Thread: Black Pete: tradition or racism? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
I guess this discussion has reached the English-speaking world, and I wonder what you think of it. In three days, the Netherlands (and parts of Belgium and Germany) will be celebrating the children's party of Sinterklaas.

Sinterklaas was one of the models on which the Coca Cola Company based the Santa Claus figure. Sinterklaas arrives on his boat from Spain, rides on his white horse, and brings presents to the children, helped by his servants ... who are black.

The Black Pete tradition has been criticized before, but now Verene Shepherd from Jamaica, chair of United Nations' Working Group on people of African descent, said it was a "throwback to slavery". This lead to fierce discussions in the Netherlands.

My own opinion? I guess, to a degree Ms. Shepherd is right. Showing an entourage of only black servants like this is definitely a bit dodgy.

But on the other hand, I like Black Pete. They are funny, they are irreverend... they've always been my favourite Sinterklaas characters. And perhaps they were invented in an age where coloured people were seen more as an exotic curiosity than anything else.

I don't think that shouting "this is racist!" is going to help much. People will only dig their heels in. But I would like to find ways to move away a bit from the 'black servant' tradition. People have already been experimenting with Petes of all colours for example.

What do you think about cherished traditions that might raise our eyebrows a bit because of racism? (Or sexism, or homophobia...)
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
This is an ancient tradition from nearer home. (Bacup, Lancashire)

" The dances they perform are actually Folk Dances and the custom of blackened faces may reflect a pagan or medieval background which was done to disguise the dancers from being recognised by evil spirits afterwards, it may also reflect mining connections.

The picture is by no means clear and tales have been related by word of mouth, however, the dances are supposed to have originated with moorish pirates (hence the costume). Some of these sailors are said to have settled in Cornwall and become employed in local mining. As mines and quarries opened in Lancashire in the 18th & 19th century a few Cornishmen came North bringing with them mining expertise. It is with these people that the dances were reputedly brought to this area. In particular two Cornishmen who came to work in Whitworth."
 
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
So if something is traditional it can't be racist?

Why is the "tradition/racism" question always presented as an "either/or"? Historically it's usually "both/and".
 
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
If they are right in your wiki link, about the Odin trappings, why not reach back to that tradition. Have black Pete as a were-raven i.e. Dressed traditional doing the normal mischevious antics but wearing a raven carnival mask instead of blacking up. This, for example.

[ 02. December 2013, 19:22: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
Boogie: This is an ancient tradition from nearer home. (Bacup, Lancashire)
This looks interesting. Do you think it is racist?

(I'm also reminded for the countless times I've played the euphonium for Sinterklaas in cold november. These musicians have it a lot better [Biased] )

quote:
Crœsos: So if something is traditional it can't be racist?
That's not what I'm saying, and if I'm very honest, I have to admit that the Black Pete tradition probably is. When I said "shouting racism isn't going to help much", I was mainly focused on strategy.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
Doublethink: Have black Pete as a were-raven i.e. Dressed traditional doing the normal mischevious antics but wearing a raven carnival mask instead of blacking up. This, for example.
Yes, that would be interesting. Some groups have mostly been experimenting with Coloured Petes.
 
Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 
I think they're supposed to be chimney sweeps, not black people.
 
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
Well, we have elves - you could merge the ideas and have him green. Essentially you are transitioning from black servant to magical being.

I would favour the raven solution as referencing part of the older tradition rather than a totally novel element.
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
If they are right in your wiki link, about the Odin trappings, why not reach back to that tradition. Have black Pete as a were-raven i.e. Dressed traditional doing the normal mischevious antics but wearing a raven carnival mask instead of blacking up. This, for example.
You know, of course, that the realm of dwarves in Norse mythology is Svartalfheimr - "world of the black elves". It might be suggested that a myth of cunning, lying, cheating black dwarves is of itself racist, but that's countered with the charge of projecting modern sensibilities on ancient stories.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
daronmedway: I think they're supposed to be chimney sweeps, not black people.
Yes, this has been suggested at times. (They're not really chimney sweeps, but they climb down the chimney to bring the presents.) I'm not sure if people can get away with that, especially when the curly hair and the earrings make them look like a caricaturized black person.

BTW the Black Pete debate has reached Canada.
 
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
If they are right in your wiki link, about the Odin trappings, why not reach back to that tradition. Have black Pete as a were-raven i.e. Dressed traditional doing the normal mischevious antics but wearing a raven carnival mask instead of blacking up. This, for example.
You know, of course, that the realm of dwarves in Norse mythology is Svartalfheimr - "world of the black elves". It might be suggested that a myth of cunning, lying, cheating black dwarves is of itself racist, but that's countered with the charge of projecting modern sensibilities on ancient stories.
Regardless of later influences, after contact with black peoples - it is difficult to see how that could have originally have been a story about race pre such contact.

And I imagine maybe pete pre contact with black people may not have been the racial stereotype he is now - that might have been taken into the character later. But I think it is unrealistic to believe that you can now have black human like characters nowadays, that are not seen through the heritage of various abuses. We can not turn back the clock and simply assert that people must not see it like that.

[ 02. December 2013, 20:11: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
 
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
I guess we should all lighten-up!
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
Doublethink: But I think it is unrealistic to believe that you can now have black human like characters nowadays, that are not seen through the heritage of various abuses.
Exactly. Perhaps some characters didn't start out as racist stereotypes, but they give this impression in the present day. My solution would be to find playful ways to keep their essence, but that also destereotype them.


quote:
Kwesi: I guess we should all lighten-up!
Love the double meaning [Big Grin]

[ 02. December 2013, 20:15: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
When I said "shouting racism isn't going to help much", I was mainly focused on strategy.
Thinking about the historical record, I don't see that "pretty please would you mind considering that this might be racist" helps more.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
There seem to be multiple origin stories for the characters but a quick browse through Wikipedia says they and Saint Nicholas traditionally were supposed to live in Spain when they weren't visiting for the holidays. They are likely to represent Moors. At one time they were supposed to kidnap bad children and drag them back to Spain which says something about the Dutch experience with the Spanish empire as well.

I've seen some comments from Black people living in Holland who don't enjoy the stereotypes. While shouting "racism!" may or may not be effective, it's hard to see what else is going to make the tradition stop. The United States has some problematic traditions such as blackface Minstrel Shows and flying the Confederate flag that have encountered similar opposition. I do like the idea of changing them to another color; perhaps greens and things should be good for a while.

[ 03. December 2013, 04:21: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
When I said "shouting racism isn't going to help much", I was mainly focused on strategy.
Thinking about the historical record, I don't see that "pretty please would you mind considering that this might be racist" helps more.
You mean we shouldn't be sensitive the their insensitivity?
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
We can be as sensitive or as insensitive as we like but I suspect that without shouting nothing much will change.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
I know. My comment was more mild sarcasm. I do try to help people see, try to be gentle if they appear open. But it is just so frustrating at times.
 
Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I think they're supposed to be chimney sweeps, not black people.
From Wiki: "While in Schenkman's book the servant was nameless, Joseph Albert Alberdingk Thijm already made reference to a dialogue partner of Saint Nicholas with the name "Pieter-me-knecht" in a handwritten, unpublished text in 1850. Moreover, writing in 1884, Alberdingk Thijm remembered that in 1828, as a child, he had attended a Saint Nicholas celebration in the house of Dominico Arata, an Italian merchant and consul living in Amsterdam. On this occasion Saint Nicholas had been accompanied by "Pieter me Knecht ..., a frizzy haired Negro", who, rather than a rod, wore a large basket filled with presents. In 1859, Dutch newspaper De Tijd noticed that Saint Nicholas nowadays was often accompanied by "a Negro, who, under the name of Pieter, mijn knecht, is no less populair than the Holy Bishop himself"
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Chimney Sweep
Racist stereotype
Chimney sweep.
One of these things is not like the others.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Perhaps some characters didn't start out as racist stereotypes, but they give this impression in the present day. My solution would be to find playful ways to keep their essence, but that also destereotype them.
Yes. Our local coco-nutters could easily change their black to blue. Mind you, then they'd look exactly like smurfs.
 
Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
And lo! The origin of the Smurfs is uncovered: in essence they're blue golliwogs.
 
Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :
 
My own feeling on this is that my feelings on this aren't really very important. Ultimately it comes down to: how do black people feel about this? Particularly black people in the Netherlands? Bearing in mind that obviously black people are a large group and as such can have many different opinions. If someone asks a huge group of them, is there some kind of consensus? Does it piss them off? I'd imagine the answer is yes, but I don't know. Would they rather see this tradition disappear? If that is the case, it should go. Because people, and human experience, are more important than tradition - however fun white people may find that tradition.

[ 03. December 2013, 12:11: Message edited by: Liopleurodon ]
 
Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
My own feeling on this is that my feelings on this aren't really very important. Ultimately it comes down to: how do black people feel about this? Particularly black people in the Netherlands? Bearing in mind that obviously black people are a large group and as such can have many different opinions. If someone asks a huge group of them, is there some kind of consensus? Does it piss them off? I'd imagine the answer is yes, but I don't know. Would they rather see this tradition disappear? If that is the case, it should go. Because people, and human experience, are more important than tradition - however fun white people may find that tradition.
That's always a problematic question to ask and answer. Is racism an absolute? Or is it culturally based? The experience of those of African descent in Spain or other parts of Southern Europe are entirely different than in the US and Britain, particularly in the former Moorish regions. Are those from other regions with a different cultural background guilty of trying to impose our views on others?
(Note--I'm not talking about the gollywog carictures... those were clearly drawn from American culture and simply transferred overseas.)
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
Bearing in mind that obviously black people are a large group...
The point is well made.

Just to say that when I first read this I read "obviously black" as the descriptor of a large group of people. Twice. I was about to draft a reply asking why only the obviously black (presumably rather than the subtly black) deserved an opinion. Then I worked out what you were saying.

I don't think it's a great idea but I suspect you would find some black people who would prefer to live and let live. There's likely to be a generational divide also, with younger generations being less prepared to put up with it.
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
In the Netherlands St Nicholas is said to have come by boat from Spain.His servants were Moors and were/are represented by people who 'blacked up'
In Bavaria St Nicholas is often accompanied by a little (white) boy called Knecht Ruprecht.In Austria,however, he is accompanied by a (black) devil called Krampus.It is a question of good and evil - light and shade.Nikolaus usually has Krampus in chains but sometimes warns children
that if they are not good Krampus will get a hold of them.Adults,however, often prefer the Krampus figure and will play tricks on one another,blaming Krampus.
How do we deal with the problem of good and evil in stories which have sometimes been around for centuries ?
What should we do about Mozart's opera the Magic Flute - a story about light and shade,black and white where the evil character is a 'Blackamoor' ?
 
Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :
 
Yes indeed. It's obvious that black people are a large group is what I meant. I don't really know how you'd go about getting opinions, practically speaking. But I do think that the most important thing here is how black people feel about it. White people can talk all day (and often do) about how offensive something should be when it isn't about us (and by "us" I'm referring to myself as a white person, not speculating about anyone else on the Ship, which is more diverse than that).
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
When I said "shouting racism isn't going to help much", I was mainly focused on strategy.
Thinking about the historical record, I don't see that "pretty please would you mind considering that this might be racist" helps more.
But are those the only options?

In the Netherlands, municipalities have an influence on the Sinterklaas celebrations. Usually on a Saturday in November, each municipality holds an Entrance of Sinterklaas celebration for the children, where he arrives on his boat, the local brass band plays, the mayor addresses him in a speech...

Some municipalities have already switched to Coloured Petes in these celebrations. If enough of them do this, these could become a normal part of the Sinterklaas feast.

quote:
Liopleurodon: Ultimately it comes down to: how do black people feel about this? Particularly black people in the Netherlands?
Yes, I agree that this is an important question. Some organizations of black people in the NL have already expressed their discomfort with the Black Pete tradition, and I think we should listen to them.

Interestingly, I understand that on Curaçao the Coloured Petes tradition has already become normal.
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
When I said "shouting racism isn't going to help much", I was mainly focused on strategy.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Thinking about the historical record, I don't see that "pretty please would you mind considering that this might be racist" helps more.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
But are those the only options?
If you are an individual deciding whether to protest or not rather than a municipality with power to decide, then pretty much yes those are the options.

You say that municipalities have done changed things in some areas - presumably there were people who said that that sort of strong-armed, nanny-state interference was only going to entrench people in their positions.

However you spin it, in the end you have to choose between accepting that people are allowed to be racist if they want to, or that the state and/or protest groups have a legitimate right in interfering against the wishes of those people.

And I think those are the two main options. There's all sorts of befriending and education that can go alongside, but that's a complementary rather than an alternative option.
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
In Spain and the Spanish speaking world the Three Kings arrive on the evening of 5th January and distribute presents and sweets to children.By tradition the Three Kings come from the East and one of them is always black.Now this is not a black servant,but rather a black king (or rather a European 'blacked up'). Is this racism ?
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
Of course someone will object, and you have to take a view on how politically charged the environment is, but personally I've not including kingship in the list of negative black sterotypes. If the tradition is that one of the kings was black I'm all for it.

(Perhaps better still to get a black guy to be that king. Or to have a black guy whited up as one king and a white guy blacked up as another king. That would get them thinking.)
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:

(Perhaps better still to get a black guy to be that king. Or to have a black guy whited up as one king and a white guy blacked up as another king. That would get them thinking.)
Interesting thought. Not certain it would work, but interesting. Not sure how I feel about it either. A blacked up white person is a red flag for me.
I like Anthony Hopkins. But every time I think of his portrayal of Othello, I want him to put the makeup back on so I can slap it off.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
mdijon: You say that municipalities have done changed things in some areas - presumably there were people who said that that sort of strong-armed, nanny-state interference was only going to entrench people in their positions.
Oh yes, there were people who said this. But so far, the celebrations with Coloured Petes have mostly been received positively.

And frankly, if you don't like my way of dealing with this, then that's not my problem.

A couple of years ago, I was working with organizations of small-scale farmers in Central America (mostly Honduras). They are working on organical farming techniques, organization, income generation... They are doing good work.

However, most of these organizations also have machismo ingrained in their culture. They don't allow women to partake in their decision-making structures, the money that comes from the activities from the cooperatives go to the men, land titles are only in the name of the man so that the widow loses out when he dies...

I could have gone to these organizations and shouted: "You're all a bunch of sexists!" but I really doubt that I would have achieved something in this way.

Instead, I gave them tools. Tools about how you can discuss agricultural activities and income distribution with men and women together, tools about how women can be included more into the organization...

I couldn't force them to use these tools of course, and neither would I want to. But it is my (measurable) experience that this approach can give very good returns.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
I understand your point, LeRoc. However your Central American example is one of changing the underpinning of an entire culture whereas Black Piet is a small part of one celebration.
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
I also think different rules apply for an outsider approaching a group suggesting they change their way of looking at the world where the idea may well be unfamiliar and certainly perceived as foreign, versus dealing with a particular example of racism from within a society, particularly if one is a member of the oppressed minority.

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
And frankly, if you don't like my way of dealing with this, then that's not my problem.
Funnily enough, that's how I feel about those who would become entrenched in their position when I shout about racism.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
mdijon: Funnily enough, that's how I feel about those who would become entrenched in their position when I shout about racism.
What are you saying about me here? Do you want to continue this discussion in another place?
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
lilBuddha: I understand your point, LeRoc. However your Central American example is one of changing the underpinning of an entire culture whereas Black Piet is a small part of one celebration.
That's true. I just put it here as an illustration that shouting "This is racist/sexist/homophobe!" isn't always the most succesful strategy in dealing with a situation, even if this situation is racist/sexist/homophobe.
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
Now you've lost me.

You said earlier that shouting at people might not achieve anything and simply make people get entrenched in their views.

Later you say that it's "your problem" if someone doesn't like "my way" of dealing with the issue.

I'm just saying I tend to take the latter attitude that you describe in the first instance with regard to the racists, and I suppose also wondering how you select between those two attitudes for different situations.

What's to take offense over?
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
mdijon: I'm just saying I tend to take the latter attitude that you describe in the first instance with regard to the racists, and I suppose also wondering how you select between those two attitudes for different situations.
I'm having difficulties to parse your English. I don't know what "I tend to take the latter attitude that you describe in the first instance with regard to the racists" means.
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
You describe two different attitudes in different posts.

a) "I don't think that shouting "this is racist!" is going to help much. People will only dig their heels in."

and

b) "And frankly, if you don't like my way of dealing with this, then that's not my problem."

I'm saying I would personally adopt the latter option - i.e. b) - in the context of the OP where you were adopting a).
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
I came back to England, having been brought up in South Africa, in 1970. My community here hardly knew the term 'racist' and were very ignorantly so. When I became a teacher in 1978 the staff room was full of people who made openly racist comments and jokes. They hurt. I am white British but have many black friends.

My tactic was to say nothing - but this was noticeable and soon people asked why and I told them (gently). The culture changed over time - not just due to me, but I'm sure I did my bit.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
mdijon:
quote:
If the tradition is that one of the kings was black I'm all for it.
The tradition that one of the kings was African dates back to the Middle Ages. It has nothing to do with American golliwogs. So maybe all the places that have three white kings are guilty of racism and it should be compulsory to have a black king...?

If the Three Kings/Magi really existed, there is nothing inherently implausible in the idea that one of them was African. Some African kingdoms were quite rich, especially the ones involved in the frankincense trade.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Also I think this from mdijon:
quote:
...different rules apply for an outsider approaching a group suggesting they change their way of looking at the world where the idea may well be unfamiliar and certainly perceived as foreign, versus dealing with a particular example of racism from within a society, particularly if one is a member of the oppressed minority.
identifies part of the problem. I notice the chair of the UN committee is from Jamaica, not a Netherlander herself, though she may be expressing discomfort felt by black Netherlanders.

And being accused of racism by anyone when you (think you) are innocently participating in a cherished folk tradition is upsetting. It happened to someone I knew at university, who got yelled at by an African student when in his North-West Morris gear. For people who value these traditions and don't see them as racist, it's very upsetting to meet someone who instantly condemns them for participating and doesn't give them a chance to explain that they are not imitating the Black and White Minstrels.

On the other hand, if Black Piet and the blackface Morris teams do upset black people, I think the traditions need to change. It sounds like it will be easier to do with Black Piet; you just need to change it slightly, so that St Nicholas's servants are not all the same colour. Northwest Morris teams will probably have to give up blacking their faces altogether.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
mdijon: b) "And frankly, if you don't like my way of dealing with this, then that's not my problem."
So what you mean is this is what you would say to racists? Fair enough. I'm still not sure when you said "those who would become entrenched in their position when I shout about racism" whether that included me, but I'll let it go for now.

quote:
Jane R: And being accused of racism by anyone when you (think you) are innocently participating in a cherished folk tradition is upsetting.
I don't think you can avoid getting caught up in this tradition if you're in the Netherlands this week, especially with children. The Black Petes are literally everywhere.

What I would do if I were living with children in the Netherlands, is that I'd try to open up the discussion in their school if they couldn't have something like Coloured Petes (sometimes we call them Rainbow Petes) there. That would be a start.
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
So what you mean is this is what you would say to racists?
Well sometimes I would. Often I would think it without saying it. I wasn't calling you a racist if that's what you thought I was implying.

Instead, the point that I was directing at you was the contrast between a) "I don't think that shouting "this is racist!" is going to help much. People will only dig their heels in." and then later b) "And frankly, if you don't like my way of dealing with this, then that's not my problem.".

So I wondered why you advocated that the racists get the softly-softly don't-want-to-dig-their-heels-in but then later you expressed the "not my problem" approach.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
mdijon: So I wondered why you advocated that the racists get the softly-softly don't-want-to-dig-their-heels-in but then later you expressed the "not my problem" approach.
I've given reasons and examples of why I think my approach might work, you haven't reacted to any of that. You're just criticizing it giving it silly names without providing much content of why your approach would be better than mine.

And I really have to make an effort to get my head around what you're saying. The "not my problem" approach was directed to you, not to racists. You're comparing apples and oranges here.
 
Posted by JFH (# 14794) on :
 
I'd like to ask a question related to this: what is, in a non-American setting, the essential discomfort related to people making themselves out to look black (i.e. blackface of sorts) stemming from?

I am aware of global racism, of course, and about minstrel shows. However, I come from a country where those things were never really common. I also know of another parallel history in which jazz musicians commonly made themselves out to be black or white depending on the majority of the orchestra, in order to assimilate the colours of the orchestra. What I'm trying to point to is that there's at least one form of tradition in which whites painted black was not a negative form at all.

As such, whereas I think it's only reasonable to revise the traditions if people perceive discomfort from them, could there be traditions of blackface in Europe that are not essentially racist? If not, how come? Is it the oppression of the essentially Franco-Spanish-Portuguese-English slave trade history that makes any and all such traditions, even in unrelated countries, racist?

I do see the point of a global racist structure. Still, somehow it seems to me like Black Pete could actually be an integrating factor, a good black character (as he is perceived today, not of history) on par with the others in a rather white tradition (as opposed to exceedingly subservient or evil). I don't want to whitesplain in any way, but is it just the history of race charicatures that makes it racist? As such, how is it problematic in countries where racism has not been centred around minstrel shows? I'm sorry for being insensitively stupid, but I'd love to hear some more perspectives on this.

Respectfully,

JFH
 
Posted by AmyBo (# 15040) on :
 
I'm not sure how it works in a place that doesn't have the amount of racially-charged history (and present) that we have in the US, but as a USian I can't look at a Black Pete without feeling very sick.

From watching the Black Pete controversy story, I get the impression many whites in the places that have Black Petes are oddly naive about race relations. Like someone not from their own background is a storybook character and not a real person. It's an attitude that is sweetly naive coming from a child, but I'd expect adults to have a broader view of the world, and be able to make connections between Black Pete and some old-timey racism.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
As an American, deeply mired in the context of racism, I can't answer what a non-racist tradition might be. I can say that what might seem a "non racist tradition" seems to echo racism from what might be an over sensitive view.

For example, the "blacking up" of Jazz players would seem to reflect several parts of the racism here. Jazz is an American tradition, and I don't see "blacking up" for uniformity any different than Fred Astaire wearing Black Face to tap dance like Bojangles Robinson. It's meant as a tribute, but historically it's deeply embarrassing. Initially, Jazz Bands were segregated. It took some brave musicians to insist on playing in integrated bands with, and winning the argument because of their talent. Orchestra color uniformity doesn't escape the resonance of the racism even if it's meant as a tribute.

As for "Black Pete" being an argument for friendship, there is an underlying falsity. The original was a devil or a slave or a Moorish servant. To claim he is a friend, is about as good an argument as saying the Mammy character in Gone With The Wind is a symbol of great race relationships in the post war American South.

Finally, why not simply reverse things? Saint Nicholas can be a historical deep dark brown and you can make Black Pete white with black hair.
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
The "not my problem" approach was directed to you, not to racists. You're comparing apples and oranges here.
So why do I get less consideration than the racists? Why is it "not my problem" to me but "don't want them to dig their heels in by shouting at them" to the racists?

(By the way I've never understood the reason why comparing apples and oranges is a problem. I'm asking here what makes the apple get more consideration than the orange?)
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
As for "Black Pete" being an argument for friendship, there is an underlying falsity. The original was a devil or a slave or a Moorish servant.
That's how I feel about it. There is a racist message behind the black pete, as there is behind most examples of "blacking up", and I have a similar visceral reaction as AmyBo to it.

It seems to me such a crass and inexcusable display of casual racism that I can't understand any sort of negotiation over it. In the Netherlands most people should be well aware of the history of race, slavery and the likely sensitivities around this sort of thing, and the fact that it continues gives out the message "we don't care". I can't find myself caring much about the tradition in return.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Palimpsest:
quote:
I can't answer what a non-racist tradition might be. I can say that what might seem a "non racist tradition" seems to echo racism from what might be an over sensitive view.
I can't speak about Black Pete (I was vaguely aware of the tradition before this thread started, but have never been in the Netherlands around this time so have no personal experience) but I do know a bit about blackface Morris teams through having friends who were in them, as already noted.

There are two explanations usually offered for the tradition:

1. The original teams were miners. That's what they looked like at the end of a shift.

2. They black their faces as a disguise (if you're white, blacking your face IS a very effective disguise).

It's unlikely to be connected to the jazz tradition, or to American slavery; it is connected to the working class of northern English industrial towns and dates back to a time when there were very few non-white people in mainland Britain and race was not a domestic political issue at all (we exported our racism to other parts of the globe instead). So a Morris dancer with a black face is more likely to think of it as honouring his working-class ancestors, not as patronising or making fun of black people.

That's why they get indignant when accused of racism. Unfortunately, as the Black and White Minstrels and their ilk are far more widely known due to the relentless march of American cultural imperialism, most people who see a blackface Morris team nowadays will think of racism. That's why I think the tradition of blacking their faces will have to be abandoned.

NB I say 'he' because most of the Northwest Morris women's teams I have seen don't black their faces, though women who dance in mixed teams would.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
mdijon: So why do I get less consideration than the racists?
I'm sorry, we're not on the same wavelength here.
 
Posted by JFH (# 14794) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
[...]
For example, the "blacking up" of Jazz players would seem to reflect several parts of the racism here. Jazz is an American tradition, and I don't see "blacking up" for uniformity any different than Fred Astaire wearing Black Face to tap dance like Bojangles Robinson. It's meant as a tribute, but historically it's deeply embarrassing. Initially, Jazz Bands were segregated. It took some brave musicians to insist on playing in integrated bands with, and winning the argument because of their talent. Orchestra color uniformity doesn't escape the resonance of the racism even if it's meant as a tribute.

As for "Black Pete" being an argument for friendship, there is an underlying falsity. The original was a devil or a slave or a Moorish servant. To claim he is a friend, is about as good an argument as saying the Mammy character in Gone With The Wind is a symbol of great race relationships in the post war American South.

Finally, why not simply reverse things? Saint Nicholas can be a historical deep dark brown and you can make Black Pete white with black hair.
Regarding jazz musicians, thing is that it came out of a racist society - integrated bands would be outrageous at clubs and parties, so instead people both whitened up and blackened up in order to fit the occasion. I find it interesting in the matter because it brings up a situation in which being black was not necessarily less admired than being white (although of course in a greater sense this was a separate but equal kind of system), and in which there was the reverse movement as well, where black people used make-up to look white. It's also one of the few occasions I can think of a relatively value-less colour-changing. Being white wasn't more attractive in the jazz setting, but uniformity was a necessity and as such the musicians, black and white, helped each other achieve that by means of make-up. To use mdijon's words, there was no racist message behind the switching of colours, other than the "higher goal" of achieving uniformity in looks.

Regarding Black Pete's origin, I am not quite sure if that's relevant to modern people. We are today able to dissociate many things from their origins and use them anyway, some claim that that's what post-modernism is about and that that has led to great societal progress.

I could see an argument that racism is still so active that we cannot disregard any related traditions, but on the other hand, in Sweden Santa Claus is a development from the Christmas goat, which grew out of a symbol of the devil. Dutch children probably won't know and won't mind, although I can see how a tradition of blackface being taught to new generations might be, if left one-sided, complicated. Still, on the other hand Santa masks are also a form of white-face... From what I hear, Black Pete is Santa's helper but immensely popular on his own and nowadays a friendly character. I think the helper issue is complicated of course, but with other images in popular culture to turn it over, I don't see the image as unsalvagable.

Of course, you could change the looks of the characters. I suppose considering the race of the character as an attribute to be kept in the tradition might be a racist principle. Still, and unfortunately, I don't know if we will ever get past that. Call it branding or just the human being being centred on looks. I don't know if the best practical solution is to just reprogram traditions to not care about colours of the participants (although I recognize the fact that most are assumed to be white until proven otherwise), or to find or invent other kinds of characters to give the next generations an integrated pantheon to play with.

On a side-note and possibly a tangent, I recently found out that Hayao Miyazaki, the Japanese animator behind Spirited Away and many other utterly amazing animated movies, in his youth considered making an anime version of Pippi Longstocking. As awesome as this could be, looking at the concept art I felt somewhat disenchanted by the idea. I think it is related to the fact that Pippi did not seem Swedish anymore. Not necessarily just from the style and racial features, but from the way she moves and interacts. It's just not the way a Swedish person would move and signal things by body language, I think. I am not sure though, and it could well be that I have a racist idea of how the character should be. I suppose this could add in to the discussion of how we identify characters of tradition and literature, though, and how far we can remove their looks from what we think of them, without losing that sweet suspension of disbelief. (On a further side-note, I think Miyazaki could purchase souls from the devil with a version of Mio, My Mio by that same Swedish author.)
 
Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :
 
I have heard this thing about how many cultures don't really have a tradition of blackface and therefore it's ok - not just the Netherlands but France as well. In 2013? Really? Is there anyone who doesn't know that blackface is a thing that we don't do because it has a ton of connotations that upset people? The world is more internationally connected than it's ever been, and we're talking about people who live in Europe, not the on the moon.
 
Posted by Pooks (# 11425) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Doublethink: Have black Pete as a were-raven i.e. Dressed traditional doing the normal mischevious antics but wearing a raven carnival mask instead of blacking up. This, for example.
Yes, that would be interesting. Some groups have mostly been experimenting with Coloured Petes.
Is that racism against Orientals?
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pooks:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc: Yes, that would be interesting. Some groups have mostly been experimenting with Coloured Petes.
Is that racism against Orientals?
I don't see it in this way. Usually when there are Rainbow Petes, there are lots of them in different colours together, like here. Or people join different colours together on their face, like here. Also, I don't see someone with a face that's painted yellow necessarily as 'oriental'.
 
Posted by Pooks (# 11425) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't see it in this way. Usually when there are Rainbow Petes, there are lots of them in different colours together, like here. Or people join different colours together on their face, like here. Also, I don't see someone with a face that's painted yellow necessarily as 'oriental'.
Ok. That was a tongue in cheek question because of the colour stereotype representation issue being discussed on this thread. The point is that just because you don't see yellow as necessarily representing orientals, there are plenty of others who do. I am not arguing against the views being expressed on this thread one way or another. I am more interested in finding out where do we draw the line?
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
Pooks: I am more interested in finding out where do we draw the line?
I'm not sure if I can draw it perfectly either. To me personally, the problem of Black Pete isn't just his blackness, but the combination of his blackness, the curly hair and the big earrings, the fact that he's a servant (with the added possibility that he is in charge of punishing the children).

When there are more people together with their faces painted in different colours, especially if some of the colours have nothing to do with race like green or blue, and if other stereotypes are also absent (the person with his face painted yellow doesn't have mock sloped eyes for example), then I don't have a problem with it. I can even see it as a celebration of diversity.
 
Posted by JFH (# 14794) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I have heard this thing about how many cultures don't really have a tradition of blackface and therefore it's ok - not just the Netherlands but France as well. In 2013? Really? Is there anyone who doesn't know that blackface is a thing that we don't do because it has a ton of connotations that upset people? The world is more internationally connected than it's ever been, and we're talking about people who live in Europe, not the on the moon.
I think I see what you're saying, but I think there's also something to be said for the idea that your words could easily be rephrased as "a ton of Anglo-American connotations that upset Anglo-American people."

Whereas I don't think the "it's tradition" argument holds much water in itself and whereas I don't wish to support racism in any way, I do think that in such an internationally connected world we need to discuss to what extent we can appropriate each others' histories, and what place they should have in building unity and happiness among peoples.

Also, there's massive intersectionality. A charicature of a Turk has hugely different connotations in Germany (with a large Turkish working-class minority) and Greece (where the last Greek province was liberated from Turkey less than a hundred years ago). The same people can hold different roles. Admittedly, black people have generally, since the 15th century onwards, mainly been given subservient roles and as such it is reasonable to err on the side of respect there. Still, I would love to continue discussing what we can make of the histories and traditions. I think there's value to salvaging tradition and turning it to a tool of good, and thus we need to know what the optimal good is, in this internationally connected world.
 
Posted by JFH (# 14794) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Pooks: I am more interested in finding out where do we draw the line?
I'm not sure if I can draw it perfectly either. To me personally, the problem of Black Pete isn't just his blackness, but the combination of his blackness, the curly hair and the big earrings, the fact that he's a servant (with the added possibility that he is in charge of punishing the children).

When there are more people together with their faces painted in different colours, especially if some of the colours have nothing to do with race like green or blue, and if other stereotypes are also absent (the person with his face painted yellow doesn't have mock sloped eyes for example), then I don't have a problem with it. I can even see it as a celebration of diversity.
Sorry to double-post, but I just have to say that this seems like a great analysis from where I stand.

[ 05. December 2013, 13:53: Message edited by: JFH ]
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm not sure if I can draw it perfectly either. To me personally, the problem of Black Pete isn't just his blackness, but the combination of his blackness, the curly hair and the big earrings, the fact that he's a servant (with the added possibility that he is in charge of punishing the children).

When there are more people together with their faces painted in different colours, especially if some of the colours have nothing to do with race like green or blue, and if other stereotypes are also absent (the person with his face painted yellow doesn't have mock sloped eyes for example), then I don't have a problem with it. I can even see it as a celebration of diversity.
We were on a different wave-length earlier, but this sums up very precisely the issue for me.

quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
Admittedly, black people have generally, since the 15th century onwards, mainly been given subservient roles and as such it is reasonable to err on the side of respect there.
This is why I wouldn't buy the idea that this is an Anglo-American sensitivity. Black people were colonised, demeaned and enslaved by people from all over Europe.

This is a global issue that picks on a widely shared characteristic of Africans and those descended from Africans (i.e. black skin) - rather than a distinct portrayal of a particular ethnicity such as Turkish dress, which might have a particular sensitivity in Cyprus but not in the US, for instance.
 
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Palimpsest:
quote:
I can't answer what a non-racist tradition might be. I can say that what might seem a "non racist tradition" seems to echo racism from what might be an over sensitive view.
I can't speak about Black Pete (I was vaguely aware of the tradition before this thread started, but have never been in the Netherlands around this time so have no personal experience) but I do know a bit about blackface Morris teams through having friends who were in them, as already noted.

There are two explanations usually offered for the tradition:

1. The original teams were miners. That's what they looked like at the end of a shift.

2. They black their faces as a disguise (if you're white, blacking your face IS a very effective disguise).

It's unlikely to be connected to the jazz tradition, or to American slavery; it is connected to the working class of northern English industrial towns and dates back to a time when there were very few non-white people in mainland Britain and race was not a domestic political issue at all (we exported our racism to other parts of the globe instead). So a Morris dancer with a black face is more likely to think of it as honouring his working-class ancestors, not as patronising or making fun of black people.

That's why they get indignant when accused of racism. Unfortunately, as the Black and White Minstrels and their ilk are far more widely known due to the relentless march of American cultural imperialism, most people who see a blackface Morris team nowadays will think of racism. That's why I think the tradition of blacking their faces will have to be abandoned.

NB I say 'he' because most of the Northwest Morris women's teams I have seen don't black their faces, though women who dance in mixed teams would.
Face blacking for disguise was also associated with Rough Music , the Swing Riots and the Rebecca riots .

It is part of a long tradition of protest by the poor against the powerful, at the time it did have nothing to do with race. They were trying not to be hanged. I think it is somewhat different to those situations where there is an attempt to deliberately portray a racial stereotype - blackness is not always about ethnicity. Context is important.

[ 05. December 2013, 20:19: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
...Regarding jazz musicians, thing is that it came out of a racist society - integrated bands would be outrageous at clubs and parties, so instead people both whitened up and blackened up in order to fit the occasion. I find it interesting in the matter because it brings up a situation in which being black was not necessarily less admired than being white (although of course in a greater sense this was a separate but equal kind of system), and in which there was the reverse movement as well, where black people used make-up to look white. It's also one of the few occasions I can think of a relatively value-less colour-changing. Being white wasn't more attractive in the jazz setting, but uniformity was a necessity and as such the musicians, black and white, helped each other achieve that by means of make-up. To use mdijon's words, there was no racist message behind the switching of colours, other than the "higher goal" of achieving uniformity in looks.
Are you're saying that blacking up or whitening up isn't not admiring of one color or the denigrating of the other, but a celebration of segregation and the values of the racist society that would be outraged by integrated bands? That doesn't seem like much of an improvement over the naked racism and not something that should be perpetuated. It doesn't seem to me that you're escaping the curse of the racist past.

[mangled code repair]

[ 05. December 2013, 21:02: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
I would agree with the analysis that combination of curly hair, possibly Moorish dress and earrings changes the character from a fantasy figure to a caricature of someone from another, often oppressed, culture. Non human colors seem like a much better solution, unless they are too closely associated with a political party ( Here comes the Tory to punish all the bad children...)
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Here comes the Tory to punish all the bad children...
This is just ridiculous and unfair! The Tories do not come punish bad children, they come to punish all children. and adults and animals and
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
Palimpsest: Non human colors seem like a much better solution, unless they are too closely associated with a political party
No worries there, Dutch political parties aren't closely associated with colours. (When you have 30+ parties, you run out of colours pretty soon.)
 
Posted by JFH (# 14794) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Are you're saying that blacking up or whitening up isn't not admiring of one color or the denigrating of the other, but a celebration of segregation and the values of the racist society that would be outraged by integrated bands? That doesn't seem like much of an improvement over the naked racism and not something that should be perpetuated. It doesn't seem to me that you're escaping the curse of the racist past.

[mangled code repair]
I'm not saying it was not part of a racist society, or that it's a tradition that should be celebrated. However, it is a tradition in which white-face and blackface were 1) not done for entertainment purposes in themselves, and 2) equally common or at least valued in the same manner in the perspective of the performers. I'm not saying it's a tradition that should be valued, but I'm saying there are traditions of racial imitation that combine a relative form of racial equality (both had to adapt to societal standards in the exact same way) and neutrality with regards to what the facepainting was all about.

What I'm trying to say is not that this should be kept up, but that there are cases where racial imitations can be done without being racist. We can thus imagine such cases under specific circumstances. I wonder what we can make of that, if we're looking at creating a greater ideology of how society should view visual imitations of other races, or other groups, apart from the ones solely based on the racist trope of the "stupid black slave".

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Here comes the Tory to punish all the bad children...
This is just ridiculous and unfair! The Tories do not come punish bad children, they come to punish all children. and adults and animals and
In southern Germany, parents tell their children to be nice, or else the Swede will come and get them. 30 year wars tend to do those kind of things to societies.
 
Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :
 
Having just read this thread, I am very struck by the lack of mention of one group that seems to me to be relevant to two themes: Arabs. If Black Pete is a Spanish Moor then he is a North African Arab rather than a Sub-Saharan West African.

Also if one of the Three Kings is depicted as African, then one of the others is Asian and was traditionally understood to be Arabic. I can not remember which was which, but they represented the three continents known at the time and are also different ages (I think the European is generally old and the African young), presumably to portray the diversity of the Nations to whom Christ was revealed at the Epiphany.
 
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
My father's people were ethnic Germans living in Russia and Poland, respectively, and I seem to recall a "Black Pete" associated with the Weihnachtsmann in their Christmas traditions...but in my memory he wasn't human at all, but rather some sort of troll-like hanger-on who carried switches for disciplining bad children. I never thought of a connection to racism until several years ago when I happened upon a picture of the original St. Nicholas that included an African slave in the background. And I wonder whether that was just a coincidence.

[ 06. December 2013, 01:32: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
JoannaP: If Black Pete is a Spanish Moor then he is a North African Arab rather than a Sub-Saharan West African.
To be honest, I have no idea why Moors came to be seen as black.

quote:
LutheranChik: My father's people were ethnic Germans living in Russia and Poland, respectively, and I seem to recall a "Black Pete" associated with the Weihnachtsmann in their Christmas traditions...but in my memory he wasn't human at all, but rather some sort of troll-like hanger-on who carried switches for disciplining bad children.
Hmm... I don't know. In the Dutch tradition he is very much human. Originally he did carry a switch though, but his 'punishing' aspect has been much downplayed lately (rightfully so). Nowadays, he is mainly the person who throws pepernoten at the children for them to eat.

[ 06. December 2013, 01:51: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
JoannaP: If Black Pete is a Spanish Moor then he is a North African Arab rather than a Sub-Saharan West African.
To be honest, I have no idea why Moors came to be seen as black.
From Wikipedia:
quote:
The term "Moors" has also been used in Europe in a broader sense to refer to Muslims, especially those of Arab or African descent, whether living in Spain or North Africa. During the colonial years the Dutch introduced the name "Moor", in Sri Lanka. The Bengali Muslims were called Moor. [2] Moors are not a distinct or self-defined people. Medieval and early modern Europeans applied the name to the Berbers, North African Arabs, Muslim Iberians[3] and West Africans from Mali and Niger who had been absorbed into the Almoravid dynasty.[4]
In other words, "They all look alike" on steroids.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
quote:
Also if one of the Three Kings is depicted as African, then one of the others is Asian and was traditionally understood to be Arabic.
Umm... Turkish, surely? At the time of Christ's birth, Turkey was known as Asia Minor. And the whole of the Mediterranean area shared in Graeco-Roman culture; North Africa was just as much part of the Roman empire as Britannia was.

Of course if the Three Kings represent the three continents, Europe should be the youngest...
 
Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :
 
The Guardian has an article on precisely this subject today.
 
Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 
This , rather long clip whilst being funny, is also a good illustration of how unfathomable the tradition is to outsiders. I've known Dutch people, who have grown up thinking of Zwarte Piet as a perfectly normal traditional character say "Well, when you look at it like that it is a bit odd".
It has to be said that Zwarte Piet is a much more likeable character than Sinter Klaas, who is very sober and dignified and actually quite scary for little kids. Zwarte Piet is fun and playful and loved by every small child I have come across. Although the character has become increasingly controversial in recent years, even amongst the black population he is not universally despised. Although he is a stereotype a lot of people don't see the stereotype as necessarily negative and so are happy enough to go along with it.
 
Posted by Pearl B4 Swine (# 11451) on :
 
How about making one of the Christ-adoring "kings" a black woman ? King Betty in Ghana I love this story.

[ 09. December 2013, 17:44: Message edited by: Pearl B4 Swine ]
 
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
I've known Dutch people, who have grown up thinking of Zwarte Piet as a perfectly normal traditional character say "Well, when you look at it like that it is a bit odd".
Sure, but generally this seems to be the result of an assumption that racism is something that occurs elsewhere - largely due to not having faced up to the less savoury aspects of the Netherlands colonial past.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
quote:
Also if one of the Three Kings is depicted as African, then one of the others is Asian and was traditionally understood to be Arabic.
Umm... Turkish, surely? At the time of Christ's birth, Turkey was known as Asia Minor. And the whole of the Mediterranean area shared in Graeco-Roman culture; North Africa was just as much part of the Roman empire as Britannia was.

Of course if the Three Kings represent the three continents, Europe should be the youngest...
Except that in those days the Turks lived in Central Asia... they started moving west some centuries later.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
chris stiles: largely due to not having faced up to the less savoury aspects of the Netherlands colonial past.
This upsets me sometimes too, especially when I hear a politician bragging about "how we built up this country with our VOC mentality" [Mad]
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
ken:
quote:
Except that in those days the Turks lived in Central Asia... they started moving west some centuries later.
That's true - but most of these civic traditions seem to originate from mediaeval pageants. The Turks had got as far as Turkey by then...

[ 10. December 2013, 13:49: Message edited by: Jane R ]
 
Posted by Gildas (# 525) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
quote:
Also if one of the Three Kings is depicted as African, then one of the others is Asian and was traditionally understood to be Arabic.
Umm... Turkish, surely? At the time of Christ's birth, Turkey was known as Asia Minor. And the whole of the Mediterranean area shared in Graeco-Roman culture; North Africa was just as much part of the Roman empire as Britannia was.

Of course if the Three Kings represent the three continents, Europe should be the youngest...
I don't think that's true. Britannia was never terribly Romanised. And it certainly wasn't a province of the Roman Empire during Christ's lifetime. Even in the Roman provinces that were longstanding parts of the Empire there were differing degrees of Romanisation depending on social class, proximity to the centre and strength of religious belief and culture.

The Magi were probably Parthians but if you want to cast an Asian, European and African there's no real need to establish whether the child's ancestors would have been under the jurisdiction of the Roman Empire before casting them in the school nativity.
 


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