Thread: Secret Of The Universe Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Frank Mitchell (# 17946) on
:
Awhile ago I discovered the Secret Of The Universe. Admittedly it's been discovered at least twice before, but people decided they weren't interested and forgot what it was. Simply, to paraphrase Galileo: "The Book Of Nature is written in the Language Of Mathematics." Hey, it worked for Newton, Maxwell, Einstein...
Originally it was thought of by Pythagoras around 500 BC. This meant Galileo had a problem: In his time he seemed to be saying the Physical Universe was controlled by abstract Mathematical Ideas, and this was regarded as a form of Magic. People like Francis Bacon and Isaac Newton actually believed they themselves were practising a form of Magic.
Nowadays a more likely view is that Mathematics is a form of Logic, so the Physical Universe must follow some kind of mathematical pattern, because it can't do much else.
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on
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You do know it's very gauche to post while drunk, don't you?
Posted by Frank Mitchell (# 17946) on
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I'm a Karate Expert, and I used to be a member of Mensa. So I don't care what you say.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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42
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on
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Frank Mitchell
I'm not quite sure what you are trying to achieve here with this thread.
As regards the OP are you suggesting that all aspects of the universe can be expressed in terms of mathematics and are you asking us to debate this?
As regards your second post are you spoiling for a fight or are you perhaps unaware of how you are coming across?
Either way, I'm not sure hell is going to be good for you.....(says she running away quickly!)
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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He has been asked to be more definitive in his OPs, but does not seem to agree. He is either experimenting to determine how to do what he wants or taking the piss.
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on
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![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
Good luck, Frank. You're going to need it. Karate skills and Mensa qualifications don't do anyone a lot of good here. Low cunning, a thick skin and a general ability to ignore WTFAYO scorn are probably more use. This is a place of heat, not light. Deliberately. You might learn some skills in how to survive here. But not a hell of a lot else. Trust me.
[ 11. January 2014, 16:27: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
Frank, it's a few months since we had a truly weird poster on board and I'm afraid I have to tell you that you don't have any of the charm that particular Shipmate had (tho' she could be a right PITA).
Anyway, if you want to post in Hell I can't stop you (it's an open house), but do take notice of the guidelines for it, because posting here invites offensive replies and as far as I can tell "LOSER" is tattooed in big letters across your forehead. That's just a warning, in Christian love you understand.
With the benefit of my experience (not that of being a Host, 'cos that has no perceptible benefit) the possible outcomes are:
Lots of offensive replies: your cravings for attention have been satisfied.
Few if any offensive replies: your status as a boring bastard has been truly rumbled.
[edit: grammer]
[ 11. January 2014, 16:59: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Frank, it's a few months since we had a truly weird poster on board and I'm afraid I have to tell you that you don't have any of the charm that particular Shipmate had (tho' she could be a right PITA).
Ah, they have to come from Northern California to exude that charm...it's in the terrior. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
What the Hell is the terrior. Is that an iPad 'improvement' on the original or something?
[my iPad corrects it to 'terroir'. Now that's weird. Is it a message about the secret of the universe? i before o except after double r? Neat).
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
I used to be a member of Mensa.
I'm not surprised they rescinded your membership.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Frank, it's a few months since we had a truly weird poster on board and I'm afraid I have to tell you that you don't have any of the charm that particular Shipmate had (tho' she could be a right PITA).
WHAT?! Had a truly weird poster? You are relegating Me to NORMAL?!
How dare you impugn my character so! If you do not apologise I shall be forced to extreme measures.
You have until dawn. If, by then, there has been no retraction of this heinous slur, I shall tilt your bowler hat askew!
Fair warning has been given.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
I'm a Karate Expert,
Reminds me of that after-shave called hi-karate . Alleged to be a fragrance so irresistible to females that you needed to be a Karate expert to fight off their attentions.
Ahh the 70s , I miss them so .
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
What the Hell is the terrior. Is that an iPad 'improvement' on the original or something?
[my iPad corrects it to 'terroir'. Now that's weird. Is it a message about the secret of the universe? i before o except after double r? Neat).
No, no. She means terrier. Even the dogs are weird there.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Frank, it's a few months since we had a truly weird poster on board and I'm afraid I have to tell you that you don't have any of the charm that particular Shipmate had (tho' she could be a right PITA).
WHAT?! Had a truly weird poster? You are relegating Me to NORMAL?!
How dare you impugn my character so! If you do not apologise I shall be forced to extreme measures.
You have until dawn. If, by then, there has been no retraction of this heinous slur, I shall tilt your bowler hat askew!
Fair warning has been given.
lB, my apologies, I meant a new weird poster. We have any number of eccentrics and oddballs, some of whom are members of the Crew. We haven't many recent ones with redeeming features though.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
OMG. My iPad is right! Terroir is a genuine word and what is more, the right one!
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Even the dogs are weird there.
1. Insulting.
2. True.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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What the ever lovin' fuck?
Sioni, did you leave the freak door unlocked again? We talked about this!
It is entirely too early for this. The secret to the universe is simple: if someone gets me good coffee immediately, I won't destroy it.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
OMG. My iPad is right! Terroir is a genuine word and what is more, the right one!
..and life goes on in typical fashion. It will be a freezing cold day-- here before anyone thinks to put one of the many, many brilliant things I say in the Quotes File, but make one typo or run one stats rebuild unannounced and I Am Legend.
Seriously, if I ever get hit by a bus, y'all will be scrambling to share memories,and all you'll come up with is," Remember the time we all gang-banged her over that misplaced i?"
You think YOU got it bad, Frank...
Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
I used to be a member of Mensa.
A great demonstration of how intelligence and common sense don't always go together
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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picks imaginary speck off Sioni's bowler, checks its alignment
Spoken like a gentleman. Many thanks, kind sir.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
What the ever lovin' fuck?
Sioni, did you leave the freak door unlocked again? We talked about this!
If the SOF freak door is left unlocked, it would result in a net loss of posters. The host lounge would be empty.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
42
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Is that your answer to everything?
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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quote:
Kelly Alves: Is that your answer to everything?
And life. And the Universe.
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
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We're ALL clever here. Even me at the wee-wee end of the pool. The trick is to be kind and encouraging. Ha!
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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Yep - and I'm wearing my dressing gown ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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HEY, GUYS! YOU SEE THAT??? HE GOT THE JOKE!!!
(sorry, that was to LeRoc.)
[ 11. January 2014, 17:53: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Pooks (# 11425) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
Awhile ago I discovered the Secret Of The Universe. Admittedly it's been discovered at least twice before, but people decided they weren't interested and forgot what it was. Simply, to paraphrase Galileo: "The Book Of Nature is written in the Language Of Mathematics." Hey, it worked for Newton, Maxwell, Einstein...
Originally it was thought of by Pythagoras around 500 BC. This meant Galileo had a problem: In his time he seemed to be saying the Physical Universe was controlled by abstract Mathematical Ideas, and this was regarded as a form of Magic. People like Francis Bacon and Isaac Newton actually believed they themselves were practising a form of Magic.
Nowadays a more likely view is that Mathematics is a form of Logic, so the Physical Universe must follow some kind of mathematical pattern, because it can't do much else.
Since you are taking this view down to Hell, I assume you hold a different theory?
Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
I'm a Karate Expert, and I used to be a member of Mensa. So I don't care what you say.
I bet you are 14, can't hit the floor when you drop a hat and have trouble because your smart phone is smarter than you.
Posted by Frank Mitchell (# 17946) on
:
Actually Mensa didn't rescind my membership. I got disillusioned with them because they wouldn't support my Secret Society Dedicated To All Kinds Of Perversion.
Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on
:
Not sure if that's a joke or true, also not sure which is more scary
Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on
:
(Web crash)
The fact he has a society or that he's making a joke
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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Oh, bother. It is supposed to be more fun when the toys interact, but I'm not sure this one can keep up. Don't get your hopes up, Chocoholic.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
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For your amusement and amazement, I will now proceed to dismember your stupid little claim to a thesis:
Being transcends any description we might formulate of its nature. There are always aspects that will elude the limited capacity of our language, certain things that our finite intellects will never understand, that, try as we might to approximate it by language, mathematics, drawings, etc., we will never actually capture the thing itself. Reality is infinite in its complexity; our language and intellect, finite. As Pascal, Wittgenstein, Kuhn, Locke, Kant, etc. realized, there are, to put it bluntly, very important truths about the universe—yes, scientific truths—that can never be adequately expressed through any description, even (or especially!) mathematical ones. A photograph of a thing does not capture all the nature of the thing itself.
And just so you know, any public domain freely available translations of any of these philosophers are going to be absolute shit, except, perhaps, for Locke—there have been new critical editions and important scholarship about all of them in the last 50 years, so if it's available for free on the Internet, it's not worth a pail of piss in an argument.
Any questions before you try to change the subject on to some tangent you hope the rest of us don't know as much about so you can try to save face? Not that I'd recommend that, of course; you may have gathered that I'm not the only person around here with multiple degrees in philosophy, or history, or theology, or physics, or pretty much anything else you might try to argue. Hell, if I hadn't had the dumb luck to notice that City of God thread you tried to derail into Plato, and then into that weird Zoroastrianism thesis that was getting demolished on its own thread, I'm sure IngoB would have stopped by to give you a truly right and proper Augustine lesson. Frankly, I'm a little sorry he didn't, if only to point out things I'd missed. Of course, if he hadn't done it, I can name a half dozen people, some of whom are regulars in Eccles, Kyrig, and DH, who also could have done it.
The fact is, simply asserting things without serious support to your argument ain't gonna fly here. I felt bad when you had to be standing in front of the "there are several legitimate scholars of the history of philosophy on this board" wrecking ball a few times in your first week here, but, after you got smacked by it a few times, we'd have thought you'd have learned.
So learn from your fuckups, schmott guy.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
And, now that I think about it some more, an addendum, especially about "learning:"
Yes, there are people with more degrees than grains of sands on the beach here. There are people who got thrown out of school for being too hard to work with. There are also people who never finished school, or who did, but didn't care. You know what? They all have valuable things to say, because they know what it is they know, and are aware of what its value is.
Just as an example, I'm not going to ask Kelly about editions of Aquinas's De Potentia, about which version I should use for which question, and when I should use an English translation because the translator was given access to an approved but unpublished critical edition of the Latin text. Okay, I might, just because her answer telling me to get over myself would be worth it, but that's beside the point. However, I would want to know whether she thought Aquinas was justified in making some of his statements, or what she thought of Thomas's concept of God.
So maybe that's what I'm getting at here: you don't have to be a know-it-all to discuss a topic. I mean, it's nice to have one handy to clarify technical points, but you don't have to be one. What you do need is to know what you're talking about, to pull your head out of your ass and get over yourself (seriously, don't go recommending public domain editions of Plato or Augustine or whomever when someone's questioned your textual scholarship), to engage honestly, and, above all, realize what it is about your own experience that gives you an insight into the topic at hand. Don't try to be the guru speaking from on high; it never ends well.
Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
I'm a Karate Expert, and I used to be a member of Mensa. So I don't care what you say.
Ah, the Dunning-Kruger Effect strikes again.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
OMG. My iPad is right! Terroir is a genuine word and what is more, the right one!
..and life goes on in typical fashion. It will be a freezing cold day-- here before anyone thinks to put one of the many, many brilliant things I say in the Quotes File, but make one typo or run one stats rebuild unannounced and I Am Legend.
Seriously, if I ever get hit by a bus, y'all will be scrambling to share memories,and all you'll come up with is," Remember the time we all gang-banged her over that misplaced i?"
You think YOU got it bad, Frank...
West Coast self-pity always comes out the same. Chill, Kelly. I learned a new word today that wasn't an anagram of chihuahua. (And my iPad completed the spelling of that for me. Ain't technology wonderful.)
Thanks Frank, this is going real well.
[ 11. January 2014, 19:34: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posted by Scarlet (# 1738) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
Actually Mensa didn't rescind my membership. I got disillusioned with them because they wouldn't support my Secret Society Dedicated To All Kinds Of Perversion.
If you were too perverted for Mensa, you must really be a tin-foiled freak!
...I speak as a member, of course. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by passer (# 13329) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
I'm a Karate Expert, and I used to be a member of Mensa. So I don't care what you say.
Ah, the Dunning-Kruger Effect strikes again.
For some reason I read that as the Kadir-Buxton method. Some sort of vaguely hononymic/word association aberration in my head related to genius-nutters who bash people. I think I must be tired.
▲
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
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Ooh, Mr. Kadir-Buxton would be an awesome Shipmate.
But this one will do for now.
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
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Homonymic Jack.
[ 11. January 2014, 21:19: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
I'm a Karate Expert, and I used to be a member of Mensa. So I don't care what you say.
I bet you are 14, can't hit the floor when you drop a hat and have trouble because your smart phone is smarter than you.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Memo to Barnabas-- no thanks, you can keep your weather.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Memo to Barnabas-- no thanks, you can keep your weather.
Nice! Most attractive thing about California would be leaving that behind. Plus the baseball of course. And the 49ers. And the surfing. And ... and
Too old, Kelly. Don't much like chihuahuas either. Or terriers.
[See! i comes before e and after the double r. But it comes after o which comes after the double r. Simples .. Just practising an unlikely funeral address is all]
[ 11. January 2014, 22:24: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
I'm a Karate Expert, and I used to be a member of Mensa. So I don't care what you say.
In the game of Hell, you're pretty lucky so far. Getting off lightly with the odd accurate denigration thrown in for balance.
But here is a good lesson for visits to Hell
Do.Not,Paint.A.Bullseye.On.Your.Ass.
One is bad enough; two is just plain silly.
Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on
:
Oh dear.
Posted by Frank Mitchell (# 17946) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Being transcends any description we might formulate of its nature. There are always aspects that will elude the limited capacity of our language, certain things that our finite intellects will never understand, that, try as we might to approximate it by language, mathematics, drawings, etc., we will never actually capture the thing itself. Woffle woffle woffle...
You're just envious because I'm not as tedious as you.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Being transcends any description we might formulate of its nature. There are always aspects that will elude the limited capacity of our language, certain things that our finite intellects will never understand, that, try as we might to approximate it by language, mathematics, drawings, etc., we will never actually capture the thing itself. Woffle woffle woffle...
You're just envious because I'm not as tedious as you.
au contraire.
you're far more tedious even than Ariston.
you're being a complete waste of all of our time and energy. Why are you here? What is your point?
It's like you're a 3 year old who walked into a houseful of grown-ups having cocktails, screaming that it's fingerpainting time.
you're lost, you're outgunned, and you obviously escaped your legal handlers.
Now, get with the program and read up on the Ship - why we're here, what we talk about, and what each board is for - and then step the fuck up. Or, go find where all the other 3-year-olds are fingerpainting.
Your noise is putting me off my scotch.
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
:
Frank, what do you consider to be the secret of the universe? For me, I would argue that it is that all of creation is in relationship. Not that that is a particularly secret secret. (I quite like that last sentence).
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
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Further to add, mathematics is just one of many ways to describe the interconnectedness of all of creation.
None of which are a complete answer.
Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
You're just envious because I'm not as tedious as you.
Frank, my dear, we don't give a damn, and your Iron Knee Gauge is kaput.
Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on
:
Pah.
None of you are even close to the secret of the Universe.
The secret to the Universe is graham crackers at bedtime.
There. I've let it out and it is no longer a secret. Now, everyone can eat graham crackers right before bed, get a good night's sleep and wake up fresh and productive in the morning.
No autographs please.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
You're just envious because I'm not as tedious as you.
Which goes to show that you "are at the same time not clever enough to understand short explanations and disinclined to read long ones" while we "toil at teaching, vainly devising short lessons for the lazy and long ones for the dull."
That's Augustine, by the way. Letter 162, if you want to look it up.
So "proceed on your merry way of invention, but remember you are giving fiction," not Augustine, or Plato, or Plotinus, or Zoroaster, or Protagorus, or whoever the fuck else you're misattributing your own hacked-together bad ideas to. Oh, that's Against Julian, III.19.36. You see, those of us used to discussing things cite our sources, rather than telling people to look for it ourselves when challenged. Most of the time, that's because we actually have evidence to back it up, rather than trying to conceal the fact that we're talking out of our asses when someone calls us on it.
Given how many times people here have handed you your fucking ass on a silver platter, do us a favor and pull your head out of it. We see through your attempts to change the subject when challenged, to not provide citations when called on the carpet, and to suggest that we don't agree with you because you're using a better translation, which the rest of us have enough good sense to see was outdated 50 years ago. Don't call me tedious just because I know my shit and you're making it up.
Look here, asswipe. None of us are going to tell you how clever you are, and if you think we aren't going to see through your bullshit artistry, then "you are mistaken, wretchedly mistaken, if not also detestably mistaken." (Op. cit., VI.26.83) Asking questions is one thing—I've had many of my own answered—but that means swallowing your pride and admitting that you don't know. Trying to act like you do is a good way to get yourself ripped a new one. You should work out your posting with fear and trembling, knowing full well that there's at least one person who can call you on any error you make.
So, quite frankly, we don't fucking care what you think you can do or what smart person honors you want us to believe you have. When you've proved yourself a right idiot, all we hear is the sound of overcompensation.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Throw him some Borges, man!
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
I just nabbed this comment from the closed Heaven thread: quote:
Frankie say:
I happen to know the Secret Of The Universe, and I just I tried telling the folks in Hell. Alas they don't have half a brain between them, and I didn't learn much.
putting aside our collective mental prowess for a moment...
these two sentences show the problem you have with opening threads. first, quote:
I happen to know the Secret Of The Universe, and I just I tried telling the folks in Hell.
a statement that you already know something. not a point of discussion, but an assertion. a baldly ludicrous assertion - a blassertion, if you will - but an assertion. no real grounds for discussion. no questions, no food for thought.
essentially, a bog standard gloat. That's cool. this is Hell, we do gloating.
but then, the second sentence:
quote:
I didn't learn much.
nowhere in there did you ask a question, request an explanation, or solicit opinions. you gloated. and then you expected to learn something.
Sunshine, what the fuck do you expect to learn from gloating?
I could easily start a thread here in hell saying, "I'm the smartest fucker on this here ship, and I know it because the alien lint-eating squirrels told me so!" and the only responses that solicits are the expected scoffing because the alien squirrels obviously only eat waffles. there's no grounds for discussion, there's no basis for dialog.
where in there is there scope for you learning something?
unless, of course, your goal is to learn exactly how delusional you appear in other people's eyes.
And if that's the case, go, you! You batshit crazy little freak of nature, you! you really showed us!
opening a topic for discussion isn't really all that hard to grasp. seriously. We have some amazingly ignorant dumbasses who've been managing it around here for years.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
We have some amazingly ignorant dumbasses who've been managing it around here for years.
1. Insulting
2. True.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Throw him some Borges, man!
Oh fuck no. The only thing that could possibly make this any weirder would be some "Tlön, Uqbar, Orbus Tertius" and "New Refutation of Time." We're keeping the reason I don't do acid—Borges is trippier—out of this.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
The Secret of the Universe is that God provided us with psychoactive substances to consume before having to deal with some of our peers.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
Phpphhhh! Psychoactive substances are for amateurs. I can whip up a full head of psychedelic swirling, twisted hallucinogenic steam with nary a trace of assist.
Such low standard for hosts these days. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
Whatever. Meanwhile I'm just going to put some Tia Maria in my coffee and enjoy myself.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Phpphhhh! Psychoactive substances are for amateurs. I can whip up a full head of psychedelic swirling, twisted hallucinogenic steam with nary a trace of assist.
Such low standard for hosts these days.
Swirling, whirling? Sufi meets Gautama? Just askin in my Hostly ignorance?
I'll get my coat ...
[Even more seriously, I did like pissy's secret secret. Little gem, that was, lilbuddha. Just right for the terroir.]
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Whatever. Meanwhile I'm just going to put some Tia Maria in my coffee and enjoy myself.
Please remember to close the curtains first.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
Thank you for that gross imagery, I don't think.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
You're just envious because I'm not as tedious as you.
You have to respect his opinion, Ariston. He wrote the book on tedium. He has a mantelpiece of silverware for competitive tediousness. Box files of correspondence from the grateful - 'the memory of your conversation is, as I write, reconciling me to the grave'. Doctorates in mind numbing. A gold medal from the Society for Promoting Narcolepsy. I daresay there's a Ancient Greek shrine somewhere to Thanatos, Morpheus and Frank Mitchell.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
So, quite frankly, we don't fucking care what you think you can do or what smart person honors you want us to believe you have.
Darn I was gonna do the name joke . I wonder if he's come up with his name through watching too many episodes of Eastenders .
Posted by St. Stephen the Stoned (# 9841) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
So, quite frankly, we don't fucking care what you think you can do or what smart person honors you want us to believe you have.
Darn I was gonna do the name joke . I wonder if he's come up with his name through watching too many episodes of Eastenders .
Or maybe he and the writers of Eastenders had the same person in mind.
Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on
:
Or at least the same tediousness.
Posted by deano (# 12063) on
:
Fuckwit's from Cheshire. What do you expect from him?
If he'd have any kind of sense or indeed taste, he would have left long ago.
Hee.
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
42
No. No. No
That is the secret of Life, the Universe and everything. Seeing as we are only concerned with one of these three topics, and that the universe is constrained by the laws of mathematics, your reply should have been 14.
Posted by Scarlet (# 1738) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Pah.
None of you are even close to the secret of the Universe.
The secret to the Universe is graham crackers at bedtime.
There. I've let it out and it is no longer a secret. Now, everyone can eat graham crackers right before bed, get a good night's sleep and wake up fresh and productive in the morning.
No autographs please.
Graham crackers give me indigestion. I would not have a good night.
It is a pitiful secret of the universe to find one's self too old to eat a child's bedtime snack. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
balaam
Nope. Still 42. Three in One and One in Three trumps trivial arithmetic. This is Great Mystery. ITTWACW. Sheesh.
Also in tribute to the late, great Douglas Adams, I prefer God's Final Message to His Creation
'We apologize for the inconvenience'.
Cross out "We" and insert "I". Now you have a post prepared in advance specially for Frank Mitchell on this occasion. One of the little secrets of the universe, just waiting to be uncovered.
Do that, Frank, then all this bullshit will be soon be over. As long as you aren't just buggering about, that is. Simples. You won't get a meerkat toy, but you can't expect everything.
[ 12. January 2014, 12:40: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell
I'm a Karate Expert, and I used to be a member of Mensa.
*yawn*
ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz............
Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on
:
Isn't the answer hidden in a mediaeval monastery somewhere? And you have to find it before the monks burn it down, or you get converted to the Albigensian heresy? Or is that the new computer game Simon is launching this Easter?
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
You be careful, EE - or he'll come round your house and smash a brick over his head.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
Robert Armin: Isn't the answer hidden in a mediaeval monastery somewhere?
Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out.
Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on
:
Sorry Scarlet,
I was snarfing down some graham crackers at the time as a part of getting ready for bed. A moderate amount of carbs right before bedtime helps some people get to sleep. Or, so some apparently scientific studies say.
The secret to the Universe is that there is no secret. It's all right there. We have been given brains by God to be able to figure out how the Universe works and some of us (not me) are diligently trying to figure out just exactly that.
We are missing big chunks of knowledge. Like, what the heck is going to unify quantum physics and where my socks go when I wash them.
Hmmm. I seem to have forgot where I was going. At least I know where I am.
As I say, there is no secret and anyone who tells you there is a secret is simply selling you a load of snake oil.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
As I say, there is no secret and anyone who tells you there is a secret is simply selling you a load of snake oil.
Quite so Tortuf .
Without any religious or philosophical perspective there is indeed no secret at all .
We inhabit a miniscule grain of rock somewhere in a Cosmos too vast for us to even comprehend .
Furthermore, as far as we now understand it, there isn't anyone else out there , we are alone . When circumstances conspire to snuff out Earth and all it contains that's it .... nothing . No one will care or even know that we ever existed
Posted by Frank Mitchell (# 17946) on
:
Actually I posted the Secret Of The Universe here because I'd already concluded some people just don't get it, and I was wondering why. Like the Physics Teacher who thought studying Electro-Magnetism wasn't much use. That's despite living in a world full of electric motors and radio communications. He left one additional clue for this mental abnormality: He thought sexual intercourse was superfluous, and in the World Of The Future eveybody would happily reproduce by Artifical Insemination instead. Do any of you people feel likewise?
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
:
Did someone take a piss in tbe wee-wee end of the lake of fire? Where's the smoke? Or is Frank honking a doobie?
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
I take it Frank is giving us disguised autobiography.
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
:
Why are you asking Frank? Did you go to church today?
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
Actually I posted the Secret Of The Universe here because I'd already concluded some people just don't get it, and I was wondering why. Like the Physics Teacher who thought studying Electro-Magnetism wasn't much use. That's despite living in a world full of electric motors and radio communications. He left one additional clue for this mental abnormality: He thought sexual intercourse was superfluous, and in the World Of The Future eveybody would happily reproduce by Artifical Insemination instead. Do any of you people feel likewise?
Hostly Bowler On
Frank Mitchell,
Despite friendly advice mostly in the Styx thread you started and an Admin warning on a duplicate thread to this in Heaven you are still posting well beyond the Ship's 10 Commandments and the various board guidelines.
I have therefore referred this to the Admins.
Hostly Bowler Off
Sioni Sais
Hellhost
Posted by passer (# 13329) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Did someone take a piss in tbe wee-wee end of the lake of fire? Where's the smoke? Or is Frank honking a doobie?
It's nothing, np - just that tangent which Ariston predicted yesterday.
▲
Posted by The Rhythm Methodist (# 17064) on
:
In the good old days, that embarrassing, dysfunctional family member would never even be mentioned...just tethered by a chain in the basement, and fed through a small aperture in the iron-bound door. These days, they even have access to keyboards and the web. Whatever happened to preventative detention?
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
Whatever happened to Proper Use of Capitalization?
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Whatever happened to Proper Use of Capitalization?
It eloped with the definite article.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
That's okay then, presumably they'll not be using Artificial Insemination.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
I suppose Frank could either be slightly German, or nodding in the direction of older writers - 'We had at that Tyme a Physics Teacher mightily ignorant of the feveral ufes of Elecktrical Machines and moreover greatly oppofed to Copulation ...'
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Isn't the answer hidden in a mediaeval monastery somewhere? And you have to find it before the monks burn it down, or you get converted to the Albigensian heresy? Or is that the new computer game Simon is launching this Easter?
That was one of the first ever computer games I played - "Abbey", where you had to type in your responses. At around Level 3 the game suddenly altered and the abbey was full of sinister lunatics and weird, evil places. Or was that The Hobbit? Similar style of game; memorable for Gandalf continually climbing in and out of the window without saying anything.
Anyway, the Secret of The Universe is all enshrined in the Pyramids. Once you've worked out which one, the rest should be quite easy.
Posted by Frank Mitchell (# 17946) on
:
Refer me to the Admins? The Physics Teacher story is literally true. And many people would regard the Galileo quote (or paraphrase) as General Knowledge, and quite conventional. And if the people in Hell wanted me to credit them with any brains, why did they carry on as they did? Why am I supposed to be so much worse? I've read the 10 Commandments and the Guidelines, and everybody is free to disagree with me. Am I getting inside their heads on some subliminal level?
Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on
:
In answer to your last question: No.
You start getting into trouble when you overestimate yourself.
Just some friendly advice.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
I've read the 10 Commandments and the Guidelines,
Informally you understand, but you aren't simply just required to read them. As it says on the tin, they command and guide.
All of us.
Posted by Frank Mitchell (# 17946) on
:
Obviously I'm supposed to have Paranormal Powers so I can see Hidden Meanings in the Commandments and Guidelines. Actually a Professor of Psychiatry once said I had a Paranoid Personality, but the Hidden Meanings still elude me.
Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on
:
Seriously Frank,
I don't know what you are trying to do/prove. You seem to enjoy posting here. If you want to continue to enjoy posting here host baiting is not a good idea.
Assuming, that is, you are not a troll.
Why don't you give your fellow posters some credit for intelligence that might even equal your own and participate instead of contrasting.
Posted by Frank Mitchell (# 17946) on
:
Sounds like some people around here have an Inferiority Complex. Anybody with a reasonable level of fitness can learn Karate: You just need to put up with alot of tedious practice throwing kicks and punches in mid-air, and be very careful not to hurt anybody. Judo is actually alot more dangerous. Likewise I'm sure a large proportion of SOF Posters could get into Mensa. The IQ Test is a statistical measure of a certain type of aptitude. Take the population of your town and divide by fifty, then you'll see why Mensa is not as exclusive as they pretend. And you soon realize there are talents which that aptitude doesn't cover.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
Actually I posted the Secret Of The Universe here because I'd already concluded some people just don't get it, and I was wondering why.
1. Then bloody well ask a question like 'why don't you get it'?
2. Also, pouring Eau de Arrogance all over yourself does not, in fact, make you smell any nicer.
Posted by Frank Mitchell (# 17946) on
:
Okay, why don't you get it that Galileo had an insight into the Secret Of The Universe? There was nothing stopping you from stating your position before. And why am I being described as arrogant? I said the idea came from Galileo, and Pythagoras before that. Though while we're in Hell, I should mention that the Greek word "Daimon" is equivalent to the Latin word "Genius".
I don't understand you lot. I've given you the Meaning Of Life, the Solution Of The Mind-Body Problem, and now the Secret Of The Universe, but all you do is moan. You could at least say "Thankyou".
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
And why am I being described as arrogant?
Because you said that you discovered the secret of the universe. Not that you read a book somewhere about Galileo.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
Oh, I discover the Secret of the Universe all the time. There's really nothing to it.
Now, if I could just remember where my keys are...
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
I've given you the Meaning Of Life, the Solution Of The Mind-Body Problem, and now the Secret Of The Universe, but all you do is moan. You could at least say "Thankyou".
You're a delusional freak who doesn't even understand the basic rationale behind these boards. They're for discussion. If all you want to do is tell us the answers then you've come to the wrong place, and should probably fuck off to somewhere that gives a shit about anything you have to say. If such a place even exists.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
Obviously I'm supposed to have Paranormal Powers so I can see Hidden Meanings in the Commandments and Guidelines.
There are no hidden messages in the Commandments and Guidelines. If anything is unclear, just ask in the Styx and we'll try our best to clarify things.
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
:
Studying theology taught me that you shouldn't expect all the answers, but rather, there are some questions not worth asking.
Frankly Frank, you are not convincing me otherwise.
Eta - this in response to Frank and not the subsequent host/admin posts.
[ 12. January 2014, 22:24: Message edited by: Patdys ]
Posted by Frank Mitchell (# 17946) on
:
I'm now more convinced than ever that half the people in the World are below average intelligence.
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Hell, if I hadn't had the dumb luck to notice that City of God thread you tried to derail into Plato, and then into that weird Zoroastrianism thesis that was getting demolished on its own thread, I'm sure IngoB would have stopped by to give you a truly right and proper Augustine lesson.
Thanks, Ariston, but I'm pretty damn sure that you know Augustine a lot better than I do. I'm more a hobby Thomist, and even that less by study than by congeniality.
Since we are having such a learned discussion, is Frank Mitchell a Ringlefinch, a Tusseladd, a Jotne, a Mountain King, a Harding, or a Dovregubben? Argued opinions, please.
Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
Likewise I'm sure a large proportion of SOF Posters could get into Mensa.
A number of SOF posters already are in Mensa. Fortunately for all of us, the affected posters have better sense than to attach much significance to scores on a simple paper-and-pencil IQ test.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
I'm now more convinced than ever that half the people in the World are below average intelligence.
Now see, that's the kind of vaguely insinuating and insulting remark we like to see down here in the Ship's hotter regions. Almost makes me want to put down the sharp implement I'm holding.
Have a biscuit.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
We have some amazingly ignorant dumbasses who've been managing it around here for years.
1. Insulting
2. True.
Thought I might point you to this masterpiece, Frank, since you seem to be so interested in ranking intelligences.
I don't care how intelligent you claim to be, Frank. What our amazingly ignorant dumbasses have demonstrated is that they understand better how to open a discussion on an online discussion website than you do.
Which in that respect makes you inferior to our amazingly ignorant dumbasses. Mensa mustn't test for the ability to solve that kind of pianola problem. Not surprising really. The ability to work exceptionally well in the high abstract is often associated with Epsilon Minus Semi-Moron social skills. The levels of social eccentricity amongst Oxbridge professors in certain disciplines is often discussed by their colleagues with a smile and a shake of the head. Just a different kind of dumb, really.
I'd prefer you to be that sort of dumb. At least that would represent a kind of innocence.
But for me, the evidence is mounting that you're a different kind of dumbass. The kind of high abstract thinker who figures that high Mensa scores and similar tests of problem solving sets him free to take the piss out those he perceives as other kinds of dumb. Which, if true, would be kind of pathetic, really. A sort of intellectual master-racism.
Show-offs always demean themselves in the end. So in cybersocial terms are you innocent dumb, or faux-dumb-mischievous? Seems it's got to be one or the other.
The jury is still out, Frank. We're a kindly lot, often even in our Hellish nastiness. Cut folks a fair bit of slack. Until we become convinced that someone is pissballing about.
Wise up to just how dumb you look. That's if you're interested.
[ 13. January 2014, 01:25: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
In case anyone's wondering, my edit of the previous post was with the poster's agreement. Sometimes I can be all cooperative like that. Other times I'm just a contrary bastard, so don't assume anything.
orfeo
Hellhost
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
Obviously I'm supposed to have Paranormal Powers so I can see Hidden Meanings in the Commandments and Guidelines. Actually a Professor of Psychiatry once said I had a Paranoid Personality, but the Hidden Meanings still elude me.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Now listen here you blithering idiot, there are many people on the Ship with genuine Mental Health issues, past or present, myself among them. They deserve our understanding and compassion. You however are trolling for shits and giggles and make a mockery of the genuine issues that many face.
Roast, you uncouth great oaf.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
Host Hat On
Okay folks, listen up.
There will be an end on this thread to the following:
1. References to the Ship's commandments and whether they've been breached.
2. References to people being kicked off the Ship.
3. Accusations of trolling.
That leaves you plenty of scope for accusing people of being blithering idiots who need to be hit over the head with a clue stick, alright? It leaves you with ample room to suggest that someone has got communication skills so bad they could employ Marcel Marceau as an interpreter.
But the interpretation of Ship rules and policy is over here. If you really feel like you want to discuss that fascinating topic, go to the Styx.
Host Hat Off
Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
I'm now more convinced than ever that half the people in the World are below average intelligence.
The fact that you seem incapable of explaining your ideas in a way that enables others to respond or engage with suggests that you may not be on the side of the half you think you are. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Tubbs
[ 13. January 2014, 10:05: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
:
Look, we all know I'm not even there, is Frank? Do we have any actual evidence of intelligent life in Frank?
Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
We're ALL clever here. Even me at the wee-wee end of the pool. The trick is to be kind and encouraging. Ha!
I can never tell which end of the poo is which.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
If he's a talkbot, it would account the waffle, obtuseness, lack of point, failure to engage and theRandom Use of Capitals. I think you you may have hit it, Martin.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Do we have any actual evidence of intelligent life in Frank?
Not that I can see.
Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell
I'm now more convinced than ever that half the people in the World are below average intelligence.
By definition the statement that "half the people in the World are below average intelligence" must be correct. So your conjecture that you have only now become convinced of that suggests...
Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on
:
Frank, he's like Martin PC lite.
"All of the nonsense, none of the calories."
[ 13. January 2014, 17:29: Message edited by: Pyx_e ]
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell
I'm now more convinced than ever that half the people in the World are below average intelligence.
By definition the statement that "half the people in the World are below average intelligence" must be correct. So your conjecture that you have only now become convinced of that suggests...
That supposes that we are talking about average human intelligence. Maybe we are not.
Intelligence probably folows a scale a bit like temperature. It is difficult to find any animal life with no perceptible intelligence. A lot of it has very little (insects, fish, birds etc), while a little of it has a lot (cetaceans & primates).
From the little I remember of GCE "A" level Maths and Statistics (failed) that gives a modal value for intelligence of something akin to the temperature in outer space, ie, not much more than bugger all. The median value, halfway between the lowest and highest, remembering how the curve is stretched towards higher intelligence by mammals which are rare (both in species terms and population-wise) is around the level of a domesticated pet, albeit a dim one, while the mean, because of the sheer number of beasts of very little brain, is at about the level of Frank Mitchell.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I can never tell which end of the poo is which.
My current Western intelligence level leads me to conclude that the pointy end points to the Black Hole from whence it came
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
:
Frank, you mean before now you were less convinced but you still aren't completely convinced yet? Which half of humanity does that put you in? How convinced are you? 50%?
Serving you high calorie nonsense since 1998.
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
:
rolyn, you sod, I NEVER LOL.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Now I like you again, Marty.
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on
:
John Calvin's Beard, but a shipmate who makes Martin look coherent and intelligent? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Well, Marty, the Weird Mantle is all yours again. Lonely is the head that wears the crown...
I hope you don't mind me calling you Marty. I mean, given we're in Hell there's no way I'm gonna stop,whether you mind or not, but it gives me a giggle, just to let you know.
[ 14. January 2014, 20:02: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
rolyn, you sod, I NEVER LOL.
The best medicine Martin , or so they say .
Wouldn't be knowing all that much about it myself either.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Rolyn, to be frank* , you sometimes bug the shit** out of me, but it does take skill and prowess to craft a poo joke of that level of excellence.
*I know.
** I KNOW.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
If I may, I would suggest that we all grab our Mousethief Coolers, bottles of GIN or Fernet Branca, or whatever else we have handy, review the rules outlined here and here, and read the previous thread.
I think my liver hates me for even thinking about this.
[ 15. January 2014, 03:32: Message edited by: Ariston ]
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on
:
Are you guys still skull-fucking the banned troll? That's the problem with kids these days - no sense of decorum. Back in the Good Old Days™, we would give one good thrust into each eye socket, piss on the corpse, wipe and zip up and saunter away with dignity.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
I was trying to pick a fight with either rolyn or Martin. Just to wrap things up.
Fighting with Martin is fun; all I have to do is say exactly what I think and he dances the dance of the seven veils around me.
By the way, that post of yours is imagery worthy of a Peter Greenway film.
[ 15. January 2014, 05:31: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Fighting with Martin is fun; all I have to do is say exactly what I think and he dances the dance of the seven veils around me.
So who's John the Baptist in this scenario?
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
Frank—
Ok, Grasshopper, you want the secrets of the universe? The meaning of life? With math and magic thrown in? Then do the following:
--Read “The Tao Of Pooh”, by Benjamin Hoff.
--Read “Goedel, Escher, And Bach: The Eternal Golden Braid”, by Douglas Hofstadter.
--Read “Surreal Numbers”, by D. E. Knuth.
--Watch the entire “Kung Fu” TV series, from the ‘70s.
--Watch “The Fifth Element”.
--Watch “Godspell”.
--Read “Miss Rumphius”, by Barbara Cooney.
--Read “Carpe Jugulum”, by Terry Pratchett.
--Read “Peace Is Every Step”, by Thich Nhat Hanh.
Read/watch, learn, and inwardly digest. Then put that all away. Go outside, do something kind for someone—and then have some ice cream.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
GK, Frank has been booted off the Ship and won't be reading any of your sage advice.
Well, actually, maybe he'll be reading it, but as he's unable to respond it's best not to attempt conversations with him.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
Orfeo--
Ah. Thanks. Hadn't heard that.
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
:
Greenaway. I'd compulsively rather be right than happy. Loading up on tea towels.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Arggh. I caught that a day after I posted, and decided too many people has seen it for me to abuse my editing powers.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
RuthW
Maybe something to practice on? That drinks link is OLD ... no popcorn in sight. A few good poo jokes is all.
Even RooK's skull image seems to have an air of desperation .. that's not something you can say all that often.
Just saying afore I get mai coat. Oh yes
(In case he lurks)
Bye bye, shade of Frank. It's not been nice; mostly boring same-old-same-old But that's what I've learned to expect from faux-dumbass-mischief makers. If you want to try your sockpuppet luck, I wouldn't bother. You were lucky to get to 72 posts really.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Are you guys still skull-fucking the banned troll? That's the problem with kids these days - no sense of decorum. Back in the Good Old Days™, we would give one good thrust into each eye socket, piss on the corpse, wipe and zip up and saunter away with dignity.
Whereas today, we at least offer to cuddle.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
RuthW
Maybe something to practice on?
Practice? Aw, come on. My hellishness isn't that rusty.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
I'm now more convinced than ever that half the people in the World are below average intelligence.
Now see, that's the kind of vaguely insinuating and insulting remark we like to see down here in the Ship's hotter regions. Almost makes me want to put down the sharp implement I'm holding.
Have a biscuit.
Posts like that, and threads like this, make me realise afresh how much I love the Ship, even Hell - where it's usually far too hot for me to do anything except lurk.
Nen - running before she roasts...
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Read “Carpe Jugulum”, by Terry Pratchett.
I read that one on advice from The Ship and I can't say I really derived any hard core deep truths from it.
I only remember Mightily Oats going off to help the people in darkness who he thought would really need it.
Meaning of life = Do something useful where it's needed?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Meaning of life = Do something useful where it's needed?
I can think of worse meanings.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
RuthW
Maybe something to practice on?
Practice? Aw, come on. My hellishness isn't that rusty.
Hee-hee. For what we are about to receive ....
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Meaning of life = Do something useful where it's needed?
I can think of worse meanings.
That kind of thing isn't really a meaning.
It's more of a "what would be a good thing to do while I find myself in this odd world". More of a stopgap really.
OTOH if you believe you are participating in the Kingdom of God by doing so then it would point to Ultimate Meaning.
OTOH the Christian tradition is not all that clear on Ultimate Meaning. The question of "why did God create us" is not really answered except perhaps by Genesis.
Cos in Genesis God creates us to ponce around the Garden nekkid and have a fine time chillaxing with her - taking walks in the evening breeze.
Cos really, "tilling and keeping" the Garden seems a rather superfluous occupation. I mean really, what for ?
[ 16. January 2014, 13:33: Message edited by: Evensong ]
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
You don't like gardening?
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
*profound moment alert*
Actually I do. One of my favourite pastimes.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Meaning of life = Do something useful where it's needed?
I can think of worse meanings.
That kind of thing isn't really a meaning.
What is the meaning of a screwdriver?
(and spare me any lame "vodka and orange" jokes you may have been considering)
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
OTOH the Christian tradition is not all that clear on Ultimate Meaning. The question of "why did God create us" is not really answered except perhaps by Genesis.
To the contrary, Christian tradition is quite clear about the purpose of man. It can be stated in two (and a half) points. First, as part of creation and hence like all creation man's end is to add to the glory of God. While God's perfection cannot be increased intrinsically, extrinsically His glory is increased by the praise of His creation. Second, in a more personal sense the end of man is to attain his own beatitude, a perfect harmony of his self, mind and body, in happiness and righteousness. The half point is that while man's nature points to this end, it cannot be attained by nature alone in this world, but requires God's supernatural grace. Thus this natural end points man to his eternal destiny with God.
Posted by pydseybare (# 16184) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
To the contrary, Christian tradition is quite clear about the purpose of man. It can be stated in two (and a half) points. First, as part of creation and hence like all creation man's end is to add to the glory of God. While God's perfection cannot be increased intrinsically, extrinsically His glory is increased by the praise of His creation.
That is not really a very useful point as anything can be said to be done for the 'glory of God', up to an including the total destruction of all that he has made.
quote:
Second, in a more personal sense the end of man is to attain his own beatitude, a perfect harmony of his self, mind and body, in happiness and righteousness.
Why? How do you know that such a harmony is even possible?
quote:
The half point is that while man's nature points to this end, it cannot be attained by nature alone in this world, but requires God's supernatural grace. Thus this natural end points man to his eternal destiny with God.
Not a point at all. You're just saying here that man exists because God wants him to, but with other extraneous wordy detail. The same might be said of worms or any other part of the created order.
[ 17. January 2014, 10:58: Message edited by: pydseybare ]
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
That is not really a very useful point as anything can be said to be done for the 'glory of God', up to an including the total destruction of all that he has made.
For all her faults, Evensong - whom I was talking to - is neither a psychopathic idiot (i.e., she is not spectacularly ignorant or incapable of the law God has written on her heart) nor does she lack all Christian formation (i.e., she is not spectacularly ignorant or incapable of the law God has revealed to mankind). Maybe you are one or the other, or both. In which case please start destroying creation by smashing whatever you use to access the internet.
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Why? How do you know that such a harmony is even possible?
Don't worry, Christianity has a place for those who desire a disharmony of self, mind and body, in sadness and depravity. If that is what you desire, then in a certain ironic sense you've already reached your destination. Congratulations. And if you had paid attention to what I was saying, then you would know that it is precisely not possible to attain beatitude in this life. But to long for it is possible, and in manifold more or less conscious and healthy ways, that's what most people do. It is part of Christian hope, the good news, that God will fulfil these longings.
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Not a point at all. You're just saying here that man exists because God wants him to, but with other extraneous wordy detail. The same might be said of worms or any other part of the created order.
Well, no. I was stating something important about beatitude. I've just repeated that, and maybe you will comprehend it now. Worms glorify God by doing what is proper to worms. It is more complicated for us, because we are more complicated than worms. Well, most of us are, I can't speak for you there, obviously.
Posted by pydseybare (# 16184) on
:
Sorry, I forgot you were a bigot, IngoB.
Never speak to me again.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
:
I love it when people who know they're losing the argument resort to calling the other person names. Gives me a warm glow inside.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Sorry, I forgot you were a bigot, IngoB.
Never speak to me again.
The remedy's in your own hands. Don't read IngoB's posts, but you'll learn more reading them than you'll ever do writing your own.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
quote:
I can't speak for you there, obviously
Squelch has a characteristic sound, whether one is talking about worms or people. Or wormy people, I guess. *
Like him or loathe him, IngoB does have a way with words.
*[delete as appropriate]
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Sorry, I forgot you were a bigot, IngoB.
Not at all. He treats all fools equally.
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Meaning of life = Do something useful where it's needed?
I can think of worse meanings.
That kind of thing isn't really a meaning.
What is the meaning of a screwdriver?
A screwdriver does not have a meaning, it has a function.
Besides, it's a poor analogy for the meaning of humanity because it is neither sentient, nor created by God.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
OTOH the Christian tradition is not all that clear on Ultimate Meaning. The question of "why did God create us" is not really answered except perhaps by Genesis.
To the contrary, Christian tradition is quite clear about the purpose of man. It can be stated in two (and a half) points. First, as part of creation and hence like all creation man's end is to add to the glory of God. While God's perfection cannot be increased intrinsically, extrinsically His glory is increased by the praise of His creation.
Pietistic sounding, irrational non-sense.
Firstly, existentially, being something for the benefit of another (God) is not a meaning for humanity per se (in and of itself - apart from function or utility to that other).
Secondly, God does not require our praise for her extrinsic glory. Unless of course God is competing with another god or patting himself on the back and saying "oh look how clever I am! I made human beings!". Sounds like a God with low self esteem.
No.
The praise of her creation lies in the fact that we are created by God and exist solely by God's will and grace.
I mean really, would you rather exist or not?
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Second, in a more personal sense the end of man is to attain his own beatitude, a perfect harmony of his self, mind and body, in happiness and righteousness.
No again. That's a very utilitarian and temporary understanding of meaning. There has to be an existential, long term meaning for our existence to be rational for and of itself.
Think back to the Garden of Eden in Genesis and the future of the new heaven and new earth in Revelation.
Humanity was created and it was Good. We lived in perfect harmony, happiness and righteousness with God. (Think chillaxing in the evening breeze ).
So beatitude is only a stopgap, a temporary stopgap in the history of salvation to recoup what we once had before. It points to no ultimate meaning for our original creation and ultimate future.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The half point is that while man's nature points to this end, it cannot be attained by nature alone in this world, but requires God's supernatural grace. Thus this natural end points man to his eternal destiny with God.
Quite. The new heaven and new earth (Revelation) has not yet arrived.
Yet when it does, we will be but right back where we started - in perfect communion with God.
Now that's all well and good and I look forward to it, but it still doesn't explain why God created us in the first place.
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Sorry, I forgot you were a bigot, IngoB.
Never speak to me again.
Bingo delights in the ad-hominem roly poly of Hell and should rarely be taken personally here. (i.e. he's the standard Hell dickhead). The main people you should be worried about taking personally in Hell are the nice people ( e.g. Golden Key or Lyda Rose) or the wise people ( e.g. Raptor Eye or Anyuta). Ingo is neither kind nor wise, mainly clever. The only time he should be taken half seriously is in Purgatory.
As for the peanut gallery, they tend to side with those with the most rhetorical flourish and rarely give credence to those who are right or true. (except maybe orfeo occasionally - he's a bit OCD in a good way).
So in short, STAND TALL in Hell. Water off a duck's back, water off a ducks back.
Personally I thought you had some good points.
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
he's the standard Hell dickhead
I love your irony.
[ 18. January 2014, 12:13: Message edited by: balaam ]
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Read “Carpe Jugulum”, by Terry Pratchett.
I read that one on advice from The Ship and I can't say I really derived any hard core deep truths from it.
I only remember Mightily Oats going off to help the people in darkness who he thought would really need it.
Meaning of life = Do something useful where it's needed?
Ok, some of the truths and good ideas in the book:
--Sin starts with treating people like things. (Per Granny Weatherwax).
--Try to be fair and merciful (however harshly) to your enemies. Teach them something. (Per the way Granny dealt with the vampires, towards the end of the book.
--Don't chase faith; just try to live faithfully--and that's hard enough. (Granny's discussion with Rev. Oats.)
--It's ok to question. (More Granny and Oats.)
--How much are you prepared to risk for what you say you believe? (Throughout the book.)
There's lots more. It's one of my favorite books. In fact, I think that all clergy and potential clergy, of any faith, should read "Carpe Jugulum" and Margaret Craven's "I Heard The Owl Call My Name". Pretty much all the *important* stuff they need to know is there.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Jesus, GK, you're like Kwan Yin. You stroll through Hell tossing daisies and no-one touches you.
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on
:
She's the Secret Master. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
LOL and thanks, Kelly and Lyda Rose.
I've been Hell-scorched, actually, at times.
BTW, Kel, the Quan Yin comparison is more of a compliment than you know--I'm very fond of her. (Not correcting your spelling! I just usually use the Q spelling.)
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
Just made this up.
"Avoidance of hand grenade tossing create great peace of mind. Daisy tossing better, Grasshopper".
You can kind of feel the 'shut that door' moment approaching ..
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Read “Carpe Jugulum”, by Terry Pratchett.
I read that one on advice from The Ship and I can't say I really derived any hard core deep truths from it.
I only remember Mightily Oats going off to help the people in darkness who he thought would really need it.
Meaning of life = Do something useful where it's needed?
Ok, some of the truths and good ideas in the book:
--Sin starts with treating people like things. (Per Granny Weatherwax).
--Try to be fair and merciful (however harshly) to your enemies. Teach them something. (Per the way Granny dealt with the vampires, towards the end of the book.
--Don't chase faith; just try to live faithfully--and that's hard enough. (Granny's discussion with Rev. Oats.)
--It's ok to question. (More Granny and Oats.)
--How much are you prepared to risk for what you say you believe? (Throughout the book.)
There's lots more. It's one of my favorite books. In fact, I think that all clergy and potential clergy, of any faith, should read "Carpe Jugulum" and Margaret Craven's "I Heard The Owl Call My Name". Pretty much all the *important* stuff they need to know is there.
Fair enough. Good truths.
But not the meaning of life. Again, more of a stopgap on how to live now.
But why did God create us in the first place?
Ingo seems to have collapsed under the weight of my brilliant questions.
Perhaps someone else has some ideas?
Come at me bros.
Please?
(It's an issue close to my heart - *sob*)
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But why did God create us in the first place?
Nobody will ever know for sure. If there were an answer it'd be clear by now imo.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Perhaps someone else has some ideas?
Come at me bros.
Please?
(It's an issue close to my heart - *sob*)
Maybe start a thread in Purg? Not many will want to post their serious ideas down here.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
What is the meaning of a screwdriver?
A screwdriver does not have a meaning, it has a function.
My point exactly.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
Evensong
It is a bit weird to be discussing this in hell, but there are two questions here. Why did God create us, and what is the meaning of life?
I would take them separately. I think my answer to the second one is that there are multiple meanings, and people work out different ones, and probably most people have a whole gallery of them.
For example, I appreciate art, literature and music; I like people, well some of them; I like ideas; I find spiritual stuff from different traditions inspiring; I like football. Well, so on and so on. These are all meanings in my life, although any one of them is not the single monolithic meaning of life. I don't think there is such a thing actually.
Back to 'why did God create us?'. Dunno.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Ingo seems to have collapsed under the weight of my brilliant questions.
"When anyone rose to the level of an error worth noticing, he would take the trouble to correct it"
(Adapted from C S Lewis's "Suprised by Joy")
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
can't speak for the rest of you pathetic losers, but God created me because there just wasn't sufficient Wiseass in the world.
and, apparently, to feed cats.
Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Back to 'why did God create us?'. Dunno.
I think the best answer to this that I have seen is the one given by God at the end of "Dogma".
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But why did God create us in the first place?
He was having a laugh.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But why did God create us in the first place?
Whimsy.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
Boredom.
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on
:
Because it's good to be alive.
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Ingo seems to have collapsed under the weight of my brilliant questions.
I'm neither kind nor wise, and you certainly aren't clever. So silence seemed like a rather good option.
Your original assertion has been dealt with. Dislike does not change history. As for your feeble questioning, I did not talk about who is benefiting from creation's praise, it does not get much more existential that worms praising God by being worms, and Adam and Eve did not enjoy final beatitude. However, my answer was just a part/aspect of tradition, and trying to fill in the gaps while at the same time dealing with your confusion is like solving nuclear physics problems while playing hopscotch.
Concerning the question at hand, Marvin and comet both demonstrate better philosophical understanding by their comments than you do. That should be sufficiently embarrassing for you to curl up in some corner and sob uncontrollably.
Please do so in order to restore harmony to the universe.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
Joanna--
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Back to 'why did God create us?'. Dunno.
I think the best answer to this that I have seen is the one given by God at the end of "Dogma".
Reminder of what that is, please? Long time since I saw it. Thanks.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
[qb] But why did God create us in the first place?
Love.
Trad answer (from Athanasios, when asked why did God create Satan) God loves everyone. You want to do good to people you love. It is better to exist than not to exist. Therefore God, being omnipotent, will create every sentient being that can possibly exist. Even sinners and Satan.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Concerning the question at hand, Marvin and comet both demonstrate better philosophical understanding by their comments than you do. That should be sufficiently embarrassing for you to curl up in some corner and sob uncontrollably.
I choose to take that as a compliment
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Love.
"The effusive nature of love" is one traditional answer, yes.
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Trad answer (from Athanasios, when asked why did God create Satan) God loves everyone. You want to do good to people you love. It is better to exist than not to exist. Therefore God, being omnipotent, will create every sentient being that can possibly exist. Even sinners and Satan.
Since this answer is clearly complete bullshit, given that not all possible sentient beings exist even considered across all of time (*), I would like to see for myself what Athanasios actually wrote there. Reference?
(*) Even sticking just to human beings, there clearly can be infinitely many different possible ones (and more than aleph-zero-infinitely many as well). And then there are presumably infinitely many possible types of sentient beings. So to "exhaust" this, one would have to postulate the creation of some kind of multi-multiverse. That's nonsensical on available evidence, and it actually does not explain at all why we are facing Satan. After all, Satan could just exist in another of the infinitely-infinitely many universes.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
ken: Therefore God, being omnipotent, will create every sentient being that can possibly exist. Even sinners and Satan.
Being omnipotent means that He can create all of these, not that He will.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Concerning the question at hand, Marvin and comet both demonstrate better philosophical understanding by their comments than you do. That should be sufficiently embarrassing for you to curl up in some corner and sob uncontrollably.
I choose to take that as a compliment
Making people weep in despair is just one of the many services we provide around here.
We just give and give and give...
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Joanna--
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Back to 'why did God create us?'. Dunno.
I think the best answer to this that I have seen is the one given by God at the end of "Dogma".
Reminder of what that is, please? Long time since I saw it. Thanks.
Toward the end of this clip. (May not be work safe: Jay drops lots of F bombs. At God. )
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Concerning the question at hand, Marvin and comet both demonstrate better philosophical understanding by their comments than you do. That should be sufficiently embarrassing for you to curl up in some corner and sob uncontrollably.
I choose to take that as a compliment
Seems safe. I think he said you and comet had brains. The question of Evensong's brain appears to him to be (ehem) a bit of a no-brainer.
Mary Stuart Masterson put it well in "Some Kind of Wonderful"
quote:
You mess with the bull. You get the horns. Hear what I'm saying?
Mind you, she was shooting craps with cab-drivers at the time, so maybe it doesn't quite read across. But it seemed like quite a good fit ..
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Toward the end of this clip. (May not be work safe: Jay drops lots of F bombs. At God. )
FWIW, the entire movie is on YouTube as full HD here. Funny movie, the only weak bits are when they start ediorialising now and then. And I agree, the answer given is good.
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think he said you and comet had brains.
It was a hierarchical triple insult backhanded compliment. Which gets ruined by having to explain it.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It was a hierarchical triple insult backhanded compliment.
Difficulty rating 2.4. Don't forget to eliminate the highest and lowest scores from the judges.
Posted by koshatnik (# 11938) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
can't speak for the rest of you pathetic losers, but God created me because there just wasn't sufficient Wiseass in the world.
and, apparently, to feed cats.
Have you tried crossing water to throw them off the scent?
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Funny movie, the only weak bits are when they start ediorialising now and then. And I agree, the answer given is good.
Wow, I have discovered a sentence you wrote, every single word of which I agree with.
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It is a bit weird to be discussing this in hell, but there are two questions here. Why did God create us, and what is the meaning of life?
I would take them separately.
Thanks. I guess where I differ is that I take them to be the same thing.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Ingo seems to have collapsed under the weight of my brilliant questions.
I'm neither kind nor wise, and you certainly aren't clever. So silence seemed like a rather good option.
I am very clever, you just don't like my questions.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Your original assertion has been dealt with.
Where?
You gave me an answer (for the glory of God) and I pointed out the flaws in the reasoning and you stayed silent. I assumed you didn't pick up the gauntlet because you were unable to.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Dislike does not change history.
My dislike at your answer was based on its ultimately flawed reasoning; or rather it's insufficient reasoning rather than a subjective preference you seem to be implying. It did not go far enough to answer the basic question of Aristotle's final cause. (See? I'm learning something from Feser. ). I'm hoping Feser doesn't come up with the same answer you do. That would be disappointing.
Unless of course he explains what he means by "the glory of God" better than you do.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
As for your feeble questioning, I did not talk about who is benefiting from creation's praise, it does not get much more existential that worms praising God by being worms, and Adam and Eve did not enjoy final beatitude.
You're still missing the link between existence per se and for the glory of another (God).
As for Adam and Eve not being in communion with God initially (and us finally), I'm assuming you get this from some other obscure tradition rather than scripture because it certainly aint the faith of the scriptures.
I take it Adam and Eve were created imperfectly in your view then?
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Because it's good to be alive.
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
[qb] But why did God create us in the first place?
Love.
Trad answer (from Athanasios, when asked why did God create Satan) God loves everyone. You want to do good to people you love. It is better to exist than not to exist. Therefore God, being omnipotent, will create every sentient being that can possibly exist. Even sinners and Satan.
These two come closest to Best Answers Available IMV.
The only problem it comes up against is that some people's existence is just pure shit (through no obvious fault of their own) so it rather falls down on points of theodicy.
(not into the satan thing but in terms of better to exist than not exist - yes).
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think he said you and comet had brains.
It was a hierarchical triple insult backhanded compliment. Which gets ruined by having to explain it.
Very slow, IngoB. I didn't say how many or of what quality. You just lost a style point for falling off your high bar.
Nutmegged you I'm afraid. Proves you can't win them all. Look at that cute "Seems likely".
Heck I'm a Purg Host. Ambiguity 101 in play.
Do catch up. I'm sure the Martian and the Redhead got it straight away.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
As for Adam and Eve not being in communion with God initially (and us finally), I'm assuming you get this from some other obscure tradition rather than scripture because it certainly aint the faith of the scriptures.
If the Orthodox and Roman Catholic traditions are obscure to you, then you really need to get out of your little Protestant ghetto more.
quote:
I take it Adam and Eve were created imperfectly in your view then?
Not imperfect but incomplete. A caterpillar can be a perfect caterpillar, but it is not yet a butterfly.
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
[QB][/QB]
Oh crapola. Really?
The better answer comes from Kurt Vonnegut, approximately thus for my purposes: "The triumph of everything is organization. Heaven is organized along the lines of the Mafia."
Which explains a lot.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Mary Stuart Masterson put it well in "Some Kind of Wonderful"
quote:
You mess with the bull. You get the horns. Hear what I'm saying?
Mind you, she was shooting craps with cab-drivers at the time, so maybe it doesn't quite read across. But it seemed like quite a good fit ..
I used to think those horns made a nice trophy, stuck up on the wall. Problem is, 'round here, the the bulls don't recognise you've taken their horns off.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
I'm feeling all generous so was ready to repair your code, NP, but I can't figure out what the fuck you were trying to do, there.
so unless you were making some profound statement that my Bingo-impressing massive, sexy brains somehow missed, your idiocy stands for the record. yay for you.
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
I take it Adam and Eve were created imperfectly in your view then?
Not imperfect but incomplete. A caterpillar can be a perfect caterpillar, but it is not yet a butterfly.
Incomplete? How so?
God created Adam and Eve and saw that it was "Good".
If we're created incomplete we can hardly be blamed for our flaws then can we?
Shoddy workmanship.
OTOH that's fairly self-evident in scripture too. By about chapter 7 Genesis God is sorry that she made humankind because their nature was inclined always to evil and violence.
Hence the flood and a re-creation.
After that seems rather a compromise.
So what does the ghetto of your tradition say then?
[ 23. January 2014, 11:15: Message edited by: Evensong ]
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
I've been to Ghetto. Quite a nice-looking place these days, actually. But rather cramped.
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I am very clever, you just don't like my questions.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Your original assertion has been dealt with.
Where?
- "X does not say something about A."
- "To the contrary, X does say something about A. Namely B."
- "But B is wrong because of random crap C filling my head."
- "Your original assertion has been answered."
- "Where?"
For 3 clever points, can you show the questioner where? Write down the sentence number.
For 5 clever points, discuss briefly (<100 words) whether it would make a difference if C was brilliant insight instead of random crap.
For 3 clever points, estimate the likelihood that C is brilliant insight given the question in 5.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You're still missing the link between existence per se and for the glory of another (God).
The only existent per se is God. When you worship God, who benefits?
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I take it Adam and Eve were created imperfectly in your view then?
Not at all. They were created naturally perfect, had the preternatural gifts of infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence and bodily immortality, and possessed the supernatural gift of sanctifying grace.
Yet the saints in heaven cannot sin, but Adam and Eve did. Try to understand why, and you will discover why I spoke of final beatitude, and what Adam and Eve were lacking.
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think he said you and comet had brains. ... I'm sure the Martian and the Redhead got it straight away.
Are you in the habit of explaining things to people that they already understand, even if you are sure that they understand them?
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
my Bingo-impressing massive, sexy brains
I would love to get my hands on your huge hemispheres, to slowly and systematically scan their structure, probe their functional responses gently with some gradient echoes, and trace their diffusive properties to find those elusive connections to deeper, much deeper centres of spontaneous activity...
...but unfortunately the MR scanner is all booked this week.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
my Bingo-impressing massive, sexy brains
I would love to get my hands on your huge hemispheres, to slowly and systematically scan their structure, probe their functional responses gently with some gradient echoes, and trace their diffusive properties to find those elusive connections to deeper, much deeper centres of spontaneous activity...
*fans self* you silver-tongued cerebral freak, you!
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think he said you and comet had brains. ... I'm sure the Martian and the Redhead got it straight away.
Are you in the habit of explaining things to people that they already understand, even if you are sure that they understand them?
Only when it seems like a good opportunity to wind up your logical precision. Gently of course, in recognition of your Evensong squish. Nice move, that. But I do have my capricious moments. Need to relax from reading and writing mammoth posts in Purg.
Do carry on enticing the Redhead BTW. Now that looks likes a promising subtext ..
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Only when it seems like a good opportunity to wind up your logical precision. Gently of course, in recognition of your Evensong squish. Nice move, that.
I was squished was I?
Must've missed it.
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I am very clever, you just don't like my questions.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Your original assertion has been dealt with.
Where?
- "X does not say something about A."
- "To the contrary, X does say something about A. Namely B."
- "But B is wrong because of random crap C filling my head."
- "Your original assertion has been answered."
- "Where?"
*looks around for B. Can't see it*
Must be a case of to be or not to be.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You're still missing the link between existence per se and for the glory of another (God).
The only existent per se is God.
According to who and whose axiom?
If humanity has no existence per se then God is vain (or somesuch like I referred to above) or of his/her nature not a giver but a taker (which is not what the biblical witness reports).
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
When you worship God, who benefits?
Me. So?
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I take it Adam and Eve were created imperfectly in your view then?
Not at all. They were created naturally perfect, had the preternatural gifts of infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence and bodily immortality, and possessed the supernatural gift of sanctifying grace.
Yet the saints in heaven cannot sin, but Adam and Eve did. Try to understand why, and you will discover why I spoke of final beatitude, and what Adam and Eve were lacking.
Final beatification sounds rather stultifying. No free-will eh?
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
*looks around for B. Can't see it*
Must be a case of to be or not to be.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Sorry Evensong, 'twas pydseybare, not you. No link intended, not even a capricious one. Squished myself!
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
*looks around for B. Can't see it*
Must be a case of to be or not to be.
Oh come on. That was effing brilliant.
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Sorry Evensong, 'twas pydseybare, not you. No link intended, not even a capricious one. Squished myself!
You sure about that? You mentioned my name at least three times in a derogatory manner on the last page.
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
:
Don't be paranoid, just because he's criticised you on another page. I can disagree with some things you say (I'm sure I have quite a few times) yet agree with others. I found this quite profound. quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
When you worship God, who benefits?
Me. So?
Sometimes brevity is best.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Sorry Evensong, 'twas pydseybare, not you. No link intended, not even a capricious one. Squished myself!
You sure about that? You mentioned my name at least three times in a derogatory manner on the last page.
Yes. I simply conflated the pydseybare "worm squish" with the Evensong/Marvin/comet "brain" exchange. Quite liked the latter, BTW, but IngoB was having a comparative dig at all three of you. I didn't see that in the same light as the pydseybare worm exchange.
I begin to see why IngoB made the point about explaining these kinds of remarks! But that's what was going on. Honest injun. I need more practice in Hell.
So I'll get mai coat now ...
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
Down feathers, down.
All G.
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
According to who and whose axiom?
According to the Christian belief that God is the Creator, and all else is creation. Or if you prefer, according to the metaphysical conclusion that there is only one Uncaused Cause.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If humanity has no existence per se then God is vain (or somesuch like I referred to above) or of his/her nature not a giver but a taker (which is not what the biblical witness reports).
Nothing exists necessarily but God. Everything else exists for a reason, namely God. "Vanity" is not a helpful label in this context.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
When you worship God, who benefits?
Me. So?
Precisely. So who benefits when you give glory to God?
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Final beatification sounds rather stultifying. No free-will eh?
Of course there is free will in heaven. What has changed is that the saints (and blessed angels) can see clearly what they want.
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
According to who and whose axiom?
According to the Christian belief that God is the Creator, and all else is creation. Or if you prefer, according to the metaphysical conclusion that there is only one Uncaused Cause.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If humanity has no existence per se then God is vain (or somesuch like I referred to above) or of his/her nature not a giver but a taker (which is not what the biblical witness reports).
Nothing exists necessarily but God. Everything else exists for a reason, namely God. "Vanity" is not a helpful label in this context.
Ah. Interesting. I think we're getting hung up on semantics again.
I understand and agree with the Uncaused cause and that nothing exists necessarily but God but is that the same thing as asking Why? Isn't that more the How?
Are we talking at cross purposes here because you're assuming efficient cause rather than final cause?
For example: the beautiful rubber ball analogy of Feser's on pgs 62 - 63 in The Last Superstition. The efficient cause is the factory that made the ball. The final cause is the child's amusement.
What is our final cause? Amusement? Or you say the glory of God. But the why question is still begging. The next step still needs to be taken.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
When you worship God, who benefits?
Me. So?
Precisely. So who benefits when you give glory to God?
But actually you are hinting at final cause here aren't you? Glorifying God acts as a kind of feedback loop for humanity wot?
So I suppose the question that remains is exactly what benefit do we get when we glorify God? Self-transcendence?
But then I suppose one could start muttering to oneself about the initial need for self at all wot? Why did God create humanity and self when the point is to transcend it?
Enter stage left - Evensong's brain explodes.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Final beatification sounds rather stultifying. No free-will eh?
Of course there is free will in heaven. What has changed is that the saints (and blessed angels) can see clearly what they want.
Interesting idea. It implies Adam and Eve didn't know what they wanted. The text of Genesis tells us they knew what they wanted. They wanted to be wise like God.
Which still raises the question of why God didn't like the idea in the Garden but doesn't mind it in final beatification.....
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
oh shut the fuck up, both of you. get your heads out of your asses and go outside and interact with humans.
Jaysus. life is too short for this shit.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
Reading this I firstly give thanks I don't have to, then I think "How the hell did this come into being?" Then I remember the threadstarter, but Holy Moly, we can't hold Frank responsible for some of the recent garbage.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
Bored now.
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
get your heads out of your asses and go outside and interact with humans.
I think Evensong is human. I could be wrong... Also, it was raining outside (NSFW?) and I ran out of people to interact with.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Bingo, have you been reading Timothy Leary?
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Also, it was raining outside and I ran out of people to interact with.
wimp.
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
oh shut the fuck up, both of you. get your heads out of your asses and go outside and interact with humans.
Jaysus. life is too short for this shit.
But comet, I'm a theologian. This shit is what I do for a living. It's what gets me out of bed in the morning.
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
And today the feast day of Aquinas. How apposite.
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