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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Doubting
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
...Personally I have not (yet ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) ) lost the sense that there is Someone there but a lot of my beliefs about that Someone are under review. I am, I think, more secure in that place of change than I was...
I can identify with that - I am not sure what the word God means, I am not sure what I believe...
...AND I do believe...
...AND I believe that that is all that I need.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
Yes I'm aware that in some ways I've made a rod for my own back in going Evo. But I can't stress enough how scary it was going back to church and familiarity was a big plus. Also, even though it can be agenda-laden, people willing to be friendly and talk to me. And I am a bit of an odd fish now that I don't fit a lot of evangelical doctrine I still tend toward charismatic in my worship style. Tongues is a large part of my personal prayer life.
You could have gone back to Methodism - that's not very scary! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Your interesting response has highlighted the fact that there are different kinds of doubting, though. For someone like me, spiritual silence is a difficulty. Yet you're still able to pray in tongues even though you're experiencing doubt. Speaking only for myself, if I had such spiritual connections with God I might pay less heed to my doubts....
Would you say that your doubts spring from a tension between your heart and your head? Is your doubt directed towards particular doctrinal positions rather than towards God's presence in your life?
I hope you don't mind me asking these questions, but your experience is in some ways encouraging for me, although I know it must be hard for you.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
Talked to a lovely lady at church this morning who "lost her faith" (her words) for 20 years and only came back after the death of her husband. Made me feel less alone.
I'd also be interested in a "journey back" thread. I'm going out for a walk now but uf no-one else has I'll start it when I get back.
[ 19. January 2014, 14:30: Message edited by: Late Paul ]
Posts: 3690 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
And I am a bit of an odd fish now that I don't fit a lot of evangelical doctrine I still tend toward charismatic in my worship style. Tongues is a large part of my personal prayer life.
Same kind of odd fish here too - I'm a liberal/universalist/doubter who still tends towards charismatic worship styles and still prays in tongues (when I can be bothered to pray at all).
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
Thank you for that honest and encouraging post, Barnabas62. I think a thread about journeys back and how people's beliefs and perspectives have changed would be interesting. Personally I have not (yet ) lost the sense that there is Someone there but a lot of my beliefs about that Someone are under review. I am, I think, more secure in that place of change than I was. Consequently the fire and brimstone ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) sermon that was preached at my church this morning didn't disturb me the way it would have not so very long ago.
Nen - reeking of sulphur but about to put the kettle on for coffee.
Yes. There is someone there, and also, here. I suppose I see this someone speaking in all religions, why not? However, this is provisional of course.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
And I am a bit of an odd fish now that I don't fit a lot of evangelical doctrine I still tend toward charismatic in my worship style. Tongues is a large part of my personal prayer life.
Same kind of odd fish here too - I'm a liberal/universalist/doubter who still tends towards charismatic worship styles and still prays in tongues (when I can be bothered to pray at all).
That's interesting. I often wonder how much doubt there is in such churches. There must be a fair amount, because many churches do tend to become more theologically liberal over time. The use of tongues often declines as well, so I'm told.
I think one reason why I can't bring myself to belong permanently to an evangelical church is that I don't want to see the process of liberalisation taking place around me, and I certainly don't want to contribute to it. Doubt is part of faith, yes. But doubt as we frequently experience it in our culture doesn't build strong churches, although it might be a helpful state of existence for certain individuals.
I'd rather keep my doubt for those parts of the CofE or the Methodist Church where it can't really do much harm. And where they can't do harm to me.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
That's thought provoking SV2.
I am probably a liberal in an evangelical house church. I emphasise the Gospels in contrast to their emphasis on the epistles. My theology is more narrative while theirs is more propositional. We live in a New Age spirituality area and I look for similarities and points of contact rather than distinctiveness.
Together we can worship and support on another. I hope my challenges do not kill their spirit. They are wanting to be authentic.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
What an interesting and helpful thread...some wonderful and honest and moving posts, thank you to Nicodemia and Barnabas and Late Paul, but not only them...
WW, I love how you sit easy with your doubts....and your belief.
Quetzalcoatl, I too see paths to God in other religions..
As I've often said on the Ship, being brought up in strict Catholicism meant that for years and years I thought that there was, somewhere, The Truth, and if the Catholics didn't have it, I needed to find out who did...which evolved into a realisation that no one church can possibly have the Whole Truth, correct in every detail...which of course was the beginning of a sort of slide further and further away from any certainty about what I believe. Since I found the Anglican church, of course, I've been able to feel comfortable within it, even as my faith became feebler, because it doesn't demand certainties...But I haven't been to church for ages, first for geographical reasons,and now because I'm out of the habit...
I wonder, though, how much of our doubting and loss of faith is due to our simply straying away from what feeds us?
It's like when you slack off from exercise, although you know it's good for you...you start to think of yourself as a non-exerciser, and because you aren't getting the benefits, you start to think exercise isn't that important to you...but when you get back into it again, you say to yourself, Wow, this is amazing, I feel so much better, how did I forget all about this?
Can simply slipping into "bad" habits, or away from church-going and prayer habits, create and continue the loss of faith?
How important is discipline?
I'm a writer, but between projects am often lazy about writing..then I forget how to do it as a regular thing...it slips out of my life...I am not happy, I know I am missing out on something important to me, I know I am not truly me if not writing....but I fall out of the habit. (Hm. Maybe time for shore leave from the Ship!!)
When I get back into it, though, I am nourished! I am surprised all over again. I am fed at some deep level.
Same with church.
Spirit willing, flesh weak.....do we need other Christians??
But then, we fear we are being swept along in the crowd!
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Pondering.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Nice post, Cara. I am a writer also, and am currently having a long holiday from it.
Your point about being away from the church is interesting, as I am currently well away. Sometimes I feel sad, but mainly a great relief.
I have spent 50 years going to church, so now this is my time, and I want to slip the leash and so on, and allow some emptiness and space in me, with less words.
But my life seems to be a series of letting gos at the moment, I stopped work, I stopped writing, several friends died, I've stopped being a Christian. I don't know how much further this can go. It reminds me of the great Heart Sutra, form is emptiness, and the very emptiness is form.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
See, liberalism theology-wise (although there are far more liberal Christians than me) makes perfect sense to me intellectually, so that is why I am a liberal Christian. But I don't feel wholly comfortable with it. I naturally go for more black and white standpoints. I am an INFJ and wonder if that has an impact? I tend to need a 'cause' to be very definite about.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
Can simply slipping into "bad" habits, or away from church-going and prayer habits, create and continue the loss of faith?
How important is discipline?
I think going away from habits like these can certainly contribute to a loss of belief and/or faith (if you want to distinguish the two, which I think I do). For me personally I don't think that's a contributory factor. I still attend church every Sunday, home group once a fortnight, a prayer group once a week and a lot of my reading is spiritually themed. My personal prayer life has never been particularly disciplined and because I'm changing my ideas about prayer I find it harder to do. As I said on the Anxiety thread, I'm much better at reading about prayer and meditation than I am at doing it. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
One discipline I have lost is regular Bible reading, but this is... not exactly deliberate... but I find the Bible scary. My reading of it has led me down paths I now regard as questionable and while several people have recommended reading it "through a different lens" (such as the unconditional, universal love of God) when I read those familiar phrases again my mind falls back into the old patterns.
Probably TMI. Sorry. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
See, liberalism theology-wise (although there are far more liberal Christians than me) makes perfect sense to me intellectually, so that is why I am a liberal Christian. But I don't feel wholly comfortable with it. I naturally go for more black and white standpoints. I am an INFJ and wonder if that has an impact? I tend to need a 'cause' to be very definite about.
Your 'J' (like mine) wants closure. But your 'F' and 'N' (also like mine!) wants to explore more.
So you/we are caught in a tension between parts of our personality.
But the tension is creative and worth bearing with it - a small cross compared to what some people have to bear - because it is life giving to others in the long run.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Something there reminded me about the big Hindu temple at Chidambaram where, in the Sanctum Sanctorum there are two chambers, one contains an image of Lord Siva as Nataraja dancing creation into being and the other is equally revered AND completely empty as God can only be known in emptiness and cannot be defined by any human image.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
Something there reminded me about the big Hindu temple at Chidambaram where, in the Sanctum Sanctorum there are two chambers, one contains an image of Lord Siva as Nataraja dancing creation into being and the other is equally revered AND completely empty as God can only be known in emptiness and cannot be defined by any human image.
I like that very much, WW. Thank you.
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
Cara posted
quote:
I wonder, though, how much of our doubting and loss of faith is due to our simply straying away from what feeds us? and
Can simply slipping into "bad" habits, or away from church-going and prayer habits, create and continue the loss of faith?
No, Cara, I don't think my loss of faith and my doubts spring from 'bad habits'. This was hinted at to me at a Home Group meeting I went to, when I was asked why I read Scientific magazines if they made me doubt. Why not read the Bible?
Answer, because the Bible is not a scientific magazine, with all the latest news and discoveries. Nor do I want to live in a "Christian Bubble" and just meet with other Christians, talk with other Christians and reading Christian books. I live in a multiracial, multi-ethnic, technological world, and I don't want to cut myself off from any of it.
And I don't think Satan will wait for me to say "I wonder......" and jump in, leading me astray and filling my head with "non-Christian thoughts"
And if my faith can't stand up to living in such a world, then what is its integrity and value?
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
Something there reminded me about the big Hindu temple at Chidambaram where, in the Sanctum Sanctorum there are two chambers, one contains an image of Lord Siva as Nataraja dancing creation into being and the other is equally revered AND completely empty as God can only be known in emptiness and cannot be defined by any human image.
I like that. There seems to be both everything, and perfect emptiness. Or as some Buddhists say, this is empty of all characteristics. Yet the characteristics are also part of reality, as they come into being. It's a bit like the tide coming in and out, or a pair of bellows. In and out.
I think in the gospel of Thomas there is the saying, 'I am he who exists from the undivided', yet the undivided is also divided into fragments, each one of which contains the whole.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Cara posted
quote:
I wonder, though, how much of our doubting and loss of faith is due to our simply straying away from what feeds us? and
Can simply slipping into "bad" habits, or away from church-going and prayer habits, create and continue the loss of faith?
No, Cara, I don't think my loss of faith and my doubts spring from 'bad habits'. This was hinted at to me at a Home Group meeting I went to, when I was asked why I read Scientific magazines if they made me doubt. Why not read the Bible?
Answer, because the Bible is not a scientific magazine, with all the latest news and discoveries. Nor do I want to live in a "Christian Bubble" and just meet with other Christians, talk with other Christians and reading Christian books. I live in a multiracial, multi-ethnic, technological world, and I don't want to cut myself off from any of it.
And I don't think Satan will wait for me to say "I wonder......" and jump in, leading me astray and filling my head with "non-Christian thoughts"
And if my faith can't stand up to living in such a world, then what is its integrity and value?
Interesting, Nicodemia; but I agree with you (and not with your Home Group people); I don't think there's anything wrong with, eg, scientific magazines, and I absolutely think, as you do, that we should engage with our multi-faith, etc, world.
Perhaps I wasn't clear--when I said bad habits, I meant habits of omission. (And "bad" was in quotation marks). I was thinking rather of how I get lazy about doing things I know would feed me in some important way--exercise, churchgoing. How I just sort of ....get out of the habit.
Interesting that after I wrote this, Ingo posted-- on the thread about when one should just give up even calling oneself a Christian--about the importance of discipline in the midst of aridity.
You might think that it's my Catholic background that makes me bring up this discipline angle, but actually it's my life experience in the areas I've mentioned--exercise etc--where I see how easy it is to actually forget about the real benefits one received from certain activities.
Quetzalcoatl--very interesting about the letting go of all those things...and the gospel of Thomas quote in your latest post, following on from what WW said...
Jade Constable, is INFJ from the Enneagram? Can you remind me what these initials stand for?
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Pondering.
Posts: 898 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
INFJ is a Myers-Briggs Type Indicator type - an Enneagram is a different personality test (although fwiw I am 6 or The Loyalist). The initials stand for Introverted, iNtuition, Feeling, Judging. The opposite letters are Extraverted, Sensing, Thinking, Percieving.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Widely held by professionals in the field as being at best a tool for telling you back what your answers to the questions were.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
I wonder, though, how much of our doubting and loss of faith is due to our simply straying away from what feeds us?
I appreciate this insight very much, Cara. It is easy to slide away when you are not paying attention and begin readjusting expectations and changing standards. Staying -- with thoughtfulness, caring, and prayer -- probably does reinforce the aspirations that brought us to church in the first place.
quote:
Wow, this is amazing, I feel so much better, how did I forget all about this?
I've known this feeling, though possibly with a "hmmm" rather than a "wow." Same feeling, I think, operating on a different personality. When I hear or see or experience something extraordinary, it's useful to recall: "I'm so lucky to be here. I might have missed this."
Another thought I ought to keep in mind right now is something I heard at a 12-Step Meeting. A woman stormed out of a meeting, visibly upset. When asked what was troubling her, she responded: "I didn't get anything out of this meeting." The response was: "But what did you bring to the meeting?"
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
Thanks Jade, of course--Myers-Briggs, not Enneagram; I knew that really!
But didn't recall what the letters stood for.
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Pondering.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
Another thought I ought to keep in mind right now is something I heard at a 12-Step Meeting. A woman stormed out of a meeting, visibly upset. When asked what was troubling her, she responded: "I didn't get anything out of this meeting." The response was: "But what did you bring to the meeting?"
What does it mean when people ask that sort of question? I've never been able to make sense of it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
Another thought I ought to keep in mind right now is something I heard at a 12-Step Meeting. A woman stormed out of a meeting, visibly upset. When asked what was troubling her, she responded: "I didn't get anything out of this meeting." The response was: "But what did you bring to the meeting?"
What does it mean when people ask that sort of question? I've never been able to make sense of it.
It seems to me to be tied in with Western notions of productivity, performance and profit. That is, there is spiritual exertion and spiritual goals.
I guess this is fine for some people, but it ignores the contemplative aspect of religion; it's a bit like the opposition of being to doing. Horses for courses, I suppose.
I also think some people don't have a lot to give, and not a lot to produce or perform. What happens to them?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
To me it is about the difference between coming to a situation, using a 12-Step meeting as an example, wanting to be fixed and others coming to learn things that will help them to fix themselves. The first ones are the types who will go away unsatisfied as they are not willing to put in the work whereas the second is there to take tools from the meeting to help them in their self-driven change process.
I'm not sure I've put that as well as I could but it's late and way past my bedtime.
eta: ...or it is like the first is saying "Carry me on this path!" and the second is saying "Can we walk this path together so we can help one another if we stumble?"
[ 24. January 2014, 14:59: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
To me it is about the difference between coming to a situation, using a 12-Step meeting as an example, wanting to be fixed and others coming to learn things that will help them to fix themselves. The first ones are the types who will go away unsatisfied as they are not willing to put in the work whereas the second is there to take tools from the meeting to help them in their self-driven change process.
I'm not sure I've put that as well as I could but it's late and way past my bedtime.
It's a fair point, but it's not as black and white as that. I remember people who were just battered and bruised, and just wanted a place where they could sit and be, and not be intruded upon. (I'm not talking about churches here).
Eventually, they may be able to be more pro-active, but in my work, I was willing to allow them recovery time, which might last years.
To start hassling them with injunctions to get cracking, and show willing - would be ludicrous, and actually, damaging.
I don't see why churches, or Christians in general, should be any less sympathetic. I suppose you might end up with a room full of walking wounded - well, if that irks, take up coaching Olympic athletes!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Starbug
Shipmate
# 15917
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Posted
When I first became a Christian, I was very battered and bruised as I came from an extremely disfunctional family. One day, I poured out my feelings to an older couple at my church, whom I admired. Their response was to tell me I was thinking of myself too much and I should go out and help others, which stip me being so self-centered. (I'm paraphrasing - they didn't actually say it like that, but that was the gist of it.)
I was already feeling vulnerable and empty. I joined the St John Ambulance as a way of serving the community and to stop focusing on myself, but found that I just felt even more vulnerable and empty, but wearing a smart uniform. Looking back now, I can see that their advice was completely wrong and, in fact, it caused me a lot of resentment. After all, why did the people I was serving as a volunteer deserve extra help when I couldn't have any?
Sometimes, people can't bring anything to the party becuase they are too broken. They need to be cared for, like Elijah in the wilderness, before they can start to care for others.
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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor
Posts: 1189 | From: West of the New Forest | Registered: Sep 2010
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Fair points from both quetzalcoatl and Starbug.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Great post, Starbug. That injunction to stop thinking about yourself makes me grind my teeth. Some people have nobody else to think about them - would you take that away as well? I suppose it's folk psychology - also cruel and inane.
Sometimes it is true - there are people who are over-full of themselves, but there are also people who are empty. There is no one-size recipe.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
I have a friend to whom quetzacoatl's point applies very much. To all external appearances, he is very successful, but I have an ongoing suspicion, fuelled by my many conversations with him, that he is emotionally and spiritually profoundly bruised, in a way that he finds it almost impossible to do any more than report on; healing seems to be beyond the realm of possibility because he won't get inside his own feelings.
As a result, he remains very much an attender at church rather than a core member of the congregation, in a way that infuriates some of the more "enthusiastic" members of the congregation, who see him as an able-bodied person who refuses to pull his weight. My fear is that this may drive him away entirely, because he isn't being allowed simply to sit with his own bruisedness without having to account for it and indeed almost brandish it to get the activists to go away and give him the space he needs but finds it hard to ask for.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
FooloftheShip
Your word 'infuriates' caught my eye, and it rings true to me. It actually makes me suspect the activists, if they are so caught up in someone else's issues, and want to demand that they act like them. How come? Intense heavy brooding psychoanalytic thoughts come to mind, but I will not speak them.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
FooloftheShip
Your word 'infuriates' caught my eye, and it rings true to me. It actually makes me suspect the activists, if they are so caught up in someone else's issues, and want to demand that they act like them. How come? Intense heavy brooding psychoanalytic thoughts come to mind, but I will not speak them.
Amen on all fronts. Here's a question for you: does all activism fundamentally spring from neurosis?
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
FooloftheShip
Your word 'infuriates' caught my eye, and it rings true to me. It actually makes me suspect the activists, if they are so caught up in someone else's issues, and want to demand that they act like them. How come? Intense heavy brooding psychoanalytic thoughts come to mind, but I will not speak them.
Amen on all fronts. Here's a question for you: does all activism fundamentally spring from neurosis?
I don't think so. I've met plenty of genuine extroverts, who just like to be busy, and I don't think they are hiding some terrible trauma.
But you do get the neurotic activists, definitely, who can't tolerate non-activism. In fact, maybe this is a criterion that one could use - one's tolerance of difference. If you are an extrovert, how is your tolerance of the introvert?
But it's very very messy, lots of complications and contradictions. For example, a lot of actors seem to be introverts really, and you find introverts raising hell at parties.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Great post, Starbug. That injunction to stop thinking about yourself makes me grind my teeth. Some people have nobody else to think about them - would you take that away as well? I suppose it's folk psychology - also cruel and inane.
After all the commandment is to love your neighbour as yourself, not more than yourself, which implies that we must care for ourselves.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
I tried to change "must" to "should" but am having network problems here so could not do it in time...
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Great post, Starbug. That injunction to stop thinking about yourself makes me grind my teeth. Some people have nobody else to think about them - would you take that away as well? I suppose it's folk psychology - also cruel and inane.
After all the commandment is to love your neighbour as yourself, not more than yourself, which implies that we must care for ourselves.
Absolutely. There's a well-known process whereby people who were once impervious to others' suffering, discover their own, and once they have made that breakthrough, which may be long and painful, they tend to be more open to others. So if someone has a wall up about their own pain, they tend to wall off others. It's rather obvious really.
Simone Weil: 'the false god turns suffering into violence; the true god turns violence into suffering'.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
I somehow missed this earlier:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
Yes I'm aware that in some ways I've made a rod for my own back in going Evo. But I can't stress enough how scary it was going back to church and familiarity was a big plus. Also, even though it can be agenda-laden, people willing to be friendly and talk to me. And I am a bit of an odd fish now that I don't fit a lot of evangelical doctrine I still tend toward charismatic in my worship style. Tongues is a large part of my personal prayer life.
You could have gone back to Methodism - that's not very scary!
Well, I hadn't really been a Methodist for a long time, even when I was still going to church. Also I discovered when I left home at 18 that Methodism in general is a lot more MOTR and less evangelical than I was used to. Which actually could be a good thing but it's not the same thing I grew up with.
(Actually the changes in my parents' church are interesting on that score. I'm not sure the thing I grew up with even exists where I grew up any more! But that's a whole other thread probably)
But I did try a Methodist church and it was OK. It wasn't scary but I was still scared, that's my issue. It was quite small - although on the day I went there was a joint service with an Anglican church and half of them were at that. Apart from the preacher I was the only white person there. I'd love to say that didn't make a difference but it did a little bit. But it was friendly without being too pushy and I liked that I knew most of the hymns!
quote:
Your interesting response has highlighted the fact that there are different kinds of doubting, though. For someone like me, spiritual silence is a difficulty. Yet you're still able to pray in tongues even though you're experiencing doubt. Speaking only for myself, if I had such spiritual connections with God I might pay less heed to my doubts....
I think that's where I was at when I was praying on my own all those months. Speaking in tongues is just something I can sort of do - which in itself makes some people sceptical - so it doesn't necessarily make me feel closer to God so much as it makes me feel like I'm praying without having to think up words. My mind is often muddled or I lose track.
quote:
Would you say that your doubts spring from a tension between your heart and your head? Is your doubt directed towards particular doctrinal positions rather than towards God's presence in your life?
I think my doubts have started coming to the fore since I joined a house group. I thought this would be good way to get to know people better and get a bit more involved. However we've mainly been a bible study group so far and listening to people talk about how they read the bible is really revealing. There's like this base level of assumptions that I realise I no longer share and that I'm not sure they're even aware of. And because I'm there primarily to become more involved, be part of something rather than question everything I don't bring it up a lot because otherwise I'd sidetrack every discussion.
So I think it is particular doctrinal positions. I also think my experience of God in my life is based a lot on wanting to believe there's a larger force for good in the universe and acting on that. So I choose to believe God exists and that he is good and I pray and worship. That helps me but I'm not sure it leads necessarily to accepting the Bible as inerrant or other faiths as wrong.
quote:
I hope you don't mind me asking these questions, but your experience is in some ways encouraging for me, although I know it must be hard for you.
Not at all. I hope you don't mind the long-winded answers. It's nice to be able to share this stuff. I can only let it out in little bits at church because I worry about overwhelming the conversation.
Posts: 3690 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Late Paul
I see. Well, perhaps if you bide your time for a while and build up your Bible knowledge you could request to be given your own house group to run. Then you could provide a little more openness.
Perhaps house groups and their leaders are tightly controlled, but have you thought of setting up an optional group? I've often dreamed of starting a church reading group, where people would explore religious and non-religious material, fiction and otherwise, from a broadly Christian perspective. I think people would feel able to be a bit more honest in such an environment, whereas Bible studies can lead to people tip-toeing around their doubts and concerns.
If you don't think there'd be much interest in your church alone, perhaps you could do something ecumenically? It might take a while to build up some ecumenical connections first, but most churches want to pay lip service to ecumenicalism these days, so it's hard to see how your church could object to the idea in theory. Again, the fact that there would be different kinds of Christians meeting together should discourage participants from being too dogmatic.
However, I know you're new to your church and you don't want to draw attention to yourself, so perhaps this is something to consider in the long term.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The church here has a spiritual book club. It doesn't just read Christian books, but Jewish and other books dealing with spirituality and ethics have been discussed. I did it for a bit, but drifted out. There's a book to read every 4-6 weeks and I did read some interesting books as a result.
quetzalcoatl has said something that's twanged a chord with me - the challenge of doing nothing in churches. Where do you go to recharge and just be? One of the things I said as I walked away was that there was nothing for me unless I organised and ran it.
Some of that is being excluded from some groups, I'm single, so not a part of the married couples group, not retired, so not part of that group, child grown up, so no longer part of the families group.
Some is that much of what is run is by evangelical people, who actually don't want me there as I'm not on message. Having been laughed out of one Bible study because I brought along a NJB not a NIV Bible, and persuaded to go to others to express alternative views, I find those groups difficult. I grind my teeth at the way prayers are phrased as demands to God to do things on their terms, which makes it sound to me as if they have their own personal god in their pockets. I think prayer is about listening to God and aligning your will with his.
I also can't work out a way to deal with the literal interpretation of the Bible and YECcie-ism - arguing is pointless, it just makes the whole thing unpleasant, sitting still and seeming to agree isn't particularly fun either.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Curiosity killed.....
I'm glad to hear that you know of a successful church reading group and that it doesn't just exist in my mind!
It makes sense to leave a church that's not really aimed at someone like you and isn't congenial. Anyway, living in London there must be lots of choice? When I lived in London in the 90s I worshipped at a very central Methodist church, racially mixed, theologically tolerant, and I was young enough at the time to attend their 20s-30s evening group, which was in no way designed to promote a strict theological perspective.
Back in the West Midlands, I find there are liberal Catholic and Methodist Bible studies in the vicinity, so you don't always have to go evangelical for these things.
I did go through a brief phase of attending a new and fairly strict evangelical church many years ago (before going to London), but realised I just didn't fit in there or feel happy. The person who invited me was getting grumpy that I hadn't committed myself. I felt better for leaving.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I'm not in London - I work in London but it's an hour to two hours commute depending on where I'm going. Which means that weekends I get to the point where I don't want to spend another 3 or 4 hours on the tube, thank you very much.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
I think my doubts have started coming to the fore since I joined a house group. I thought this would be good way to get to know people better and get a bit more involved. However we've mainly been a bible study group so far and listening to people talk about how they read the bible is really revealing. There's like this base level of assumptions that I realise I no longer share and that I'm not sure they're even aware of. And because I'm there primarily to become more involved, be part of something rather than question everything I don't bring it up a lot because otherwise I'd sidetrack every discussion.
I find this thought-provoking as when Mr Nen and I came into membership of the evangelical Baptist church of which we're now a part I knew it was important to me to remain in the ecumenical home group I've belonged to for years. It's a place where we're all free to question and express what we're feeling and struggling with. Mr Nen and I went to one of the Baptist home groups together once and I just knew I would have to be continually on my guard there, or biting my tongue, or as you say sidetracking every discussion. It's easier to disagree with things in the services - people are less likely to notice. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I feel for you, Late Paul. It's a hard situation to be in when you're trying to be more involved.
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
I wonder, though, how much of our doubting and loss of faith is due to our simply straying away from what feeds us?
I appreciate this insight very much, Cara. It is easy to slide away when you are not paying attention and begin readjusting expectations and changing standards. Staying -- with thoughtfulness, caring, and prayer -- probably does reinforce the aspirations that brought us to church in the first place.
quote:
Wow, this is amazing, I feel so much better, how did I forget all about this?
I've known this feeling, though possibly with a "hmmm" rather than a "wow." Same feeling, I think, operating on a different personality. When I hear or see or experience something extraordinary, it's useful to recall: "I'm so lucky to be here. I might have missed this."
Another thought I ought to keep in mind right now is something I heard at a 12-Step Meeting. A woman stormed out of a meeting, visibly upset. When asked what was troubling her, she responded: "I didn't get anything out of this meeting." The response was: "But what did you bring to the meeting?"
Roybart--I missed this earlier. Glad you saw what I was trying to say.
Ironically, this morning I thought I really ought to practise what I preached and get myself back to church, spent too long checking that the church I thought I wanted to go to was still the most congenial of the nearby choices (am back in a town I know well but haven't lived in full-time as an Anglican)...it was, but of course it has Communion at 10 am, rather than the preferable (to me!) 10:30, and I didn't get my act together in time....
so here I am, sort-of-at-church on the Ship!
I agree with quetzalcoatl and others who point out that sometimes people are so battered and bruised, they come to church (or to a 12-step meeting) looking only for help and refuge--unable to bring anything specific or to give anything back--yet.
On the other hand, the words "what did you bring to this meeting?" do offer food for thought--however battered and bruised, one can at least bring a desire to be helped and an openness to whatever way that might happen...which would mean not being angry, and not demanding of a particular kind of help...
Re more recent posts, I really love the idea of a spiritual reading group--I once led a spiritual reading evening in my previous church, and it was very well received, I think this would be such an excellent thing to have regularly.
Also really like the idea of an ecumenical home group.
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Pondering.
Posts: 898 | Registered: Feb 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I don't see what's wrong with being angry. I've known tons of people who were angry with God or the church. Are they to be barred from attending?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I'm not in London - I work in London but it's an hour to two hours commute depending on where I'm going. Which means that weekends I get to the point where I don't want to spend another 3 or 4 hours on the tube, thank you very much.
Ah, my geographical awareness is at fault!
I also tend to assume that everyone has some sort of doubt-friendly MOTR or low-key liberal Catholic type of church in their vicinity, but the Ship teaches me often that this isn't true. In any case, these types of churches do present challenges of their own. I might start a thread about this, probably in Purgatory.
[ 26. January 2014, 14:27: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't see what's wrong with being angry. I've known tons of people who were angry with God or the church. Are they to be barred from attending?
Agree. The phrase still sounds like victim blaming and shooting the wounded to me.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I've got no problem with people deciding to attend Church worship to cure themselves of anger . That's much the reason why I took it up .
Not sure I'm entirely cured though
What causes me to doubt the benefits of Church attendance is when it seems to give rise to anger in some folks .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
Extremely belatedly, having read this thread veeery sloowly over many weeks, I'd like to add my thanks to DT for starting it, and for everyone's thoughtful and honest contributions.
My own process of doubt has been going on for about 6 years now. I did think I was coming back to faith, but I think I'm on my way out now. And it wasn't either of the Satan's fork options (an excellent post & blog, thank you Gumby, I'm going to pass those on in future) it began with the nagging feeling that, well, this is just all a bit daft, really. I can relate very well to the idea of opitical illusion, in fact at the moment I find that helpful as I'm not thinking too much about it.
I find the endless worrying (as in dog worrying at bone) frustrating - sitting in church thinking "Well, I'm not sure about that bit. But does that mean I don't believe this bit either? Ah. Wonder if that means I'm still a Christian then? What about that bit? Does it matter if I believe it or not? And Gosh that's an awful song. Whose idea was that?" - it goes on and on and round and round, and I do wish it would stop.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
All I really have is too much emotional capital sunk into the faith to easily give it up, and a nagging fear of doing so unless and until I'm absolutely sure it really is irrational bullshit. And a small quiet hope, born of desperation.
This too. I have practical investment too (er, if that's a phrase) - I'm playing as part of a worship group tomorrow and, following what you were saying about the Bible, there's a song about God being "Mighty to save". Well. I can't feel that He is any more. There's too much evidence to the contrary. Too much suffering.
And is this God to be worshipped, really? If He is loving and yet unable to save, isn't pity more appropriate?
<sigh>
I'm sorry. I feel a lot like a petulant teenager.
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
I don't think you sound at all petulant - I think it is very healthy to continue to question as we get older - how else can we grow?
I respect people with a deep and abiding faith BUT I think that for some of us it is more of a fight - and really that is right and as it should be.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
I find the endless worrying (as in dog worrying at bone) frustrating - sitting in church thinking "Well, I'm not sure about that bit. But does that mean I don't believe this bit either? Ah. Wonder if that means I'm still a Christian then? What about that bit? Does it matter if I believe it or not? And Gosh that's an awful song. Whose idea was that?" - it goes on and on and round and round, and I do wish it would stop.
[...] I have practical investment too (er, if that's a phrase) - I'm playing as part of a worship group tomorrow and, following what you were saying about the Bible, there's a song about God being "Mighty to save". Well. I can't feel that He is any more. There's too much evidence to the contrary. Too much suffering.
And is this God to be worshipped, really? If He is loving and yet unable to save, isn't pity more appropriate?
If I may say so, you sound like another non-evangelical in an evangelical church. Maybe low-key MOTR Anglicanism would be more helpful, because it doesn't really insist on the need to understand, believe or accept everything.
As for suffering in a supposedly God-made world, I can only speak for myself, but it keeps me hanging on when I observe that those who turn to atheism or theophobia as a consequence are rarely the world's greatest sufferers themselves. Do the hurting people of Syria, Haiti, Ukraine or the Central African Republic want us to abandon God on their behalf? Generally speaking, I doubt it. Should I ever walk away from God it won't be because I understand the theological implications of other people's suffering better than they do. My reasons would be much more mundane, I think. Or just more selfish. That's just me, though.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
Thank you both. SV2- I think you're right about my church. But (as I was pondering yesterday) this is my church, my family, it's where my friends are and for all the occasional irritation I must cause them they seem happy enough to put up with me. If it were just me, and/or if I wasn't involved in "useful" things, I would probably be off somewhere else.
Good point regarding suffering too.
WW, I hadn't thought in terms of a fight. That's a good way of putting it. The deep & abiding faith point is important - I think in my current discomfort / irritation with faith I (mis)characterise other people's faith as shouty and perhaps shallow, and that's doing most of them a great disservice.
I meant to add also that our church has had a "theology book group" - for want of a better title. I've enjoyed discussing the issues raised - the woolly liberal in me likes pontificating without having to commit, perhaps. We've studied Tom Wright's "Surprised by hope" which irritated me. Now we're on to Rowan Williams' "Resurrection" which I'm enjoying much more.
As always I find the mighty Nick Cave puts things better than I ever could:
Well, most of all nothing much ever really happens
And God rides high up in the ordinary sky
Until we find ourselves at our most distracted
And the miracle that was promised creeps quietly by
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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