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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Christmas
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Calling the unrealistic expectations that surround Christmas to Hell.
And all us who get suckered into the great commercial hype and actually expect that:
- we will all be surrounded by our wonderful loving family - and all those children in care, single older people are really not feeling distraught that everyone else is having an amazing Christmas;
- our dysfunctional families can sit in harmony for a day - they can't for the rest of the year when there are other things to distract them, why should they manage at Christmas when nothing is open?
- we can buy the perfect present for that dissatisfied child who hates everything, that this time they will be delighted with our offering, and not sneer or throw a tantrum;
- this time copious amounts of alcohol will make everyone mellow and there will be no shouting and fighting as has happened the last 10 years;
- we will be able to afford to create this monstrosity and not spend the rest of the year paying it off/saving for next year
- the whole world celebrates Christmas - when why should Muslims, Jews, Sikhs ...
This is more written in dread before spending the week working with troubled teenagers, many of whom are Jewish, Muslim and otherwise not Christian, and a number are in care. So far the place has been trashed several times, the last time in response to someone who has obviously bought into the myths putting up decorations.
Personally, it has been so much better since I cancelled Christmas a few years ago (we were living in a hostel for the homeless that year) and gave myself permission not to attempt recreate this mythical Christmas ever again. And this year I'm ticking a number of things off my bucket list.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I blame Charles Dickens.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
Yep, I just find Christmas seriously depressing. Our family only 'does' it to the extent that we have a meal together and buy one another inexpensive gifts. Even then, though, we're left feeling we're missing out on all the fun everyone else is supposed to be having.
When I go home after eating my (ordinary with no incredible trimmings) Christmas dinner to my lonely house and crap Christmas telly I wonder why my experience is so bleak. But maybe I'm wrong and everyone else is just pretending.
Could it be that most people wonder where all that 'magic' is that everyone keeps going on about?
Posts: 147 | From: Ingerland | Registered: Aug 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
What exactly is wrong with a family meal and presents ? What were you expecting, magic pants ?
(And what compels you to have a really plain meal ?)
[ 15. December 2013, 17:31: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Out with the Santa-believing years, I can't remember an enjoyable Christmas. Tedious at best, when not actively depressive. My SiL summed it up as a child when she said she preferred Boxing Day, because then you didn't have to be happy.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Well, I DO enjoy Christmas. I enjoy going to church to celebrate the incarnation of our Lord. I enjoy spending time with the family. I enjoy the food & drink. I enjoy giving and receiving presents. I enjoy taking some time off work I enjoy looking back over the year and thanking God it wasn't nearly as bad as it could have been.
If you don't enjoy it, that's entirely up to you, but please stop bleating on about it.
[ 15. December 2013, 17:54: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
So because you enjoy Christmas it's right to insist that everyone else does, including kids in care, children in homes where there will be no Christmas meal or presents this year? And two weeks without the support and food at school.
It wasn't Christmas I was calling to Hell but the unrealistic expectations that make it a difficult time for so many people.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
So because you enjoy Christmas it's right to insist that everyone else does, including kids in care, children in homes where there will be no Christmas meal or presents this year? And two weeks without the support and food at school.
Where did I say that?
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
If you don't enjoy it, that's entirely up to you, but please stop bleating on about it.
This bit here says to shut about not enjoying Christmas. Which was a complete misreading of the OP, which was never about my enjoyment or lack of it, but the way the unrealistic expectations add to the challenges many people face at this time of year.
Where did I say you couldn't enjoy Christmas?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Pooks
Shipmate
# 11425
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Posted
CK, as far as I am concerned, only two of of the six expectations that you have listed in the OP are 'I hope so, but we'll see.' in my book. The rest I am perfectly happy to leave well alone. However, given the context of the people that you have to work with, I can see how Christmas can be a real bitch for some.
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Personally, it has been so much better since I cancelled Christmas a few years ago (we were living in a hostel for the homeless that year) and gave myself permission not to attempt recreate this mythical Christmas ever again. And this year I'm ticking a number of things off my bucket list.
I don't know how you 'cancel' Christmas, because whether you choose to celebrate it or not, it is a religious marker in the calendar that is known in many parts of the world. I think Christmas is a time that brings both the best and the worst out of people. Even as you see the worst aspect of what Christmas can bring, there are others who are serving as a good example of what the Christmas spirit should produce. Personally, I wouldn't cancel Christmas, but I know I also don't walk in your shoes. What I don't understand is why are you posting in Hell if things have been so much better for you since you cancelled Christmas? Are you suggesting that we should all do the same?
Posts: 1547 | Registered: May 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Why here? Because I read the Blue Christmas thread and the prayers on the prayer thread from people struggling with Christmas.
And, yes, there are alternatives. For ten of the last twelve years I've helped at church services (Crib Service, Midnight Mass) and at a midday meal for people who'd otherwise be on their own on Christmas Day.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Notably not wishing to be alone and sans Christmassy stuff - otherwise why would you be doing the meal ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Bit like my thread on phones, really. If you've had a lovely relationship with BT ever since Alexander Graham said 'hallo' down the wire, don't join me on a ranty thread about hating bastard phone companies.
Similarly, if you have a lovely cosy Christmas in a loving church and family, possibly in a snow covered village but equally on a busy city street, don't join CK in her heartfelt rant about hopeless expectations. Move on. Hey.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
And if you want sympathy, don't post in Hell
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
I love Christmas. I like midnight services on Christmas Eve. I like to spend time with my family. I like to give gifts (although I'd prefer to receive time spent together rather than gifts in return). I like all the stuff that happens at church. I'm planning to go to church on Christmas morning this year -- the first time I've done that, aside from the years Christmas falls on a Sunday.
I hate Christmas. I worked five seasons in retail selling shoes, and that was five seasons too many. I hate the greed, the sense of entitlement, and the rudeness that comes along with it. I hate to see families fighting on Christmas Day -- can they not put aside their disagreements for one damned day and be nice to each other? And if not, then why do they insist on getting together, hoping that this year will be different from all the others? Why subject themselves to that? I hate to see people spend more than they can afford to try to please some person that cannot be pleased, or to try to out-give the others in some weird power struggle. I hate to hear about people being trampled to death on the day after Thanksgiving to get some doodad or whatzit that isn't really that great of a deal and that really isn't worth dying for. Having worked five of those days, I think the whole damned thing is stupid.
I celebrate the first holiday. I refuse to take part in the second. I am extremely fortunate, and I look for ways to help those who are not. It's a crying shame, really.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Pooks
Shipmate
# 11425
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Why here? Because I read the Blue Christmas thread and the prayers on the prayer thread from people struggling with Christmas.
That could be understood in different ways, but I won't dig any further.
quote:
And, yes, there are alternatives. For ten of the last twelve years I've helped at church services (Crib Service, Midnight Mass) and at a midday meal for people who'd otherwise be on their own on Christmas Day.
I had you down as someone who would do these things in church, that's why I can't understand why you would only look at the negative side of Christmas, while completely ignoring in your OP the good that others have done for one another. Anyway, thanks for the explanation.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: May 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
This bit here says to shut about not enjoying Christmas. Which was a complete misreading of the OP, which was never about my enjoyment or lack of it, but the way the unrealistic expectations add to the challenges many people face at this time of year.
There's nothing wrong with expecting good things to happen at Christmas, and those expectations are not unrealistic. I get that for some people it doesn't happen, and that sucks, but the solution is not to say that because of those people nobody should expect good things to happen.
You may as well say that because some children are dyslexic and really struggle to learn to read and write we shouldn't expect any children to learn to read and write.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I love Christmas, but what I love about are the carols, the fire on as the wind howls, the little bit of peace from traffic, the stillness in the air (even in a city), the church services, the lights, the colours and smells; all that type of thing.
What I hate about Christmas is the expense, the expense and the expense; and fuck me is it expensive. Part of it is my job, but I totally get what CK is getting at, the expectation has gone up a hundred fold. I know there are those who would say, 'Oh but you don't have to go to such expense', but that's not really true for some people, and for those suckered into having to have everything right by the media, their credit card bill by the end of December can make the Greek debt look paltry. Maybe they are fools taken in and maybe I'm a fool for falling in line, but the weight of social expectation to 'do Christmas right' has most certainly ratcheted up to almost ridiculous proportions in the last few years. I can understand why this is the case - in a recession any business is going to go hell for leather to make you spent your last cent on their product.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
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Posted
Yes, the expense.
Before the little Molopatas came along, Mr & Ms Molopata agreed they would have a low-profile & back-to-basics celebration with no presents. But now the small ones have arrived, they have been overwhelmed by the onslaught of dotting god- & grandparents who have obliterated the noble intentions with an incessant barrage of presents.
And that's before you've factored in the expectations raised by talking to other children at school.
And of course, given the social rules of reciprocation, the Molopatas are compelled to respond in kind.
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... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
What I hate about Christmas is the expense, the expense and the expense; and fuck me is it expensive.
It doesn't have to be.
I buy my nieces lots of little presents throughout the year. Nothing my purse even notices. Then, at present wrapping time I have as much fun wrapping them as they do opening them. (No they are not kids - both are over 30!)
I am very much in the 'Blue Christmas' camp this year with Mum fading slowly but it doesn't stop me doing the usual things, I find them comforting.
At Church we do a Christmas dinner/party for those who would otherwise be alone. This includes younger people, who help. It's a good way to spend the day. Usually I give just an hour or two, having family commitments, but this year I'll be there for most of the 'do'.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I think that expectations belong in hell too, along with the new furniture which can still be delivered in time; the dreadful frozen concoctions to serve up to our loved ones; the pressure on parents to buy and provide a dream for their children however much debt it puts them into (or be accused of neglect); and the 'must get drunk' myth.
By experience, the best Christmasses have been better than I could have hoped because I have been uplifted in spirit: by smiling faces and kind words from strangers; by children and adults who were genuinely delighted by the presents they received; by people singing carols in the street or on the doorstep; by a meal saved up for, whose ingredients I could not usually afford to buy; and, now that I appreciate it, by the religious festival and all that happens in the Church.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Well, I DO enjoy Christmas. I enjoy going to church to celebrate the incarnation of our Lord. I enjoy spending time with the family. I enjoy the food & drink. I enjoy giving and receiving presents. I enjoy taking some time off work I enjoy looking back over the year and thanking God it wasn't nearly as bad as it could have been.
If you don't enjoy it, that's entirely up to you, but please stop bleating on about it.
Well said, Spike.
Because of geographical factors and our own church commitments (cathedral organists and singers don't get Christmas Day off ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ), being with family for Christmas hasn't been an option* for us for many years.
We'll spend the morning in church; the afternoon drinking GIN, opening presents, phoning family and friends back home and dozing off; and the evening eating far too much with friends here.
What's not to like?
* D's well past the stage of feeling pissed off when people ask him "are you going home for Christmas?". ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Boogie:
quote:
It doesn't have to be.
Unfortunately it does in some cases. I was referring to adults rather than children. We talk about the expectation of children a lot, but generally speaking, children might huff for a bit if they don't get what they want, whereas adults have a long and vindictive memory and in many ways I think the expectation among adults is actually much higher than among children. Among adults the social pressure is enormous; whether it be to splash out at the expensive restaurant for the Christmas work do, the keeping up with the Jonzes with the best toys the kids all asked for, the small gifts for people you barely know or even dislike, the Christmas 'nibbles' that everyone expects to be a drunken feast, and so on and so on. Fail to take heed of these expectations and you can easily end up a social pariah. I acknowledge that there are many who have never had to face these issues, and good for them, long may it continue, but for others it's nothing more than a debt laced curse.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
Maybe I'm simplistic because I have never celebrated Christmas in a big way. Not ignored it, but kept it low key. Maybe easier to do in Scotland. Within living memory, businesses were open and people, certainly men, went to work on Christmas Day with an early finish about 1pm or 2pm to get home for a festive meal. The festive meal might be a steak pie, or for the more monied a capon from the local fishmonger shop. Pudding was a clootie dumpling. That was about it.
I suggest:
Keep it low key. Don't have high expectations.Enjoy the time off work, if you can. Enjoy good company, if you can. Eat and drink in moderation. Exchange small presents with adult close relatives and friends. No more tha £5 each. Spend money on kids, but again keep it reasonable. Go to church, if that's your thing. Get out into the fresh air. Escape to the hills on Boxing Day, if you can. Try to get back to work before New Year. Don't spend money st the Sales. Know that you have enough "stuff" and believe it. Prize enjoying "time", whether with people or on your own. Being with people is overrated! Read a book, walk the dog, go swimming, play a game of tennis. Look forward to the longer days after 21 December. Spring is only 3 months away. Appreciate the simple things. Be glad to be alive and living in freedom. Be glad that we have enough to eat (or most of us do).
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
And if you want sympathy, don't post in Hell
You are typically more perspicacious, Spike.
ISTM, this is more about the effect hype has on the vulnerable. Is this not a Hell worthy topic?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Thank you lilBuddha - that's what it was meant to be about.
Francophile - I'll tell you what, you can go and talk to the Autistic Spectrum teenagers I will be seeing tomorrow and tell them that the media and the shops playing Christmas songs and the adverts on the TV and Dickens and folklore have all got it wrong, you know the best way. I can't see it going well.
And for the rest of you defending your church going practices, I have nowhere attacked the religious festival of Christmas, just the secular accretions that are all of Christmas most people see.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I'm a bit resentful towards the churches for buying into the popular hype around Christmas. We tell ourselves that 'Jesus is the reason for the season' and that Easter is more important, but I think the process of secularisation has made us desperate to hang on to one of the few popular representations of vaguely Christian spirituality that still speaks to the culture. There's something rather craven about it.
At my old church I was uneasy at how on Christmas morning children were encouraged to go to the front and wave their newly acquired Christmas presents about, as though Christianity encouraged materialism. And there's something about huge, decorated Christmas trees that increasingly disturbs me, especially the ones in churches. Today I walked past a Baptist church that has a massive one you could see lit up through the window. It seems odd for a church to make such a big deal of a symbol that's not Christian without any attempt to christianise it.
Churches want to be seen as part of the fun, and despite the odd word against materialism and debt they don't have anything to say about a 'Christian' celebration that emphasises family division and leads to stress, a peak in divorce rates, gluttony and drunkenness, and parties that increase the likelihood of infidelity and STDs.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
I find that most of the TV, media and such has no relationship to my real life, so why should Christmas be any different? I think it is important for young people to understand that there is life, and there is the media and one is not usually true. That is true about things other then Christmas, and so my princess Prince Charming is most likely not going to come and rescue you. Better plan to get an education and a job.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Most vulnerablepeople I know, and given my day job is with vulnerable people that's a lot, would be well pissed off if some sort of festive effort wasn't made around Christmas. From the autistic guy with the specially arranged trip off the ward to the wrestling to the 18yr old with the leaving care team getting an extra £50 from the social services because its Christmas.
Sure they won't have the perfect Christmas, nor the family time they would want if they could - but they still want to be part of it and a part of that is the tv schmaltz and the tinzle.
(And people who are crap at budgeting are generally crap at it all year round, likewise folk guilted into stuff are generally guilted into it at other times too - I don'y think Christmas specifically is the cause.)
[ 16. December 2013, 22:39: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I dislike Christmas. It brings back memories of family tensions.
I have no problem with those who want to celebrate with their own family but Christmas is the holiday that won't leave you alone. Thanks to Dickens, as mentioned above, you're not allowed to say "none for me thank you" and you face an endless string of presumptions that you are Christian and want to hear badly orchestrated Christmas songs from Halloween till January to encourage you to buy more.
I usually try to stay out of stores after thanksgiving except for a run to a bookstore to get a stack of books to read over the forced time off. This year I am slightly tempted to go to a social event. The film society is showing a sing along version of Fiddler on the Roof, with a free Chinese food buffet to commemorate the Jewish custom of going out for Chinese food on Christmas day. Other than that, I'll stay home and try to ignore it.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I heard recently that half of annual retail income comes from the 6 weeks before Christmas. Folks, it's your civic duty to keep the economy running by spending as much money as you can, on as much useless shit as you can lay your hands on.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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NJA
Shipmate
# 13022
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Posted
Queues everywhere with a get out of my way attitude, "Merry Christmas".
Posts: 1283 | From: near London | Registered: Sep 2007
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Francophile - I'll tell you what, you can go and talk to the Autistic Spectrum teenagers I will be seeing tomorrow and tell them that the media and the shops playing Christmas songs and the adverts on the TV and Dickens and folklore have all got it wrong, you know the best way. I can't see it going well.
Maybe because they're not wrong. The folklore, Dickens and songs are presenting an accurate picture of (part of) what Christmas should be about. That it's not like that for many people is sad, but it doesn't change the basic fact.
Honestly, is there any other situation where people try to completely change societal expectations because some people don't or can't live up to them? Do we stop expecting that people should be healthy because some are ill? Do we stop expecting that people should have the right to vote because some live in dictatorships? Do we stop expecting that people should be free from abuse because some are being abused? No, of course we bloody don't - the very idea is idiotic. Why then should we stop expecting that people should have a happy and celebratory Christmas with the ones they love just because some people don't have that?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Churches want to be seen as part of the fun, and despite the odd word against materialism and debt they don't have anything to say about a 'Christian' celebration that emphasises family division and leads to stress, a peak in divorce rates, gluttony and drunkenness, and parties that increase the likelihood of infidelity and STDs.
Maybe because Christmas doesn't emphasise those things.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
(And people who are crap at budgeting are generally crap at it all year round, likewise folk guilted into stuff are generally guilted into it at other times too - I don'y think Christmas specifically is the cause.)
My experience - in dealing with current accounts and mortgage arrears - is that January was always the worst month for both. Too many people spent too much at Christmas and spent the year paying until next Christmas and then .....
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Marvin: quote:
Honestly, is there any other situation where people try to completely change societal expectations because some people don't or can't live up to them?
You must have missed the annual thread bitching about Mother's Day...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Churches want to be seen as part of the fun, and despite the odd word against materialism and debt they don't have anything to say about a 'Christian' celebration that emphasises family division and leads to stress, a peak in divorce rates, gluttony and drunkenness, and parties that increase the likelihood of infidelity and STDs.
Maybe because Christmas doesn't emphasise those things.
Not in theological terms, no. But most people celebrate Christmas as a primarily secular festival.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Not in theological terms, no. But most people celebrate Christmas as a primarily secular festival.
Even so, the things you mention aren't emphasised as part of it. Well, except for eating and drinking, which are perfectly good things.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
So why single out Christmas? This is all behaviour frequently displayed by some people in certain holiday resorts in the summer. Does that make summer holidays an intrinsically bad thing?
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
It's the church that singles out Christmas, not me!
I think it would be best for the church not to seem so eager to buy into a festival that's now so clearly a secular occasion in most people's minds. We've reached the point where the religious element is a bolt-on. Maybe it was always so in popular culture, but it's definitely the case now.
I don't know if there's much point in the church so obviously competing in a competition that it's unlikely to win.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
So what, if the religious aspects of a festival get taken over by secular festivities the religion should just abandon it? I think not.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The way we celebrate Christmas now is a fairly recent invention, of course. Thanks to Alistair McGrath's 'Christianity: An Introduction' on Googlebooks I note that the 1662 Prayer Book had no provision for Christmas as a special celebration. Christmas was institutionalised as a national festival in the 19th c. The nine lessons and carols service is late Victorian and acquired its current format in 1918.
In other words, the idea that Christmas has to be celebrated with great fanfare by the churches is hardly carved in stone. The times dictate everything. But I concede that my reading of the times will differ from other people's.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Svitlana: quote:
We've reached the point where the religious element is a bolt-on.
Maybe in your church. In mine we will be celebrating the Incarnation of Our Lord as usual, thanks very much all the same.
I don't see 'the religious element' as a bolt-on at all. And I don't see what everyone else does has to do with it either. Should we give up celebrating Easter as well, to avoid confusion with chocolate eggs and the Easter bunny?
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
Among adults the social pressure is enormous; whether it be to splash out at the expensive restaurant for the Christmas work do, the keeping up with the Jonzes with the best toys the kids all asked for, the small gifts for people you barely know or even dislike, the Christmas 'nibbles' that everyone expects to be a drunken feast, and so on and so on.
Mr Christian, do I remember you as living in the Republic of Ireland?
My Irish inlaws do a bit of this, all year round. When I take the piss out of them for overdoing hospitality (and, 15 years in, I'm still stupid enough to try to crack those jokes) they look at me like I'm making jokes about wanking over the Christmas pudding. There really does seem to be something very deep and not-to-be-mocked there about laying it all on for guests, taking stuff with you when you're a guest...the shame around not joining in and buying your (huge, huger than huge fuck-off) round still surprises me.
I get partly out of it by being the family tight-English-cunt, and partly out of it by being the family religiously-a-bit-too-enthusiastic-prod. I can see how a lack of such solid excuses could make abstinence a bit tricky.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Svitlana: quote:
We've reached the point where the religious element is a bolt-on.
Maybe in your church. In mine we will be celebrating the Incarnation of Our Lord as usual, thanks very much all the same.
FWIW, it would be interesting to know how your church celebrated Christmas, say, 300 years ago. It was probably a bit different.
On Christmas day does your church invite the kids to tell everyone about their Christmas presents?I'd be very happy to know that that only happened at my old church!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Svitlana: quote:
We've reached the point where the religious element is a bolt-on.
Maybe in your church. In mine we will be celebrating the Incarnation of Our Lord as usual, thanks very much all the same.
FWIW, it would be interesting to know how your church celebrated Christmas, say, 300 years ago. It was probably a bit different.
On Christmas day does your church invite the kids to tell everyone about their Christmas presents?I'd be very happy to know that that only happened at my old church!
Sorry to report that your church is not alone in that Svitlana. I put it down to the Idolisation of Family and Idolisation of Children which churchianity engages in. Keep the kids and mums and dads happy, and hey presto you have a Church! Why not just hand out tickets to the current Disney film st the local multiplex and save money on heating the church building.
[ 17. December 2013, 17:36: Message edited by: Francophile ]
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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Kitten
Shipmate
# 1179
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Posted
All the Churches I have attended have done this, I'm sure they disapproved of my family for not participating but, as I explained each year, we do not open our presents until the afternoon
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Maius intra qua extra
Never accept a ride from a stranger, unless they are in a big blue box
Posts: 2330 | From: Carmarthenshire | Registered: Aug 2001
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
... There really does seem to be something very deep and not-to-be-mocked there about laying it all on for guests, taking stuff with you when you're a guest ...
That would explain the similar practice that we've found here in Newfoundland, where there is a lot of Irish influence. If you're asked to someone's house for supper, you'd say "what would you like me to bring?", and although the host/hostess might say, "just bring yourselves", you'll probably bring something anyway ...
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I dislike Christmas. It brings back memories of family tensions.
I have no problem with those who want to celebrate with their own family but Christmas is the holiday that won't leave you alone. Thanks to Dickens, as mentioned above, you're not allowed to say "none for me thank you" and you face an endless string of presumptions that you are Christian and want to hear badly orchestrated Christmas songs from Halloween till January to encourage you to buy more.
I usually try to stay out of stores after thanksgiving except for a run to a bookstore to get a stack of books to read over the forced time off. This year I am slightly tempted to go to a social event. The film society is showing a sing along version of Fiddler on the Roof, with a free Chinese food buffet to commemorate the Jewish custom of going out for Chinese food on Christmas day. Other than that, I'll stay home and try to ignore it.
Which means you don't create any new memories to replace them, and given Christmas will happen every year for the rest of your life - how does this strategy help you ?
Just like phobias - avoidance just creates a viscious cycle.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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