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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Witnessing at work
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
I'm in a job (working with vulnerable people) where it is specifically forbidden to initiate a conversation about religion - or any other controversial subject, for that matter. Even carrying on a conversation on these themes that the client has initiated, is rather frowned on.
I must admit that I tend to compartmentalise my life into professional and personal, and keep my trap shut at work, unless someone overtly asks me whether I am a Christian or believe in God. Of course, I feel a bit guilty about it, and then there are all the little thoughts about compromise and cowardice and "being ashamed of the gospel" etc.
Of course, it's one thing for Christian leaders, who are not involved in the secular world, and have the comfort of their captive audience - their "choir", as it were - where they feel at liberty and comfort, to hector others into doing what they would not have to do. It's quite another to actually do it. ("Secular world", in this context, does not include being a hospital or prison chaplain, for example, because those are jobs which everyone recognises involves religion. I mean, being someone who is an ordinary 'secular' worker, who has to go out of his or her way to witness to what s/he believes).
Question to all you Christians (or those of other convictions - perhaps even "active atheists" who want to share their views), who are ordinary "non-religious" workers in the secular world: do you try to share what you believe with customers and colleagues?
If so, how do you go about it?
Is it an issue that bothers you?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I'm a teacher. I'll discuss my faith if the topic comes up, but I don't go out of my way to introduce it to the conversation. I'm also very careful about how I present things to students, particularly as I teach science. I will point out that there is nothing incompatible about accepting scientific evidence and believing in God and being a Christian.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Having lived and worked in those settings, what I usually try to do is to pray God will open doors, and then to live in such a way that those around me ask of their own accord why i am different (often in the wake of some trouble in their own lives). I don't mean ostentatious Christianity stuff, like public prayer etc. Rather the fruit of the Spirit (patience, kindness, gentkeness, and so forth). Seems to work pretty well. And no one complains when it's their own question you are answering.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
In my former bureaucratic existence, we tended to be careful about things such as politics and religion. Religious commemorations were permitted and there was Merry Christmasing and Barukh Eid and a Happy Diwali and so forth, with sharing of treats. Witnessing was frowned upon, and the existence of the two bible-reading (one French, one English) groups was known to very few, although I had seen the meeting places posted in the departmental intranet.
I was subjected to witnessing on two occasions, one time with an earnest young CBC (not the broadcaster, Canadian born Chinese) finance officer asking me if I were willing to let The Lord into my heart. We couldn't discuss this between 8.30 and 5, I told her, but if she were at the 8 am at Saint Vartan's on Sunday, we'd give her a psalm or two. And I had a Seventh-Day student hand me a calendar with recipes, letting me know that she could discuss it further and I told her that I was too post-Levitical in my eating habits to make the conversation useful.
On one floor, the witnessing was a bit stronger, and a young Jewish officer came to me for advice. I had a quiet word with the director in that division and suggested that we would not want a Hostile Workplace situation, and she then had a quiet word with the evangelizing employee, and peace was restored. Canadian Jews have a high proportion of holocaust-survivors and their families, as well as the descendants of the Russian and Bessarabian pogroms, and there is a heightened sensitivity to any whiff of proselytisation.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Having lived and worked in those settings, what I usually try to do is to pray God will open doors, and then to live in such a way that those around me ask of their own accord why i am different (often in the wake of some trouble in their own lives). I don't mean ostentatious Christianity stuff, like public prayer etc. Rather the fruit of the Spirit (patience, kindness, gentkeness, and so forth). Seems to work pretty well. And no one complains when it's their own question you are answering.
This. During my working life I found that living a life that exemplifies Christ while not actively "witnessing" that even those I worked with who were hostile to Christians who were actively witnessing would ask about my faith after watching and then seeing I wasn't going to hound them.
Most workplaces these days do have policies either discouraging or downright forbidding discussing of controversial topics like politics or religion. Those policies tend to keep morale higher and the workplace more productive.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Absolutely not permissible in my work (therapy), although I have had many an interesting discussion about religion, spirituality, and so on. But too much personal revelation not good, especially with vulnerable people.
I've never really understood this idea about being able to discern Christians either - I know some incredibly patient and compassionate colleagues, who are not Christians, or not religious. But it comes with the territory I suppose.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Question to all you Christians (or those of other convictions - perhaps even "active atheists" who want to share their views), who are ordinary "non-religious" workers in the secular world: do you try to share what you believe with customers and colleagues?
Does wearing some sort of "symbol of affiliation count"? Many years ago, teaching in a poly, I was called in by my boss for wearing a CND badge. He suggested it might have an affect on 'young minds'.
My view was that people assumed that not showing some evidence of your views meant you agreed with the mainstream opinion. I wanted to show that some of us at least didn't. I was grudgingly allowed to continue to wear my badge. Several other staff joined in and probably several students renounced their CND membership on the spot.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
I absolutely despise someone telling me I'm going to burn in Hell if I don't accept Jesus as my personal lord and pocket sized savior. I also despise when people drop a lot of "Praise Jesus!" or "Praise God!" into every other sentence or hint around, trying to find out if I'm a believer in Jesus (I am, but I strongly suspect I have a whole different take on Him than a bible thumper) or what manner of godlessness I subscribe to. I don't share my thoughts about God unless someone asks me and only when we're in the break room or outside of work. It's not appropriate during working hours, unless a tornado is bearing down on us (I live in the southern United States where this is a common occurrence) or the end of the world is happening. I'd much rather keep my mouth shut and SHOW God's love than to open my mouth and ruin it... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Having lived and worked in those settings, what I usually try to do is to pray God will open doors, and then to live in such a way that those around me ask of their own accord why i am different (often in the wake of some trouble in their own lives). I don't mean ostentatious Christianity stuff, like public prayer etc. Rather the fruit of the Spirit (patience, kindness, gentkeness, and so forth). Seems to work pretty well. And no one complains when it's their own question you are answering.
Yes! This is a great answer! A lot less sarcastic and snotty than my answer! Ah, Lamb Chopped, I always learn so much from you. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
I would absolutely never in a blue moon discuss religion with a customer/client/whatever you call them at work. It would be deeply inappropriate. However I find that religion is usually a topic of much debate and argument with my colleagues, usually about 3 in the morning on a quiet night shift when we've finished discussing politics and the evils of our management. In my team I have a fundamentalist atheist and the discussions we have are generally considered good night shift entertainment.
Whether that counts as witnessing I don't know.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
If people at work ask me what I did at the weekend I might mention I went to church but that's my limit. I think "witnessing" too overtly puts people off and does a lot more harm than good, whereas unshowily being a decent human being gives a good impression. (As others have said better than I.)
Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Me too Helen-Eva. Just occasionally though someone asks about it. Conversations like this happen naturally and are to be welcomed.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
This is more or less my way too.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I've little to add other than this sobering thought ...
My brother, in his more full-on evangelical days, once worked in a depot for a major utility/service. He made sure while he was there that he 'witnessed' to everybody he worked alongside. You'll know the kind of thing if you've ever been a GLE ...
He left the depot and was posted somewhere else. A few years later, he returned to work there for a while and was struck that whilst everyone remembered him, none of them could remember that he was a Christian nor that he had - in his view - earnestly 'witnessed' to them so assiduously ...
Make of that what you will.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
When co-workers ask what I did at the weekend I tell them and if they are sick then I'll say that I'm hoping and praying for them. In a workplace that is overwhelmingly scientific I've had precious few knockbacks in about fifteen years, but then most people are pretty civilised too.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So there is something additional to being a good worker, colleague, subordinate, boss ? To being kind, generous, tolerant, going the extra mile, patient, honest, forgiving ? Or these things need an agenda ?
I've already failed today getting exasperated with my 83 year old mother.
She needs telling about Jesus all right.
In my voice. Body language.
What else ?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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tomsk
Shipmate
# 15370
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Posted
Opportunities present themselves from time to time. The thing to create the opportunities has been to allow people to know I am - e.g. if people ask what I did at the weekend, or where I went on holiday at Easter, I can say to church or Spring Harvest. It's fairly low key, but I think of it as witnessing. I have one colleague who asks about it quite a lot.
On the other hand, it is possible to conceal your faith. I have a colleague who I think is Christian but has never volunteered any info about it or joined in conversations about it.
Peter says something about being able to explain yourself. I think there's a balance between being a covert and overly overt Christian. The kind of workplace you're in will make a difference, but on the whole it should be possible to share something of yourself with colleagues.
Posts: 372 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2009
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
In my workplace, I am the site/facility/location manager (team of 25) and so I absolutely can't allow boundaries to become blurred.
However:
- I have small wooden cross on my desk shelf, in an open plan office.
- I tell people what I'm doing at the weekend if (and only if) they ask
- I can't talk with people in quite the same way I would in the parish or among friends. But I can listen in the same way.
- I blog irregularly on the company national intranet with 150 words on 'looking sideways at life' - not overtly religious, but a bit of deeper thought in a sea of corporate bumph. As a result, I was once contacted by a car-based co-employee from the other end of the country who needed to explore his inexplicable urge to stop off at country churches.
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
I'm openly a Christian at work and will talk about my faith if people specifically ask. But for me the best witness is to act with integrity and to try as far as I can to be the same person at work that I would be at church and vice versa.
I'm very far from perfect so people see my warts 'n' all but hopefully if people see me making certain moral choices at work in terms of how I treat people (or don't respond in kind to office politics) then they associate this with my faith.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
I'll just Leave this here...
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
"Do you know Jesus?", I was asked this once years ago at work. I answered "it is highly unlikely that I believe precisely as you do" which thankfully closed it, and thankfully the individual left me alone. I thought later that it might have been good to add "and I consider such matters private".
My thoughts were that I also do not discuss my bowels nor sexual behaviour with co-workers; this is equally private. Similarly avoidance of giving and receiving of health advice is also advised at work.
Quiet living by example and answering reasonable questions only when asked is far better than professing anything on your own, as some others have suggested.
[ 27. December 2013, 00:33: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I'm paid to do it at my workplace
Me, too.
Still, dealing with a variety of faiths, the AA aphorism, Attraction Not Promotion, is my watchword.
That and remembering that bit about the Holy Spirit in the Trisagion Prayers, 'who art everywhere present and fillest all things.'
It does me good, when I get to cranking up my evangelism engine, to remember that, whatever the spiritual health of my interlocutors that the Holy Spirit has been hard at work long before I showed up on the scene.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
This. There has to be prepared earth for the news to fall into. Someone who has heard about God/bible/Jesus as everyone I've ever met has, at least superficially, needs to be willing to listen from a new perspective if it's not going to be the same old, same old...
Excuse me, it's 4.30am.
People already know, and have chosen to reject it.
What country do you live in, no prophet?
I can't imagine someone seriously asking if I know Jesus... it would make me giggle.
So, I'm a teacher, working with difficult kids.
Two interesting points here.
One, it's a small private school initially set up by a Methodist minister and his wife, to cater for boys who were rejected by the education system of the 1950s. Our school was grounded on very strong Christian beliefs, but these days all the senior staff are non believers.
Two, surprising numbers of pupils come from church going homes, and on one occasion a boy told me to 'shut the fuck up about things you don't understand' because he had been 'dragged to church every week of (his) life' and therefore there was nothing I could tell him about Christianity.
[ 27. December 2013, 03:44: Message edited by: Taliesin ]
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Taliesin:
Canada, western Canada to be precise. The demographics historically is small town, immigrant population, farm base, now increasingly urban. There's a lot of rather personal comments about everything in the small town culture of the Canadian prairies and it has become what often happens in cities also.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
As a teacher, I have always been very, very careful not to cross the boundary and proselytise the children/ students.
As one of the few/ sometimes only Christian in various schools, I was often asked to do the "God" bit in assemblies as I was comfortable with it and others weren't. This was in the days when assemblies were required to be "broadly Christian" in nature. I was often asked by the students if I believed in God and had some quite remarkable conversations, always staying within the boundaries of responding to their questions.
As regards colleagues,everyone knew I was a Christian because of "What did you do at the weekend?" type of staff room chat.
As as been said above, my aim was to try to live in such a way that people brought the topic up with me and then to sensitively answer their questions like Peter says about giving a reason for the hope we have. One colleague used to download his hatred of Christianity (he had good reason)on me. We are still good friends almost 20 years later. He has mellowed and very supportive of my work here but still raises negative questions with me!
I've ended up listening a huge amount and doing all sorts of things such as sitting in hospital rooms with seriously ill colleagues and even praying at a deathbed.
Always, always taking my lead from them but humbled by what can happen.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I'm still puzzled by this idea of Christians living in such a way, that others ask them questions. What does this involve? Does it mean that Christians are unusually patient, gentle, compassionate? I must have missed all that in my short happy life!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm still puzzled by this idea of Christians living in such a way, that others ask them questions. What does this involve? Does it mean that Christians are unusually patient, gentle, compassionate? I must have missed all that in my short happy life!
The most unusually patient, gentle, compassionate people I have met are not Christians.
I have a visceral dislike of the word 'witnessing' - maybe because the RL people I know who use it are somewhat self righteous, and rather lacking in tact and understanding.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
It's really quite simple. I don't want other people to try to convert me to their religion/philosophy/diet plan when I'm at work, so it behoves me to give them the same respect and not try to convert them to mine.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I find that being in a church choir or other church-related activity is what drives people to ask questions, rather than the faith itself. And that's OK by me.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl
quote:
I'm still puzzled by this idea of Christians living in such a way, that others ask them questions. What does this involve? Does it mean that Christians are unusually patient, gentle, compassionate? I must have missed all that in my short happy life!
I agree, some of my colleagues used to put me to shame...so for me it has involved being willing to apologise when necessary!
But I don't think it's about being a saintly presence more about being a normal human being whose life is anchored by a faith which forms me....Another aspect has been holding back from jumping in and giving an opinion and using a staff room debate as a preaching platform but rather listening and waiting to be asked what I think. I was often asked "You're a Christian, what do you think about...." and sometimes I would answer with an opinion but sometimes with "I just don't know....."
I also hate the word witnessing.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye MrsBeaky. As it would involve being martyred by the authorities. None of us is going to be weird enough to alienate our colleagues with damnationism hopefully.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm still puzzled by this idea of Christians living in such a way, that others ask them questions. What does this involve? Does it mean that Christians are unusually patient, gentle, compassionate? I must have missed all that in my short happy life!
Sometimes it involves showing mercy--like when your archenemy screws up massively in a staff meeting and the others around the table are waiting for you to skewer him--and you don't. That raises some eyebrows.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
As folks have already said, simply being 'nice' (by which I mean kind, thoughtful and so on) is often no more than our non-Christian colleagues do. To add to Lamb Chopped's great example of something godly that is more counter-cultural, how about deliberately not seeking credit when it is legitimately due to you?
ISTM that drawing attention to one's own part in a team triumph is very much part of contemporary corporate culture, so intentionally drawing attention to the contributions of our colleagues (even potential rivals for promotion) can be, I think, a powerful witness to our faith.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
South Coast Kevin: quote:
To add to Lamb Chopped's great example of something godly that is more counter-cultural, how about deliberately not seeking credit when it is legitimately due to you?
Women are expected to do this all the time and are often regarded as overambitious if they draw attention to their achievements. If you're female, this isn't counter-cultural at all; and if there are any corporate weasels in your team you may not need to worry about 'deliberately' not seeking credit; the weasel will take all the credit that's going whether s/he deserves it or not, unless actively prevented from doing so.
Also, is it really 'Christian' to allow someone else to take credit that is due to you, thereby giving senior management the impression that the other person is better at their job than they really are?
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
People aren't really saying that not retaliating, and not taking credit for one's achievements, are uniquely Christian, and will raise eyebrows, are they?
Gulp, double gulp, actually. Where have you been living?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm still puzzled by this idea of Christians living in such a way, that others ask them questions. What does this involve? Does it mean that Christians are unusually patient, gentle, compassionate? I must have missed all that in my short happy life!
Sometimes it involves showing mercy--like when your archenemy screws up massively in a staff meeting and the others around the table are waiting for you to skewer him--and you don't. That raises some eyebrows.
While malevolent skewering is not healthy for anyone, sadly in a testosterone-infused environment, letting such situations pass in silence is not seen as a kenotic expression of Christ-like virtue, but an advance signal of submission to further abuse. While that might be the road to individual saintliness, it degrades the working environment for others.
The late Nelson Mandela, like George Orwell, is often now quoted by a very broad range of folks, but his example is perhaps a useful one. He often turned the discussion from the question on the table to a more essential one (e.g. from why-did-George-bomb-on-that-client to what we are trying to do with in our work with clients and our ways of pursuing that goal).
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
"Uniquely"? Meh. "Unusual" is what we're after here. Question-provoking. Not "beyond the ken o' mortal men."
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
South Coast Kevin: quote:
To add to Lamb Chopped's great example of something godly that is more counter-cultural, how about deliberately not seeking credit when it is legitimately due to you?
Women are expected to do this all the time and are often regarded as overambitious if they draw attention to their achievements. If you're female, this isn't counter-cultural at all; and if there are any corporate weasels in your team you may not need to worry about 'deliberately' not seeking credit; the weasel will take all the credit that's going whether s/he deserves it or not, unless actively prevented from doing so.
Also, is it really 'Christian' to allow someone else to take credit that is due to you, thereby giving senior management the impression that the other person is better at their job than they really are?
That's a good example, but I've worked with a ton of people who couldn't retaliate, if their life depended on it, and couldn't or wouldn't take any credit or pride in their own achievement. In fact, I've tried to help them in this regard, so that they could learn to retaliate! (Goes under the name of ego-strength).
Oh well, I suppose it's an endless argument really, but I'm just surprised that anyone would be thought to be a Christian because they weren't assertive or aggressive. The world is full of non-assertive and non-aggressive people - as you say, that was traditionally women's role - but it also applies to some men.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
...and the situation I had in mind did not involve submitting to abuse, but rather what happens when one's persecutor stuffs it big time, perhaps by losing a major contract through sheer unmitigated personal idiocy--and you have the perfect opportunity to rub it in with an oh-so-witty remark that would further humiliate him--and everyone expects you to--and you don't.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Women... are often regarded as overambitious if they draw attention to their achievements. If you're female, this isn't counter-cultural at all; and if there are any corporate weasels in your team you may not need to worry about 'deliberately' not seeking credit; the weasel will take all the credit that's going whether s/he deserves it or not, unless actively prevented from doing so.
Being a man, I probably need to do that 'check my privilege' thing here, but in places I've worked and among my friends (some of whom have worked in various large organisations) I've not got the impression that women in particular are not expected to draw attention to their achievements.
On the general point, the weasel might well take the credit but should that be of concern to a Christian, if they're taking credit solely at our expense? On the other hand, if they're taking credit which is due to others then it seems to me entirely Christ-like to draw that to the attention of the management.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
To take Christ himself--he'd never stoop to this, but if it were me, I'd have the helluva time not making one of my resurrection appearances at Caiaphas' house, just so I could snap my fingers under his nose and say, "SUCKAH!"
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Over in our corner of Christendom we tend to trust the Holy Spirit to put us in the right place at the right time to be a "witness to the truth that is in us" instead of desperately going after individuals to "save" them (not in our job descriptions) because we somehow think that we and we alone am responsible for saving them (see above) and that God is going to smite us for not saving them. Those are not images of God and of the work of the Holy Spirit that I find to be consistent with the witness of Scripture.
In my past workplace situations, I have only ever "witnessed" verbally in situations where religion was a topic being discussed by another person -- usually someone asking me if/where I go to church or some ethical question or some question inspired by some religious goings-on in popular culture. Very matter-of-fact stuff.
Non-verbally, I'd hope that my behavior on the job was something that would underline, not undermine, my self-identification as a Christian. My biggest weakness in this regard is a tendency to walk away from or remain silent in discussions involving bigotry or gossip or other destructive things rather than confronting people; I'm a bit cowardly in this regard, although I am inspired by the advice someone once gave me to, in the midst of catty chat about some non-present coworker around the water cooler, murmur something like, "That's funny; I've only ever heard him/her say nice things about you." Peer pressure can be intimidating, and for various reasons I tend to shut down when I'm around it instead of try to fight it.
I'm kind of with St. Francis regarding "Preach Christ always; use words if necessary."
[ 27. December 2013, 17:11: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
South Coast Kevin: quote:
On the general point, the weasel might well take the credit but should that be of concern to a Christian, if they're taking credit solely at our expense? On the other hand, if they're taking credit which is due to others then it seems to me entirely Christ-like to draw that to the attention of the management.
If it's OK to complain about them taking credit which is due to others, surely it's OK to complain about them taking credit that's due to you? I can think of a number of situations where allowing someone else to take credit for something you did might lead to problems later down the line (eg: incompetent surgeon allowed to screw up repeatedly because the rest of the surgical team cover for him, until the day everyone who knows about his 'little problem' is away and a patient dies). And as Augustine points out, not sticking up for yourself could be a signal to the workplace bullies that it's OK to abuse you.
Maybe you do need to check your privilege; or maybe you've just been unusually lucky in your work colleagues.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
Going up to an earlier post about not sharing faith because the person is a mental health counselor, I have shared my faith a couple of times, given the situation.
Once in a group therapy situation, I had a participant who really felt he was going to hell because of all the sins he had committed. I let the group react to the person, but they did not seem to be reaching him. Finally, I asked if he would like to hear what I believed. I shared that I believed God wears glasses. The cross is etched on those glasses. Because of those glasses I know that when God sees me, he not only sees who I am, but he also sees the cross of Jesus. This seemed to help the man understand Christianity in a different way. I invited him to discuss this more with me if he wanted to. We did talk a couple of more times privately about this, but I made a referral to a chaplain if he wanted to follow up even more.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
If it's OK to complain about them taking credit which is due to others, surely it's OK to complain about them taking credit that's due to you?
I think there's a difference; the former line of action is about sticking up for the disadvantaged, while the latter is about sticking up for ourselves. I think the former is always a Christ-like thing to do but the latter might not be.
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I can think of a number of situations where allowing someone else to take credit for something you did might lead to problems later down the line (eg: incompetent surgeon allowed to screw up repeatedly because the rest of the surgical team cover for him, until the day everyone who knows about his 'little problem' is away and a patient dies).
I know there's no neat dividing line here, but I'm not talking about covering up for people's mistakes. I just mean that saying (as would, on the face of it, seem perfectly reasonable), 'Hey, I played a part in this success; it wasn't all about you' might not be what God would have us do.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I think not standing up for one's accomplishments is indeed a problem for women in most societies because of the way we're enculturated; and I think some people, regardless of gender, are naturally socially non-aggressive and likely to be taken advantage of by more ambitious coworkers. I don't think it's a necessarily healthy interactive behavior, especially if it causes the person emotional or professional injury...it's one thing to happily choose to be the quiet worker bee who takes care of things behind the scenes without expecting kudos, and someone whose serial lack of recognition for work done because s/he has difficulty asserting him-/herself in a group creates depression, frustration and stress, and also creates boundaries to professional success. So I don't think I'd use that as an example of Christlike behavior. And I don't see Jesus being particularly self-effacing in the Gospels; his focus may be on God, not on himself, but he asserts himself with this critics and otherwise "owns" who he is and what he does.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
What Lutheranchik said.
Perhaps the problem is that you can't imagine a situation where you yourself might be among the disadvantaged, South Coast Kevin. I can.
[ 27. December 2013, 22:19: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
What Lutheranchik said.
Perhaps the problem is that you can't imagine a situation where you yourself might be among the disadvantaged, South Coast Kevin. I can.
Well, being male I don't have the gender-based disadvantage that you've noted. But I'm really not a good self-promoter or networker; I can easily envisage that some achievement of mine has not been noted by the management.
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
[I]t's one thing to happily choose to be the quiet worker bee who takes care of things behind the scenes without expecting kudos, and someone whose serial lack of recognition for work done because s/he has difficulty asserting him-/herself in a group creates depression, frustration and stress, and also creates boundaries to professional success.
Yeah but... The way of Christ is to consider other people's needs above our own, isn't it? If this creates a boundary to professional success then I just see that as one of the sacrifices that following Jesus might entail.
If it's depression, frustration and stress, well that's difficult... I acknowledge again that this isn't black and white - there's no obvious dichotomy between assertiveness and craving recognition - but if someone is struggling to follow some instruction of Christ (pick any of his instructions that there's little dispute about), would we say they shouldn't try to follow it if that effort is causing them pain? That can't be the answer, can it?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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