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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Will there ever be effective gun control in the USA?
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
So sick of the endless gun violence in America. The NRA is a lobby for the gun and ammo industry. Welcome to capitalism in America. Yet, if the majority of the electorate truly wanted to see effective gun control laws enacted, one might think that they could express their collective will in the face of the cynical lobbying of the NRA. What will it take? Will it ever happen?
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
So sick of the endless gun violence in America. The NRA is a lobby for the gun and ammo industry. Welcome to capitalism in America. Yet, if the majority of the electorate truly wanted to see effective gun control laws enacted, one might think that they could express their collective will in the face of the cynical lobbying of the NRA. What will it take? Will it ever happen?
The (mythical) reasons for the 2nd amendment are #1: personal protection and #2: rebelling against the government. #2 didn't really work out. Someday, perhaps, US folks may figure out that #1 shouldn't mean there's a constitutional right to take 500 rounds of ammo to an elementary school or to have a gun even if you're blind.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
If only the Navy were allowed to post armed guards this could never have happened.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
Don't think it will ever happen, and considering the number of guns already in circulation I'm not sure what could be done unless there's a mandatory buyback - which honestly would probably end in a few nutjobs shooting at DEA agents screaming about freedom.
If kids getting murdered at school, repeatedly, wasn't enough, or people getting shot at while watching a movie wasn't enough, or many of the various tragedies we've seen over the years, then nothing is going to push the government to make serious changes.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
In short, NO.
Its not just the whole idea of getting a realistic interpretation to the 2nd Amendment, its the problem that so much of American culture has been based on the ready availability of firearms in a non-military setting.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
Changing the gun laws (or 2nd Amendment) is probably made more difficult by our system of representation, too- with all the states having an equal voice in the Senate, rural states can exert a lot more control than they would if it were only based on population.
What I can't understand is some people's insistence on absolutely NO restrictions on guns that are meant to kill humans. I can totally understand why people in rural areas want to be sure they can own hunting weapons, but why should people object to regulating handguns or even just big clips?
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I'm afraid we're way past any tipping point to retreat from where we are.
Plainly, the problem is something like this: so many people already feel that so much has been taken from them -- loss of wealth, loss of upward mobility, loss of opportunity, loss of "privilege," or what have you -- that this one "right" to firearms, with the cynical and deep-pocketed cupboard-love and support of the NRA & arms manufacturers -- is all some Americans feel they have left.
Before this will change in any positive direction, we will have to descend into something like a civil war. And frankly, I suspect that would only make things worse: we'll go all the way over to a police state "governing" a vast horde of oppressed, simmering, plotting malcontents.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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computergeek
Apprentice
# 17826
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Posted
I'm not trying to derail this topic, buy I wonder if there is any link to the US resistance to a proper system of socialised medical care.
To UK eyes, it is inexplicable why the richest country in the world, and supposedly Land of the Free, tolerates such low life expectancy and unequal medical care for its citizens.
Its as if the country suffers a collective blindness. And won't open its eyes to look at what other countries, rich and poor, have achieved in equalising access to healthcare.
Same with gun control.
What is it in the collective American psyche that can't see the obvious and act on it?
Posts: 16 | Registered: Sep 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The proposed changes after Sandy Hook, which reportedly had massive public support, still failed to get through. In all honesty it's hard to see 'better' circumstances for control and reform than those, and yet it still didn't happen.
Cf The Australian experience where our reforms happened after the Port Arthur massacre. If Sandy Hook wasn't enough, I shudder to think what might be.
It's also far too easy for people to say the solution is more guns, not fewer, and get away with it. Again, after Sandy Hook there were a lot of statistics flying around, to show just how astonishingly, abnormally high the rate of gun ownership is in the USA compared to the rest of the world and all the other things that point to the USA situation being abnormal (not least the sheer overrepresentation in gun massacres). But engaging in a Facebook conversation with a Texan friend and more crucially her fellow-Texan friends showed me that they still firmly believed they should go and get guns for protection.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I don't know the numbers on gun control, but people born after 1980, having come of age during a massive recession and quagmire abroad, have a significantly different political outlook than previous generations. Right now they don't have the clout to elect everyone they want, becuase the Baby Boom generation is so large, but they will sooner or later.
If it's any indication, just over 50% of them like the sound of socialism, which is kinda mind boggling. Changes are afoot.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
Different re healthcare, I think. Well, I guess there's distrust of government in both, so it is a relevant comment. But, I think a lot of the issue re healthcare is that Americans don't travel much, so people have no idea what single-payer would be like. I think most Americans really believe single-payer would cost them a TON more. They haven't a clue how much they're paying for healthcare already, because it's part of their salary re their job. I was reading an NPR article about COBRA.* Now NPR is the only place where I actually read the comment section. Not a bunch of raving lunatics at all, but people kept posting that COBRA sucked because the costs were unrealistic and exaggerated. Um, people, COBRA is about what you've been paying. It's just that before you didn't notice because your employer paid it--presumably instead of giving you that much more benefits/salary!
*If one leaves a job, one can keep one's healthcare through work sometimes. You just pay all the premiums one's employer paid, plus a small fee.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I don't know the numbers on gun control, but people born after 1980, having come of age during a massive recession and quagmire abroad, have a significantly different political outlook than previous generations. Right now they don't have the clout to elect everyone they want, becuase the Baby Boom generation is so large, but they will sooner or later.
If it's any indication, just over 50% of them like the sound of socialism, which is kinda mind boggling. Changes are afoot.
Your keyboard to God's ears, buddy. Do you have any stats on that? I know that the younger generation is saner, but I hadn't heard that applied to gun control or somethign you might call socialism. Do you have any stats on that? I'd hate to get too optimistic. Mind, people become more conservative as they age and acquire money, so perhaps the stats we really need are how 20s and 30s compare to previous 20s and 30s.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Invariably these shootings seem to be by 'quiet and reserved' seemingly perfectly ordinary people. So gun availability is the problem. Ordinary folk flip - gun to hand - unimaginable consequences.
I read that far more people were killed by toddlers setting off guns by accident in the USA than by terrorists.
It figures.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Your keyboard to God's ears, buddy. Do you have any stats on that? I know that the younger generation is saner, but I hadn't heard that applied to gun control or somethign you might call socialism. Do you have any stats on that? I'd hate to get too optimistic. Mind, people become more conservative as they age and acquire money, so perhaps the stats we really need are how 20s and 30s compare to previous 20s and 30s.
Shazam.
If this article is to be believed, it simply isn't true that people become more conservative as they age. People seem to make up their minds in their mid 20's and stick with it to the end. People born after 1980 have overwhelmingly made up their minds to head to the left.
quote:
"In 2010, Pew found that two-thirds of Millennials favored a bigger government with more services over a cheaper one with fewer services, a margin 25 points above the rest of the population. While large majorities of older and middle-aged Americans favored repealing Obamacare in late 2012, Millennials favored expanding it, by 17 points. Millennials are substantially more pro–labor union than the population at large."
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I don't know the numbers on gun control, but people born after 1980, having come of age during a massive recession and quagmire abroad, have a significantly different political outlook than previous generations. Right now they don't have the clout to elect everyone they want, becuase the Baby Boom generation is so large, but they will sooner or later.
If it's any indication, just over 50% of them like the sound of socialism, which is kinda mind boggling. Changes are afoot.
Zach, I certainly hope so. It would vindicate my own socialism, something that apparently only took root in my generation amongst a relatively small cadre of college educated, anti-Viet Nam War, actively pro-Civil Rights and pro-feminism children of the bourgeoisie. Maybe a generational change will mean something can be done about the unending proliferation of guns in American society. It seems to me that some fundamental sociological changes will have to set the stage for meaningful gun control in America; either that or something like an armed attack on Congress (don't you think if some shooters somehow managed to get into the House of Representatives and blow a shitload of the people's reps away, the politicians would change their minds about the need for gun control?). But in all likelihood, I don't see how we can make any kind of stable social progress in America until there is far greater and widespread economic security for a much larger proportion of the population. Unfortunately, it's hard to see how that happens. Again, maybe GenX or the Millenials will demand structural and systemic economic change; my Boomer generation seems incapable of collectively wising up.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Your keyboard to God's ears, buddy. Do you have any stats on that? I know that the younger generation is saner, but I hadn't heard that applied to gun control or somethign you might call socialism. Do you have any stats on that? I'd hate to get too optimistic. Mind, people become more conservative as they age and acquire money, so perhaps the stats we really need are how 20s and 30s compare to previous 20s and 30s.
Shazam.
If this article is to be believed, it simply isn't true that people become more conservative as they age. People seem to make up their minds in their mid 20's and stick with it to the end. People born after 1980 have overwhelmingly made up their minds to head to the left.
quote:
"In 2010, Pew found that two-thirds of Millennials favored a bigger government with more services over a cheaper one with fewer services, a margin 25 points above the rest of the population. While large majorities of older and middle-aged Americans favored repealing Obamacare in late 2012, Millennials favored expanding it, by 17 points. Millennials are substantially more pro–labor union than the population at large."
And there are some real studies there. Thank you!
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I don't know the numbers on gun control, but people born after 1980, having come of age during a massive recession and quagmire abroad, have a significantly different political outlook than previous generations. Right now they don't have the clout to elect everyone they want, becuase the Baby Boom generation is so large, but they will sooner or later.
If it's any indication, just over 50% of them like the sound of socialism, which is kinda mind boggling. Changes are afoot.
Why is it mind boggling? Scandinavian style socialism works really well by the evidence. And it should be obvious to anyone under 35 that the current system isn't working, and socialism is the only offer anyone has on the table.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Because, even if they are under 35 years old, they are still Americans.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Scandinavian style socialism works really well by the evidence.
Scandinavian-style socialism works because Scandinavian countries are significantly more monocultural than the US or UK. People there identify with each other a lot more than we do, and are therefore much happier with seeing other people get benefits they don't get.
Turn Scandinavia into the sort of multicultural melting pot the US or UK is, and I'd bet you'd see a lot less socialism being voted for.
In fact, now I think about it the declining popularity of socialism in the UK correlates pretty well with increasing diversity. Late 40s - not very diverse, very socialist. Now - very diverse, not very socialist. Interesting...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I don't know if that correlation holds. The Millenial generation is heading to the left in a United States that is increasingly diverse. Those who dream of a white, mono-cultural society tend to be republicans.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Maybe as we start to hit generations that have literally grown up with diversity, we start to see people who identify with other people even if they don't look the same as them. If that's what we're seeing in the US, it suggests that the time between diversity being introduced and socialism coming back into fashion is about two generations.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
And yeah, that too Gwai.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Antisocial Alto:
Changing the gun laws (or 2nd Amendment) is probably made more difficult by our system of representation, too- with all the states having an equal voice in the Senate, rural states can exert a lot more control than they would if it were only based on population.
What I can't understand is some people's insistence on absolutely NO restrictions on guns that are meant to kill humans. I can totally understand why people in rural areas want to be sure they can own hunting weapons, but why should people object to regulating handguns or even just big clips?
The NRA are the gun manufacturers bitch. The NRA knows how lobby lawmakers and stoke fear.
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Well, I have very strong doubts that most Americans mean the same thing by "socialism" that a European would. I think that explains some of what we are talking about.
Socialism - UK and Europe: Being responsible to your fellows.
Socialism - US: Damn Gubmint is taking over! Next step: Communism!
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Scandinavian style socialism works really well by the evidence.
Scandinavian-style socialism works because Scandinavian countries are significantly more monocultural than the US or UK. People there identify with each other a lot more than we do, and are therefore much happier with seeing other people get benefits they don't get.
You've explained why they have it, but not why it works.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Scandinavian style socialism works really well by the evidence.
Scandinavian-style socialism works because Scandinavian countries are significantly more monocultural than the US or UK. People there identify with each other a lot more than we do, and are therefore much happier with seeing other people get benefits they don't get.
Actually, the Scandinavian countries are usually held up as beacons of universal benefits, so people do get the benefits that they see others get.
However, I would be somewhat reticent about how well a Scandinavian-style system would work in the USA. Sweden has a population of 9.5 million and a GDP per capita of nearly £35,000 (about US$ 55,000); Denmark has a population of about 5.6 million, and a GDP per capita very similar to Sweden's (a bit higher, actually). Norway has a population of only five million, and a staggering GDP per capita of about £62,000 (nearly US$ 100,000), in large part because of its oil reserves; diminutive Iceland has a population of only a little over 300,000 (making it considerably smaller than Liverpool), and an admittedly lower GDB per capita of £26,550 (US$ 42,670).
The US, with its population 314 million, many times the combined population of all the Scandinavian put together. It's GDP per capita is US$ 49,965, which is more than Iceland but a hell of a lot less than Norway.
This doesn't mean that the US couldn't benefit from an enlarged welfare state (almost every sane observer agrees that it could), but it would be very difficult indeed to replicate the kind of results found in Scandinavia. Even countries like Germany, France or the UK would have a very difficult time of doing that. The US would be doing well if it could look a bit more like post-reunification Germany but with lower unemployment (and considerably fewer neo-nazis on the street and former Stasi types in the legislature, I might add).
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Scandinavian style socialism works really well by the evidence.
Scandinavian-style socialism works because Scandinavian countries are significantly more monocultural than the US or UK. People there identify with each other a lot more than we do, and are therefore much happier with seeing other people get benefits they don't get.
You've explained why they have it, but not why it works.
I don't think that's it. Scandinavian countries have much more equality that American, Canadian or UK societies. E.G, benefits such as childcare provided or mandated within workplaces, free post secondary education with even a stipend, and a wholeset of values to go with it. There people tend to think that the misfortunes of one are a community responsibility. The small city where one of my children did an exchange university year had more than 10 times more personnel per capita to help children struggling in school for example. They also decided that corporations were not going to, in general, be allowed to just take raw resources without proper royalties going to the people via their gov't. Thus, for example, Norway has a huge amount of investments and ability to provide the social benefits versus, say western Canada, where gov'ts struggle to balance budgets amid a current oil boom.
Bottom line for me: someone always gets rich and it is better if it is balanced among us all. -- I think it is better to talk of social democracy than socialism, because socialism contains a different meaning for many in the western hemisphere.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Socialism - UK and Europe: Being responsible to your fellows.
Socialism - US: Damn Gubmint is taking over! Next step: Communism!
This. The folks in Scandinavian countries never had the "Red Scare" propaganda pounded into their heads the way Americans of a certain age (shockingly, the same age bracket that seems to complain the loudest about "socialism") did.
Not every person that age bought into it, of course - but there seems to be some correlation there, to my mind.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
If only there were no navy this couldn't happen.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
*steps carefully around the pond war*
What I don't understand is, how if this guy had two firearms offenses, he still had a gun. I thought that would have been against US existing laws - after all you can disenfranchised if you have a criminal conviction can't you ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Well, I have very strong doubts that most Americans mean the same thing by "socialism" that a European would. I think that explains some of what we are talking about.
Most Americans haven't a clue what socialism is. Ditto social democracy. Nor the differentiation of these economic-political forms from simple reformist welfare statism on one end and Marxist-Leninist communism on the other.
[ 18. September 2013, 20:54: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
*steps carefully around the pond war*
What I don't understand is, how if this guy had two firearms offenses, he still had a gun. I thought that would have been against US existing laws - after all you can disenfranchised if you have a criminal conviction can't you ?
Republicans have made existing gun control laws utterly powerless. Sigh.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Well, I have very strong doubts that most Americans mean the same thing by "socialism" that a European would. I think that explains some of what we are talking about.
Most Americans haven't a clue what socialism is. Ditto social democracy. Nor the differentiation of these economic-political forms from simple reformist welfare statism on one end and Marxist-Leninist communism on the other.
Added to this is the fact that most Americans have had it pounded into their heads since birth that "America Is The Greatest Country In The World!" (and this with virtually zero experience of any other country -- most of us don't travel -- we can't afford it; few of us read, we ignore the news, we're almost all monolingual in American English, most of us mistrust and avoid people who are not "Real Americans").
We generally believe that our own personal life experience, however precarious or bumpy, is nevertheless superior to the quality of life experienced anywhere else on the planet, because to believe otherwise is UnPatriotic.
Add to that the fact that many of us never vote (while Republicans are busy making it more difficult to do so), have only the dimmest notion of how our government works or what it does or why ("Uuuuh, surveillance? Huh? Whut?"), and to the extent that we consume news at all, get a Disney-fied version of 1/2-hour network broadcast swill that's almost indistinguishable from Entertainment Tonight with lashings of right-wing hate-radio, together with an increasingly inferior public education system, and what do you get?
You get what we've got. It drives me mad.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
So sick of the endless gun violence in America. The NRA is a lobby for the gun and ammo industry. Welcome to capitalism in America. Yet, if the majority of the electorate truly wanted to see effective gun control laws enacted, one might think that they could express their collective will in the face of the cynical lobbying of the NRA. What will it take? Will it ever happen?
No. Americans are too trigger happy. "You'll not take my boomstick! Let's all bow to the contitution. We worship you O golden calf!" It goes something like that anyway.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Yet, if the majority of the electorate truly wanted to see effective gun control laws enacted, one might think that they could express their collective will in the face of the cynical lobbying of the NRA.
No. The way the legislative districts are gerrymandered right now, the far right of the Republican Party has created itself a huge sinecure. The majority of Americans could want something, but the majority in legislative district after legislative district is such as to shred any conservative who dares to vote for sanity.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
The Navy did have armed guards at the entrance to the base. They also had Shore Patrol units patrolling the premises. The deal of it was, the shooter had a valid ID that gave him access to the base.
The problem was there were so many red flags that should have stopped the shooter from buying a gun, let alone access to a military base. He had had several run ins with the law, he had sought help at two VA hospitals--though the VA claims he only sought medications to sleep. Just a couple of days before he bought the gun he had called police saying people were following him and using microwaves to control him (classic paranoid schizophrenia symptoms--though I would hasten to say not every schizophrenia person is a danger to others).
While the NSA has the ability to listen to every phone call and read every email, law enforcement is so disjointed the Navy did not realize just how dangerous this man was.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Yet, if the majority of the electorate truly wanted to see effective gun control laws enacted, one might think that they could express their collective will in the face of the cynical lobbying of the NRA.
No. The way the legislative districts are gerrymandered right now, the far right of the Republican Party has created itself a huge sinecure. The majority of Americans could want something, but the majority in legislative district after legislative district is such as to shred any conservative who dares to vote for sanity.
Made even worse by the Hastert rule, which won't let any House bills come to a vote unless a majority of the majority party supports it. With the Tea Party making every Republican representative terrified of losing his seat, it basically means nothing ever comes to a vote without support from the far right.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Made even worse by the Hastert rule, which won't let any House bills come to a vote unless a majority of the majority party supports it. With the Tea Party making every Republican representative terrified of losing his seat, it basically means nothing ever comes to a vote without support from the far right.
Boehner needs to grow a pair and buck the Hastert rule. Hahahahaah! Sorry, got a little disconnected from reality there.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Probably I'm full of it, but the attempts to even discuss gun control rationally usually end with someone being totally irrational. I think it is because Americans love guns and guns and related violence are part of their mythology and culture so much so that they really are not open to examination. Americans think settling their disagreements with guns is normal and reasonable, which seems to be one part of the equation, with the other parts being fear, foreboding and grief. Fear of minorities who've been mistreated, to control dissent and opinion, and isn't it actually encouraged by the ruling rich? Who thump patriotism, American rugged individualism and preparedness to die for one's country? The video games that tabulate body counts are an accurate reflection of the culture and myth. Media both leads and reflects culture. Always has.
So whether it is kindergarten children or people watching a movie or people at work, the killings are tolerated as simply part of the very fabric of society. It's what Americans do. Further, Americans are deeply distrustful of their conservative ruling elite - a description which to me appears to cover both parties, it's all cola whether branded as coke or pepsi. They say they need to be prepared to defend themselves against gov't, but that's not it at all. There's no threat around the world or at home, except from fellow gun-toting citizens (unless we start talking race, and how whites fear non-whites and want to be armed to defend against them). It's like Americans don't know how to deal with pain and sorrow except by violence.
I really knew that Americans were on to something really different and nutbar when I saw the recovered shot-in-the-head congresswoman Gifford get targeted by Palinites and Tea Partiers with "Get on Target for Victory in November. Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office. Shoot a fully automatic M-16 with Jesse Kelly." Link. Holy mother of satan.
I travel to the USA every year or two. The experience of being there is not so frightening as the gun violence suggests. But I worry about the paranoia expressed when I hang out with people met on trips. There's something deeply troubling with it.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Probably I'm full of it, but the attempts to even discuss gun control rationally usually end with someone being totally irrational. I think it is because Americans love guns and guns and related violence are part of their mythology and culture so much so that they really are not open to examination. Americans think settling their disagreements with guns is normal and reasonable, which seems to be one part of the equation, with the other parts being fear, foreboding and grief.
Please stop saying "Americans" when you mean "Some Americans." We do NOT all love guns, and we do NOT all think settling disagreements with guns is normal and reasonable. So cut it out.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
I travel to the USA every year or two. The experience of being there is not so frightening as the gun violence suggests. But I worry about the paranoia expressed when I hang out with people met on trips. There's something deeply troubling with it.
You worry about paranoia?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Made even worse by the Hastert rule, which won't let any House bills come to a vote unless a majority of the majority party supports it. With the Tea Party making every Republican representative terrified of losing his seat, it basically means nothing ever comes to a vote without support from the far right.
Boehner needs to grow a pair and buck the Hastert rule. Hahahahaah! Sorry, got a little disconnected from reality there.
NY Times front page today (Paywall) said that Boehner has yielded to the far right of his party in coupling the debt ceiling raise to the defunding of Obamacare under threats to remove him as Speaker. The Speaker said he had learned he had to listen to his party. So it will go to the Senate where it may or may not get blocked.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Made even worse by the Hastert rule, which won't let any House bills come to a vote unless a majority of the majority party supports it. With the Tea Party making every Republican representative terrified of losing his seat, it basically means nothing ever comes to a vote without support from the far right.
Boehner needs to grow a pair and buck the Hastert rule. Hahahahaah! Sorry, got a little disconnected from reality there.
NY Times front page today (Paywall) said that Boehner has yielded to the far right of his party in coupling the debt ceiling raise to the defunding of Obamacare under threats to remove him as Speaker. The Speaker said he had learned he had to listen to his party. So it will go to the Senate where it may or may not get blocked.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
most of us don't travel -- we can't afford it;
Even if you could afford it, you wouldn't have the time. Americans and Canadians alike were understandably flabbergasted when I explained that I had 6 months off work and was still getting half pay, but many were even jealous of my standard 4 weeks a year - effectively 5 in my case because I get the week after Christmas off without taking any leave entitlements.
When people are only getting 1 or 2 weeks leave a year, there's no way they're going to go on trips where a lot of travel is required just to get there.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
No. There's no real incentive to remove it and there's a real fear if you do
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
It seems like the most powerful argument in the gun debate is the slippery slope argument. It wins every time. If magazines are restricted, the black helicopters will come. If background checks are required, the government will then create a list of gun owners. And so forth.
The second most powerful argument in the gun debate is that some people are just evil and nothing can be done. When evil people crash airplanes, there's all sorts of new security rules. When evil people plot crimes on the phone, their conversations (and everyone else's) are recorded and / or analyzed. But when someone flips out and shoots a dozen people, well, that's just human nature and nothing can be done.
Guns are fetish objects in the USA. The average Canadian gun owner lives in a rural area and is protecting themselves and livestock from wildlife. A significant number of USA gun owners seem to believe they are preparing for a role in a post-apocalyptic Mad Max society or already living it. So the third, final, winning argument in the gun debate is that government always sucks and will always turn into either despotism or anarchy, so of course you'll need a gun. Or several. Big ones. And lots, lots, and lots of ammo.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
The thing is, gun violence has become so much more common in America, as has the personal possession of large arsenals. The "Wild West" in reality wasn't all that wild. Many towns prohibited the personal possession of firearms within their boundaries. Until fairly recent decades, people didn't engage in the conspicuous consumption of multiple gun ownership. My maternal grandfather, a Texas rancher born in the 1880s, owned one or two shotguns that were kept against the possibility of needing to shoot at coyotes or packs of marauding feral dogs. As I recall, he also had an old revolver that was more of a display piece with some other vintage western gear and may not even have been operable. I don't expect he was very different from other ranchers and farmers of his generation. With a single exception of one uncle who liked to hunt and owned a few hunting rifles, no one on either maternal or paternal sides of the family owned multiple guns, if any at all -- at most one or two low calibre rifles used for recreational target practice and kept unused in a cupboard for months on end, and maybe a single handgun kept hidden away, theoretically in the event of need for perssonal protection. This was true for members of an extended family whose class circumstances ranged from working class to bourgeois professional, and educational levels ranging from high school dropout to doctoral degrees. As far as I know, the current American love affair with guns dates from approximately the Reagan years, becoming increasingly more extreme over the intervening decades.
[ 19. September 2013, 13:03: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Magic Wand
Shipmate
# 4227
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Posted
A few observations about Americans (I am one) and their guns...
There is a substantial percentage of the American populace who believe that the modern world is dangerously unstable, and that we must be prepared to protect ourselves in the wake of some coming calamity (economic collapse, pandemic, massive solar flare, etc.) The government has tacitly encouraged this, both accidentally, in terms of being unprepared to respond to emergencies and natural disasters on a smaller scale, and deliberately, by telling the public that, in the event of an emergency, people should be prepared to survive without government assistance for the first three days or so. To an extent, this is a cultural follow-on from the days of living in the shadow of nuclear annihilation, which I recall all too well from growing up in the 1980's. This has been compounded by the demonstrated fragility of our economic system and physical infrastructure; that is, people can't count on having and/or keeping decent jobs or on being able to save for retirement, and our roads and electrical generation and delivery systems have seen better days.
Then there is the fact that both sides of the issue have the tendency to engage in rhetoric that makes finding common ground impossible.
Because of various historical and cultural accidents, and because of how the discussion is currently framed, I tend to believe that there is very little possibility of substantive gun control legislation being enacted. Perhaps if there was a mass shooting in a school or mall every week something might happen. Perhaps. But even then there is still the massive amount of weaponry that's out there. The fantasy of door-to-door confiscation is just that; the public would lose their stomach for such an approach after about the third shootout with an otherwise respectable citizen.
And it's not something that I think is likely to benefit from generational change. Most of my younger friends and co-workers, who are generally far more socially progressive than I am, are strong believers in private gun ownership. The people I know who are anti-gun ownership are mostly Boomers. While I certainly realize that the plural of anecdote is not data, this doesn't seem to be all that uncommon, at least in the suburban Philadelphia area.
Posts: 371 | From: Princeton, NJ | Registered: Mar 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Marvin the Martian: Scandinavian-style socialism works because Scandinavian countries are significantly more monocultural than the US or UK.
I've looked at a couple of sources (like this or this) and they all seem to say that Sweden is as culturally diverse as the UK.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
The thing is, gun violence has become so much more common in America, as has the personal possession of large arsenals.
Gun violence has been dropping for about two decades.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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