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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Akedia
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Majorminor
Apprentice
# 17967
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Posted
Does anyone have any knowledge or experience of akedia (I think it's sloth-ish)? Could you point me to any good resources about it?
Thanks, in anticipation.
Posts: 31 | From: East Staffs | Registered: Jan 2014
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
I can't be bothered.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Yes. I've seen it more usually spelt as accidie, or acedia, and have been reading about this recently. It's spiritual sloth, and the early monastics were quite familiar with it. It later became amalgamated into the concept of sloth generally, which in view of what it is seems a bit of a mistake.
Accidie is an insidious thing that starts little by little, a skipped prayer session here, a lack of attention there, until one day the sufferer wakes up and realizes that the prayer life has either gone completely or been replaced by charitable intentions, or that maybe even that has gone and it's all too much effort just at this precise moment. S/he makes a mental resolve, not particularly firmly, to resume prayer later that night, or perhaps tomorrow when feeling less tired and fed up and more in the mood... but for now wouldn't a computer game feel better and be more fun...
With accidie, tomorrow doesn't come. (And the computer game can be more just something to do, than real, satisfying fun.)
The symptoms resemble depression in that accidie is marked by listlessness, world-weariness and general dissatisfaction with life and the slow, gradual erosion of the spiritual life. The monastics had a list of symptoms, including one that the monk afflicted would find fault with pretty much everything and everyone in his community, and spend his time longing to be part of some other, distant community - if only that could happen, everything would be so much better. The afflicted monk would also be capable of starting arguments even with himself if there was nobody around or getting really annoyed with inanimate objects. It's tied up with spiritual pride because anyone with accidie, in finding fault with others, sets him/herself up as a standard to judge others by.
The monastics knew the distinction between accidie and depression and for cases of accidie, the remedy was a distinct lack of sympathy and the monk was immediately put to hard work.
I'll see if I can find the description I was looking at a few weeks ago - it lists the symptoms pretty clearly.
[ 01. February 2014, 09:37: Message edited by: Ariel ]
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Majorminor
Apprentice
# 17967
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Posted
Very helpful, Ariel, thank you. The description is sounding alarmingly familiar, but I'm not looking forward to the fix of no sympathy and lots of hard work.
I'm wondering, too, if this issue is prevalent among Christians, either lay or clergy, who have been in ministry for a long time?
Posts: 31 | From: East Staffs | Registered: Jan 2014
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I can't be bothered.
...
...
Took me a minute, but,
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Majorminor
Apprentice
# 17967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I can't be bothered.
...
...
Took me a minute, but,
Posts: 31 | From: East Staffs | Registered: Jan 2014
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Majorminor
Apprentice
# 17967
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Posted
Sorry- newbie error with buttons.
Yes, I thought 'how rude!' Then the penny dropped. Am very slow...
Posts: 31 | From: East Staffs | Registered: Jan 2014
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I think it's much more prevalent generally than is recognized, amongst clergy, laity and non-Christians alike. It probably gets treated as depression.
Cassian had quite a lot to say on it. You might find this more modern take on "the demon of the noonday" interesting. Cassian's original (ok, translated) is all here, though in somewhat archaic English and there is a lot of it.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
It simply sounds human to me.
It's hard to keep up any discipline long term once it has lost the excitement of newness.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
It's marked by more of an intensity of apathy generally, not just with prayer life, if that makes sense.
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Majorminor
Apprentice
# 17967
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Posted
Yes. I like the description that it makes the spiritual life seem like a chore, rather than a gift of God's grace. Therefore, all spiritual exercises and acts of service become either a chore, or boring.
I think it's more widespread than I'd imagined.
Posts: 31 | From: East Staffs | Registered: Jan 2014
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Acedia, or despondency, is one of the Eight Thoughts. The others are gluttony, lust, greed, anger, sadness, pride, and vainglory.
In addition to Ariel's decent summary, there is the notion that the demon of acedia induces the monk to leave his cell, engaging in travel to distract himself from the pursuit of stillness. St. Benedict's gyrovagues may be suffering from acedia.
Oddly enough, the practice of hospitality can be a symptom of acedia.
One of the addicts I work with aptly described acedia as "The Fuck Its."
Robert Sinkewicz's Evagrius of Pontus: The Greek Ascetic Corpus provides much on the Thoughts, including acedia. The writing is surprisingly accessible.
Gabriel Bunge in his Despondency: The Spiritual Teaching of Evagrius Ponticus on Acedia pulls Evagrian teaching on Despondency together into one nice little book.
John Climacus's Ladder of Divine Ascent has an excellent chapter on Despondency and its inter-relatedness to the other Thoughts.
Christopher C. H. Cook in his The Philokalia and the Inner Life: On Passions and Prayer goes into great detail how the Thoughts assault us, looking into their relation to psychotherapy and prayer.
Finally, Kathleen Norris has written a popular memoir, Acedia and Me: A Marriage, Monks, and A Writer's Life.
[ 01. February 2014, 12:38: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
In mental health terms, sounds very similar to dysthymia.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Majorminor
Apprentice
# 17967
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Posted
Speaking as a Ship's Apprentice, who knew that the Ship could supply such interesting and stimulating posts? Many thanks ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 31 | From: East Staffs | Registered: Jan 2014
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
The symptoms resemble depression in that accidie is marked by listlessness, world-weariness and general dissatisfaction with life and the slow, gradual erosion of the spiritual life. The monastics had a list of symptoms, including one that the monk afflicted would find fault with pretty much everything and everyone in his community, and spend his time longing to be part of some other, distant community - if only that could happen, everything would be so much better. The afflicted monk would also be capable of starting arguments even with himself if there was nobody around or getting really annoyed with inanimate objects. It's tied up with spiritual pride because anyone with accidie, in finding fault with others, sets him/herself up as a standard to judge others by.
The monastics knew the distinction between accidie and depression and for cases of accidie, the remedy was a distinct lack of sympathy and the monk was immediately put to hard work.
Ariel, can you elaborate on the difference between accidie and depression? They sound very similar and as someone who suffers with depression, I always thought "accidie" was just the Church taking the opportunity to bitch about people like me.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
They are quite similar. However, what you don't find so much in acedia is the loss of self-esteem characteristic of depression. With depression, your own imperfections are magnified and everybody else seems to have got the knack/is smarter/better at whatever it is; no matter how hard you try you will never succeed because you're basically rubbish. With acedia, everybody else's imperfections are magnified and they can become immensely irritating. Your own standards become a sort of benchmark: if others don't live up to your expectations, they've failed. This is what I mean by the "spiritual pride" element of acedia and why it's different to depression. An acedic can be quite intolerant, arrogant even: there is an element of spiritual pride to this that's lacking in depression.
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
There is the notion that the demon of acedia induces the monk to leave his cell, engaging in travel to distract himself from the pursuit of stillness. St. Benedict's gyrovagues may be suffering from acedia.
I've sometimes thought that the modern-day obsession with social media and checking phones/the internet constantly is one form of this. Retreats are quite right when they usually insist on no phones or internet.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Don't you have to add some complainativeness to depression to get accedia?
I would say the equation is:
ennui + procrastination + whining.
It's the feeling that you must do something, but motivation is a problem, and no sooner than you try to start you find yourself whining about the burden.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Majorminor:
Speaking as a Ship's Apprentice, who knew that the Ship could supply such interesting and stimulating posts? Many thanks
{Gently levitates.}
Strangely naive and inattentive this apprentice is. Witty, erudite, and scintillating we always are.
Get you to the hold of Ship and with a toothbrush scrub walls, floor, ceiling. Use the Force of your elbow grease. Levitate, you may learn to.
{Turns slow somersault in mid-air. Stops upside down.}
And welcome to the Ship you are.
{Floats away upside down, in search of very dark chocolate.}
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
Acadia/Depression is very often the price one pays for understanding things.
There seems to be a tendency amongst some to try to clearly differentiate Acedia from Depression. After all, Acedia is considered to be a "sin", and depression has, in modern discourse, been clearly declared to be an "illness", hence 'not-evil'.
In that vein, the man afflicted by acedia is said to have a superiority complex, thinking himself superior to his fellow men, and that of course is a big no-no in postmodern discourse.
Whereas the poor chap who is afflicted by depression suffers from an inferiority complex, which immediately makes him an object of concern, care, and various attempts by well-meaning others to "uplift" him, since, in the same postmodern discourse of careful PC-ness, we are all equally wonderful, and all equally "okay".
All very nice and very fuzzy-cosy.
But it ain't that simple.
Acedia is more complex than that, the "noonday demon" also (and heavily) strikes hermits (who are not surrounded by mediocre brethren to whom they could feel superior).
Just as "depression" changes its meaning throughout the ages, and we should not take the latest pronouncements of (heavily culture-dependent) bodies such as the American Psychological Association on the matter as The Gospel (TM), Acedia too has meant different things to different writers throughout the ages.
So seeking to sharply distinguish between the two is a merely pseudo-academic (and rather futile) exercise; the Zeitgeist of course might have it otherwise, but in the end both are afflictions of the soul and as such, sin or not, must be addresed with a judicious mixture of prayer, discipline (as in "pulling oneself together") and expert help.
Where Acedia can indeed be considered to be a "sin" is not so much the "superiority-complex" bit, but in one's refusal to let God operate through one, to be God's operator, so to speak, to be active for and through God. The story of Elijah, inofficial Patron-Saint of all clinically and otherwise depressed, is a good example
[ 02. February 2014, 08:03: Message edited by: Desert Daughter ]
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Majorminor
Apprentice
# 17967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Majorminor:
Speaking as a Ship's Apprentice, who knew that the Ship could supply such interesting and stimulating posts? Many thanks
{Gently levitates.}
Strangely naive and inattentive this apprentice is. Witty, erudite, and scintillating we always are.
Get you to the hold of Ship and with a toothbrush scrub walls, floor, ceiling. Use the Force of your elbow grease. Levitate, you may learn to.
{Turns slow somersault in mid-air. Stops upside down.}
And welcome to the Ship you are.
{Floats away upside down, in search of very dark chocolate.}
Posts: 31 | From: East Staffs | Registered: Jan 2014
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Majorminor
Apprentice
# 17967
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Posted
Am craving your mercy, Golden Key. I would love to scrub the ship with my tooth brush, but me akedia's flared up again. The flesh us willing, but the spirit's weak.
[ 03. February 2014, 08:15: Message edited by: Majorminor ]
Posts: 31 | From: East Staffs | Registered: Jan 2014
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
With timely serendipity, I notice that we have a new shipmate called Acedia. I wonder if (s)he will be bothered (HT to Ingo) to comment in this thread. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
▲
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
DD - I think it might be unwise to put the phrase "pulling yourself together" anywhere near "depression", or you might get torn limb from limb.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Just agreeing with Desert Daughter, that I'm not sure that you can make sharp distinctions between accidie and depression. For one thing, depression is a plant with many different blooms, and is not monolithic.
I suppose that a kind of spiritual barrenness might develop, which was not depression.
But professionals working in the field can be empirical and not a priori. Each person has their own assembly of different moods, motivations, ideas, and so on, and they don't have to be placed in one category or another.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
DD - I think it might be unwise to put the phrase "pulling yourself together" anywhere near "depression", or you might get torn limb from limb.
-- yes, well, I'm not really into this touchy-feely stuff. It's very post-modern anglo-saxon. And I'm afraid I'm neither... so I'll just bear the brunt of the usual suspects (*shrugs*)
-- more seriously, please note that in my post I said
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
a judicious mixture of prayer, discipline (as in "pulling oneself together") and expert help.
So one must discern as to what helps in a particular case. I'm not saying that sometimes pills and/or therapy don't do the trick.
And I do agree with this:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
For one thing, depression is a plant with many different blooms, and is not monolithic.
-I'd say a plant with many
thorns and the occasional (quite beautiful) bloom. Many creative geniuses were afflicted by acedia/depression. There is even literature on seeing these afflictions as a gift from God, the gift of insight and sensitivity, often paid for by a suffering of the soul which often cannot bear those insights.
[ 05. February 2014, 09:59: Message edited by: Desert Daughter ]
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Point is, DD, many people with depression have had ignorant acquaintances tell them to just "pull themselves together". It's unhelpful and betrays a complete lack of insight. It implies it's the depressive's own fault for being depressed and refuses to accept it's a real illness.
If doing that is "touchy feely" then so be it, but the alternative is what turns depression into suicide.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Desert Daughter
Yes, my 'blooms' was a bit ironic.
But certainly while depression is in general an absolute twat-winder, there are creative depressions, spiritual depressions, and so on, where a new impetus, or a new direction in life, is preceded by depression. In fact, I think it's quite common - for one thing, many creative people go through guilt before and after a creative piece of work. A touch of Prometheus, maybe, stealing the fire from the gods, and so on, for which crime, naturally enough, your liver will be ripped out. Or something.
I used to work with novelists and artists, and got used to their deep depressions before and after a major piece of work. Pre-natal and post-natal.
[ 05. February 2014, 10:20: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Golden Key,
Good effort child*, but if you were truly a master, you would not need to find the chocolate. It would already be melting on your tongue.
*Well, spiritual child.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
DD - I think it might be unwise to put the phrase "pulling yourself together" anywhere near "depression", or you might get torn limb from limb.
-- yes, well, I'm not really into this touchy-feely stuff. It's very post-modern anglo-saxon. And I'm afraid I'm neither... so I'll just bear the brunt of the usual suspects (*shrugs*)
-- more seriously, please note that in my post I said
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
a judicious mixture of prayer, discipline (as in "pulling oneself together") and expert help.
So one must discern as to what helps in a particular case. I'm not saying that sometimes pills and/or therapy don't do the trick.
And I do agree with this:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
For one thing, depression is a plant with many different blooms, and is not monolithic.
-I'd say a plant with many
thorns and the occasional (quite beautiful) bloom. Many creative geniuses were afflicted by acedia/depression. There is even literature on seeing these afflictions as a gift from God, the gift of insight and sensitivity, often paid for by a suffering of the soul which often cannot bear those insights.
Oh for fuck's sake, it's not 'touchy-feely' to call depression an illness BECAUSE IT IS AN ILLNESS. If you'd ever had depression you'd damn well know it's not any kind of gift, so stop with the offensive and ableist horseshit. For a Christian to marginalise the ill and disabled like that is disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself.
DEPRESSION IS AN ILLNESS. PEOPLE DIE OF DEPRESSION. How's that for touchy-feely?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, I will defend Desert Daughter in one sense - that depression can haunt creative people, who can have a mild form of bipolar, in that they rise and sink, according to their creative rhythms.
It just adds to my idea that depression is not a monolithic entity, but comprises many different forms. It can presage something positive happening in life; but of course, often it doesn't.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
DD - I think it might be unwise to put the phrase "pulling yourself together" anywhere near "depression", or you might get torn limb from limb.
A duty for which I volunteer.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
DD - I think it might be unwise to put the phrase "pulling yourself together" anywhere near "depression", or you might get torn limb from limb.
A duty for which I volunteer.
Kindly do all such volunteering in Hell or not at all.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
DD - I think it might be unwise to put the phrase "pulling yourself together" anywhere near "depression", or you might get torn limb from limb.
A duty for which I volunteer.
Kindly do all such volunteering in Hell or not at all.
/hosting
Apologies for the poor choice of location.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
yes, well, I'm not really into this touchy-feely stuff. It's very post-modern anglo-saxon.
Oh, please. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:
I'd say a plant with many
thorns and the occasional (quite beautiful) bloom. Many creative geniuses were afflicted by acedia/depression. There is even literature on seeing these afflictions as a gift from God, the gift of insight and sensitivity, often paid for by a suffering of the soul which often cannot bear those insights.
File under "God is an ogre". ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Depression is often a terminal illness. I've lost people. The Ship has lost people. I nearly died from it, long ago.
{Dices DD's *ideas* with rusty farm implements; stamps on them; and then tosses them down the shaft of an outhouse.}
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
But again, that's monolithic thinking. Depression comprises many things, including self-destructive and suicidal thinking; but it also plagues some creative people, who feel ghastly before and after major creative work.
I don't think Desert Daughter was saying that all depression is creative; but some of it is.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
I do remember when I was in undergrad I always fell into a deep funk for a few days before commencing on a major paper.
That's a very, very different animal than clinical depression, but it seemed like an odd trend to me.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Just as "depression" changes its meaning throughout the ages, and we should not take the latest pronouncements of (heavily culture-dependent) bodies such as the American Psychological Association on the matter as The Gospel (TM), Acedia too has meant different things to different writers throughout the ages.
Good think religion is just the plain and simple truth.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
So seeking to sharply distinguish between the two is a merely pseudo-academic (and rather futile) exercise; the Zeitgeist of course might have it otherwise, but in the end both are afflictions of the soul and as such, sin or not, must be addresed with a judicious mixture of prayer, discipline (as in "pulling oneself together") and expert help.
So failure to shed depression is spiritual failure? Whilst one certainly needs to participate in battling one's own depression, it is manifestly unhelpful to attribute difficulty in doing so with lack of discipline.
BTW, in what way is "afflictions of the soul" anything other than a different way to say sin?
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
-I'd say a plant with many
thorns and the occasional (quite beautiful) bloom. Many creative geniuses were afflicted by acedia/depression. There is even literature on seeing these afflictions as a gift from God, the gift of insight and sensitivity, often paid for by a suffering of the soul which often cannot bear those insights.
Rubbish. Many creative geniuses were not so afflicted.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
People who haven't lived in monastic communities might not quite grasp the absolute centrality of the practice of obedience. This obedience must be given in full to the Rule and the Superior. Acidie represents a kind of disobedience in the sense that although there may be outward compliance there is an inward compulsion to judge these things unfavourably.
The consequence of this is that a sense of futility begins to pervade you as you carry out the requirements of Rule and Superior because you 'know' that there is a better way and that if you were in charge things would be different. Additionally this means that you put more effort than you should into doing the things that distract you from the actions you think are futile and look for excuses to get out of the routine, such as offering hospitality or going on journeys.
The cure is humility, accepting that the Rule is an embodiment of a greater wisdom than you possess and that the Superior had experience and insight which you yet lack.
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My Blog Catholic Scot
http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/
@stevhep on Twitter
Posts: 241 | From: Exeter | Registered: Jul 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
I do remember when I was in undergrad I always fell into a deep funk for a few days before commencing on a major paper.
That's a very, very different animal than clinical depression, but it seemed like an odd trend to me.
ISTM, that would be stress, depression's 1st cousin.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
The cure is humility, accepting that the Rule is an embodiment of a greater wisdom than you possess and that the Superior had experience and insight which you yet lack.
Sounds like North Korea.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
The cure is humility, accepting that the Rule is an embodiment of a greater wisdom than you possess and that the Superior had experience and insight which you yet lack.
Sounds like North Korea.
Well, the Kingdom of Sauron was a miserable counterfeit of the Kingdoms of the Elves. And Saruman in Isengard merely imitated Mordor. What you need to look at is not simply an act in its outward manifestations but also in its inward fountain springs . A voluntary obedience offered to a Superior who does not particularly desire to exercise authority is qualitatively different from compulsory obedience to a power hungry despotism.
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My Blog Catholic Scot
http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/
@stevhep on Twitter
Posts: 241 | From: Exeter | Registered: Jul 2012
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
One. last. time.
What I said was
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
one must discern as to what helps in a particular case. I'm not saying that sometimes pills and/or therapy don't do the trick.
okay?
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
File under "God is an ogre".
oh, come on. Then God would really need to be filed as an ogre any time someone falls ill, is treated unjustly, falls vicctim to an earthquake etc etc...
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So failure to shed depression is spiritual failure?
I did not say that, did I? I don't think any of my previous posts linkes depression to spiritual failure. Don't put things into my mouth I never said, please.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
BTW, in what way is "afflictions of the soul" anything other than a different way to say sin?
I don't want to go into different "definitions" of "sin", but I do not think an affliction is necessarily a sin.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Rubbish. Many creative geniuses were not so afflicted
But many are.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't think Desert Daughter was saying that all depression is creative; but some of it is.
exactly.
quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
A voluntary obedience offered to a Superior who does not particularly desire to exercise authority is qualitatively different from compulsory obedience to a power hungry despotism.
Well said and very true. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Rubbish. Many creative geniuses were not so afflicted
But many are.
Considering how many modern authors I know of who are not depressive in any way, I have trouble believing clinical depression has any link to creativity except in our minds. Certainly there is a kind of downness that can come after finishing a great work and a different kind that can precede it, but that's different. I would be very interested in seeing even a little statistical evidence that clinical depression has any link with creativity.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Rubbish. Many creative geniuses were not so afflicted
But many are.
Considering how many modern authors I know of who are not depressive in any way, I have trouble believing clinical depression has any link to creativity except in our minds. Certainly there is a kind of downness that can come after finishing a great work and a different kind that can precede it, but that's different. I would be very interested in seeing even a little statistical evidence that clinical depression has any link with creativity.
I noticed that you slipped in the word 'clinical' there - has anybody else used that term?
Well, I got used to working with creative people over several decades, and some of them used to have what I came to call pre-natal and post-natal depression, around a major piece of work.
There are certainly different facets to this - for example, some people experience considerable guilt over being creative (the Promethean syndrome); some people feel it is worthless; and there is a kind of 'birth-pang' associated with creativity for some.
It can vary from mild to intense - in fact, I've known novelists swear that their latest work is worthless, and they are tempted to destroy it.
I also think that some creative people have mild to severe bipolar disorder - their creative period corresponds to mania, and then they slump.
I believe there are some studies on this, but don't have links right now. It is certainly not universal, but I've found it not uncommon.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
A voluntary obedience offered to a Superior who does not particularly desire to exercise authority is qualitatively different from compulsory obedience to a power hungry despotism.
OK, so that Superior is God. But his will is mediated through people - and they look pretty darn controlling and often arbitrary to me. No wonder people become low in spirit.
I would think God's Spirit would treat us with love, kindness and gentleness - not lay us low.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Rubbish. Many creative geniuses were not so afflicted
But many are.
Considering how many modern authors I know of who are not depressive in any way, I have trouble believing clinical depression has any link to creativity except in our minds. Certainly there is a kind of downness that can come after finishing a great work and a different kind that can precede it, but that's different. I would be very interested in seeing even a little statistical evidence that clinical depression has any link with creativity.
I noticed that you slipped in the word 'clinical' there - has anybody else used that term?
Most relevantly Desert Daughter has at least once, but Bullfrog also has.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, I got used to working with creative people over several decades, and some of them used to have what I came to call pre-natal and post-natal depression, around a major piece of work.
<cut relevant stuff to avoid giant quote>
I also think that some creative people have mild to severe bipolar disorder - their creative period corresponds to mania, and then they slump.
I believe there are some studies on this, but don't have links right now. It is certainly not universal, but I've found it not uncommon.
I guess I was using the word clinical because I was trying to ascertain how disabling this depression is. And it may be that creative people are more likely than average to have even disabling depression around their creation. For one thing it wouldn't have to be way higher than the rest of the population to be worth noting. It's just that I think creative people are also somewhat more likely to have circumstances--say unreliable income because they only make money when they sell pieces/books/stories/get an acting gig--that would encourage depression. If I'm right, this would be relevant, but not directly related to their creativity.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Majorminor:
I like the description that it makes the spiritual life seem like a chore, rather than a gift of God's grace. Therefore, all spiritual exercises and acts of service become either a chore, or boring.
I think I was born with it.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, I got used to working with creative people over several decades, and some of them used to have what I came to call pre-natal and post-natal depression, around a major piece of work.
There are certainly different facets to this - for example, some people experience considerable guilt over being creative (the Promethean syndrome); some people feel it is worthless; and there is a kind of 'birth-pang' associated with creativity for some.
And I know people who are as creative an unadorned section of pavement who react the same. ISTM, it is about acceptance, doubt and stress.
IMO the "tortured genious" is an overused trope. In part because we allow behaviours in an artist that we do not in an engineer. "Oh, my design is worthless! I am a failure! That road curve is at least 20% less efficient than it could be! And a child could have done those drainage calcs."
Tantrum - Artist = sigh "Creatives."
Tantrum - Engineer = "You're fired."
[ 06. February 2014, 16:15: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
The consequence of this is that a sense of futility begins to pervade you as you carry out the requirements of Rule and Superior because you 'know' that there is a better way and that if you were in charge things would be different.
...
The cure is humility, accepting that the Rule is an embodiment of a greater wisdom than you possess and that the Superior had experience and insight which you yet lack.
Unless, of course, you are wiser and posessed of more insight that the Superior, and your ideas would be better.
Your post is no more than "this is the way we've always done it" dressed up in pious language about humility.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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