There is a fine study of the issue of gowns versus vestments called 'Blackbirds of budgerigars' by the Methodist Sacramental Fellowship as a PDF .

Thanks for that! It's very informative as well as confirming some of my suspicions about 'cross-fertilization' as well as a certain free-for-all approach.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

I have been to a service at a large Methodist church in the West Midlands where the minister wore a blue cassock and I think this was her usual wear for services. No vestments though.

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

Is there a pond difference? My cursory understanding is that US Methodists tend to be slightly higher up the candle (They would wear alb/stole and even chausables!) than UK Methodists.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Is there a pond difference? My cursory understanding is that US Methodists tend to be slightly higher up the candle (They would wear alb/stole and even chausables!) than UK Methodists.

US Methodists have bishops, even!

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

It varies from minister to minister. Some wear suit and tie, others suit and clerical collar. Others wear some kind of robes/vestments. The traditional thing is cassock and bands (with gown, hood, scarf sometimes). I wear alb and stole (of the appropriate colour) at the Eucharist, Baptisms, funerals and weddings and cassock and bands most other things. Occasionally I add gown etc. to that if it's a more formal occasion.

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I've noticed that Methodist clergy in ecumenical church meetings are more likely to be in everyday wear than CofE clergy.

This is probably true but personally I always wear clericals to ecumenical meetings - a context in which there can be those who need reminding that Methodism "claims and cherishes its place in the Holy Catholic Church which is the body of Christ."

[ 29. December 2013, 07:11: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
This is probably true but personally I always wear clericals to ecumenical meetings - a context in which there can be those who need reminding that Methodism "claims and cherishes its place in the Holy Catholic Church which is the body of Christ."

Is this what's called assertive ecumenism, in contra distinction to the more fashionable "receptive" variety?

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

Exactly! It's far more fruitful [Big Grin]

[Though I confess to not having heard the term before... did you coin it or is it actually used?]

[ 29. December 2013, 07:32: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Is there a pond difference? My cursory understanding is that US Methodists tend to be slightly higher up the candle (They would wear alb/stole and even chausables!) than UK Methodists.
US Methodists have bishops, even!

Quite a few do world wide. I am the niece of a former South African Methodist Bishop of Kimberley, and Bloemfontein. I a pretty sure Namibia was not part of his patch.

Jengie

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

I've only seen Methodist ministers in Geneva gowns though I know some do wear cassock-alb and stole for communion. Some Methodists in the US want to move more towards being like Episcopalians. I've seen them wear black suit and clericals. They are obviously a minority.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Perhaps the setting has something to do with the appeal or otherwise of vestments. If you're a Methodist minister in a shabby 1950s church that's suffering from a bit of rot and crumbling paintwork then wearing grand vestments will probably look vaguely ridiculous. But in an imposing neo-Gothic Victorian building (or whatever imposing architectural alternatives there are in worldwide Methodism) it fits the bill.

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Exactly! It's far more fruitful

[Though I confess to not having heard the term before... did you coin it or is it actually used?]

It was an expression that came into my otherwise vacant head as I read your post. I wouldn't claim to have coined it, however - my capacity for originality is very limited - I suspect I heard it somewhere or another. It seems rather good though, don't you think? It accurately described my decision to use the Angelus as the pre-lunch prayer at the strategy session of the Church Investors Group at Baptist House, Didcot in 2012. What surprised me most was the extent to which the Baptists present were interested in it.

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

I operate as a Reader (Lay Minister) at our local Anglican Parish Church, which is an Ecumenical Partnership with the Methodist Church. This enables me to act as a Local Preacher in the local Methodist Circuit. When taking a service at a Methodist Church, I wear a cassock and my blue Reader's scarf (no surplice though). No-one has passed a comment of any kind - perhaps they are too polite.

An eminent Methodist Minister who lives in our Parish and sometimes presides or preaches for us does so wearing cassock and bands, and enjoys also wearing one of our selection of copes. Being tall and distinguished-looking, he carries this off with aplomb. My wife thinks he will be the first Methodist Pope.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Eirenist

I didn't know that CofE readers wore special clothing to preach. That's interesting to know.

It does sound from this thread as though my circuit is particularly Low when it comes to the vestments thing. Your wife's jokey comments about a Methodist Pope do indicate that there are some rather posh Methodists about!

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

C of E Readers are supposed to wear cassock and surplice, or alb/cassock-alb, with The Dreaded Blue Scarf (our badge of office, as it were), when officiating/assisting/preaching at services. Some Readers (myself included) even wear dalmatic or tunicle at the Eucharist*, if acting as liturgical deacon or sub-deacon!

*in which case, we leave off The Dreaded Blue Scarf, coz it would look silly/sillier....

Ian J.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Round this way, Anglican lay-readers tend not to wear any form of distinctive garb ... simply jacket and tie or smart dress if they're female ... but it will vary according to churchmanship, of course.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I'd be fascinated to hear from anyone who's been to a church where the Methodist lay preacher was dressed up in vestments! That would be exotic.

Methodist lay preachers tend to wear suits, or sometimes formal blouses and skirts for the women, but this is more due to age and status than churchmanship. Younger preachers are quite rare, but they're almost always less formal. However, I do remember one 30-ish blonde woman who preached in a suit with high heels and long red fingernails - certainly formal, but not in the usual retired schoolteacher mode.

I know of one female Methodist minister who wears heels in the pulpit, but it's rare. It's not a look that would suit the cassock-alb - or is it? Are there many CofE lady vicars who'd conduct worship dressed like this woman?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2242007/The-Vicar-wears-Prada-How-Rev-posed-fashion-shoot-dog-collar-caused-unholy- row-faithful.html

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

The Presbie lay speaker down the road from me wears a Geneva gown and stole. That's the best I can do. [Razz]

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

The mode for United Church of Canada clergy these days is alb and stole for everything, then cassock-alb and stole, then Geneva Gown (now vanishingly rare [Frown]

). The alb and stole overtook the Geneva gown in the 1960's. Ma Preacher's Ordination photo pictures her in a green chasuble over her cassock and stole. Keep in mind that most lay United Church members wouldn't know what a chasuble if it fell on them, nor any of its connotation.,

Around here, clergy are those fools people suffer for seven years until they move on, it's the Elders keep the church running for decades.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I'd be fascinated to hear from anyone who's been to a church where the Methodist lay preacher was dressed up in vestments! That would be exotic.

Methodist lay preachers tend to wear suits, or sometimes formal blouses and skirts for the women, but this is more due to age and status than churchmanship. Younger preachers are quite rare, but they're almost always less formal. However, I do remember one 30-ish blonde woman who preached in a suit with high heels and long red fingernails - certainly formal, but not in the usual retired schoolteacher mode.

I know of one female Methodist minister who wears heels in the pulpit, but it's rare. It's not a look that would suit the cassock-alb - or is it? Are there many CofE lady vicars who'd conduct worship dressed like this woman?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2242007/The-Vicar-wears-Prada-How-Rev-posed-fashion-shoot-dog-collar-caused-unholy- row-faithful.html

The priest in the article is in her streetwear, not choir dress or vestments - and given the black shirt it's unlikely that even she conducts services in those clothes. Most female clergy I've encountered are MOTR-to-high and would not conduct services in streetwear.

Posted by gog (# 15615) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Methodist lay preachers tend to wear suits, or sometimes formal blouses and skirts for the women, but this is more due to age and status than churchmanship. Younger preachers are quite rare, but they're almost always less formal. However, I do remember one 30-ish blonde woman who preached in a suit with high heels and long red fingernails - certainly formal, but not in the usual retired schoolteacher mode.

As to age of preacher and dress, most of the younger preachers I've know (including my self) would tend to go for suits when preaching. Generally turning up looking smart, and having made an effort. This done in the main so that untidiness of the person did not detract from the message they brought.

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I know of one female Methodist minister who wears heels in the pulpit, but it's rare. It's not a look that would suit the cassock-alb - or is it?

Knowing a few Methodist minister who wears heels in the pulpit, I'd say that it goes fine with the cassock-alb (if the item has been measured to be worn with heels).

As to the diversity of dress among Methodist Minister, looking back at the photos from ordination this last summer, of the group we have:
-3 in cassock and stole
-1 in suit and stole
-3 in suits
-2 in black dresses that have space for collars in them
So that is a likely good sample of the diversity among a group of Methodist ministers.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Casineb:
... British Methodists services I've attended have been led either be a lay preacher or a minister in suit and tab collar. ...

When you say 'tab collar' do you mean an ordinary civilian collar worn with a tie, or a clerical collar that is a sort of white plastic thing that can be inserted into a clerical shirt?

I've commented on the concurrent thread about CofE vestments that I can't see any conceptual difference between robing in the manner prescribed by the canons, and taking a service wearing a clerical collar. In both cases, the person leading the service is wearing something specifically reverend which ordinary people don't wear. So to my eyes, a Methodist minister taking a service in a clerical collar may not be as showy but is as much dressing 'clerically' as one wearing cassock, surplice, black gown, alb, stole, chasuble, cope or whatever.

On CofE Readers, I've been under the impression that the prescribed correct wear is a cassock, surplice and blue scarf, but never an alb of any sort. Some male ones wear a blue tie in the sort of situations when an ordained person would wear a clerical collar. I can see though, that a Reader who is doing something else, rather than something specifically Readerish might wear the clothes appropriate to what they are actually doing.

Posted by Casineb (# 15588) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
When you say 'tab collar' do you mean an ordinary civilian collar worn with a tie, or a clerical collar that is a sort of white plastic thing that can be inserted into a clerical shirt?

Plastic insert

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
On CofE Readers, I've been under the impression that the prescribed correct wear is a cassock, surplice and blue scarf, but never an alb of any sort.

Different dioceses stipulate different things but mine stipulates surplice and scarf.

However, given that everyone else in the sanctuary wears albs, I'd look odd in a surplice so i wear alb.

In my last parish, people wore cottas so a surplice would, again, look out of place.

Forward in Faith parishes have alb and blue scapular - i fancied one of those until someone told me that I would look like a dinner lady.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by gog:
As to age of preacher and dress, most of the younger preachers I've know (including my self) would tend to go for suits when preaching. Generally turning up looking smart, and having made an effort. This done in the main so that untidiness of the person did not detract from the message they brought.

Oh, they always look tidy! But that's not to say that their choice of clothing is utterly unmemorable. People have their favourite 'look', and their listeners notice. (Or maybe it's just me??) When young university students (not ministers in training) lead worship, for example, they go for a casual look that no one remarks upon, but on an older person that mode of dress would incite a few comments, I'm sure.

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

One of our previous Vicars liked all ministers to match so when functioning at the Eucharist Readers in our parish wore (and I continue to wear) an alb with blue scarf. God doesn't seem to mind.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

But our archdeacon DOES mind. One of my colleagues seems worried that she might turn up when he is in alb and scarf.

I'm not. if she makes a fuss, I'll ask her to buy me a new cassock that actually fits me. The one i wear now, for choral evensongs and cathedral do's is what I purchased when i was aged 16. i have grown since then.

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