Ship of Fools: Cathedrals - starts 12 November, BBC4

Thread: Cathedrals - starts 12 November, BBC4 Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Pia (# 17277) on :

Thought some people might be interested in this series which starts tomorrow, looking at the lift of three English cathedrals.

(Edit to title)

[ 11. November 2013, 19:14: Message edited by: Firenze ]

Posted by Kitten (# 1179) on :

Thanks for the heads up, I shall up my device to record this series

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

Are they particularly interesting lifts? Mirrors, pre-Raphaelite panels, that sort of thing? Or more medieval, with gargoyles that announce your floor in a mixture of sepulchral or squeaky tones? This could be a lot of fun.

(Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm sure folk here will be interested in this new series on cathedrals, lifts or no lifts.)

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

They are clearly designed to raise you to the heavenlies ... but will they succeed?

Posted by Pia (# 17277) on :

Gah! I previewed and everything. [brick wall]

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Since tomorrow never comes, I've edited the title.

It looks, from the trailers, likely to be interesting. I'm just surprised, given it's BBC4, they haven't called it Cathedrals Britannica.

Firenze
Heaven Host

Posted by Edith (# 16978) on :

19 minutes in. What a bore. A lot of posh blokes discussing mergers and money.

Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Edith:
19 minutes in. What a bore. A lot of posh blokes discussing mergers and money.

45 minutes in and still banging on about funding.

[Disappointed]

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

Seen it. Not impressed. Jonathan Greener looks as if he just loves being on the telly. Doesn't do much for the Church of England's image - mostly blokes, mostly posh, mostly boring.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

I loved the new alter. There that's the positive bits over.

The problem was that nothing was looked into properly, not the renovations, not the diocesan restructuring. Instead of the issues we just had Greener droning on and on.

As someone in the Wakefield diocese, all I can say is roll on the changes, the further we are removed from that lot the better.

Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :

It was dire: too many clergy (all of whom were posh and male) sitting about in posh drawing rooms drinking tea and talking about dioceses (is that the plural?); almost no lay people; little sense of what else a cathedral is about than ministering to its clergy and the very few (silent, grey) worshippers you saw.

I just thought, the people in this programme have absolutely no idea, no idea at all, of how the outside world might see them. (To be fair, this might have been editing -- but they seemed to be rushing towards irrelevance all on their own.) [Disappointed]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

O dear - what a shame! And this at a time when cathedral congregations are actually growing......

Ian J.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

I wondered if I'd missed anything. Apparently not, then.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Oddly, I turned to watch this where I had recorded it, and found I had somehow recorded "Snow, Sex and Sus.." something (it couldn't cope with the full title). I thought it was a good thing it was to be repeated, but now, I think I won't bother.

Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
(To be fair, this might have been editing -- ...

I think this is the case.
Being in the Wakefield Diocese geographically, if not theologically (I'm RC, my cathedral is in Leeds) I'm pretty familiar with the Cathedral and some of it's clergy/staff and it didn't seem an accurate representation at all. The camerawork especially seemed to pick up only the bits that made it seem parochial and poorly attended, neither of which is true, at least in my experience.

It'll be interesting to see what subject the other episodes concentrate on; whether the series tells you anything about cathedrals as a whole.

Incidentally, re: the building refit. That floor labyrinth really is lovely, and I'll be trying out the chairs on Saturday for this concert.

Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :

I'm sure it was the editing -- I imagine that people connected with Wakefield Cathedral feel pretty badly used by the BBC.

Certainly the representation of the cathedral as dark and empty bears no relation to the pictures on the Cathedral's own web site.

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

They can only edit from what they've actually got so I don't blame it entirely on editing. If there'd been some evidence of really getting to grips with the issues, and some evidence of active lay involvement then I think this would have been seen. Tony Macpherson contentedly eating biscuits was an editing choice but one with some basis in reality I suspect. Similarly Jonathan Greener's chuntering on. It wasn't out of character, the man has form.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
They can only edit from what they've actually got so I don't blame it entirely on editing.

I do.

Take the meeting between the deans of the 3 diocese and the guy with the flip chart:

One person started to speak in favour of the motion and instead of showing the arguement from both sides the BBC cut to The Wakefield Dean, in his armchair, giving his personal opinion.

Biased reportage at its worst.

Posted by Morlader (# 16040) on :

OK Jonathan Greening did come across as liking being on TV, but the program was entitled "Wakefield Cathedral" not "Leeds proposed (Anglican) Diocese". So reporting both sides of that proposal would've been inappropriate, IMHO.

The programme seemed to confuse diocese with cathedral. JG was shown as defending "his diocese" against the proposal. But it's the bishop's diocese, not the dean's.

The cathedral was quite obviously (and perhaps understandably) preoccupied with the rebuilding of the nave and the funding therefor. A different time or place could have been chosen resulting in a more 'rounded' view of cathedral life. Perhaps we will get that from Wells and/or Southwark.

But the accusation about 'posh blokes'? You weren't expecting a Songs_of_Praise-type series of interviews with worthies from the cathedral congo were you? (If that's what you want, I think SoP on Sunday next IS from Wakefield!) Anyway, there were interviews with 'ordinary' people, though JG was onscreen too much - I suspect due to editing as noted above. Incidentally, surely directors give instructions about what to film, having their own ideas about the thrust of the programme they want to make.

I look forward to seeing the next two programmes and, I hope, contrasting approaches.

Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :

Next week is Wells, so we won't get to see any other Wakefield-ians defending themselves.

The interviewer's question, 'If Jesus walked into Wakefield with £3 million in his pocket do you think he'd spend it like this?' obviously took the dean by surprise (though he did his best with it), and was described in the Times review the next day as cruel. I suppose it was.

The question throughout (apart from the 3 into 1 aspect) was whether this was a good way for the cathedral to spend money. Lots of other cathedrals do the same; Canterbury hasn't been without scaffolding for years. How far should we go to maintain our links with the past? Do we risk it becoming a barrier to worshipping God today?

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:

quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
They can only edit from what they've actually got so I don't blame it entirely on editing.
I do.

Take the meeting between the deans of the 3 diocese and the guy with the flip chart:

One person started to speak in favour of the motion and instead of showing the arguement from both sides the BBC cut to The Wakefield Dean, in his armchair, giving his personal opinion.

Biased reportage at its worst.

'One person started to speak in favour..'. That may be as far as it went. Perhaps JG interrupted. Who was that 'one person'? Was he possibly a lay person or a cleric of lower rank than JG?

Although this was an edited snapshot of the CofE in general and Wakefield diocese in particular I think it was a fairly accurate one.

Posted by Edith (# 16978) on :

Posh blokes? Yes. Worthies from the cathedral Congo on S of P? Well, I've never watched S of P so no idea, but actually I was very disappointed that the C of E, in this diocese at least and at the elevated leval of the cathedral hierarchy, is if this programme is anything to go by) has a wholly disproportionate number of posh blokes. No wonder much of the public perception of the C of E is of irrelevance.

But actually, although not a member. I think the programme did the church a huge disservice - whoever was responsible. The Anglicans of my acquaintance locally are a diverse lot and decidedly unposh.

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

I watched some of the repeat to check out the flip-chart sequence again. There wasn't much discussion shown from the meeting - the camera cut to Greener in his office after the 'pro-guy' had spoken. If the editing was biased it seems to have been biased against the Dean in that it made him look like a pompous windbag.

The flip-chart meeting looked pathetic. Is that what a 'high-powered' clerics' meeting looks like? Mugs of tea, assorted biscuits and the inevitable SWOT on a flip-chart?

It'll be interesting to see if other Cathedrals are shown in the same way.

Posted by dv (# 15714) on :

It was interesting to see the contrast on Songs of Praise that came from Wakefield Cathedral. Looked like a completely different place.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

This week was Wells and IMO a lot better than last week. Much less about clergy and politics, but more about the cathedral as a worshipping community. Rather than interviews with windbags in clerical shirts, there were interviews with lay people talking about their faith. Last weeks episode nearly put me off watching it again, but I'm glad I persevered as I really enjoyed this one.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by dv
It was interesting to see the contrast on Songs of Praise that came from Wakefield Cathedral. Looked like a completely different place.

There's a reason for that:

The BBC move in for SoP with a "theme" and a ready-made list of people - often with no connection to the church the programme is filmed in - either ready to do their sound-bite story or with it already filmed.

If you're really lucky (or really pushy) you may get permission for the cathedral choir to do one item - though less happens less and less often.

The idea that any SoP represents the worshipping community, either in that church or in the community where it is, is risible. And the SoP team have a musical agenda too so even if the filming takes place in an NEH middle-of-the-road parish you'll have at least some things in the broadcast that would never feature in the musical life of the church the programme comes from.

Posted by Miss Madrigal (# 15528) on :

After focusing on the earthly matters of running the building and the politics of the Wakefield diocese, then the spiritual focus of the people in Wells cathedral, I am looking forward to seeing what the Southwark programme looks at.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
It was dire: too many clergy (all of whom were posh and male) sitting about in posh drawing rooms drinking tea and talking about dioceses (is that the plural?);

That may have been Wakefield, but the focus at Wells was very much talking to people who had come to the cathedral to soak up the atmosphere of being in such an awe-inspiring place (mostly during general opening hours, rather than services). It was a very fine promotion for keeping church buildings open as much as possible.

It would be a good touch now if the last programme could focus on the actual services - but we will have to wait and see.

Posted by Uriel (# 2248) on :

I recorded the first two and watched them back to back last night. I felt the Wakefield one accurately reflected the politics and wrangling that can happen in contentious Synodical situations, especially when people's status is threatened. I say this as someone who was secretary to a Diocesan Synod for some years. They could have focussed more on the life of the Cathedral, and it was a shame they mostly showed midweek early morning services with two old ladies and a dog and not the whole community together on a Sunday.

The episode on Wells was fantastic, and not just because I'm from Somerset. There were some real human stories in there and it showed just how real faith is. I thought the interviewer was very good in giving people the space to open up and tell what were sometimes quite difficult stories. I also loved the fact that, being just a few miles from Glastonbury, you had a bit of "alternative" spirituality cropping up - with the allotment holder and his Chi Gong and the singing lady talking about ley lines. There's a good deal of that in Somerset, and it increases as you get closer to Glasto.

Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Uriel:
I recorded the first two and watched them back to back last night. I felt the Wakefield one accurately reflected the politics and wrangling that can happen in contentious Synodical situations, especially when people's status is threatened. I say this as someone who was secretary to a Diocesan Synod for some years. They could have focussed more on the life of the Cathedral, and it was a shame they mostly showed midweek early morning services with two old ladies and a dog and not the whole community together on a Sunday.

Apparently they filmed the whole of the Christingle Service, attendance 700+, and decided not to show any of it. [Roll Eyes]

The Wells episode was much better, speaking to a wide variety of people. The lay reader was incredible, and worth the ticket price by herself. I don't envy anyone with vertigo the job of organist though. Yikes.

Posted by simwel (# 12214) on :

I watched the final programme on Southwark. What a difference, and how well the senior clergy came across, they really seemed to be engaged in the real world and gave the impression that they actually had something between their ears. I thought a great advertisement for the Church of England. If only it was replicated throughout the other dioceses

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

My thoughts too simwel. I was impressed with Southwark. The Dean seemed very clued up and the impression I got was of a Cathedral very much in tune with its surroundings.

From what I know of Wakefield Cathedral there have been, and are, some equally clued up people and the Cathedral has been a venue for much that is equally worthy. Unfortunately, as the programme showed, the Yorkshire dioceses are currently dominated by the clueless.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Watching the Southwark programme now. It does come over rather well!

I suppose it helps that its our local cathedral and I've often been there and I've met most of the people they talk to (at least I've been in the same room at the same time as them, I don't know any of them well) and I also know the neighbourhood well - I pass through it almost every day, often multiple times.

But that bias aside, they do seem to have their heads screwed on.

Posted by Uriel (# 2248) on :

I enjoyed the Southwark programme and also felt it reflected well on the senior clergy. One difference between Southwark and the earlier programmes is that Southwark could easily have been a large parish church in its densely populated urban setting. As such, the programme was as much about how a large church, rather than a cathedral, in an urban area works. There are parish churches in London with a higher Sunday attendance rate than Southwark, so it's role as a large church in the area is less dominant. Compare that with Wells, where the cathedral is totally out of proportion to the size of settlement that it's in, or any of the churches for miles around, and you are dealing with a very different institution.

So while the "cathedral-ness" of Southwark was less pronounced, it did show a well run church with a lot of sensible people with a good concern for worship, mission and theology. And you don't get that on the box very often.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

As a former worshipper at Southwark I thought it came over well.
A cynic would say that Southwark Cathedral presses all the right buttons for a BBC producer. Still, I think that those are the right buttons to be pressing whether BBC producers like them or not.

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