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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Chav Christianity
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Came across this rather interesting article in my twitter feed. What are your views? I have some issues with it - whilst I think Owen Jones' book Chavs was necessary and think that 'chav' is very much an example of modern classism, I think there are nuances that the article misses. For a start, it ignores by far the biggest working-class denomination ie Roman Catholicism. Particularly in the North-West, this is often mostly working-class (although the way RCs identify as RC even if not practicing surely has an impact there). Also, while I do think that the UK is far from universally middle-class, I think that the 57% number is possibly a little high. The working classes are also a complex group, just as the middle classes are (not to mention the differences between rural and urban class divisions). My paternal family - v working-class Catholics from the West Midlands - is a very different kind of working class to those labelled 'chavs', but we're still working class.
Carl Beech is a Baptist minister I believe? Can any Baptist Shipmates shed light on class issues in UK Baptist churches? Would be interested in the differences, if there are any, between BUGB Baptist and non-BUGB Baptist.
From an Anglican perspective, the ordination system in particular seems to be spectacularly biased in favour of the middle-class - issues there. Whilst I don't think priests should be matched to the class of their congregation exactly, I do think the priesthood as a whole should be reflective of the church as a whole, which is not happening. Even in 'inclusive' churches, it seems to be inclusive when it comes to gender/sexuality but class/race etc is not even on the radar. It should be. What can the CoE do to tackle this? Would be interested in the perspective of non-CoE Anglicans - how diverse are your churches? Episcopalians in both the US and Scotland seem to be almost universally rich and white, is this the case?
*detects possible dissertation subject*
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
From the article:
quote:
Two main criticisms come out of the idea that the Church is largely middle class. The first is that we have overlooked the working class in mission, or done mission in a way that limits and undermines working-class culture.
Having read the article, I'm none the wiser as to what 'working class culture' is supposed to be (as distinct from 'middle class culture') other than perhaps modes of dress and speech (which I don't think are necessarily worth protecting or preserving).
I'm uneasy with the underlying assumption that middle class people, by virtue of being middle class, are unable to relate to working class people or vice versa. That said, there's a brilliant Billy Connolly sketch in which he argues that aristocrats and the working classes actually have lots in common, with both looking down on middle class pretensions. If that's true, perhaps we need to look to the nobility to 'reach out' to the council estates...
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
This has always interested me, since I grew up on a tough estate near M/c, where the only visible religious people were Irish Catholics. I don't recollect any neighbours or relatives who were religious.
Anyway, I then went to a very posh school, and to my amazement, there were all these posh religious kids. Well, we had fun taking the piss out of them!
As far as I can see, the English working class largely gave up on religion after about 1800, whereas the middle class hung on. How much of this was due to respectability and so on, I don't really know.
Anecdotology - one of my grandads had a deep and abiding hatred for anything to do with religion; I suppose he saw them as posh toffs, who looked down on the plebs, and of course, in WWI, told them to get on with being killed. So the clergyman was linked to the squire and the officer class, probably rather unjustly.
But yes, Catholics were seen quite differently, and I suppose, as rather alien, although in Lancashire there were/are deep Catholic roots, not just from the Irish immigrants.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Even in 'inclusive' churches, it seems to be inclusive when it comes to gender/sexuality but class/race etc is not even on the radar.
Shouldn't that read especially in 'inclusive' churches?
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Episcopalians in both the US and Scotland seem to be almost universally rich and white, is this the case?
No.*
*Rather, there's enough truth in it to recognize the stereotype, but not enough to be true. The Episcopal Church in the USA is a lot more diverse than its reputation of yore would suggest. It has, for instance an entire Diocese for the Navajo and presences in many other tribal areas. In fact, if we look at the ethnic demographics of the Episcopal Church in the United States and compare them with those for the entire country, we see:
- Native American/American Indian people are represented in the Episcopal Church at about the same ratio as in the general population (0.8 vs 0.9)
- Pacific Islanders and Native Hawaiians are overrepresented in the Episcopal Church by a factor of 7 (0.2 vs 1.4).
- African Americans are notably underrepresented, at only 6.4% of the Episcopal Church, as opposed to 12.6% of the entire country. However, this has to consider also the fact that there are several denominations in the United States that are almost exclusively African American.
- Hispanics (of any ethnic background) are enormously underrepresented in the Episcopal Church as compared to the entire nation (3.5 vs 16.4). However, this is hardly surprising given that 68% of American Hispanics are Roman Catholic, with a plurality of the remainder being evangelical Protestants or pentacostal and only 5% belonging to 'mainline' churches.
In contrast to their closest ecumenical partners, the Evangelical Lutheran church (which is 97% non-Hispanic White) the American Episcopal Church is a veritable multi-ethnic rainbow. Social class is harder to determine, but on my trips to the US (which are fairly frequent), Episcopal parishes seem to mirror their communities, with perhaps a slight bias toward the professional middle classes.
As for the SEC, my impression is that it's very much a minority faith without a strong correlation to social class. As one Scottish friend put it, the stereotype is that the Roman Catholics are all working class as the Kirk is very middle class, with the Piskies floating awkwardly somewhere in the middle.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Carl Beech is a Baptist Minister working for Christian Vision for Men.
Some Baptist churches are very mixed socially and racially: some aren't - its impossible to generalise. We've planted a lot on estates perhaps more so than other denominations. We encourage everyone to get involved perhaps that helps attraction and cohesion?
Many (at least 1/3rd) wouldn't make you (and others) happy as they would follow a "traditionalist" line on human sexuality. In the new Jerusalem there are 22 different nationalities and people from a wide range of job and social circumstances. We have a ministry to our local area which includes the prostitutes on street corners. We have a big ministry to those with mental health issues and work with the council on lots of things designed to address deprivation. Does that make us a varied church - yes but it could be better.
Non BUGB Baptist are much more likely to be homogenously middle class congregations.
FWIW I always put my occupation as labourer even though I'm Revd EM. I've worked as one anyway as well has having degrees from one of the two oldest Universities in the UK. What class am I - none.
I've read Chavs and find it true to life. The working class esp those who are white are marginalised and seen as figures of fun by the media and others alike. Having said that, my dad as "old" working class also finds some of the people hard to take.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
In contrast to their closest ecumenical partners, the Evangelical Lutheran church (which is 97% non-Hispanic White) the American Episcopal Church is a veritable multi-ethnic rainbow. Social class is harder to determine, but on my trips to the US (which are fairly frequent), Episcopal parishes seem to mirror their communities, with perhaps a slight bias toward the professional middle classes.
This lines up with my personal experience. In my hometown (US Northeast suburbs) the TEC parishes are significantly more ethnically and socially diverse than the Lutheran ones, which are whiter and richer than the demographics of the area by quite a long margin.
However I would also say that in the US, there's much less of a "culture clash" between rich and poor Americans, in the same way that there is in the UK. There will be obvious markers like quality of car, clothes, home, etc. - but I don't think the gap is as wide (or as important) in the US. In the US race is far more of an issue in churches. There's a joke that says that the Civil Rights movement ended segregation in America except for on Sunday mornings.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Jade Constable
How fascinating! A lot has been said about racial diversity in the church, but there's been far less discussion about class. I think the influence (let alone the presence) of the white urban working classes has basically been forgotten by the Protestant churches in England.
It occurs to me that the problem of the 'middle class white evangelist talking down to white working class people' might be rendered less of an issue if evangelistic teams benefitted from the faith and energy of the ethnic minority and multicultural congregations. There might even be more cultural similarities between working class white and black teens than between middle class and working class white ones. There has been antagonism between white and black working class folk, but also plenty of shared space and cultural influence. All this should be explored and potentially utilised in evangelism.
The most interesting church I know re diversity of all kinds is a Baptist church, and I think it's already been the focus of a few studies. Speaking for myself, I'm especially interested in the inner city, and would like to learn more about what 'white flight' from such areas has meant for the white (and often working class) churchgoers left behind. But perhaps you'd prefer to focus on smaller towns and housing estates where 'chav multiculturalism' is less of an issue?
Anyway, I think the working classes and contemporary English Christianity (or Protestantism) would be an excellent topic for a dissertation!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Even in 'inclusive' churches, it seems to be inclusive when it comes to gender/sexuality but class/race etc is not even on the radar.
Shouldn't that read especially in 'inclusive' churches?
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Episcopalians in both the US and Scotland seem to be almost universally rich and white, is this the case?
No.*
*Rather, there's enough truth in it to recognize the stereotype, but not enough to be true. The Episcopal Church in the USA is a lot more diverse than its reputation of yore would suggest. It has, for instance an entire Diocese for the Navajo and presences in many other tribal areas. In fact, if we look at the ethnic demographics of the Episcopal Church in the United States and compare them with those for the entire country, we see:
- Native American/American Indian people are represented in the Episcopal Church at about the same ratio as in the general population (0.8 vs 0.9)
- Pacific Islanders and Native Hawaiians are overrepresented in the Episcopal Church by a factor of 7 (0.2 vs 1.4).
- African Americans are notably underrepresented, at only 6.4% of the Episcopal Church, as opposed to 12.6% of the entire country. However, this has to consider also the fact that there are several denominations in the United States that are almost exclusively African American.
- Hispanics (of any ethnic background) are enormously underrepresented in the Episcopal Church as compared to the entire nation (3.5 vs 16.4). However, this is hardly surprising given that 68% of American Hispanics are Roman Catholic, with a plurality of the remainder being evangelical Protestants or pentacostal and only 5% belonging to 'mainline' churches.
In contrast to their closest ecumenical partners, the Evangelical Lutheran church (which is 97% non-Hispanic White) the American Episcopal Church is a veritable multi-ethnic rainbow. Social class is harder to determine, but on my trips to the US (which are fairly frequent), Episcopal parishes seem to mirror their communities, with perhaps a slight bias toward the professional middle classes.
As for the SEC, my impression is that it's very much a minority faith without a strong correlation to social class. As one Scottish friend put it, the stereotype is that the Roman Catholics are all working class as the Kirk is very middle class, with the Piskies floating awkwardly somewhere in the middle.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) at 'especially in inclusive churches'. Being involved in Certain Christian Organisations that end up being middle-class lesbian Methodist knitting circles, I agree and it worries me. Lots of hummus eaters, barely anyone from a region from which hummus may originate.
Thanks for the info re TEC and SEC.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Carl Beech is a Baptist Minister working for Christian Vision for Men.
Some Baptist churches are very mixed socially and racially: some aren't - its impossible to generalise. We've planted a lot on estates perhaps more so than other denominations. We encourage everyone to get involved perhaps that helps attraction and cohesion?
Many (at least 1/3rd) wouldn't make you (and others) happy as they would follow a "traditionalist" line on human sexuality. In the new Jerusalem there are 22 different nationalities and people from a wide range of job and social circumstances. We have a ministry to our local area which includes the prostitutes on street corners. We have a big ministry to those with mental health issues and work with the council on lots of things designed to address deprivation. Does that make us a varied church - yes but it could be better.
Non BUGB Baptist are much more likely to be homogenously middle class congregations.
FWIW I always put my occupation as labourer even though I'm Revd EM. I've worked as one anyway as well has having degrees from one of the two oldest Universities in the UK. What class am I - none.
I've read Chavs and find it true to life. The working class esp those who are white are marginalised and seen as figures of fun by the media and others alike. Having said that, my dad as "old" working class also finds some of the people hard to take.
That is interesting re non-BUGB Baptist churches - in my very limited experience it's the opposite.
I suppose the independence of individual Baptist churches makes this more difficult to generalise about. Can see that congregationalism (is that the right term for Baptist structure?) would have a positive impact. My main experience of Baptist churches is white conservative working-class, black conservative working-class in London/Birmingham. My main concern is that this creates a false dichotomy between conservative and WC and liberal and MC - plenty of those who are the opposite about but the voices of inclusive WC people get drowned out for some reason.
Agreed re 'old style' working class.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Jade Constable
How fascinating! A lot has been said about racial diversity in the church, but there's been far less discussion about class. I think the influence (let alone the presence) of the white urban working classes has basically been forgotten by the Protestant churches in England.
It occurs to me that the problem of the 'middle class white evangelist talking down to white working class people' might be rendered less of an issue if evangelistic teams benefitted from the faith and energy of the ethnic minority and multicultural congregations. There might even be more cultural similarities between working class white and black teens than between middle class and working class white ones. There has been antagonism between white and black working class folk, but also plenty of shared space and cultural influence. All this should be explored and potentially utilised in evangelism.
The most interesting church I know re diversity of all kinds is a Baptist church, and I think it's already been the focus of a few studies. Speaking for myself, I'm especially interested in the inner city, and would like to learn more about what 'white flight' from such areas has meant for the white (and often working class) churchgoers left behind. But perhaps you'd prefer to focus on smaller towns and housing estates where 'chav multiculturalism' is less of an issue?
Anyway, I think the working classes and contemporary English Christianity (or Protestantism) would be an excellent topic for a dissertation!
In my limited experience, white WC and black WC Christians do tend to interact with each other more than white WC and white MC Christians.
I have v little experience of non-Anglican UK Protestantism so mostly concerned with Anglican churches, but always good to have other denominations' experiences. I find that Anglican churches outside of big cities are almost wholly white MC, same for Methodist churches. How do you find race and class issues in Methodist churches?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
In the US race is far more of an issue in churches. There's a joke that says that the Civil Rights movement ended segregation in America except for on Sunday mornings.
In Inner London Sunday is the least segregated day of the week. The women are in church and the men in the pub watching football...
But in general its true we talk and worry a lot more about race than about class. The missing demographic in the churches round our way is white working-class adult men. Especially the middle-aged.
To be fair, the very poorest often do have some connection with church. It's the slightly better off that are least likely to. Those Americans might call middle class, but here are culturally working class. You don't meet a lot of plumbers, taxi drivers, builders, bus drivers, computer programmers (real ones, not fake business clones in suits), or low-ranking office workers in church. Or not male ones anyway. You do on the other hand meet lots of nurses, social workers, and teachers - who get paid no more but are more often considered culturally middle-class. And sometimes police as well, for some reason.
Our parish has become more middle-class in my time there as West Indians have declined in numbers and Africans increased.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Being involved in Certain Christian Organisations that end up being middle-class lesbian Methodist knitting circles, I agree and it worries me.
And what differentiates Methodist knitting from other kinds?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
... I'm none the wiser as to what 'working class culture' is supposed to be (as distinct from 'middle class culture') other than perhaps modes of dress and speech (which I don't think are necessarily worth protecting or preserving).
You can lose your culture and language if you like. I'm keeping mine!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Being involved in Certain Christian Organisations that end up being middle-class lesbian Methodist knitting circles, I agree and it worries me.
And what differentiates Methodist knitting from other kinds?
I could probably have used some commas in there! Knitters who are Methodist, not Methodist knitting.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
... I'm none the wiser as to what 'working class culture' is supposed to be (as distinct from 'middle class culture') other than perhaps modes of dress and speech (which I don't think are necessarily worth protecting or preserving).
You can lose your culture and language if you like. I'm keeping mine!
But what is it?!
(And are you really working class?)
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
From the article:
quote:
Two main criticisms come out of the idea that the Church is largely middle class. The first is that we have overlooked the working class in mission, or done mission in a way that limits and undermines working-class culture.
Having read the article, I'm none the wiser as to what 'working class culture' is supposed to be (as distinct from 'middle class culture') other than perhaps modes of dress and speech (which I don't think are necessarily worth protecting or preserving).
I'm uneasy with the underlying assumption that middle class people, by virtue of being middle class, are unable to relate to working class people or vice versa. That said, there's a brilliant Billy Connolly sketch in which he argues that aristocrats and the working classes actually have lots in common, with both looking down on middle class pretensions. If that's true, perhaps we need to look to the nobility to 'reach out' to the council estates...
It's not so much an inability to relate so much as a need for the church (generally) to reflect all people. Also, it's about MC people not assuming what being WC is like and vice versa, but people being able to talk about their own experiences. A MC-dominated church is going to be ignorant about the reality of WC life. That is not a good thing.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
... I'm none the wiser as to what 'working class culture' is supposed to be (as distinct from 'middle class culture') other than perhaps modes of dress and speech (which I don't think are necessarily worth protecting or preserving).
You can lose your culture and language if you like. I'm keeping mine!
But what is it?!
(And are you really working class?)
IME MC culture is more homogenous than WC culture, which varies a lot regionally. Also 'old style' WC culture is rather different from modern WC culture.
It's not that hard to look up, surely? Wiki article to start you off.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
The Wikipedia article doesn't tell me what 'working class culture' is, particularly as distinct from 'middle class culture'.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
This feels like yet another attempt to make me feel guilty for liking complex liturgy and renaissance polyphony, and for feeling more comfortable communicating from within the associated culture than from other positions. As with all other such attempts, it can fuck off.
As for whether the church is good at communicating with people who identify with working class culture, I'm fairly sure it isn't. But then, at the moment, I don't think many churches are very good at communicating with anyone, even itself.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
This feels like yet another attempt to make me feel guilty for liking complex liturgy and renaissance polyphony, and for feeling more comfortable communicating from within the associated culture than from other positions. As with all other such attempts, it can fuck off.
As for whether the church is good at communicating with people who identify with working class culture, I'm fairly sure it isn't. But then, at the moment, I don't think many churches are very good at communicating with anyone, even itself.
But lots of WC people like complex liturgy and renaissance polyphony. I think any implication that WC people are too stupid to enjoy those things is rather more offensive. Lots of WC RCs and A-Cs after all.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
As for the SEC, my impression is that it's very much a minority faith without a strong correlation to social class. As one Scottish friend put it, the stereotype is that the Roman Catholics are all working class as the Kirk is very middle class, with the Piskies floating awkwardly somewhere in the middle.
This isn't quite the stereotype I'm familiar with. Yes, historically the RC church in Scotland is largely working class. The Kirk covers a pretty wide spectrum, as you would expect, though I would say it is concentrated in the 'aspiring working class' through to the various lower-to-middle middle classes! (Oh, the subtle nuances of the British class system!)
The SEC definitely has a reputation for being 'posh'. Fair or not, the stereotype is a very strong correlation to the upper middle class and above. (Though that may be different in the north east, where they are historically stronger and more widespread.) There are also a few (i.e., about 4!) very large, very evangelical SEC churches in Glasgow and Edinburgh which will have a different demographic again, and from observation seem to appeal to the young professional classes. Definitely not somewhere in between Kirk and Chapel, though, but floating somewhere 'above' both!
I have no statistics to support any of this! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The Wikipedia article doesn't tell me what 'working class culture' is, particularly as distinct from 'middle class culture'.
Initiative is apparently not possible for the MC ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
This feels like yet another attempt to make me feel guilty for liking complex liturgy and renaissance polyphony, and for feeling more comfortable communicating from within the associated culture than from other positions. As with all other such attempts, it can fuck off.
As for whether the church is good at communicating with people who identify with working class culture, I'm fairly sure it isn't. But then, at the moment, I don't think many churches are very good at communicating with anyone, even itself.
But lots of WC people like complex liturgy and renaissance polyphony. I think any implication that WC people are too stupid to enjoy those things is rather more offensive. Lots of WC RCs and A-Cs after all.
I'm not making that implication, or at least not trying to. I just feel, rightly or wrongly, that it comes over in accusations that churches ignore working-class culture. I'm not sure that the whole idea of working-class culture is currently coherent enough to be meaningful, wiki articles notwithstanding.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
This feels like yet another attempt to make me feel guilty for liking complex liturgy and renaissance polyphony, and for feeling more comfortable communicating from within the associated culture than from other positions. As with all other such attempts, it can fuck off.
This is certainly a cultural thing. The two churches I've attended in London (both multicultural areas, evangelical parishes) have a good number of working class people. But almost all of them are Africans, Caribbeans, Asians, or white immigrants. Working class white British people are as rare as gold dust it seems.
I've had the privilege to attend Anglican church services in West Africa and in the Middle East, and they were among the highest, most liturgically complex services I've been to. And in the case of the ME church, there was extremely low understanding of the English language. Didn't stop them saying the Lord's Prayer in extremely heavily accented English though.
So there is some reason that white working class people are not engaging with the church and it's nothing to do with their educational levels or grasp of the English language.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
seekingsister
I was just thinking some of that. Coming from a white Wobblie background, religious white Wobblies were and are rare, except for Irish Catholics.
And as you say, I notice tons of working class people in the local Catholic church, but few of them white English.
As I said earlier, it seems likely that the white Wobblies got disenchanted a long time ago - 1800? Of course, this led to various missions, with varying success, see the numerous chapels in some Wobblie areas.
*Wobblies = Industrial Workers of the World, an old US union.
[ 24. January 2014, 16:18: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
This feels like yet another attempt to make me feel guilty for liking complex liturgy and renaissance polyphony, and for feeling more comfortable communicating from within the associated culture than from other positions. As with all other such attempts, it can fuck off.
As for whether the church is good at communicating with people who identify with working class culture, I'm fairly sure it isn't. But then, at the moment, I don't think many churches are very good at communicating with anyone, even itself.
But lots of WC people like complex liturgy and renaissance polyphony. I think any implication that WC people are too stupid to enjoy those things is rather more offensive. Lots of WC RCs and A-Cs after all.
I'm not making that implication, or at least not trying to. I just feel, rightly or wrongly, that it comes over in accusations that churches ignore working-class culture. I'm not sure that the whole idea of working-class culture is currently coherent enough to be meaningful, wiki articles notwithstanding.
Oh not accusing you of implying those things, just saying if those things were being implied, that's wrong.
I sort of agree with you re culture - or rather, any MC attempts to distil what WC culture is in order to make themselves feel more right-on. A church that makes an effort to be inclusive of those from all backgrounds is a good thing. I have been in churches where I have felt uncomfortable due to my class/background - nothing said outright but definitely there. Said church was very involved in outreach but there was a distinct Lady Bountiful attitude to it all.
I think churches that 'include' WC culture that's actually a MC idea of what WC is, and churches that either explicitly or implicitly exclude WC people are equally bad.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I disagree about MC culture being more homogenous. I grew up in a definitely MC house, chartered accountant and teacher, emerged from working class, railway guard and nursery maid, autodidact gardener* and dressmaker. We had books and valued aducation. (*son of escapee from upper middle ex-Huguenot family married to hotelier's (read publican) daughter.)
As I grew up, I found that other, apparently MC homes had very different cultures. Members of Rotary, professional people had no books. One of my landladies, educated at private school and with the voice to match, mixed with the hunting layer of society, not upper class, but overlapping a bit. And people I met through school, emerged from working class more recently than my parents, but with MC occupations, had brought their culture with them. Not to the lengths of polishing their front door furniture and whitening their doorsteps.(Though in the other direction, one of my colleagues went hunting and held Tupperware parties - define that.)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Even in 'inclusive' churches, it seems to be inclusive when it comes to gender/sexuality but class/race etc is not even on the radar.
Shouldn't that read especially in 'inclusive' churches?
Yes, that's why I steer away from churches that self-describe as 'inclusive'. ISTM shorthand for a particularly smug and blinkered white-middle-class Saturday-Guardian set of attitudes.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
How do you find race and class issues in Methodist churches?
The Methodist Church here produced some of the country's earliest work on the English church and race, and also went through a period of offering considerable financial support for initiatives to develop grass-roots and theological awareness of racial issues and racial justice. But times have changed, money is short and perhaps the need seems to be less. There are more black and Asian clergy now (although I think they face the same process of cultural assimilation that occurs with the white working class clergy). Congregations and clergy must develop their own racial awareness projects if they're interested. I suspect that the churches not already interested in this subject are unlikely to become so at this point.
Going back to your OP, I've noticed that in popular culture, CofE congregations do include a few working - or indeed, underclass - characters: see 'Rev' or even 'The Vicar of Dibley'. I've seen this in a few novels as well. They're obviously contrasted with the 'posh' characters.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I disagree about MC culture being more homogenous. I grew up in a definitely MC house, chartered accountant and teacher, emerged from working class, railway guard and nursery maid, autodidact gardener* and dressmaker. We had books and valued aducation. (*son of escapee from upper middle ex-Huguenot family married to hotelier's (read publican) daughter.)
As I grew up, I found that other, apparently MC homes had very different cultures. Members of Rotary, professional people had no books. One of my landladies, educated at private school and with the voice to match, mixed with the hunting layer of society, not upper class, but overlapping a bit. And people I met through school, emerged from working class more recently than my parents, but with MC occupations, had brought their culture with them. Not to the lengths of polishing their front door furniture and whitening their doorsteps.(Though in the other direction, one of my colleagues went hunting and held Tupperware parties - define that.)
I don't disagree that MC culture isn't homogenous, more that WC is less homogenous - or rather much less homogenous than people think.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Even in 'inclusive' churches, it seems to be inclusive when it comes to gender/sexuality but class/race etc is not even on the radar.
Shouldn't that read especially in 'inclusive' churches?
Yes, that's why I steer away from churches that self-describe as 'inclusive'. ISTM shorthand for a particularly smug and blinkered white-middle-class Saturday-Guardian set of attitudes.
Sadly, this is usually the case. There are examples where people try harder to have a genuinely inclusive space, but unfortunately this is rare.
The problem, I suppose, comes when you have to pick the best of a bad lot inclusivity-wise. Inclusive in some ways but smug WMC Guardianistas (contrary to what many on here would suggest, the Guardian is usually evidence of MC not left wing values, not that they are mutually exclusive) is better than not inclusive at all.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The local (evangelical) theological college here in this city sends some students out to work in outer ring council estates.
The two estates that I know about do liturgy-lite and 'seeker' services and the number attending has gone up.
But they don't seem to be as successful as the baptists and non-denominational churches.
Tbh a lot of MC unchurched people would appreciate liturgy-lite too. Many WC people from an RC background would obviously have no issue with understanding liturgy, even if they didn't like it.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
As I said earlier, it seems likely that the white Wobblies got disenchanted a long time ago - 1800? Of course, this led to various missions, with varying success, see the numerous chapels in some Wobblie areas.
*Wobblies = Industrial Workers of the World, an old US union.
The Wobblies, founded in 1905, are still around. Given some of their history, they haven't always been particularly amenable to religion.
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
There are two strands which I think we could pursue. One is the place of church and of denomination in specifically English culture: to my mind, class has been critical to this since the 17th century, when the Lollards and other dissenters were more or less on trail for their lives for being poor. Comparison with other places would also be interesting, but I would certainly be interested in keeping a strand of the debate focussed on specifically English experience. The other is a cross-fertilisation between this debate and the question of the church as a private club. Has identity, church (or whatever other expression of culture) as label, become so important that a congregation cannot include more than one cultural group, because a lack of identification prevents communication?
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
(And are you really working class?)
As you said you didn't know what working class culture was, how can I answer that unless you say what you mean by the word?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
The other is a cross-fertilisation between this debate and the question of the church as a private club. Has identity, church (or whatever other expression of culture) as label, become so important that a congregation cannot include more than one cultural group, because a lack of identification prevents communication?
Interesting point. Class was certainly a significant element in the conflict that I was swept up in. I know of another priest who suffered a breakdown, after a very successful ministry in a working class parish, when he went to a much more 'socially ambitious' one.
I don't think the real problem is middle class vs working class; most middle class churchpeople I know are quite confident in their identity and happy to work alongside people from different backgrounds. Similarly working class ones. The problem parishes are those dominated by insecure 'Hyacinth Bucket' types who are threatened both by what they perceive as the intellectual and social superiority of the former, and the reminder of what they have escaped from (but fear sinking back into) of the others.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I don't think the real problem is middle class vs working class; most middle class churchpeople I know are quite confident in their identity and happy to work alongside people from different backgrounds. Similarly working class ones. The problem parishes are those dominated by insecure 'Hyacinth Bucket' types who are threatened both by what they perceive as the intellectual and social superiority of the former, and the reminder of what they have escaped from (but fear sinking back into) of the others.
In other words, the problem is with the lower middle class/upper working class types?
Hmmm. I've sometimes thought in my idle moments that Mrs Hyacinth Bucket would do well in the Methodist Church, and it seems I was right; she'd feel less sandwiched between the two other groups because she'd be in the majority.
This isn't to disparate Methodists, but I suspect you'd find fewer Methodists at the social extremes in the way you've described.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
From an Anglican perspective, the ordination system in particular seems to be spectacularly biased in favour of the middle-class - issues there.
Are people from a working-class background who have a good education and a degree really so terribly different from people from a middle-class background who have a good education and a degree?
I can't say that I've noticed anything beyond the most superficial differences.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
One thing religion in Canada is not is class-based; rather it's tribal. Unlike our parents in GB we run the gamut from rural churches which are essentially shacks in Upper Left Boot, Saskatchewan to the palaces of Old Money in Toronto and Montreal like Timothy Eaton Memorial United Church.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
There are two strands which I think we could pursue. One is the place of church and of denomination in specifically English culture: to my mind, class has been critical to this since the 17th century, when the Lollards and other dissenters were more or less on trail for their lives for being poor.
My recollection is that the Lollards were 14th century to the mid 16th century. Those strands still remaining blended into the Puritan movement.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Are people from a working-class background who have a good education and a degree really so terribly different from people from a middle-class background who have a good education and a degree?
I can't say that I've noticed anything beyond the most superficial differences.
In the USA, maybe. I'm led to believe that 'class' in the US is more a matter of economic status rather than the subtle social identifiers that trip people up in Britain.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The Wikipedia article doesn't tell me what 'working class culture' is, particularly as distinct from 'middle class culture'.
Well, as a corollary, how would you define 'middle class culture' as distinct from 'working class culture'?
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The Wikipedia article doesn't tell me what 'working class culture' is, particularly as distinct from 'middle class culture'.
Well, as a corollary, how would you define 'middle class culture' as distinct from 'working class culture'?
Bathroom suites: avocado or peach = working class; white or buttercup yellow = middle class.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Bathroom suites: avocado or peach = working class; white or buttercup yellow = middle class.
Help, I'm working class.
Bathroom suites: avocado or peach = bought in the 1970s or 80s; white or buttercup yellow = more recent. Unless working Class = not updating your bathroom suite if it works.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Anecdotology - one of my grandads had a deep and abiding hatred for anything to do with religion; I suppose he saw them as posh toffs, who looked down on the plebs, ... So the clergyman was linked to the squire and the officer class, probably rather unjustly.
There is a saying that in the landed classes the oldest son inherited the estate, the second son went into the military and the third son into the church. This was used to make the church sound out of touch with ordinary people. In truth not all landed families had a third son, and even if they had the proportion of toffs in the clergy would still be small. The problem with urban myths like this is that some people believe them.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Anecdotology - one of my grandads had a deep and abiding hatred for anything to do with religion; I suppose he saw them as posh toffs, who looked down on the plebs, ... So the clergyman was linked to the squire and the officer class, probably rather unjustly.
There is a saying that in the landed classes the oldest son inherited the estate, the second son went into the military and the third son into the church. This was used to make the church sound out of touch with ordinary people. In truth not all landed families had a third son, and even if they had the proportion of toffs in the clergy would still be small. The problem with urban myths like this is that some people believe them.
I have met toffs in the C of E. In fact, my most favouritest clergyman ever had been an officer and a gentleman, had private money, blah blah blah, but was a totally brilliant preacher and all round good egg.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Bathroom suites: avocado or peach = working class; white or buttercup yellow = middle class.
Help, I'm working class.
Bathroom suites: avocado or peach = bought in the 1970s or 80s; white or buttercup yellow = more recent. Unless working Class = not updating your bathroom suite if it works.
I've bought a house with a peach bathroom. Which works. Conflicting message!
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