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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Church Growth (latest instalment)
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
Here's another bit of church growth research (for those of you who like this stuff). It's focused on the CofE so covers parishes, fresh expressions and cathedrals. As we've discussed before on these boards it points up figures on trends around growth, stability, and decline. New stuff in here for me included figures about what kind of people are going where. So about 1/2 of people rocking up to fresh expressions are from a non-church background, and about a quarter of people pitching up to the cathedrals in the survey are unchurched or de-churched. Good to see some figures on cathedral church growth, and what people are finding attractive about them.
Some interesting stuff about the characteristics of leaders of growing churches, their motivations, and how lay people are involved. A lot of lay people involved in running stuff, and new people get involved year on year is something you will see in growing churches.
Plenty of other goodies in here - what can you relate to?
Anyway, you fine people can find it here .
Enjoy
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Interesting. I'll read this in detail. The first thing that struck me was the comment about 'intentionality' - being 'intentional' in what we do.
That might sound like a truism, but it's a point worth reckoning on, I think.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
A very interesting document.
It's stated that theological tradition plays no particular part in the growth or decline of a congregation. This should be a very encouraging message for a broad church like the CofE.
Some parts of the document are relevant to churches in other denominations.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Yes, interesting, but how robust are the figures?
I only ask because our local 'fresh expression' place was forever being quoted as having regular numbers of under 30s in the 80s, a youth group of 80-100 every week and 40-60 under 16s at every family worship session.
However, knowing someone who was struggling with their own parish and tried the fresh expression outfit for nearly a year, the numbers were pure invention - to the extent that the youth group now meets once a month only and may fold if it can't attract more.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Yes, interesting, but how robust are the figures?
I only ask because our local 'fresh expression' place was forever being quoted as having regular numbers of under 30s in the 80s, a youth group of 80-100 every week and 40-60 under 16s at every family worship session.
However, knowing someone who was struggling with their own parish and tried the fresh expression outfit for nearly a year, the numbers were pure invention - to the extent that the youth group now meets once a month only and may fold if it can't attract more.
Presumably its 'fresh expression' nature flows from a recognition that 30 years on it is no longer what it was in the 80s, and something needs to be done. Patterns and the demography of churchgoing have changed hugely in the last three decades.
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Yes, interesting, but how robust are the figures?
I only ask because our local 'fresh expression' place was forever being quoted as having regular numbers of under 30s in the 80s, a youth group of 80-100 every week and 40-60 under 16s at every family worship session.
However, knowing someone who was struggling with their own parish and tried the fresh expression outfit for nearly a year, the numbers were pure invention - to the extent that the youth group now meets once a month only and may fold if it can't attract more.
It's not the model, it's the skill with which the model is appropriated in a particular context.
That's one guess.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
[coughs] having worked many years ago in a church hierarchy where numbers were Everything (God help us), there was considerable pressure on missionaries and pastors to (shall we call it) over-report the fruit of their endeavors. To the point that definitions were deliberately not standardized--what exactly constitutes a congregation? We're not going to tell you, because then we'd have to admit that one field is counting single families as congregations simply because they're geographically dispersed, while another is counting only fully-signed up, constitutionally-organized worshipping groups. In the case of youth groups, what constitutes a youth? Are we counting only 14-18 year-olds, or are we adding in the preteens--the college set--both? And how regularly are we updating these numbers? (Lots of pressure on media types to use the most favorable numbers and forgo double-checking present statistics, just in case things have changed for the worst)
This is all sin, of course, and shameful. But it happens. It happened to me. So I'd take all numbers reported in the media with a shakerful of salt, unless they're derived from a recent scientific study done by a disinterested third party.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
Then there is the youth project that has 'contact with over 100 young people' - that is the list of those who have ever come, and may not relate to the number per week or the few regulars.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
Whilst I tend to agree with LambChopped's saline treatment of 'evangelastic' figures (real membership vs boasting membership) the survey in question seems to be based on some pretty reliable data.
The CofE has an annual census of attenders which tends not to be subject to exaggeration (for one thing, inflationary estimates may affect the parish share, a sum of money paid by each parish to the diocese central funds).
So I might be naive, but tend to think this study has some teeth, and certainly gives food for thought.
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I think that's the case Felafool when it comes to 'conventional' parishes and so on in the CofE. I'd be less inclined to believe all the statistics on Fresh Expressions ...
I know it might be a cynical view but one clergyman I know tells me that almost anything can 'count' as a Fresh Expression.
'If I go to the dentist and talk to the girl on the reception desk, that counts as a Fresh Expression,' he quipped.
I wouldn't be completely dismissive of the kind of figures quoted - but would suggest that figures aren't the full story in and of themselves. The growth in cathedral attendance, for instance, does indicate that people are attending from previously unchurched backgrounds (as opposed to refugees trying to escape the Sunday school rota or drum'n'bass out in the parishes) but it also contains a lot of tourists and one-off visitors ... which is as one would expect.
On initiatives like Messy Church, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some 'double-counting' going on as these require a lot of helpers and facilitators - and most of these would be in the 'normal' service if Messy Church wasn't running.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
Gamaliel quotes a clergyman : quote:
'If I go to the dentist and talk to the girl on the reception desk, that counts as a Fresh Expression,' he quipped.
What can I say? I know what he means, but I imagine he also knows that the remark is fatuous, and has a good idea of what 'FX' is really about.
The piece of research is entitled "From Anecdote to Evidence" and employs a multi-disciplinary and multi-agency team.
It includes the following statement: quote:
".....from the beginning, the research teams acknowledged and
were faced with some substantial challenges with
availability and quality of data. In order to make
sure that the data and subsequent results were as
good as could be achieved, the Church of England
Research and Statistics Unit worked with the teams
to prepare the data which the Church already holds
centrally. The result is a much–improved data set
which can be further analysed in the future"
My reply to LambChopped was prompted by her assertion that we shouldn't take figures quoted in the media for granted. This piece of research hardly qualifies as that IMHO.
At least there is an attempt to analyse some evidence, along with the understanding of some of the problems in gathering such evidence. The conclusions merit some thoughtful discussion.
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
Can someone help me understand figure 1 on page 10 of the report? What does high/low share mean? I'm sorry to be dumb, but I can't see where it is discussed in the text.
I think there is a very significant over-count as to church effectiveness outside of the traditional forms of church - and actually this is often counting people who are just accessing free services (as they would a public library).
For example, in my town local churches put on a large jamboree for children in the Summer. Whilst it is probably true that a significant number of children attend this (to have free goes on the activities etc), I think it is hard to argue that they've all had meaningful engagement with church. It is rare for the church people who run it to even get to know the names of more than a handful of children.
As a little secondary point, I've noticed in many towns (we've been looking at moving, so we've unfortunately been through the process of looking at churches in a lot of different places), there are a lot of small churches which apparently/superficially seem very similar. How do we know that such places are not just moving people around? There is growth of the number of churches, but do we actually know that there are more people in them?
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The chart is basically suggesting there are four types of setting
- High proportion of the population (share) go to Church
- High Growth Potential i.e. Middle Class Suburbs
- Low Growth Potential i.e. Rural villages
Low proportion of the population (share) go to church
- High Growth Potential i.e. Urban areas with many Christian Immigrants
- Low Growth Potential i.e. Towns and cities where there are struggling white populations
Working on this sort of model the Church should abandon the white working class sink estates! We are not strong there and there is little potential for growth.
Jengie
p.s. This is what the report says, I do not agree with it but white urban mission is the hardest sort to do.
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
By and large, the white working class haven't 'got' religion for a long time and there's been a steady decline in indigenous working class engagement in church since at least the early 1800s.
Incidentally, Jengie, I don't think the report is saying that the Anglican church should pull out of white working class 'sink estates' and so on, but if we were to take a purely 'market-led' model as per that particular growth-potential matrix then that's what all churches - of whatever stripe - would be doing.
@Felafool, of course the cleric I mentioned knew he was making a sarky statement - but I'd suggest that there is more than a little truth in it - along the lines that Pydseybare suggests in a different context ...
It does seem to me that 'any contact with church' is counted by Fresh Expressions types as some kind of 'significant contact with church' even if it's simply coming along and bouncing up and down on a church-run bouncy castle every now and then ...
Of course, some contact is better than no-contact in bums-on-seats (or feet on bouncy castles) terms but if we're talking 'church growth' I suspect the impression given is that we are talking about people who are being 'churched' by the experience ...
I know that probably sounds as cynical as the cleric I quoted, but I don't mean it to be. I'd applaud many of these efforts, but I think there's a balance between getting uncritically excited about some of the results on the one hand or seeing it all as a lost cause/hopeless exercise on the other ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
Thanks for your comments Gamaliel. I agree with your last comment:
quote:
I think there's a balance between getting uncritically excited about some of the results on the one hand or seeing it all as a lost cause/hopeless exercise on the other ...
I'm just concerned that a report such as this immediately stirs up the cynical questioning of the data and analysis. (Not to mention the mistrust of anything the 'media' regurgitates, although as I said before, in this case I think that is an oily fish of a ruddy hue.)
I think the implications behind the cynicism is that either the CofE hierarchy is trying to put a positive spin on something, or the local churches are deliberately hyping the figures. Both are possible, but I think the report is genuinely trying to use evidence to indicate why growth might happen or why it might not. The very last page also acknowledges the grace of God in all of this.
Surely missional disciples need to understand the times and seasons, and set their sails accordingly? One thing is for sure, if we carry on doing things the way they have always been done, we'll get the same results...in this case, decline.
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It does seem to me that 'any contact with church' is counted by Fresh Expressions types as some kind of 'significant contact with church' even if it's simply coming along and bouncing up and down on a church-run bouncy castle every now and then ...
In a similar way, many denominations ask for (and publish) numbers of "children and young people in contact with church" which can be frankly misleading. For instance, our church has 100+ young people who fit into this category by virtue of belonging to Guides or Scouts; but of those only perhaps 25 are ever present at church services and under 10 are regular members of the church community.
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
n a similar way, many denominations ask for (and publish) numbers of "children and young people in contact with church" which can be frankly misleading. For instance, our church has 100+ young people who fit into this category by virtue of belonging to Guides or Scouts; but of those only perhaps 25 are ever present at church services and under 10 are regular members of the church community.
Why do they do that? Who, actually, are they trying to impress?
This is one of the things that drives me mad about church: lying to ourselves about things we must know are not true.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I'm not sure that it's an intentional ploy to deceive - it's just the simplest way of counting as it includes everyone who passes through your doors.
To be fair, one denomination I know publishes these figures alongside the "average number of children at Sunday worship". That is much the same as publishing notional figures of church membership or affiliation (notoriously unreliable as different denominations have completely different ideas of what these might mean) alongside average Sunday attendances.
I have to say that, when some Ministers say, "we have 100 people at church each week" or even (as happened here) "there were 2000 people at our Pentecost event", I mentally reduce the figure by a third. There is a real tendency to "talk things up", perhaps because good numbers are seen as a sign of pastoral/entrepreneurial "success".
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Don't get me wrong, Felafool, I think it is a good and well-presented report ... but I'm afraid, as Baptist Trainfan has indicated, there is a tendency across the board to 'big things up'.
No names, no pack-drill, but I know of an instance where a parish church's expenditure (with some grant aid) on a refurbishment project was literally doubled in the report which appeared in its diocesan newsletter ...
As for the 'results' from evangelistic campaigns and so on ... just don't get me started on that ...
In this instance, I don't suspect there's jiggery-pokery going on with figures and so on - the report is sober and acknowledges where there are worrying trends - less than half of all CofE churches have children under 16 for instance ...
What I'd question is the degree to which some of the participants cited in the Fresh Expressions instances are actively engaged with church in the traditional sense ...
Not that this diminishes or contradicts/undermines the value of such experiments and initiatives ... but I think they should be evaluated in a different way than the traditional bums on pews criteria ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Well in our neck of the woods on Saturday there were 56 children and 30 adults at the Messy Church. A few (less than 10) are regular Sunday attendees.
More come to one of the midweek children's groups (about 30), the remainder only come to Messy Church - which is actually called something else.
If we were counting for the purposes of reporting (we actually only know how many because of the name badges), then we'd have to work hard to avoid double counting.
As regards denominational surveys, these - by their nature - take place on one day each year. That may or may not be a representative Sunday. Counting includes those who "access" facilities and there will be an element then of creative accounting. Some denominations have also changed the basis of counting from people per week to people per month - unsurprisingly the decline in attendance is smaller that way.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Absolutely, pydseybare - to that and to the thing about the number who allegedly 'got saved' ... which tends to mean in many instances that they were simply directed to pray a prayer of repentance copying someone else's words ...
Don't get me started on that either ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
This is one of the things that drives me mad about church: lying to ourselves about things we must know are not true.
When you bring in commercial measures to evaluate churches, why would you expect the pressure to be any different?
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
And I agree with ExclamationMark too ... which doesn't negate the value of the midweek and Messy Church initiatives he's citing ... but it does indicate that we need a different criteria for dealing with these.
It'd probably be difficult to administer, but I'd suggest that a more accurate way to account for the numbers in such cases would be to have a table which showed:
- Numbers at the 'regular' service.
- Numbers at the midweek youth group.
- Numbers at Messy Church (not including helpers who would otherwise be at the 'regular' service.
I'd go so far as to suggest that the overall impression of growth is a chimera. What we are seeing across the board is decline - and that applies almost everywhere - if not everywhere other than certain ethnic minority/migrant churches in some of the large cities.
Sure, individual places will be doing well and that's great, but overall numbers are down however we cut them - and this report does acknowledge that, to be fair.
So, it's not a question of being cynical but about being realists.
A realist would say that there are some encouraging signs in some places and a bucking of the overall downward trend - but there's still a downward trend.
That may bottom out eventually, I don't know.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sorry to double-post ...
Absolutely, Chris Stiles - and this was the point that the clergyman I quoted earlier was trying to make ...
He's not cynical about community engagement, Messy Church or whatever else - nor Fresh Expressions necessarily - what he's opposed to is the desire to quantify everything in commercial terms as if the church is a business ...
He feels that a lot of able and committed clergy are under pressure to 'perform' and to deliver the goods. He also feels that some of the more evangelical types are driven by management-speak and marketing rather than an holistic approach to the whole-person as it were ... although, very liberal though he is, he does have a lot of time for certain evangelicals.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
In my view, the increase in cathedral attendance is actually quite an indictment of much of the Church in this country. Why do we think this growth has occurred? OK, there may be many different reasons, but surely we should ask what marks out cathedrals as fundamentally different from other types of church contexts. Cathedrals are a place where there is a measure of anonymity. They are places people can go without feeling hassled and put upon by religious people. Ordinary people who are hungry for God may find a cathedral setting conducive to seeking Him, without having to be entangled with the demands, politics and psychological stress of the Christian community.
If this is the case, then this type of growth is really a disappointment for the control freaks in Christendom, who rather hope that more bums on seats - or in pews - mean more money and more Christian workers at the coal face, ready to be given their marching orders. It's a kind of growth which is in a different category altogether to the growth of churches which champion close and - let's be honest, often intrusive - fellowship.
The growth in cathedral attendance is not good news for those who favour a certain view of what constitutes "church". How can such people be controlled and herded? They are looking for anyonymity. They are, dare I suggest, actually looking for God.
Perhaps, instead of Christian sociologists and Church growth analysts feeling too smug about this trend, they should actually hear what the trend is saying: many people don't like what they perceive to be Christian fellowship, but are really rather interested in God. Hence a quiet seat at the back of a large gothic cathedral, where no one will hassle me, and I can actually get my head together without some "oh so concerned" religious person breathing down my neck, and trying to control my life!
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
When you bring in commercial measures to evaluate churches, why would you expect the pressure to be any different?
Well.. because it is a religious group that claims to value truth..
Of course - but even if on average they were slightly more truthful, that would still leave a lot of wiggle room.
This corruption of nature doth persist, and all that.
[ 10. February 2014, 16:12: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare
That's an interesting thought, EE.
I think I'd agree there is a lack of introspective religion. I'm not sure how many people are really looking for that.
I can also imagine that many would say that people who go to Cathedrals to avoid 'fellowship' are not real believers.
I don't know why you mentioned "introspective religion" in response to my comment, considering that I never referred to anything like that. Seeking God is not 'introspective', if that's what you think, unless you think God is not an objective reality, but merely a description of some aspect of one's own internal state.
Furthermore, I would not say that people who go to cathedrals are necessarily avoiding fellowship, but rather the wrong kind of fellowship. There is a certain kind of 'fellowship' which gets in the way of fellowship with God, and I would say that some of those who promote it are not always in a right relationship with God.
But my main observation about these statistics is that we cannot assume that growth in certain church contexts is an endorsement of the health of the Church generally. That, I think, would be very naive.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I don't know why you mentioned "introspective religion" in response to my comment, considering that I never referred to anything like that. Seeking God is not 'introspective', if that's what you think, unless you think God is not an objective reality, but merely a description of some aspect of one's own internal state.
That isn't what I meant. I was attempting to give a name to the kind of contrast you expressed between cathedral worship (which you seemed to characterise as being essentially 'anonymous') and fellowship (involved?). I certainly did not mean to imply anything about the objective reality of the deity.
quote:
Furthermore, I would not say that people who go to cathedrals are necessarily avoiding fellowship, but rather the wrong kind of fellowship. There is a certain kind of 'fellowship' which gets in the way of fellowship with God, and I would say that some of those who promote it are not always in a right relationship with God.
Right, I think I understood what you meant, but you appear to have misunderstood my understanding as being criticism. It wasn't. I just thought it was an interesting point to discuss.
quote:
But my main observation about these statistics is that we cannot assume that growth in certain church contexts is an endorsement of the health of the Church generally. That, I think, would be very naive.
Fine.
I'm not sure I can be bothered to discuss things with you if you are going to jump down my throat.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
In my view, the increase in cathedral attendance is actually quite an indictment of much of the Church in this country. Why do we think this growth has occurred?
Because there is still a role for traditional, attractional church done well. This is beyond the capabilities for most parishes but Cathedrals have the clout to be able to put on a great service, with well rehearsed choral music, art etc. and provide a focus for large regional events. It taps into the residual memory of national Christianity and is a good point of contact for some. The report acknowledges this.
The problems is when the local priests are supposed to replicate this in ten church benefices all by themselves. Or, in the case of the some evangelical traditions, trying to imitate Spring Harvest Big Top/ Soul Survivor or what ever with two small speakers and a handful of three chord wonders on guitar 50 weeks of the year.
For regular congregants at a Cathedral there are still plenty of opportunities for proper fellowship and service in even bigger flower rotas etc. There is a way into genuine Christian community because Cathedrals are run on much the same voluntary lines as anywhere else.
FX and Pioneer ministry goes way beyond the regular church boundaries. These movements are seeking to multiply and be church where there is none. It goes to people who are not attracted to an existing offering of church. There is many an evangelical congregation that is inward looking and declining.
Any church is only one generation from extinction. The church survives through multiplication and by being contextual. Being contextual often means redefining what church is and allowing those who are not currently numbered on the electoral role to define what being church is for them.
Cathedral worship is here to stay as part of a mixed economy of worship because one size does not fit all. Sometimes ancient practices are the right fit and may be reinvented.
Fresh Expressions are likely to become an increasingly important part of the mix. But remember, the Book of Common Prayer was fresh once upon a time!
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
In my view, the increase in cathedral attendance is actually quite an indictment of much of the Church in this country. Why do we think this growth has occurred?
Because there is still a role for traditional, attractional church done well. This is beyond the capabilities for most parishes but Cathedrals have the clout to be able to put on a great service, with well rehearsed choral music, art etc. and provide a focus for large regional events ...
The problems is when the local priests are supposed to replicate this in ten church benefices all by themselves ...
But isn't there something horribly consumerist in all this? Something which conceives Christianity as something which one passively enjoys? And won't this ultimately lead to the complete collapse of ordinary local churches in small communities?
Perhaps I am too "Baptist" - but doesn't Paul's notion of "the Body" suggest involvement as the sine qua non of authentic church life?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I've 'been' a Baptist, Baptist Trainfan and would by no means 'knock' what you're saying ... but I can certainly understand the appeal of cathedrals.
If I lived in a cathedral city I'd probably attend one myself.
I don't think anyone here is saying that it's the only way or the 'right' way or anything of that kind - simply that it's part of the mixed economy that, like it or not, we have ended up with for historical, cultural, theological and a whole lot of other reasons.
One might equally accuse the Baptist option of being 'consumerist' or the Methodist, the URC, the Salvation Army, the Orthodox ...
As soon as there are a multiplicity of options and not one single, monolithic one then we are all running the risk of 'consumerism' to some extent or other it seems to me.
I'm not sure I'd see the apparent growth in cathedral attendance as an 'indictment' on the rest of the church/es in the way that EE suggests, but I can understand the point he is making.
I don't know how many of us here saw that documentary series on cathedrals recently?
The best one, to my mind, was the one about Wells Cathedral. They had interviews with regulars who included all viewpoints from the very evangelical - but someone who now wanted liturgy and tradition and yet acknowledged their debt and respect for evangelicalism and 'gathered' churches - to the very liberal and heterodox to the downright 'out there' new-agey ...
I found myself wondering how a conventional parish church or a gathered, non-conformist church could possibly accommodate such a wide selection of people and views ...
The reality is that they probably couldn't ...
Whether one regards that as a good thing or a bad thing depends on where one stands.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I think there are different ways of 'doing' community and engaging with community ... intentionality can be expressed in different ways.
The problem, I think, with the more 'congregational' approach is that, despite its strengths, it can become very claustrophobic if you're not careful.
There was a point in the mid-80s when I was effectively cut off from almost everything else because of my so full-on involvement with church. It took over.
So I can well understand the appeal of cathedrals. They provide room to breathe ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
Fresh Expressions are likely to become an increasingly important part of the mix. But remember, the Book of Common Prayer was fresh once upon a time!
But the point about Fresh Expressions is that it's an ethos, rather than a specific method, right?. A specific way of doing church services or being church in the broader sense might be fresh and relevant here and now, but irrelevant and ineffective in a few years' time (or indeed at the present but in a different place).
ISTM Fresh Expressions as a general approach is absolutely the way forward for the UK, given that fewer and fewer people are familiar with the basics of Christianity. The attractional approach, perhaps illustrated by cathedrals and similar churches, is fine for drawing in people who still have a positive regard for Jesus and Christianity, but for those who are ignorant of or even hostile towards the faith, I think it's obvious that a different approach is needed.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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DOEPUBLIC
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# 13042
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Posted
Intriguing discussion with intriguing parameters.
The tension between a community and individual perspective. Anecdote or research. The tension between a digitally, discrete measurement and a continuous analogue one. Reflected in the balance of Spirit and Truth.
Too me simple truths of the farmer are being traded for those of the multi-national industry.
Performance figures of athletes and soldiers, when the quality of crop is not ensured.
Failure to sit together, because people are too busy running and fighting. Making stands and conquering territory. I choose no longer to attend church since I found it unsafe for me.
[ 10. February 2014, 17:38: Message edited by: DOEPUBLIC ]
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DOEPUBLIC
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# 13042
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Posted
.......Does that make me a fresh expression... Or expressionless?
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
When I first got involved with a froup of Fresh Expression trainees three or so years back there was a recognition from the gals leading the group (they were gals with some blokes helping out from time to time) that whilst there were some cracking FEs getting people seriously thinking about faith, they were some pretty flaky ones knocking around as well. My impression is that the quality bar is going up a notch or two. Looking back on the research I see they've been asking questions about how much effort's going into 'discipling' people who rock up to FEs. I'd like more detail on what that means in reality, but see some significance in the fact the question's being asked.
I was brought up in a Christian world where joining church meant 'getting saved then added.' You had to sign a contract 'get saved' before you could go through a membership course (and usually get baptised) before you were 'in.' FEs, along with other missional communities in other contexts are OK with you 'getting added' before you get saved. First off you are invited to join a community where, amongst other stuff, you get to explore faith. In a post-Christian society I reckon that's a decent enough space to start.
I don't know too much about communities in Cathedrals, but from this thread plus the few people I know who are involved with 'em they are big buildings housing a lot of smaller communities (choirs, discussion groups, social action stuff). The whole idea of the big building was to remind you how great God is and they have an attractional quality about them which helps plenty of people explore spirituality. At some point in my own spiritual journey I'd like to get involved with a Cathedral - the mission potential is massive - and I reckon I'd learn a stack of stuff about how people share their faith in a Cathedral context.
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The Midge
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# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
In my view, the increase in cathedral attendance is actually quite an indictment of much of the Church in this country. Why do we think this growth has occurred?
Because there is still a role for traditional, attractional church done well. This is beyond the capabilities for most parishes but Cathedrals have the clout to be able to put on a great service, with well rehearsed choral music, art etc. and provide a focus for large regional events ...
The problems is when the local priests are supposed to replicate this in ten church benefices all by themselves ...
But isn't there something horribly consumerist in all this? Something which conceives Christianity as something which one passively enjoys? And won't this ultimately lead to the complete collapse of ordinary local churches in small communities?
Perhaps I am too "Baptist" - but doesn't Paul's notion of "the Body" suggest involvement as the sine qua non of authentic church life?
I have several years at a Baptist church under my belt and several other non-conformist types too. I'm thankful for that heritage being in the mix.
I have rarely attended a Cathedral and am more likely to see proceedings at a Royal Wedding or some such televised event.
Consumer church can happen in any context. It is countered by having a sense of mission. Of reaching a stage of maturity that realises that we need to leave our comfort zone and reach out to those on the outside by breaching the barriers on our side. To boldly go...
Besides what is authentic church life? Or should that be discipleship? A call to follow Christ isn't a call to be like one of us.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
A lot depends on what you mean by 'getting saved' of course - that isn't necessarily going to be there in the traditional evangelical sense in a cathedral context, Truman White ... but that doesn't mean that the people involved aren't engaged in the faith ...
I think South Coast Kevin has raised an interesting point about the appeal of cathedrals being more towards those with a positive view of the Christian faith in the first place - although I'd suggest that they can also appeal to people who have a less defined view of spirituality ... new age-y and 'ley line' types as well as people with a Christian background.
As to what is likely to appeal to people who are completely unchurched and who haven't the faintest idea of what church/Christianity etc looks or feels like ... well, I don't really know what the answer is to that one.
It seems to me that whatever style or expression it is - whether a 'Fresh Expression' or a more traditional one - authenticity and genuine concern for people is the key.
You can have the most 'relevant' style imaginable (however you imagine it) but if that authenticity isn't there then you can forget it ...
I think Truman White makes an interesting point about the quality improving as the Fresh Expressions thing continues ... that's encouraging - but I also feel that the 'better' we get at things then some of the authenticity might be compromised ...
I think however we do church there's always some kind of compromise or trade off. Where we draw the line on that is the tricky part.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
posted by Bro James quote:
Presumably its 'fresh expression' nature flows from a recognition that 30 years on it is no longer what it was in the 80s, and something needs to be done. Patterns and the demography of churchgoing have changed hugely in the last three decades.
Sorry Bro J, you mis-read me - perhaps I expressed myself badly too:
What I meant by quote:
...having regular numbers of under 30s in the 80s, a youth group of 80-100 every week and 40-60 under 16s at every family worship session ...
was around 80 people under the age of 30, not number in the 30s during the 1980s - sorry!
What concerned my church-shopping mate was that the FE model was being widely quoted as a massive success, with its minister happy to be criticise surrounding parishes for 'failure to mission'. Old pal was so puzzled they did their own head-count and quickly discovered the numbers being claimed for the FE outfit were complete fiction.
Since the mate had this experience our area has also been on the receiving end of an FE plant - and we too are being told of huge numbers (especially for youth events) which don't tally with the reality on the ground.
Now I know this is only 2 but - is there a pattern here?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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tomsk
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# 15370
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Posted
Fresh expressions covers a wide range of things.
Creating positive experiences of churches can plant seeds/create a periphery. Messy church at our church does have unchurched people, but I don't think all that many. But even if it could be reaching more people, I still think it's valuable anyway in helping fellowship of christians/kids who do go.
Other types do evangelism through relationship/building community. As Truman says upthread, belonging may come before believing. These need a lot of commitment over a long time. For example, this one in Bristle. It sounds really worhtwhile, but superficially might sound less like instant success than a messy church. Or pioneer ministers.
I started going to church at St Bride's Fleet Street, 'cos I wanted to hear nice music. It started me on a journey to faith. I was anonymous and liked it, but eventually I wanted different things. It's important to have different places/styles/people (all things to all people so some might be won for Christ).
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Maybe some are fixated with numbers.
I heard someone talking about their job with the Christians Against Poverty debt centre. They seemed to believe that it was a great bonus to state that 10 (I think, I have a poor memory for precise numbers) 'got saved' as part of the course. Clearly the fact that x people were helped with their debt problems is not enough.
The reality is that churches that want to do social outreach without building up their core membership are living on borrowed time. Forget St. Paul's embarrassing references to salvation if you like, but churches can't function if they neglect recruitment. That should be obvious.
I admit, I didn't pay great attention to the figures in this report, because I didn't imagine that they'd indicate any sort of great turnaround for the church. Where Christians have a vision and are working hard and courageously in faith there are bound to be successes. But putting figures on that must be hard, especially with the fairly new and fluid movement that is FE.
quote:
I've noticed in many towns (we've been looking at moving, so we've unfortunately been through the process of looking at churches in a lot of different places), there are a lot of small churches which apparently/superficially seem very similar. How do we know that such places are not just moving people around? There is growth of the number of churches, but do we actually know that there are more people in them?
What kind of churches are they? The historical churches aren't doing a huge amount of planting, and if they are they won't be trying to duplicate what's already available. Any duplication will be historical. OTOH, if these are newly established charismatic congregations, they don't seem to mind a degree of competition. I suppose it proves that there's a market in place for what they have to offer. And some churches are geared towards particular ethnic groups, even though they might be theologically similar to churches that are already present.
BTW, sorry if this is a nosey tangent, but you said on an earlier thread that you didn't believe in going to church, so why do you need to go 'looking at churches' if you're moving house?
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tomsk
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# 15370
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Posted
To be fair to the Christians Against Poverty person, the whole ethos of CAP is to use debt relief as a means to evangelism
Posts: 372 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2009
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The reality is that churches that want to do social outreach without building up their core membership are living on borrowed time. Forget St. Paul's embarrassing references to salvation if you like, but churches can't function if they neglect recruitment. That should be obvious.
Well I'm not sure it is that obvious. There is a dangerous parallel between church and business in the language you are using here, I think.
At a fundamental level, I think, it is God who is in charge of the church (or the individual church), not we who belong (whatever that means).
There is a life of movements, including birth, growth, expansion and death. I don't think there is any reason to believe that any given church congregation is immune from death.
quote:
I admit, I didn't pay great attention to the figures in this report, because I didn't imagine that they'd indicate any sort of great turnaround for the church. Where Christians have a vision and are working hard and courageously in faith there are bound to be successes.
I don't see faith in this way. Success is something only to be ascribed to God. We are called to be obedient, not successful.
quote:
But putting figures on that must be hard, especially with the fairly new and fluid movement that is FE.
I don't have anything useful to say about FE.
quote:
What kind of churches are they? The historical churches aren't doing a huge amount of planting, and if they are they won't be trying to duplicate what's already available. Any duplication will be historical.
Well my observation is that they're recent churches, often very or broadly charismatic, often meeting in school or village halls, often with a single strong leader. From the outside, the differences in origin and theology are less than the similarities of practice. From what I hear, people move fairly easily between these groups (some are part of denominations or networks, others seem entirely independent).
It appears that this is often the model that Anglican plants also often reflect.
quote:
OTOH, if these are newly established charismatic congregations, they don't seem to mind a degree of competition. I suppose it proves that there's a market in place for what they have to offer. And some churches are geared towards particular ethnic groups, even though they might be theologically similar to churches that are already present.
I think there is a convergence within the charismatic and/or evangelical middle which means that there is a large number of Christians who think this is the 'correct' way to do church - possibly influenced by New Wine, various church planting movements, GOD tv and whatnot. As far as I'm concerned, there is actually a reduction in 'choice' of church types with many churches converging upon this from different directions.
quote:
BTW, sorry if this is a nosey tangent, but you said on an earlier thread that you didn't believe in going to church, so why do you need to go 'looking at churches' if you're moving house?
Yeah, that's an impressive bit of memory. The only answer is that it is complicated. I've never stopped attending church, but I feel totally disengaged and wonder why I bother. I wouldn't go if it was just about my feelings.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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