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Source: (consider it) Thread: Doubting
Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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Well, why not try it?

One thing I say constantly: the world is not about us. I live with someone whose work is in natural disasters. When destructive earthquakes happen, I hear those agonising about how a good God can let such things happen. But I glimpse too the science that has discovered what an extraordinary, self-regulating planetary mechanism tectonic plate movements are.

We're passengers. May as well enjoy the ride. There are no brakes, no safety bars and you crash sooner or later.

All of which I find easier to live with than trying to decode or construct my life as some sort of moral gym.

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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

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Charlie-in-the-box

I'm very sorry to hear about your son. Very many people's faith would be utterly knocked sideways over something like that.

I read somewhere that Americans are increasingly likely to change their religious allegiances a few times over a lifetime, although you've surely switched more than most. People from the Caribbean (where my relatives are from) are known for this as well. The wider British population are less likely to do so on the whole, even though many religious movements were founded here.

I've found a website that compares the UK and USA in this regard:

http://old.richarddawkins.net/articles/501027-religion-switching-in-the-uk-and-usa

There's been some interest in converts to Islam. I live in a British city with a strong Muslim presence, and there are probably already more practising Muslims than Christians, thanks to immigration and larger birth rates. You do notice some who have probably converted or who are 2nd generation Muslims. I've known a few converts to Islam.

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21578099-british-strand-islam-emerging-more-people-become-converts-changing-my-religion

As I walk along and see Muslims around me I often wonder what it would be like to be a Muslim.

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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Thanks for starting this thread. And my sympathies Charlie.

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Did I mention that the Bible is one of my biggest problems with Christianity? Far from finding insight in it, I more often find myself angered by its contents...[cut]

I wish I had some emotion reading the Bible [some Psalms excepted]...I find myself unmoved in any way when I force myself to read it. And promptly forget it.

I haven't darkened a church in months [save a Lessons and Carols service; the only joy I feel is some nice music or a bushwalk] and I really doubt whether I am any sort of Christian: or perhaps if I'm marked for damnation in this meaningless existence. I could blame anxiety, depression, bi-polar tendencies, but is it an excuse? As much as I want to throw it in, I cannot...a flame, somewhere, flickers. For how long God only knows.

[ 06. January 2014, 23:01: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

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The Great Gumby

Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
And yet, the weeping mothers of dead African babies don't themselves seem to lean towards agnosticism and atheism to the same extent as those of us in the West who watch their suffering from afar.

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I'm very sorry to hear about your son. Very many people's faith would be utterly knocked sideways over something like that.

Now, this is interesting. I've drawn out examples of two themes that are emerging in this thread - issues of feeling comfortable and of intense discomfort, both of which I've often heard "blamed" (if that's the right word) for loss of faith. That's also reflected in this thread, in its own way. I'm sure you can see the tension - I once called it Satan's Fork, in reference to Morton's Fork.

I don't think it's helpful to talk in these terms, not just because it implies that loss of faith is a bad thing (which begs the question, although I understand the reasons for it in this case), but also because it's clearly a whole lot more complicated than a simple cause and effect.

--------------------
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

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Bob Two-Owls
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# 9680

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I am culturally Christian and have been baptised and confirmed but I read the Bible from start to finish when I was 18 and that signalled the decline in my faith. I was appalled at the treatment of the Canaanites, the book of Job made me feel sick and if it were not for the Psalms, Proverbs and the New Testament I would have become an anti-Christian activist. But there is still a spark of hope when I read the nice bits of the New Testament

My participation in the Church was severely knocked at university by my friends who were badly treated in the Nine O'Clock service debacle. I also come from a family that is half Anglican, half Catholic so religion is the cause of most family arguments for me. Staying out of Christianity altogether was a way for me to avoid choosing a side and living in mild disapproval from both sides rather than outright enmity from one or the other. I found a certain sense of peace and belonging in Pagan Druidry but I still found that I was drawn to parts of Christianity and tended to shape the ultra-liberal practice of Druidry in monotheistic, culturally Christian ways.

I now live as an agnostic Christian, wanting to be convinced. I know that I really should buckle down to some theological study but I am too poor to start a formal course and too much of a mathematician to read books without numbers without some plan or someone to talk to. My local vicar was not very helpful when I asked her where to start. She was more used to someone asking whether God exists, rather than someone who is fairly sure that God does exist and doubts whether God is really good.

Not sure if any of that made sense, I think I have more doubt than I have the ability to express coherently.

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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
And yet, the weeping mothers of dead African babies don't themselves seem to lean towards agnosticism and atheism to the same extent as those of us in the West who watch their suffering from afar.

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I'm very sorry to hear about your son. Very many people's faith would be utterly knocked sideways over something like that.

Now, this is interesting. I've drawn out examples of two themes that are emerging in this thread - issues of feeling comfortable and of intense discomfort, both of which I've often heard "blamed" (if that's the right word) for loss of faith. That's also reflected in this thread, in its own way. I'm sure you can see the tension - I once called it Satan's Fork, in reference to Morton's Fork.

I don't think it's helpful to talk in these terms, not just because it implies that loss of faith is a bad thing (which begs the question, although I understand the reasons for it in this case), but also because it's clearly a whole lot more complicated than a simple cause and effect.

Yes, I can see why you've highlighted these two parts of my post! They seem to be contradictory, don't they?

I did consider leaving a simple 'I'm sorry about your son', but felt that more was required, especially since this is really a thread about how the hard knocks of life reduce our faith, not about how some people hold onto faith or even gain sustenance from it when such things happen. Yet the latter is also true.

I agree that the two themes you highlight both seem to be the causes of lost faith in various contexts, and that they represent a certain tension. The Bible itself suggests that wealth and poverty, success and failure, can lead us either away from or towards God. Christians in the West tend not to be the poorest people there, whereas on a global scale the most devout probably live in some of the poorest nations.....

An atheist and a Christian will probably see any decision that moves someone they know further away from a previously shared position as an unfortunate thing at the very least. That's fairly obvious. But we do have the right to disapprove of someone else's decisions, just as they have the right to disapprove of ours.

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Charlie-in-the-box
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# 17954

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Hi all,

For me, as a clergywoman, I was embarrassed, ashamed, and depressed that my faith "failed me" and I quit believing in God. How could someone who is supposed to share her faith with others and help them remain steadfast in the their trials, have her faith disintegrate? I always grew up expecting way too much out of myself and always saw myself as not good enough so I don't think I had a big issue with the crisis itself but the fact that I didn't want others to see it and have it cause them a faith crisis.

I didn't know where to go. I was a failure as a parent, my kid died at 16. I felt like I was always in the ring, being watched, as clergy often are, and I had been unhorsed and lost the game. There was nothing left for me to do but limp out of the ring/spotlight and sit in darkness trying to figure out why...why when others are carried and sustained by their faith did mine fail. It didn't just fail, it was annihilated. I have never been the same since.

[ 07. January 2014, 17:35: Message edited by: Charlie-in-the-box ]

--------------------
Charlie-in-the-box
http://rosarygirl1962.blogspot.com/

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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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Charlie-in-the-box

Your painful words remind me of a vicar in London whose daughter was killed in the London tube bombings of 2007:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/mar/07/religion.july7

She didn't lose her faith exactly, but felt she didn't have sufficient faith to be able to continue as a church minister.

I've never experienced anything as awful as this, but a distant relative of mine who is a Pentecostal minister lost a teenage son as a result of an accidental shooting.

[ 07. January 2014, 18:12: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Chocoholic
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# 4655

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I'm also struggling with the institution of the church. I've seen too much rubbish, too many people get damaged. I'm going, sort of, but am being rather commitment phobic. Part of me thinks I'm only denying myself the opportunity to benefit from what deeper involvement could offer, but another part, says no, don't do it!
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Charlie-in-the-box
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# 17954

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Wow Chocoholic,

You put what I feel in my current parish into words. I am struggling with beliefs/doctrine but I have held back at this parish, afraid of being hurt again. Thanks for what you said, I sure can relate.

--------------------
Charlie-in-the-box
http://rosarygirl1962.blogspot.com/

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Chocoholic
Shipmate
# 4655

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Oh gosh, I felt guilty posting that where I did given the struggles you have been having.

I don't know what the answer is. The trouble is I am so much more sensitive to things now too, small things seem more significant - I wonder if they are signs if something more fundamentally wrong. It so hard to trust, and churches aren't perfect, none of them are, it's just not knowing how bad - mildly annoying or full on damaging.
Even posting here is causing me anxiety.

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chive

Ship's nude
# 208

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I don't doubt particularly. I believe and assent intellectually to my faith and what the church teaches, I just can't be motivated to go there.

Church is a really big trigger for anxiety for me and the emotional effort of going to mass just seems enormous. Last night I was going to go to evening mass after I'd done something else and it was dark and raining and I was tired and I just thought 'fuck it.'

I'm finding saying 'fuck it' easier and easier in recent months. I almost feel semi detached from church. I used to go almost every day to mass and now it's maybe once a month or every three weeks. I do miss it a lot but apparently not enough to actually bother with it if that makes sense.

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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Charlie-in-the-box:
I was a failure as a parent, my kid died at 16.

Oh, Charlie, that's the saddest thing I think I've ever read here. I constantly feel like a failure as a parent, too, and I'll never reconcile myself to failing at what I consider my most important task at life. I don't have any big compensating reason for existing either. It's not like I'm a doctor who saves lives everyday. Being a mother was sort of my sole job.
-------------

Reading this thread makes me think maybe I'm just too glib about my faith. I also read the Bible straight through and while it didn't help my faith, I didn't lose it either. I simply think of the Old Testament as a history of man grappling with ethics and the concept of one God. The New Testament alone is my example and my guide as a Christian.

The suffering in the world doesn't really effect my faith either, because I've never imagined God as a hands-on manager who might overturn his natural laws to make people well or safe. I experience his help through my mind, helping me cope with whatever happens, finding a bit of forgiveness and peace while on earth and a promise of something better on the other side.

As I say, probably too glib.

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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I have certainly experienced a great relief in recent months, as I have largely given up on Christian ideas. I no longer have to struggle to work them out, or reconcile them with my own ideas or experiences of/about God. I feel happy to let these stand. They are neither right nor wrong.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Scarlet

Mellon Collie
# 1738

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
This doesn't sound like doubt to me, so much as a belief that Christianity is wrong in so many ways as to make any kind of formal adherence or participation inauthentic.

I suppose (British) Quakerism and/or Unitarianism would be the answer, if you were looking for some sort of communal attempt at spirituality, since they don't claim to offer a coherent system of belief that members have to buy into.

I guess that I really do not even want to associate myself any longer with any spiritual group, building, book or members!

Not only am I bitter towards all church entities, since I feel tricked and lied to (none of the promises from God they teach ever come true and the Bible itself is not true) nor is it possible to make the internal changes in my heart that are supposedly required in order to "be Christian".

I still have a glimmer of faith that "God" exists in some place (heaven, the clouds, inside my spirit, who knows?) as some sort of etheral energy or essence who created me as someone defective, unchosen and unable to be whatever He requires to me saved. That's it for my belief.

I am furious that He forced me be born and has me trapped here to suffer until He decides I can stop breathing. And if there is a Hell, I will assuredly be put there. Which cannot be worse that the hell here on earth.

--------------------
They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer

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Scarlet

Mellon Collie
# 1738

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quote:
Originally posted by Scarlet:
I still have a glimmer of faith that "God" exists in some place (heaven, the clouds, inside my spirit, who knows?) as some sort of ethereal energy or essence who created me as someone defective, unchosen and unable to be whatever He requires of me to me saved. That's it for my belief.

I really botched up this sentence. Here is an edited version...

--------------------
They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer

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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Reading this thread makes me think maybe I'm just too glib about my faith.

I feel the same - but am slightly reassured to know that I am a lot less glib than I was 5 years ago.

[Votive]

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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.

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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756

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It is really comforting to find that I am in the good company of fellow Shippies!

No answers to my problem, though didn't expect that, but I think maybe we just have to keep going from where we are now, and learn to live with doubts and paradoxes.

I think that is what I think! [Confused]

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the famous rachel
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# 1258

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quote:
Originally posted by Scarlet:


I still have a glimmer of faith that "God" exists in some place (heaven, the clouds, inside my spirit, who knows?) as some sort of ethereal energy or essence who created me as someone defective, unchosen and unable to be whatever He requires of me to me saved. That's it for my belief.

I am furious that He forced me be born and has me trapped here to suffer until He decides I can stop breathing. And if there is a Hell, I will assuredly be put there. Which cannot be worse that the hell here on earth.


Oh Scarlet! I feel for you. This is exactly where my doubts arise from, although so much more passionately expressed, because you are suffering in ways that I am not.

I am not willing to worship a God who creates me, declares me defective and then sends me off for eternal punishment unless I can force my brain (which he created) to believe things which it naturally rebels against as offending both my ideas of logic and of justice.

The thing that really makes me mad is when some happy "convinced" Christian tells me belief is easy. The sermon which drove me away from church (delivered by a fairly eminent and well-known evangelical preacher) said that believing in God is easy, because we find it easy to believe that when we buy a tin of beans there will actually be beans inside and not cockroaches or something, and belief in God is no different!

Best wishes,

Rachel.

--------------------
A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by the famous rachel:


I am not willing to worship a God who creates me, declares me defective and then sends me off for eternal punishment unless I can force my brain (which he created) to believe things which it naturally rebels against as offending both my ideas of logic and of justice.

I am, if they convince me that this God exists, but only because I'm a collossal moral coward.

[ 09. January 2014, 13:00: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Something that happened to me over the past few years is that I grew to be suspicious of notions of truth. I couldn't see how any supernatural notion could be said to be true, except as a guess. Well, guessing is perfectly fine, except I suppose that you are faced with the problem of distinguishing between different guesses! For example, my wife is a sort of gnostic New Age general all-round pagan - that's her guess.

But truth has been replaced for me by just being useful. I still find some Christian symbols and rituals useful, or they work for me in certain ways, or they fit my experience. So I've stopped worrying about whether the story is 'true'. Hell-bound, me hearties!

[ 09. January 2014, 15:10: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
...I still find some Christian symbols and rituals useful, or they work for me in certain ways, or they fit my experience. So I've stopped worrying about whether the story is 'true'. Hell-bound, me hearties!

This is true for me, too - which is possibly why I still find it useful to go to Catholic Mass on a fairly regular basis. I am not a Catholic, the service is in a language I don't understand but I still find sitting there [I don't do the sit, stand, kneel bit] as part of a worshipping community a good discipline. I don't believe what [some of] the people around me seem to believe but that matters not a hoot. Some of the people, like Himself and Herself] are actually Hindu but they are welcomed just as I am.

--------------------
I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Holy Smoke
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# 14866

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I have certainly experienced a great relief in recent months, as I have largely given up on Christian ideas. I no longer have to struggle to work them out, or reconcile them with my own ideas or experiences of/about God. I feel happy to let these stand. They are neither right nor wrong.

I quite enjoy reading and thinking about theology, but that has little bearing on whether or not I attend services, which is largely down to what I experience, and whether attending has a positive effect on how I live. But the main thing in my average city-centre church is to avoid the after-service coffee, and sit as far to the side/back as possible.

[Devil]

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Piglet
Islander
# 11803

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As someone whose faith-perspective (if that's the right expression - perhaps worship-perspective would be better) is middle-to-high Anglican (with an emphasis on music and liturgy) I can understand WW and Quetzalcoatl's point.

Although I'm usually an active participant in worship (singing in the choir and occasionally reading a lesson), I can be just as uplifted by going to Choral Evensong at a cathedral or college chapel and allowing beautifully-performed music to inspire me.

I imagine that there must be a God to have inspired people to write such wonderful music, and then I'm reminded that some of the best composers of church music (Howells and Vaughan Williams among quite a few others) were either atheists or agnostics.

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427

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I went on a retreat day this week and was thinking a lot about this thread and the people posting here. I was also revisiting the notes I'd made on previous retreats and was reminded of one session last year when the retreat leader was talking about those who feel they have lost their faith. She said what we actually lose is our beliefs - the things we have been told we must believe - but faith is something different, and is about relationship. This, when Jesus said, "O ye of little faith" he was not being accusatory, it was an invitation to come closer into relationship.

I don't pretend to understand this but it has given me some food for thought.

--------------------
They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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Thanks for that Nenya - I'll think about that one.

--------------------
I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
I went on a retreat day this week and was thinking a lot about this thread and the people posting here. I was also revisiting the notes I'd made on previous retreats and was reminded of one session last year when the retreat leader was talking about those who feel they have lost their faith. She said what we actually lose is our beliefs - the things we have been told we must believe - but faith is something different, and is about relationship. This, when Jesus said, "O ye of little faith" he was not being accusatory, it was an invitation to come closer into relationship.

I don't pretend to understand this but it has given me some food for thought.

Yes, I get that. As I got older, beliefs began to seem superfluous, and in a way, too abstract. Life is pulsating away, beyond my beliefs - the snowdrops are just starting to peep out now.

But this doesn't rule out God or Christ.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
This is true for me, too - which is possibly why I still find it useful to go to Catholic Mass on a fairly regular basis. I am not a Catholic, the service is in a language I don't understand but I still find sitting there [I don't do the sit, stand, kneel bit] as part of a worshipping community a good discipline. I don't believe what [some of] the people around me seem to believe but that matters not a hoot. Some of the people, like Himself and Herself] are actually Hindu but they are welcomed just as I am.

I do the same Catholic visits, myself. I like the solemn dance of it all and the thought that fellow Christians have been doing the same rituals for years. If our level of certainty varies a great deal then that's fine, too. We showed up, we're seeking something together.
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431

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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
<snip>

Hi Ian,
You've been missed. Would you PM/email/call/drop me a line?
AP.

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Put not your trust in princes.

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mrs whibley
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quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
I went on a retreat day this week and was thinking a lot about this thread and the people posting here. I was also revisiting the notes I'd made on previous retreats and was reminded of one session last year when the retreat leader was talking about those who feel they have lost their faith. She said what we actually lose is our beliefs - the things we have been told we must believe - but faith is something different, and is about relationship. This, when Jesus said, "O ye of little faith" he was not being accusatory, it was an invitation to come closer into relationship.

I don't pretend to understand this but it has given me some food for thought.

That's very helpful, thank you. My beliefs (or possibly, yes, all those things I had been told I believed) seem to be pouring away like water down a plughole at the moment, and I'm clutching at my faith trying not to let it go with them.

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I long for a faith that is gloriously treacherous - Mike Yaconelli

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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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I believe in God, but I think the church (in general) has got a lot of it wrong, or out of balance, or something.

I learn a lot from reading in the "inspirational" spiritual but not specifically "Christian" genre. Wayne Dyer et al. They focus on how to live this life, not on who does or does not "get to heaven." (I doubt "heaven" is a place, more like an attitude or something.)

A lot of what Jesus taught was about how to live this life, and a lot of that is the opposite of what we are taught by society, but I don't hear churches countering it except superficially. "If someone steals from you, give him more." Yes, read in a lesson, but does anyone actually do it? Is there a church-full somewhere doing it?

Dyer et al emphasize forgiveness. Not "God forgives you," but "you need to forgive others, not because they deserve it but for your own mental and physical health." That's a life-changing message, I hear it far more emphasized outside than inside the churches. Just one example.

"When you dance, your purpose is not to get to a certain place on the floor. It's to enjoy each step along the way." (W Dyer) Yes.

Christianity is too often presented as SERIOUS! As if it's all about keeping an eye on whether your current words/actions are pleasing or annoying God; so it becomes rules, lots of rules, many of them obligations like "go to church every Sunday (whether or not you like it)" because that's how to make sure you get into heaven. Goal oriented and self-focused.

What if God is just looking for people to dance with?

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
...What if God is just looking for people to dance with?

This!

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Galloping Granny
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# 13814

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quote:
From my experience certainty and faith seem to be mutually exclusive.
This is an idea that I’ve recently welcomed: that faith is the opposite of certainty.

Often reading of Shipmates’ experiences I’ve been grateful that the churches = congregations that I’ve been part of have been loving communities who don’t listen to preached nonsense but care for one another and for the people beyond, neighbours over the fence or over the sea, and who don’t go in for back-biting or power struggles.
I’m sure everyone around me in church ‘believes’ something different, but they get on with the life before them and find a house group where their own thoughts can be shared – ours is working through the second series of Living the Questions, very daring for some but old hat for me (lots of Borg, Crossan and Spong).
God? Don’t say ‘He’. God is the Other, the great Mystery, not a micro-organiser or, for that matter, the macro-organiser, just the consciousness in creation from which love emanates.
If it’s my turn to lead intercessions, I don’t ask God to interfere; I ask, for instance, that in frightening situations there may be voices that speak comfort and peace; that for a dying friend there may be peace and hope; that world leaders may struggle to bring peace and understanding.
If I lead worship I study the lectionary passages, read what my respected scholars say about the topics, and share my insights, my comments being descriptive, not prescriptive. Most of traditional doctrine I understand to come from the understanding of scholars of far-off times, and that goes for the stories in the bible: people whose lives were in the power of kings who could reward or punish them with torture or death conceived of a god who was the same only a thousand times more powerful.
Salvation, for me, means that in adopting the life values of Jesus I’m saved from the kind of existence that gets its values from competition, self-interest, and materialism. I don’t expect a life after death, but who knows??? At my funeral they can sing Colin Gibson’s lovely hymn: ‘Where the road run out and the signposts end...’ Stories about Hell make no sense to me, but I think there are many people on earth who are living in hell, and the worst hell is for those who perpetrate evil.
If I have to say a creed I’ll opt for the UCC one: ‘We are not alone; we live in God’s world...’
Thanks to all who have shared their doubts and struggles with faith. May you and I all be blessed!

GG

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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

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Pre-cambrian
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# 2055

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quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
I went on a retreat day this week and was thinking a lot about this thread and the people posting here. I was also revisiting the notes I'd made on previous retreats and was reminded of one session last year when the retreat leader was talking about those who feel they have lost their faith. She said what we actually lose is our beliefs - the things we have been told we must believe - but faith is something different, and is about relationship. This, when Jesus said, "O ye of little faith" he was not being accusatory, it was an invitation to come closer into relationship.

Unless the retreat leader has been in this position herself I don't see how she can possibly state that it is beliefs not faith which is lost. And if one of the beliefs you have been told - and which you no longer accept - is the basic existence of god then a faith relationship is meaningless anyway. It sounds to me more of a comforting state of denial; if she can convince herself that people don't really lose their faith, but just rebel against orders, it is much less scary.

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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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Please remember that the purpose of this thread is support and expressions of experience and not debate or critiquing of those experiences.

Thanks.

WW - AS Host

--------------------
I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Huia
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# 3473

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GG I want that hymn too.

I found the value of Living the Questions for me was that it made sense of things that I already thought and gave me a way of expressing my thinking. I had often felt a bit intimidated by other people's certainties, while still not accepting them, now I feel much more comfortable with my lack of certainity.

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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the famous rachel
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# 1258

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by the famous rachel:


I am not willing to worship a God who creates me, declares me defective and then sends me off for eternal punishment unless I can force my brain (which he created) to believe things which it naturally rebels against as offending both my ideas of logic and of justice.

I am, if they convince me that this God exists, but only because I'm a collossal moral coward.
Really? Are you sure you want to hang out with that bastard for all eternity?

[Biased]

Rachel.

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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I am still absorbing a kind of gear change which has happened to me recently, without my really realizing it. A lot of stuff on this forum just seems like double dutch to me now. What on earth is it about? Talking about sin and salvation, and that Jesus will save me from my sin. I can't understand a word of that really, or rather, I have my own interpretation of it, which is quite idiosyncratic.

I think I always had my own version of Christian ideas and symbolism, and I sort of fitted it into the Christian mold, but suddenly, well not all that suddenly, it doesn't seem to fit, and the mold just seems absurd. Well, I will just have to monitor it, as I'm not in control of this process! I must say, it is a huge relief as well. I feel like a diver who has come up to the fresh air, and can breathe.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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It is a bit like that ancient Milarepa story about seeing an old man carrying a heavy load coming towards him and knowing the man could lead him towards enlightenment. When they were opposite one another he stopped him and said

"Excuse me, sir, but what is enlightenment?"

The old man stopped, put down his burden, straightened up and smiled.

Milarepa said "Yes, thank you, now I understand! But please, what is after enlightenment?"

The old man picked up his bundle, settled on his back and, still smiling, walked off.


The thing is that I rather suspect that the burden changes when it is on the ground.

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
A lot of stuff on this forum just seems like double dutch to me now. What on earth is it about? Talking about sin and salvation, and that Jesus will save me from my sin. I can't understand a word of that really, or rather, I have my own interpretation of it, which is quite idiosyncratic.

I think I always had my own version of Christian ideas and symbolism, and I sort of fitted it into the Christian mold, but suddenly, well not all that suddenly, it doesn't seem to fit, and the mold just seems absurd. Well, I will just have to monitor it, as I'm not in control of this process! I must say, it is a huge relief as well. I feel like a diver who has come up to the fresh air, and can breathe.

In what sense do you feel that the term 'Christian' is still relevant to you?
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Garasu
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Isn't being "Christian" about feeling oneself released to a world free from sin?

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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.

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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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I wouldn't put it quite like that myself; sin is still a reality in my own 'Christian' world. But I can see how the idea of Christ 'conquering' sin might be read by some as making the whole idea of sin irrelevant.
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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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Removing Hostly Quaker Hat from cupboard, dusting it off and putting it on

Please folks, if you want to discuss what are the requisites for being a Christian or other such concepts then Purgatory is the place to do it - such a thread there could produce some interesting debate. Meanwhile this is All Saints and the focus of this thread is Doubting and support and sharing for those who doubt.

Let's keep it that way.

Welease Woderwick
All Saints Host

Removing Hostly Quaker Hat and putting it back in the cupboard


--------------------
I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Galloping Granny
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Dear Quakerly Host
While I see that it is correct that a discussion on what constitutes a Christian is a Purgatory topic, is it not that shipmates are offering support to those whose doubts are within a specifically Christian context, and part of people's concerns is whether in spite of their doubts they still feel themselves to be Christians, or want to be part of the Christian faith?
For myself, I am still determinedly a follower of Jesus, however much of traditional dogma I've rejected. I think my doubts are directed at aspects of religious teaching, not at the existence of the 'God' whom I continually seek.
With respect

GG

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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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Thanks for that GG - I'll sort of reply here though I suppose we should do this in The Styx but for this brief exchange I can cope with it here.

I think my anxiety is this becoming an intellectual discussion on the nature of faith, which is what I am trying to avoid, for my sake as much as anything, as that belongs in Purg. I, speaking personally, don't see a problem in having parallel threads in the two places; indeed it may help some people. What I am concerned about is not alienating people from this thread by becoming too theoretical.

WW

--------------------
I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Raptor Eye
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I have opened a thread in Purgatory here.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Silver Swan
Apprentice
# 17957

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My problem with faith is one of constancy. When I wake up most mornings I am anxious, and afraid that I've failed or that some evil has slipped in and taken hold of me. I 'put on the Lord Jesus Christ' in prayer and morning Bible reading but then it's rough sailing for most of the day.
I love it when my internal juke box is playing hymns, and Christian music keeps me lifted, but it seems I have to make frequent effort to stay faithful.
It's as though Christianity hasn't become my default mode.

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Christ Jesus came to be Immanuel, not a manual.

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Chocoholic
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# 4655

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I sometimes wonder if I just overthink things and end up making it all more difficult for myself, rather than just getting in with it. Now, if I find a way of doing that....
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756

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Every day I wonder if there really is a God. But I still (sometimes) go to church, shutting off the three parts of my mind that doesn't believe, and listening and singing awful songs with the other quarter.

Basically, I think I'm really scared to 'come out' as a non-believer in case I'm wrong and there's a dreadful fate waiting for me when I die.

Now, that is as honest a post as I can write. Please don't go jumping down my throat if you reply.

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Chocoholic
Shipmate
# 4655

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Oh Nicodemia, with such openness and integrity I am sure no one could jump down your throat. I didn't want your post to go unanswered (which can also be unnerving).
Love and prayers for you in your journey.
[Votive]

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