Ship of Fools: Did Anne and Joachim "do it"?

Thread: Did Anne and Joachim "do it"? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=026606

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

Posted elsewhere:

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If an "immaculate" conception = no original sin then you're saying that sexual intercourse is the original sin.

The dogma of the Immaculate Conception teaches that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was free of original sin from the moment of her conception. It does not teach that Mary was conceived by a method other than sexual intercourse between her parents. For once, the Wikipedia entry on the topic is instructive.

But I disagree with L'organist's thesis quoted above. Original sin arose quite outside of the sex act -- it was the result of an act of disobedience by the "first parents", Adam and Eve (Genesis 3). Sexual intercourse is not sinful (except in the eyes of some under certain circumstances, which we won't go into here).

One could just as erroneously say that because a man and woman "did 69" immediately after having intercourse, and nine months later their child was born with a cleft palate, then the act of "69" must have been the cause of the cleft palate. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc, the sages call it, don't they?

Discuss.

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

The Roman Catholic Church does not teach that Anna and Joachim did not conceive the Blessed Virgin Mary by sexual intercourse. Nor does it teach, at least now, that Original Sin is a result of the bad-ness of sex. (I think, in the past, some theologians and hierarchs said that sexual intercourse was the way Original Sin was "transmitted" but theology and doctrine are two different things). The BVM was sinless and full of Grace from the very moment she came into existence - ie., her conception. That belief doesn't really have anything to do with sex.

Posted by Francophile (# 17838) on :

Can I have the biblical reference to Mary's parents' identities please?

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Can I have the biblical reference to Mary's parents' identities please?

Um, there isn't one? Some denominations might think that means this thread topic is not important, but I don't.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

It's purely oral tradition.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet (1.5.166-7)

[ 09. December 2013, 18:40: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :

hosting

Hi, original sin isn't a Dead Horse, unless you want to discuss creationism/evolution or Biblical infallibility with regard to it. Could the OP please make clear whether one of these is intended, so that we know whether to move the thread or not?

thanks!
Louise

hosting off

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
It's purely oral tradition.

Ah, but their sex wasn't, or Mary wouldn't have been conceived.

The typical Orthodox icon of the Feast of the Conception by Anna of the Mother of God distinctly shows a bed, displaying for everyone to see exactly how Mary was conceived.

[ 09. December 2013, 20:18: Message edited by: mousethief ]

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

I saw a similar picture recently, but the caption was "Hold on there, Joachim, you'll need to wait an extra day this year."
[Biased]

(Since 8 December fell on a Sunday, the Feast of the Immaculate Conception is transferred to 9 December.)

Posted by Francophile (# 17838) on :

Funny, my 2013 diary shows the Feast of the IC as being on Sunday 8 December. It's a German published diary but gives the feast days in English and French as well as German.

Posted by Chesterbelloc (# 3128) on :

Perhaps this will help. Perhaps not, but.

Posted by Francophile (# 17838) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Perhaps this will help. Perhaps not, but.

Fascinating link (yawn)

Posted by Chesterbelloc (# 3128) on :

"Yawn"?

*Blink*

Ask a fascinating question...

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

In the Episcopal Church (and, I assume, other Anglican churches) the Feast of the Conception* of the BVM is not a Principal Feast (see BCP, page 15). The only Principal Feasts are Easter, Ascension, Pentecost, Trinity Sunday, All Saints', Christmas, and the Epiphany - and of course, most of those fall on Sundays anyway. The Holy Name, The Presentation, and The Transfiguration may also take precedence of a Sunday, as may the Patronal or Titular Feast of a church (unless it falls during Advent, Lent, or Easter).

*No "Immaculate" Conception for us!

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :

hosting

Ok the mystery's been solved - the question was directed here by accident from another of the boards. The subject belongs in Purgatory. So Purgatorial discussion from now onwards, please. If you want to discuss feast days, please start a new thread in Ecclesiantics.
thanks,
Louise

Dead Horses Host
hosting off

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
*No "Immaculate" Conception for us!

Nor us. And we celebrate the feast on its original day, December 9. You can read all about it on this most admirable and well-written blog.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

The Immaculate Conception (usually just Conceição) is a big feast in Brazil; she is the Patron Saint of the nation. Within Candomblé, Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception is usually identified with Iemanjá, the spirit of the Sea, and a lot of people go to the beach to offer her flowers. It's very beautiful.

[ 10. December 2013, 15:46: Message edited by: LeRoc ]

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The typical Orthodox icon of the Feast of the Conception by Anna of the Mother of God distinctly shows a bed. . . .

Caption Competition, anyone?

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

What exactly was the OP asking again?

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The typical Orthodox icon of the Feast of the Conception by Anna of the Mother of God distinctly shows a bed. . . .
Caption Competition, anyone?

That icon clearly shows that they are dancing. What would their great nephew (a Baptist) think of that?

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

The Immaculate Conception proves that you can't catch sin from being sexually conceived.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
The Immaculate Conception proves that you can't catch sin from being sexually conceived.

Actually it claims that everyone catches sin from being sexually conceived unless God steps in and makes a once-in-the-history-of-the-world saving catch.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0