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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Church Growth (latest instalment)
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Fairy snuff. I tend to leave lines between my sentences and short paragraphs because I can have a tendency to go on and on and on ... I need to learn brevity. I reckon that people might be fazed by big chunks of text. It seems that the opposite is the case and that they're fazed by the white space.
I can't win.
No. You are right. Line breaks and paragraph breaks make text easier to read, not harder.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Fairy snuff. I tend to leave lines between my sentences and short paragraphs because I can have a tendency to go on and on and on ... I need to learn brevity. I reckon that people might be fazed by big chunks of text. It seems that the opposite is the case and that they're fazed by the white space.
I can't win.
No. You are right. Line breaks and paragraph breaks make text easier to read, not harder.
Rather a tangent, this, but while we're on it, I find the same thing that Truman White does; posts with a line space between every sentence are pretty well unreadable because every line space breaks up the flow of meaning and makes the text completely disjointed. In contrast, the post quoted above from Gamaliel was far easier to read. But I also agree that more than (say) 10 lines of unbroken text can be daunting.
So, I suggest that Gamaliel could indeed win by composing text in paragraphs of a few sentences at a a time, with a line break between each paragraph. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Angus
Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Chorister's point, re a focus of unity, is I think well made. We're human. We like to know that someone knows what's going on when we are all together, and if each different person does stuff differently...actually it unsettles congregations.
Were I a Bishop (and I'm not!) I'd listen carefully to the other stuff that Chorister says as well. All this stuff applies across church traditions; the current situation hits us all, equally.
But ask a church to maybe contemplate changing the ways that Anything is done.... and (short of a Parish Share Debate), one has a riot on one's hands.
Because "Why Should We?"
My guess is, answer THAT question and all the rest comes easy.............
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
Rather a tangent, this
hosting/
Yes it is. Comments on other posters' punctation, layout and so on, are utterly irrelevant to the thread, so please desist. Starting a fresh thread on the topic (outside Hell) is not recommended either.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Fairy snuff. I tend to leave lines between my sentences and short paragraphs because I can have a tendency to go on and on and on ... I need to learn brevity. I reckon that people might be fazed by big chunks of text. It seems that the opposite is the case and that they're fazed by the white space.
I can't win.
You always win some mate ![[Biased]](wink.gif) . Thanks for the response.
BTW - if there was one thought from this thread you reckon one or both of the churches you're involved with would appreciate, what would that be?
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Good question. The best thing they could both do is listen to me, of course ... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I'm not sure of the answer, to be honest. The evangelical parish will probably continue to do well among its particular constituency. I think they would feel vindicated by the comments/findings in the report about community involvement - although I do think they miss/overlook some opportunities in this respect that don't quite fit with their evangelical paradigm.
They would also undoubtedly like the 'intentionality' comments and the thing about being committed to a particular style or tradition or worship and aiming to do that well - although from what my wife tells me (I wasn't there this morning) the drums were bashed rather dreadfully this morning ...
This would probably encourage them to be less mix-and-match and aim for greater consistency across both the 9am and 11am services. This is happening already, I detect, with the vicar introducing what he calls 'prayer ministry' with 'trained' people being on hand to pray with anyone who might wish to be preyed upon .. ahem, I mean prayed for ...
With the more liberal parish, well, sometimes I think they're not really that bothered whether people turn up or not. I suspect that may change in future if or when the current incumbent moves on. All that said, I think they'd pick up on some of the community engagement aspects and their building is well placed to offer opportunities for that sort of thing ... it's increasingly used as a concert venue, for instance and the acoustics and ambience are excellent for that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
With the more liberal parish, well, sometimes I think they're not really that bothered whether people turn up or not. I suspect that may change in future if or when the current incumbent moves on.
If may ask, why do you think this will change in future? Is it unlikely that they'll get a similar kind of vicar?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I can't say too much without identifying where I am.
They'll get the same 'kind' of vicar, undoubtedly, but not all clergy in that particular tradition within the Anglican communion would take the same approach as this one does ...
He's a personal friend, but I don't go along with all of his views/ways of doing things and my theology is more conservative than his would be.
But that's by the by.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
That's interesting. IME of Methodism, ministers come and go, and they each have their own distinctive way of engaging with the wider community, but this isn't normally couched in the language of evangelism. I wouldn't necessarily expect an incoming minister to be more evangelistic than the one before.
BTW, has anyone mentioned Back 2 Church Sunday yet? Has it had much traction in any of the churches Shipmates have heard of? I don't think it's mentioned in the link. Like most new initiatives, it seems to work best in churches that are already on a fairly successful trajectory. I'm reminded of Matthew 13:12, 'For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.'
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Back2Church Sunday might at least teach folk how to welcome with a handshake and looking one in the eye.....
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Back2Church Sunday might at least teach folk how to welcome with a handshake and looking one in the eye.....
Let's hope so! Certainly it seems like a good opportunity for pastors / ministers to remind people of how important it is to be welcoming and open to newcomers, visitors and guests.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
SvitlanaV2 - I'm not necessarily suggesting that a new incumbent in that church would couch their outreach/community engagement activities in the language of evangelism ...
I don't really want to discuss that particular instance on line, to be honest. However, the point I was trying to make was that the mileage varies within each tradition on these things ...
Some 'liberal catholics' mightn't be evangelistic in the way this is understood by evangelicals, for instance, but they may be more 'evangelistic' within the terms and framework that they might use.
If that makes sense.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I suppose it could be said that everything a church does is evangelism, even if that term is never used. Renting out the church building for concerts or for Weight Watchers groups, etc. is all part of making the church space less scary and alien to the wider community. Foodbanks and suchlike may have the same effect, but for less privileged people.
Whether these activities contribute to church growth depends on how we're calculating such growth. Maybe they subtly help to disseminate a more positive attitude towards Christianity and church communities, which is presumably something positive in itself. But they're unlikely to attract more than a handful of people in to listen to sermons. It would be interesting to see if anyone's done any research on this.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Whether these activities contribute to church growth depends on how we're calculating such growth. Maybe they subtly help to disseminate a more positive attitude towards Christianity and church communities, which is presumably something positive in itself.
In some ways a lot of these activities are valuable insofar as they promote a positive attitude towards Christianity amongst the church community (and their children) itself.
Often, engagement with this sort of church can at least stop people leaving - or make them more likely to stick around as they enter their teens - as there is a kind of semi acceptableness in a societal normative sense to their particular church.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Not necessarily, the church I'm thinking of has hardly any teenagers or young people with kids - it has some, but not many.
I think in many parts of the country we're seeing increasing polarisation between the full-on evangelical type churches and those which take the kind of approach that SvitlanaV2 has mentioned here.
There are some both/and types. Equally, the sort of clergy I'm thinking of wouldn't believe that coming into a church and listening to sermons was the be-all and end-all either ...
They'd say there were more interested in spirituality in the general sense and wherever it was to be found ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Not necessarily, the church I'm thinking of has hardly any teenagers or young people with kids - it has some, but not many.
I'm not talking about the intentions of the particular leaders involved (assuming you were responding to my post) merely the second order effects.
Such churches can be more socially acceptable than the conservative charismatic outfit down the road or whatever.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
It's fashionable in certain circles (and here on the Ship, too) to criticise evangelical churches that seem to take a very commercial attitude towards church life and growth.
However, it occurs to me that liberal and moderate churches are often - and will increasingly have to be - very business-minded in the sense that keeping their doors open often requires them to maximise the letting potential of their buildings. Small Methodist congregations that have maintained their existence and their properties are almost always funded to a considerable extent by these means. Yet this seems to be taken for granted; very few Christian books or websites try to advise British churches on how to do this successfully. This seems to be a grave mistake, because Church growth isn't normally served by church buildings closing; the opposite is true.
Not every congregation is realistically going to have a vision to work directly for physical growth. Of those that do, many will fail. But there may still be value in a small congregation in a cavernous historical building continuing its 'presence in the community'. Their engagement may still, very occasionally, bring a few new people into the church to help run things as time goes on. But putting it bluntly, none of this can happen if there's no money coming in.
The theologians should be writing books about where the Holy Spirit is in all of this.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
I think it can be very hard to predict whether being business minded will help or not. One of the churches I attend got itself rather deeply into a long-term death hole by trying to be business minded. They rented out so much of their building because they needed the money that it was very hard to do any ministry. It took a pastor and deacon who were more interested in doing ministry than surviving to take some of the space back and start using it. Now the church is doing better financially than it has any time the last ten (probably 20) years. I think the budget is barely in the red at all--as good as it will get for a church that pays the bills with grants and donations from elsewhere--and the congregation is back up to previous levels, maybe higher.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
This is why churches need good advice. But it's rarely available.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
Deckchairs. Titanic. The lede (or at least the context) was very heavily buried. "(statistics show a decline of 9% in all age average weekly attendance over the past decade)."
If you went by the survey, you'd assume that more churches were growing than shrinking. You'd also assume that they took all reports at face value - they might have.
And what did they find? Engagement breeds engagement. Vicars can't cope if spread too thin. Fresh Expressions can come up with good numbers. All not exactly rocket science - and more to the point they should all come out of the handbooks for running any successful social club.
I'm personally of the view that the Church will keep losing the young until it regains the moral high ground. It's currently lost it among the young against most people this side of the BNP thanks to various Dead Horses issues. And the vision point needs to come from the top - Webley going after Wonga was a good start, let down by the Commissioners. But the CofE has one real advantage; a massive pulpit. It needs to use it.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
I'm personally of the view that the Church will keep losing the young until it regains the moral high ground.
I think church membership is largely in reversion to the historical mean. I don't think the various hot topic issues are the primary issue that young people might look elsewhere - even if it is their spoken rationale. People who end up believing find a spectrum of ways of handling those issues - be it unspoken/vocal agreement to unspoken/vocal disagreement. Scandals have a marked, but relatively local effect if you look at things statistically.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Couple of generalisations coming up, but going there anyway:
Youngsters:
* hate being embarrassed and sometimes church can just be embarrassing for them.
* like to have a sense of belonging.
* don't like being tutted at, alienated or having stuff done "at" them.
I guess it's for each church to work out how to include in the way that works for everyone
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I turn 25 this week so I fear I don't count as 'a youngster' anymore! But I basically agree with Justinian on this.
Dead Horses are a huge, huge issue to young people. Aside from young people who are religious conservatives themselves (CUs anyone?), the CoE is seen as a backwards, homophobic and misogynistic institution by most non-members I know (and tbh by a lot of younger members themselves!). It is absolutely the first thing they think of when someone mentions the church. Given that most conservative religious young people are in non-CoE churches (aside from maybe the odd strongly conservative diocese, Sussex springs to mind), the leadership can't rely on them and even amongst evangelicals the tide is turning.
Just from my own experiences of the Student Christian Movement, most members are Methodist (by a significant majority, and most are ministers' children), followed by the Church of Scotland and the URC. The CoE/SEC followed by the RCC come next, along with the Quakers and the evangelicals (yes we have some!). Anglicans (rather than people who attend Anglican churches because it's their nearest/student church) are a distinct minority. It is the same in CUs IME, although more Anglicans than Methodists there!
I don't know how much of that is helpful. For most of my Christian life (non-Christian parents) I have been in Sussex which perhaps skews things because churches there are so much more conservative than the average CoE church, aside from Brighton obviously but I never lived there.
[ 18. February 2014, 18:47: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
In the long run, the different factions of the CofE may have to agree to part ways over some of these DH issues, either formally or just in the sense of individuals moving on to churches where they don't have to be in conflict with others. I think the question for this thread is whether this will add to overall growth or decline.
Growth could occur if some of the more tolerant people outside the CofE see the more conservative members leaving and they themselves enter the CofE as a result. OTOH, the loss of the conservatives might not be sufficiently matched by more tolerant people coming in.
If it's the more tolerant people in the CofE who find themselves leaving, the 'rules' are unlikely to change any further in a tolerant direction and the CofE will become increasingly dominated by more conservative people.
I'm wondering what the other denominations will do. Should the Methodists, URC or other mainstream historical churches* become publicly committed to opening up on some of the DH issues they might have something to gain from any liberal exodus from the CofE. So far, though, these smaller denominations have been disinclined to commit themselves strongly one way or the other, and they're also very reluctant to step into the limelight. The last thing they seem to want is to become newsworthy, but without that they won't attract much interest.
(*I don't see the Quakers or Unitarians as mainstream in this conversation, although they're the most liberal groups re the DH issues. Maybe if the British Quakers introduced a few 'programmed' meetings they might attract some liberal Christians who wanted to worship in a more conventional way?)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Aside from young people who are religious conservatives themselves (CUs anyone?), the CoE is seen as a backwards, homophobic and misogynistic institution by most non-members I know (and tbh by a lot of younger members themselves!). It is absolutely the first thing they think of when someone mentions the church.
Yes, to an extent - but again I doubt that the thought process works in straight lines here.
After all, evangelicals - generally relatively conservative - have had quite a bit of relative success bringing in the completely un-churched, and empirically it doesn't appear that all of these new people are social conservatives.
I think people frequently dissociate their feelings about the church at large - with their feelings about a particular group of people they have just encountered
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Aside from young people who are religious conservatives themselves (CUs anyone?), the CoE is seen as a backwards, homophobic and misogynistic institution by most non-members I know (and tbh by a lot of younger members themselves!). It is absolutely the first thing they think of when someone mentions the church.
Yes, to an extent - but again I doubt that the thought process works in straight lines here.
After all, evangelicals - generally relatively conservative - have had quite a bit of relative success bringing in the completely un-churched, and empirically it doesn't appear that all of these new people are social conservatives.
I think people frequently dissociate their feelings about the church at large - with their feelings about a particular group of people they have just encountered
Hmm, given my experience of conservative evangelical churches that are successful in evangelism, it's more to do with keeping everyone so busy with social activities that they don't realise the nastier doctrines until they're too far in to easily quit.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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