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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What's your theology of marriage?
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Aye, agreed Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras. Very much so. I find myself able to be inclusive of your theological argument there because you juxtapose it with a psychological narrative. Emotional capacity is dynamic obviously, despite mellowing with age generally, it can diminish. Terminally. Watched Blue Jasmine last night. Terribly apropos. Kate Blanchet deserved the Oscar. And Mr. Allen, whatever else he may or may not be (and even he may not know), is an absolute and kind and gentle genius.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
The Preface from current marriage service (a little way down the page and headed 'Preface') isn't bad for as theology of marriage IMHO. "In the delight and tenderness of sexual union" is a little bit kutchy-koo, but what it's trying to convey is right and wholesome. The old version is pretty good too. It's the bit that starts 'Dearly Beloved'. In some ways, it's better as it's more realistic and less kutchy-koo. They're both though trying to say the same thing, the one for young sixteenth century people and the other young twenty-first century ones. Between them, they set out a theology of marriage a great deal better than I could.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Why must there be a theology for marriage?
Because Christ is meant to transform our lives in EVERY realm. So everything should have a theology.
Because marriage is a sacrament.
Because marriage is a vocation.
It's not a sacrament in the view of all Christians, though. And by vocation, do you mean "something you work at", or big 'v' Vocation, like being a minister/priest?
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
It's not a sacrament in the view of all Christians, though. ...
How much difference does it make to a person's theology of marriage whether they hold marriage to be a sacrament or not?
The RCC says that marriage is indissoluble, and that remarriage is a delusion because marriage is a sacrament. However, some Reformed thinkers get fairly near that point without concluding that marriage is a sacrament, simply on their understanding of scripture. Furthermore, many non-RCCs reconcile dissolution of marriage and remarriage with a sacramental understanding of marriage. They would say that a sacramental understanding of marriage stresses what a bad thing it is to break it, rather than maintaining that it means the marriage is not broken despite appearing to be dead in the same way as the famous dead parrot was dead.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
I've no idea what a sacramental understanding of marriage is apart from the RC definition and one certainly doesn't need that to stress what a bad thing it is to break it.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Just noticed this thread. I'm interested to read what kind of theology is attached to marriage since I've never understood how most Christians view this aspect of marriage.
My denomination, the New Church, places marriage at the center of humanity's moral and spiritual universe.
Some quotes:
quote:
Love in Marriage 57 by Emanuel Swedenborg
(1) There is a true love, which today is so rare that people do not know what it is like, and scarcely that it exists.
(2) This love originates from the marriage between good and truth.
(3) There is a correspondence between this love and the marriage of the Lord and the church.
(4) Regarded from its origin and correspondence, this love is celestial, spiritual, holy, pure and clean, more so than any other love which exists from the Lord in angels of heaven or people of the church.
(5) It is also the fundamental love of all celestial and spiritual loves, and consequently of natural loves.
(6) Moreover, into this love have been gathered all joys and all delights, from the first to the last of them.
(7) But no others come into this love and no others can be in it but those who go to the Lord and love the truths of the church and do the good things it teaches.
(8) This love was the greatest of loves among the ancients who lived in the golden, silver and copper ages, but after that it gradually disappeared.
All of this is based on the premise that God is love itself and wisdom itself and that these two things make up His essence.
Love and wisdom, or good and truth, are therefore the building blocks of everything in creation, and the distinction between the two is mirrored in countless ways.
One way is the division into two sexes, whose coming together in marriage reflects the wholeness of creation - and can therefore be the basis of great happiness.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lord Clonk
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# 13205
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
Being trans doesn't necessarily mean I'm confused about my gender.
Since I know loads of trans people, you'll just have to take my word that there are both plenty of us out there and that there are a very many people whom we do not disclose our status to. From what I'm aware, for the majority of trans people you would never even think that they might be trans, and it's not as if knowing a trans person well means that they'll tell you that they're trans, because, like, if you see them as the gender they are then that's all that's really relevant to life.
You said this:
'But nobody I know - gay or straight - is in denial about their actual biological gender.'
Hm. I'm probably not allowed to swear at you, which is really all that comment deserves. The thing a lot of cis people like you fail to grasp is that trans people tend to have thought these matters through much more than them, and that their conclusions are far from self-indulgent, considering the society we're in. So when you say we're in denial, all we hear is that you've got an opinion that doesn't affect you that you've most likely scarcely thought about. Thing is, if you look into it, there is no such thing as a biological gender. You will find that any marker of gender that you wish to use actually has a lot more grey areas and variation in them than is allowed for in a male/female binary understanding. So the idea of a clear biological gender of which you must be one of two distinct categories is just a social construct. And a damaging one, since it makes people like you say shit like this.
Also, like, why would I tell you I'm trans if you're the kind of person who considers trans people in denial?
I could go on.
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Invictus_88
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# 15352
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Posted
I'd be extremely cautious about taking a term "true love", and declaring it rare.
For me, I'd say that the matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons having been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament.
[ 16. March 2014, 14:02: Message edited by: Invictus_88 ]
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Lord Clonk. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) The cis can repent ...
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Masculinity and femininity are social constructs and vary massively between cultures. They also vary across genders - aside from the fact that not everyone is male or female, many who self-identify as women are masculine and vice versa. Gender and gender identity are complex and fluid.
This is often said, but the constructivist view always comes up against the evident biological structures. I think the correct way of saying this is that masculinity and femininity are both socially constructed and biologically constructed. One group may pee standing up, the other not so much.
No, this is deeply cissexist and transphobic. Sex =/= gender, many women have penises and many men have vulvas. And what does peeing standing up have to do with masculinity or femininity? You can identify as male and pee standing up and still be feminine. You can identify as male and be masculine and not be able to pee standing up.
My sorry attempt at some humour...
Like I said I understand the division between biological and psychological gender. I lived through the debate and separation of the two as constructs. I recall fully the debate, the issues, and the controversies. If you start from the statistically frequent and work from there, one set of understandings is gained. If you start from the infrequent, another set is gained. The current Zeitgeist is to honour all of the variability and glory in the uniqueness. You are expressing this. I expressed the other side of this, and I do think that both sides overstate their position.
Parallel: there is an analysis of sexual assault as an act of violence omitting the sexual aspect. I get the usefulness of that analysis as well, but find it can be overstated as the context for the violence is indeed sexual.
We construct our perceptions based on experience and the concepts we have internalized via experience. When you name something a particular way, like cissexual (term coined in the 1990s and gained life via the 'net), you construct the reality you declare. If my recall of personality theory holds, George Kelly taught us that.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Invictus_88:
I'd be extremely cautious about taking a term "true love", and declaring it rare.
I guess that you haven't seen "The Princess Bride."
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Invictus_88
Shipmate
# 15352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Masculinity and femininity are social constructs and vary massively between cultures. They also vary across genders - aside from the fact that not everyone is male or female, many who self-identify as women are masculine and vice versa. Gender and gender identity are complex and fluid.
This is often said, but the constructivist view always comes up against the evident biological structures. I think the correct way of saying this is that masculinity and femininity are both socially constructed and biologically constructed. One group may pee standing up, the other not so much.
No, this is deeply cissexist and transphobic. Sex =/= gender, many women have penises and many men have vulvas. And what does peeing standing up have to do with masculinity or femininity? You can identify as male and pee standing up and still be feminine. You can identify as male and be masculine and not be able to pee standing up.
Er. No, they actually don't. And that makes me a realist, not any sort of [prefix]phobe.
I mean, "cissexist". Seriously?
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
This term 'biological gender' puzzles me. What's happened to the good old-fashioned term sex? Sex, gender and orientation were the holy trilogy, when I was involved in gender studies, but I can see that the term 'gender' has become very fuzzy.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
I think 'true love' probably means the complete application of the NT Greek agape without any tainting of self interest. All human attempts at this fall short, given that selfishness is endemic in us. Following Christ, as best we can, as best we are enabled by the Spirit of God, draws us to practice this agape, the word we translate inadequately as 'love'.
It is an 'impossible possibility', characterised by Jesus as 'giving up our lives for his sake and so finding them'. Or seeking first the kingdom and God's righteousness. Otherwsie known as the thing to do first, the only way to go.
In terms of the theology of marriage, it is a conscious mutual giving up on selfishness for the sake of our partners. It is hard to do, and so much better than anything else we can try to do. We wax and wane in our ability to do it. But without mutuality in this respect, a marriage can easily become a prison, an empty shell, a dead thing. Those of us who are fortunate to have been able to sustain a long marriage do not boast of it; we count our blessings and thank God for our partners every day.
Marriage is challenging for the same reason that giving up on any form of selfishness is challenging. And for the additional reason that we are working it out in partnership and trust with someone else, who will also find this way challenging. Given how much our culture advocates self fulfilment and discounts the value of self denial, the wonder is not that divorce rates are so high. It is that they are not even higher.
[ 17. March 2014, 07:49: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Invictus_88:
I'd be extremely cautious about taking a term "true love", and declaring it rare.
I guess that you haven't seen "The Princess Bride."
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Well done!
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It is an 'impossible possibility', characterised by Jesus as 'giving up our lives for his sake and so finding them'. Or seeking first the kingdom and God's righteousness.
Beautifully put!
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Thanks Freddy.
I can't claim originality. I'm indebted to Reinhold Niebuhr for "impossible possibilities". A general observation of his re the Sermon on the Mount.
When aiming at a target, it is not essential to hit the bullseye, but it is helpful to know where it is. Seriously, somehow or other we have to avoid both the sin of perfectionism (which is normally a kind of misplaced pride) and the sin of complacency (which is often enough a form of indifference).
Maybe the best is the enemy of the good sometimes, but we need some kind of moral compass to help us in spotting the good. Calibrating moral compasses is a tricky business without help! Self interest gets in the way.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I really like the idea that marriage is difficult, not just because it happens to be hard, but that the difficulty is part of the point of it. Each couple has to embark on a journey of discovery - how can we make this work - which others can only help them with in a limited way, because every marriage is unique, and which has an uncertain outcome. This couple may not make it. When they have been married for forty years, they will still not be sure that they will make it. Marriage tests us all the way down.
My marriage is carving a hole in me. It changes constantly whether I experience that as a wounding or as construction - digging a well in a desert, maybe.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
@OP.
"Untill death do you part" is part promise, part threat, part commitment and contract.
The threat is that if you enter into it and even break it there is a part of it that is ongoing. A piece of your spirit is entwined with your spouse forever. As such, marriage being stated as indissolvable is merely factual. By thjs I am not saying marriages shouldn't end, but that there is more to it than a human decision. With death do you part just ancient wisdom.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Isn't that true of all relationships? A friendship, assuming you have opened up to the other person, shared a few difficult or happy times, is going to leave the two of you intertwined. Physical intimacy (which means sharing the bathroom as well as the bedroom) puts marriage on a more intense level, but if we cry and laugh with our friends we will never forget them either.
I think we learn who we are by seeing ourselves through other people's eyes. A person with no relationships at all would hardly be a person. Without Friday, Robinson Crusoe would not have been human.
I think that all relationships and communities have the mysterious risky and wonderful effect of developing the personalities of those involved in them; calling them into a more real being.
Marriage is special only in that along with a greater intimacy than is usual in other relationships, there is a commitment to making it work. It's an all-in relationship.
Though having said that, I'm not sure how many marriages 100 years ago had that character. First the idea of romantic love, and now the idea of equal partnership have changed marriage enormously.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I would say marriage is like friendship in only the sense that they are human relationships and can be emotionally close. They are otherwise quantum leaps apart. The comparison might be of going for coffee or tea with a friend, but having a full course meal with a spouse, and having the full course meal every day. And then holding the spouse when they are sick with what you've eaten together, and they you. (And, in my case, creating miniature people together makes it rather different as well.)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm sure you realise how right you are no prophet.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
I read today that in an Orthodox wedding there are no vows exchanged. The idea is that God unites the couple during the ceremony. A union not a contract.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
I read today that in an Orthodox wedding there are no vows exchanged. The idea is that God unites the couple during the ceremony. A union not a contract.
It is true, we have no vows. We believe God unites two people in a mystery (the literal translation of the Greek word for the sorts of actions (baptism, marriage, ordination) the Latins call sacraments). Like the miracle that turns bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, there is no one point in the service we can point to and say, "Before this point they're not married, and after it, they're married."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
I read today that in an Orthodox wedding there are no vows exchanged. The idea is that God unites the couple during the ceremony. A union not a contract.
It is true, we have no vows. We believe God unites two people in a mystery (the literal translation of the Greek word for the sorts of actions (baptism, marriage, ordination) the Latins call sacraments). Like the miracle that turns bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, there is no one point in the service we can point to and say, "Before this point they're not married, and after it, they're married."
Right. The only words exchanged are to answer two questions: are you entering into this of your own free will, and have you promised youself to anyone else. Thats it. And those answers are given to the priest, not each other. And let me tell you, after an hour+ long ceremony, you REALLY feel married!
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
We don't do anything fast if we can help it. (This is why Orthodox make better lovers.)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I would say marriage is like friendship in only the sense that they are human relationships and can be emotionally close. They are otherwise quantum leaps apart. The comparison might be of going for coffee or tea with a friend, but having a full course meal with a spouse, and having the full course meal every day. And then holding the spouse when they are sick with what you've eaten together, and they you. (And, in my case, creating miniature people together makes it rather different as well.)
My friends have literally and figuratively held me while I was sick. The quantum leap resides in the commitment to retain the relationship through stressors and profound differences that would otherwise erode a friendship, the legal ramifications of binding two lives together through possessions and children and the emotional fall out of perhaps seeing that important, intimate and profoundly connected relationship wither away.
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Latchkey Kid
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# 12444
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Posted
A quantum leap is the smallest of changes ;-)
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Latchkey Kid
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# 12444
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Posted
Some of my friends have made the jump from marriage back to friendship. They are much better off than those who made the jump to unfriendliness.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
We don't do anything fast if we can help it. (This is why Orthodox make better lovers.)
That made me smile. I see the Orthodox Plot™ is still alive and kicking.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Some of my friends have made the jump from marriage back to friendship. They are much better off than those who made the jump to unfriendliness.
Without going into details I have something of this order going on with one of my offspring .
Marriage for some , rather than being the bringer of joy growing in delight over the years, can for some strange reason become a massive burden of expectation for both parties . Failure of the expectation seems to pretty much lead directly to the failure of the marriage these days.
Re OP ? My personal theology on marriage is that it is ordained by God . But like a lot of things ordained by God it is also shrouded in mystery, and not something I'll enter into lightly a second time.
[ 23. March 2014, 09:49: Message edited by: rolyn ]
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Some of my friends have made the jump from marriage back to friendship. They are much better off than those who made the jump to unfriendliness.
Without going into details I have something of this order going on with one of my offspring .
Marriage for some , rather than being the bringer of joy growing in delight over the years, can for some strange reason become a massive burden of expectation for both parties . Failure of the expectation seems to pretty much lead directly to the failure of the marriage these days.
Re OP ? My personal theology on marriage is that it is ordained by God . But like a lot of things ordained by God it is also shrouded in mystery, and not something I'll enter into lightly a second time.
I agree about the expectation of marriage. The societal expectation can be suffocating. So much is expected, the entire weight of the world it seems sometimes. And when the entire weight of the world fails you, that's when people split.
So, maybe (because I have not a clue, not a clue, not a clue. Do I sound emotional? Uh, yea, cause I am.) we need to stop putting so many expectations on marriage. But, where do we stop and start our expectations? What are appropriate expectations? Is it up to the individuals? Both? Compromise? And if there is no compromise?
It comes down to, what are the expectations for our own individual lives? I don't know.
Doesn't "God" place a huge amount of expectation on a marriage? A relationship ordained, ordered, by God? Terrifying.
Shrouded in mystery? Sometimes it seems completely covered in mystery. A massive Rubik's cube. I just keep turning it, and turning it and turning it....
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Doesn't "God" place a huge amount of expectation on a marriage? A relationship ordained, ordered, by God? Terrifying.
Shrouded in mystery? Sometimes it seems completely covered in mystery. A massive Rubik's cube. I just keep turning it, and turning it and turning it....
Human selfishness places a huge amount of quite unreasonable expectation and pressure on marriages.
As it does on any other relationship.
There is nothing terribly mysterious involved in learning to be more loving by learning to be less selfishness. It's a challenge of course.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Some of my friends have made the jump from marriage back to friendship. They are much better off than those who made the jump to unfriendliness.
Yes - and I also know some who have remained in the same house, as friends.
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Garden. Room. Walk
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Doesn't "God" place a huge amount of expectation on a marriage? A relationship ordained, ordered, by God? Terrifying.
Shrouded in mystery? Sometimes it seems completely covered in mystery. A massive Rubik's cube. I just keep turning it, and turning it and turning it....
I know the 'God' thing sounds a bit heavy , but one thing the Bible makes a big play on is fidelity . Something that seems to be entirely lost on today's generation .
Didn't I hear the other day that a good many people surfing IT dating sites are already married !?
Maybe better not to turn the cube too much FOTH , one day the colours might just all line up and it could lose some of it's allure .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Fool on the hill
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# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Doesn't "God" place a huge amount of expectation on a marriage? A relationship ordained, ordered, by God? Terrifying.
Shrouded in mystery? Sometimes it seems completely covered in mystery. A massive Rubik's cube. I just keep turning it, and turning it and turning it....
I know the 'God' thing sounds a bit heavy , but one thing the Bible makes a big play on is fidelity . Something that seems to be entirely lost on today's generation .
Didn't I hear the other day that a good many people surfing IT dating sites are already married !?
Maybe better not to turn the cube too much FOTH , one day the colours might just all line up and it could lose some of it's allure .
Not such a big play. I don't think infidelity is new to this generation. Though social media has certainly made it easier. And people surfing the dating sites are so not all young. I have a lot of single friends.
It's true I don't know what I'd do with myself back when I played Rubik's cube if I had ever solved it. Probably thrown it away.
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Not such a big play. I don't think infidelity is new to this generation.
Well yes, I admit King Solomon didn't rate fidelity to one person very highly in his theology.
Maybe I'm thinking more of references to God not tolerating the 'adulterous' Israelites with their dabbling in other gods etc. etc . Then ,in the NT, Jesus doesn't seem to pull His punches on the theme a couple becoming 'One in the Father' and the perils of adultery.
I wasn't knocking dating sites per se , very good way to form a relationship . Just seemed a bit odd that it's been said so many married people are browsing around them.
Thinking about it , before the age of computers, I used to occasionally cast an eye over the lonely hearts column ,(as it was called then), just out of curiosity . That was before my marriage hit the rocks.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Ones selfishness is another's sacrifice.
Sure. There's a mutuality in this. When it works, we learn together how to move from falling in love to loving. When one partner chooses to dominate or manipulate, things go wrong. They don't have to.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Fool on the hill
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Ones selfishness is another's sacrifice.
Sure. There's a mutuality in this. When it works, we learn together how to move from falling in love to loving. When one partner chooses to dominate or manipulate, things go wrong. They don't have to.
What I mean is that at some point, selflessness turns into sacrifice. Sometimes selfishness is really a need surfacing or unmet. Sometimes the sacrifice is too great. Sometimes the selfishness dominates, and sometimes there is manipulation to get what you want or need, and yes, that is a choice, but it isn't a simple choice. You make it sound so simple. It's not.
Human beings are complex creatures and I'm not sure that two people can travel that continuum between selflessness and selfishness in tandem. Divorce and infidelity rates attest to that.
And there are so many key words in what you've said here. "When it works" (and when it doesn't?), "learn together", (and when they don't?), "one partner" (and so the other?). Even the words dominate and manipulate need defining.
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Barnabas62
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Posted
Summaries always sound simple. Perhaps it would help if I observed that falling off the tandem is normal? Tandems are quite difficult to keep balanced until you get the knack.
I'm not sure that I can incorporate 45 years of experience of living with one person in just a few words anyway. Even if I could, there is no way of knowing that the lessons in love we've learned together would read across. It's been a rich and fulfilling adventure for us, with plenty of ups and downs and not a few tandem falls. We always found it within us to get back on the tandem again. Not all couples find they can do that.
Your comments about unmet needs are wise, of course. There is no remedy for that which can be found without honest talk. Candour and vulnerability depend on trust, that the relationship can stand it. Sometimes you have to take a chance. Progress is when the unmet need is recognised not just as a problem for one of us, but for both if us. Looking not just to your own needs, but to the needs of your partner, is where the rubber hits the road in the journey towards unselfish loving.
I think it is a pity this kind of conversation doesn't happen more often in preparation for marriage, or seeking to establish some kind of long term relationship by other means.
[ 25. March 2014, 20:27: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Fool on the hill
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# 9428
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Posted
I'm not sure, barnabas, that these conversations before marriage would help that much. Like you said, there's no substitution for actually living it. You have to turn the rubiks cube yourself.
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Barnabas62
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Posted
I agree in part. Every attempt at marriage is unique. But it is possible to learn from other people's experience of what works and what doesn't. Folks can judge for themselves what "reads across" and what doesn't.
Doesn't it strike you as somewhat crazy that many couples spend up to a year's elapsed time, and loads and loads of planning and preparation time for the wedding day, taking advice from all sorts of folks about what will work, what is best what will make the day "just perfect"? And yet remarkably few take anything like an equivalent amount of time to consult, take advice, about how to make the long term work.
Sure, marriage is under a cloud, given current divorce rates, and I don't blame anyone who looks at the debris (particularly if they've seen it from the inside in their own families) and says, maybe this whole thing is not such a great idea. But loads of folks still want to get married. That, if you like, is the "target audience" for some serious preparation.
The debris suggest that there's a mismatch between expectation and reality. All I'm suggesting is some of that can be avoided by some serious consideration about how to make the long term work.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Fool on the hill
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# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I agree in part. Every attempt at marriage is unique. But it is possible to learn from other people's experience of what works and what doesn't. Folks can judge for themselves what "reads across" and what doesn't.
Doesn't it strike you as somewhat crazy that many couples spend up to a year's elapsed time, and loads and loads of planning and preparation time for the wedding day, taking advice from all sorts of folks about what will work, what is best what will make the day "just perfect"? And yet remarkably few take anything like an equivalent amount of time to consult, take advice, about how to make the long term work.
Sure, marriage is under a cloud, given current divorce rates, and I don't blame anyone who looks at the debris (particularly if they've seen it from the inside in their own families) and says, maybe this whole thing is not such a great idea. But loads of folks still want to get married. That, if you like, is the "target audience" for some serious preparation.
The debris suggest that there's a mismatch between expectation and reality. All I'm suggesting is some of that can be avoided by some serious consideration about how to make the long term work.
Totally agree. The only problem is that people change. So expectations change. Reality changes.
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Barnabas62
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People do change. It's all a bit knife edged really. Marriage, or any equivalent long term relationship, is a kind of crucible. It produces challenges for us, some of which require us to adapt.
I feel it's changed me for the better and my wife feels the same. I think it's possible for the challenges and resulting changes to strengthen the relationship, not weaken it, but it sure isn't guaranteed.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Laura
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# 10
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Posted
My own theology of marriage (which has developed over the years) is heavily influenced by the Orthodox view that it is a podvig, or ascetic labor/vocation - the way being a monastic would be. That the partners work together in grace. That it's not about love in the feeling sense, though it absolutely involves that.
So I would say, marriage is a covenantal acting out of Christ's sacrificial love between two people.
I then blend it with Quakerism. Love is a decision, followed by loving action. That decision can arise from the feeling of love, and the feeling of love is 100% a part of this loving action. But I'm not sure how many people understand how the feeling can encourage the action as much as the action the feeling. That is to say, about once a week I feel deeply in my heart that my beloved is totally wrong and really needs to be yelled at a great deal so that he will be brought to a full and deep appreciation of my correctness. But I still do my best to behave with love, even if I definitely am experiencing a lacuna in the feeling itself. And with loving action, the feeling resrfaces on a regular basis, even after two decades.
Now I will quote Fromm:
“Love is a decision, it is a judgment, it is a promise. If love were only a feeling, there would be no basis for the promise to love each other forever. A feeling comes and it may go. How can I judge that it will stay forever, when my act does not involve judgment and decision.”
― Erich Fromm, The Art of Loving
You're welcome!
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
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Barnabas62
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Posted
Shouting is OK as a way of signalling "you are so annoying" or "you aren't listening".
It just runs the risk of becoming a means of both generating fear and improving the chances of getting your own way. The real point is knowing the risk to the relationship if you go down that road.
I missed noticing you were back posting, Laura. Good to see you. I like the Fromm quote a lot.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Thanks!
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Shouting is OK as a way of signalling "you are so annoying" or "you aren't listening".
It just runs the risk of becoming a means of both generating fear and improving the chances of getting your own way. The real point is knowing the risk to the relationship if you go down that road.
D. H. Lawrence pointed to the fact that a couple in a second marriage often experience a kind of 'truce' that didn't exist in their first marriages.
In first marriages some couples can treat each other as emotional punch-bags ,(not in the literal sense of course), in the belief it doesn't matter.
In a second marriage/LTR one tends to not want to take that risk.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Tukai
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# 12960
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Summaries always sound simple. Perhaps it would help if I observed that falling off the tandem is normal? Tandems are quite difficult to keep balanced until you get the knack.
I'm not sure that I can incorporate 45 years of experience of living with one person in just a few words anyway. Even if I could, there is no way of knowing that the lessons in love we've learned together would read across. It's been a rich and fulfilling adventure for us, with plenty of ups and downs and not a few tandem falls. We always found it within us to get back on the tandem again. Not all couples find they can do that.
... Looking not just to your own needs, but to the needs of your partner, is where the rubber hits the road in the journey towards unselfish loving....
Having just celebrated our 40th wedding anniversary, Mrs T and I agree with B62's wise words, not least the tandem analogy. Like riding a tandem, marriage is not easy but worth the effort because two people helping each other to go in one direction makes it easier for both of them. But the direction may not have been that which one of the partners had in mind initially, but which (s)he recognised as a real need of the other partner and adapted to that.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
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