|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Did Judas repent?
|
pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
|
Posted
I don't want to re-hash the old attempts to cast Judas as a decent bloke - until the end of his life.
But I do want to revisit the traditional assertion that Judas put himself out of the way of forgiveness as a result of his suicide.
Three questions to begin with.
1. How sure can we be that Judas killed himself?
2. If he did, why does this preclude his forgiveness?
3. If the suicide was a despairing act, how can we know of what he was despairing - one account has his guts comiong out as he falls headlong. This is not the usual outcome of hanging, AFAIK.
Could it have been cancer? A strangled hernia?
An extra question has come to mind, based not on biblical accounts (which is why this is in Puerg and nnot Keryg):
4. Could the undisguised hatred of of the early church fathers prompted by the suicide be indicative of disappointment - that the Church, not Jesus, was robbed of the op[portunity to punish him?
--------------------
In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Is there an Easter without Judas?
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Is there an Easter without Judas?
Can you explain how this addresses the OP, which is not about whether Judas' betrayal was necessary, but about whether he might have repented of it?
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
posted by no prophet;
quote:
Is there an Easter without Judas?
Yes. They would have paid someone else.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
|
Posted
I agree with fletcher. In the account, Judas is needed to identify Jesus at the garden. There were presumably many people who had spoken with Jesus, not all of them his followers, and any one of them could have identified him, perhaps even gratis.
The original question here was about the suicide of Judas. I remember that in one of Ursula LeGuin's books ("The Left Hand of Darkness"), there is an observation that the suicide is an even worse offense than the betrayal, in that it denies the possibility of making any sort of amends or atonement. (It's been too long since I last read it; perhaps I am remembering it imprecisely.)
The notion that Judas was murdered, not a suicide, is provocative but seems unlikely.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
Could it be possible that the suicide itself was an act of repentance.
In that Judas realised he had done wrong and his grief led him to top himself.
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
I agree with fletcher. In the account, Judas is needed to identify Jesus at the garden. There were presumably many people who had spoken with Jesus, not all of them his followers, and any one of them could have identified him, perhaps even gratis.
This long puzzled me. In fact I would have thought the authorities could have recognised Jesus themselves.
However, Judas in his misguided anger is in fact very welcome for the authorities, because he is a scapegoat. They have someone to do their dirty work for them. The money changing hands is a way of binding Judas to his commitment and depersonalising the matter for them.
The question of just how or where Judas died is a vexed one if you look at the Gospels and Acts closely enough. I don't think suicide puts him beyond the pale but I am a bit worried by Jesus calling him the "son of perdition" and Peter saying he has gone "where he belongs".
[ 20. March 2014, 19:23: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Is there an Easter without Judas?
Can you explain how this addresses the OP, which is not about whether Judas' betrayal was necessary, but about whether he might have repented of it?
My point is why do we need Judas involved at all. The question of his involvement in the Easter story has always puzzled me, and I like Eutychus' discussion about this re scapegoat and dirty work.
A related question is whether Judas could be forgiven if he repented.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
His forgiveness is before his suicide. Before his existence. Let alone his obvious repentance.
[ 20. March 2014, 19:57: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
I've always assumed that Judas' suicide was an act of utter despair. Having realised what he'd done, he goes off to commit an act that he possibly thought would put him outside the realm of forgiveness, issuing himself with the punishment he thought he deserved. It's a story full of sadness at not seeing just how vast the forgiveness of God could be.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
I don't think his suicide has anything at all to due with his state of forgiveness. That idea IMHO is based on the thought that repentance is something we have to carry out in this life after the sinful act, and since suicide has no this-world "after," therefore...
No.
The one thing that would cause Judas to be damned is not suicide, or betraying Christ, or being a generally all round rotten guy. It is lack of faith. Lack of trust in the very Christ who was holding out his hands to him all the time, urging him to come back, to accept mercy, to take forgiveness. And if someone lacks faith and refuses grace and never, ever, is willing to have that changed, not in all eternity, even God himself can do nothing about it. That's what free will means. That's why it is possible to have a loving, all-powerful God and STILL have people end up in hell. Because God will not overrule their free choice.
Basically, what Peter and Judas did was exactly the same thing (though one looks a bit more cold-blooded than the other, because it was premeditated). Both denied him. Both betrayed his trust both as friends and disciples. Both were instrumental in his death.
The only difference between them is that Peter DID have faith (Jesus mentions praying for him in that area specifically--"I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail..."). Peter fell apart emotionally just as Judas did. But Peter still believed that Jesus would forgive him. Which he did.
Poor Judas.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
1. How sure can we be that Judas killed himself?
As sure as we can be of anything written in the Bible.
Are there any separate sources of information about Judas besides the Bible?
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Basically, what Peter and Judas did was exactly the same thing (though one looks a bit more cold-blooded than the other, because it was premeditated). Both denied him. Both betrayed his trust both as friends and disciples. Both were instrumental in his death.
The only difference between them is that Peter DID have faith (Jesus mentions praying for him in that area specifically--"I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail..."). Peter fell apart emotionally just as Judas did. But Peter still believed that Jesus would forgive him. Which he did.
The Peter-Judas parallel makes me wonder. Is this a literary device and good story-telling?
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
So Judas isn't forgiven?
If you were Jesus you wouldn't forgive him?
While he was yet a sinner?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The Peter-Judas parallel makes me wonder. Is this a literary device and good story-telling?
Sure, why not? Though that doesn't stop it from being historically true, as well.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
So Judas isn't forgiven?
If you were Jesus you wouldn't forgive him?
While he was yet a sinner?
Of course you can forgive; but for that forgiveness to have any effect in the person's life, they have to believe/trust/have faith in it/me.
Take my old boss. I can (and am trying to) forgive him completely, but that isn't going to make a darn bit of difference to him unless he a) wakes up and realizes that he has done evil, and b) is willing to entertain the far-fetched notion that contacting me might NOT end up in a nuclear reaction. Otherwise our relationship remains the same--utterly severed. (The forgiveness will do ME some good, uncluttering my brain and lowering my blood pressure and so forth--but it won't do zip for him until a) and b)).
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amos
Shipmate
# 44
|
Posted
Lamb Chopped, I'm trying to understand the line you're taking.
You say that Judas was damned, not for his suicide, nor for betraying his Lord, but for his lack of faith.
Does this mean that all who lack faith are damned?
Is our faith something we do? Our work? I was always under the impression that it was ultimately only by the grace of God that we were able to believe.
You can see where I think your argument is leading you.
I tend more to Martin PCNot's point of view.
--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Lamb Chopped, I'm trying to understand the line you're taking.
You say that Judas was damned, not for his suicide, nor for betraying his Lord, but for his lack of faith.
Does this mean that all who lack faith are damned?
Is our faith something we do? Our work? I was always under the impression that it was ultimately only by the grace of God that we were able to believe.
You can see where I think your argument is leading you.
I tend more to Martin PCNot's point of view.
It's by grace through faith. Or as Jesus said, '...everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life... Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.'
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
|
Posted
Slightly belated to where the point was made, but
quote:
originally by HCH;
I agree with fletcher. In the account, Judas is needed to identify Jesus at the garden. There were presumably many people who had spoken with Jesus, not all of them his followers, and any one of them could have identified him, perhaps even gratis.
The need for Judas is not simply the identification but that he knew where and when Jesus was going and could lead the troops there. Since he was needed for that he would also be the best person to identify Jesus in the (probable) moonlight.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
Now were getting into the whole faith vs works thing, and is faith actually a kind of work itself ( no), and how can it be that if we have faith it is wholly credited to God's good gift (grace) and not our own action or choice, but if we do NOT have it, the blame is solely ours. And the logical problems involved with holding such a position (which I do, and logic be hanged).
It would make a fine discussion, but I don't want to derail this thread, so I'll leave it at that.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The Peter-Judas parallel makes me wonder. Is this a literary device and good story-telling?
I don't think a good story is necessarily untrue.
In fact, even as I made my last post here, I was thinking that Peter's role in getting Judas replaced in Acts. Taking it on himself to highlight just how bad Judas was and appoint a successor is quite a Peterish bull-by-the-horns way of deflecting attention from his own slipup (although I don't think it was of the same magnitude as that of Judas), and possibly bears witness to a bit of a guilty conscience still.
The more I consider the depth of character we see in many Bible figures, consistent across multiple authors, the more I feel we're getting a reliable picture of them.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
And Jesus is NOT capable, unlike ken's, of loving someone to love.
He's TOTALLY impotent.
And regardless, Judas did repent.
[ 21. March 2014, 05:28: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
bib
Shipmate
# 13074
|
Posted
I've always felt that it was intended that Judas should be the one to betray Jesus and that there was probably nothing he could have done as he was caught up in the momentum. In the same way, nothing Pilate did or said could prevent the crucifixion as that act was necessary for our salvation. But I ask myself, does this mean that our whole life is pre ordained or are we able to really have total free will?
--------------------
"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Neither. Jesus chose a thief. He saved that thief from eternity and will walk with him in the garden and all will be well.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
But I ask myself, does this mean that our whole life is pre ordained or are we able to really have total free will?
I think your phrase "caught up in the momentum" says it really well.
We had an animated discussion about both Pilate and Judas recently here in our study group as we work through the gospel of John (which we have been doing since at least 2011 ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ).
I'm not sure how the systematic theology pans out, but I think you get a really clear if paradoxical picture of two people who act of their own free will and yet nonetheless are doing no more than what was foretold, as it says of Pilate in Acts. Each step is voluntary, but boy is it hard to break free once the ball is rolling. I can think of a lot of inmates in that situation ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
Prophecy only foretells what's going to happen, it doesn't decide or ensure it happens. It merely relates to us what the prophetic eye saw as if it were there. It's news given in advance.
[ 21. March 2014, 06:50: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
The one thing that would cause Judas to be damned is not suicide, or betraying Christ, or being a generally all round rotten guy. It is lack of faith.
God is not condoning evil in thought, word, or deed just as long as one believes in Him; and if someone dies in mortal sin, then his sincere belief in God will be confirmed as true to him in hell, not heaven.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Neither. Jesus chose a thief. He saved that thief from eternity and will walk with him in the garden and all will be well.
The good thief was saved by His sincere repentance when faced with God Himself. The bad thief was domed by his lack thereof (though yes, we only know the latter by reasonable inference from the actual text).
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
It's amazing how we project in to the white space.
Judas was the thief in question. Context.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It's amazing how we project in to the white space.
Judas was the thief in question. Context.
Judas was crucified next to Jesus??
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It's amazing how we project in to the white space. Judas was the thief in question. Context.
I thought that you were making an actual scripture-based argument, by making an analogy from the "good thief" to the case at hand. It turns out that instead you are simply asserting your opinion over and against scripture, which states clearly ... but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born." Judas, who betrayed him, said, "Is it I, Master?" He said to him, "You have said so." (Matt 26:24-25)
As for the "necessity" of Judas treachery, and that it excuses him - such false thought has been around for a long time, and was rejected by the Church Fathers, e.g.,
quote:
Homily 81 on Matthew, St John Chrysostom
But some one will say, "Yet if it was written that He was to suffer these things, wherefore is Judas blamed, for he did the things that were written?" But not with this intent, but from wickedness. For if you inquire not concerning the motive, you will deliver even the devil from the charges against him. But these things are not, they are not so. For both the one and the other are deserving of countless punishments, although the world was saved. For neither did the treason of Judas work out salvation for us, but the wisdom of Christ, and the good contrivance of His fair skill, using the wickednesses of others for our advantage.
"What then," one may say, "though Judas had not betrayed Him, would not another have betrayed Him?" And what has this to do with the question? Because if Christ must needs be crucified, it must be by the means of some one, and if by some one, surely by such a person as this. But if all had been good, the dispensation in our behalf had been impeded. Not so. For the Allwise knows how He shall bring about our benefits, even had this happened. For His wisdom is rich in contrivance, and incomprehensible. So for this reason, that no one might suppose that Judas had become a minister of the dispensation, He declares the wretchedness of the man. But some one will say again, "And if it had been good if he had never been born, wherefore did He suffer both this man, and all the wicked, to come into the world?" When you ought to blame the wicked, for that having the power not to become such as they are, they have become wicked, you leave this, and busiest yourself, and art curious about the things of God; although knowing that it is not by necessity that any one is wicked.
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Jesus' hyperbole is typical of Him, His culture.
I engage with 'scripture' - whatever that is - mate. You should try it.
Nothing is excusable and everything is forgiven.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Jesus' hyperbole is typical of Him, His culture.
It is quite interesting that anything "negative" Jesus says becomes hyperbole to your ears, but nothing "positive" ever does. What precisely stops "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life," from being hyperbole as well, hmm?
Yes, Jesus liked using hyperbole. But your selection bias concerning what you consider as hyperbole and what not is your selection bias. The bible still says what it says. It still has "positive" and "negative" parts. That some of them are expressed in hyperbole does not change the balance of what is being said, fundamentally. But you have completely veered to one side of things. There is room for reasonable argument about the precise balance and the best way to avoid bias. But you are simply nowhere near that discussion IMNSHO.
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
I ask again? "Judas was the thief on the cross?"
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I ask again? "Judas was the thief on the cross?"
Martin never said that. Martin spoke of Judas as thief (which he was) without naming him, and I misunderstood that he was making an analogy to the "good thief". However, this was not the case. Martin's comment was then directed at me, and meant "You (IngoB) should have realised from context that I was referring to Judas, not to the 'good thief'." It did not mean "From context we see that the 'good thief' is Judas."
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
See, you can still think for England within your very narrow assumptions ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
1. How sure can we be that Judas killed himself?
As sure as we can be of anything written in the Bible.
Are there any separate sources of information about Judas besides the Bible?
I take your point entirely. But the bible itself is not entirely clear on where. how and when Judas died. Is it?
--------------------
In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
|
Posted
IngoB. Thank you for the item from St John Chrysostom. Do you happen to know who or what this early father was replying to in that passage. I know it was just a homily on Matthew. But there's really no such thing as "just" a homily on anything, is there?
Is it possible that there were people around advocating the positions which he scotches? If not, then they are straw men, surely?
Well, no, not surely. Could it simply be a rhetorical device - the question/answer formality of a diatribe?
--------------------
In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
No mate, what's good is good. And what's hyperbole is hyperbole. And yeah, I see what I'm looking for: grace. Ethics. Not legalism predicated on wooden literalism. You sure you're not a YECist?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
I know it was just a homily on Matthew. But there's really no such thing as "just" a homily on anything, is there?
These homilies are pretty much just that. Homilies. As this preface remarks:
quote:
The exegetical labors of Chrysostom are embodied in his Homilies, of which more than six hundred have been preserved. These are for the most part expository in their character, usually forming a continuous series upon some book of Scripture. ... Most of the Homilies were preserved by short-hand reports, but some were published by Chrysostom himself. [5] There are internal evidences that in many cases the spoken discourse had not been previously written, e.g., the rebuke of applause and of inattention on account of some distracting incident. Previous study is equally manifest in the expository portions; but the method of delivery as well as the method of preservation must modify our judgment of the preacher's exegetical accuracy. Probably many of the inconsistencies and inexact citations, noticeable in the Homilies, are due to one or the other of these causes.
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
1. How sure can we be that Judas killed himself?
As sure as we can be of anything written in the Bible.
Are there any separate sources of information about Judas besides the Bible?
I take your point entirely. But the bible itself is not entirely clear on where. how and when Judas died. Is it?
Is it not?
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Apparently Akeldama, by hanging or evisceration and some time after Jesus' arrest aren't forensic enough.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Apparently Akeldama, by hanging or evisceration and some time after Jesus' arrest aren't forensic enough.
Ihe interpretation I heard was that Judas hanged himself and somehow later on his body fell and burst open.
ewww
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Aye Mudfrog. Ropes and branches break. While you're still conscious. There's an art to hanging. The long drop is quick. Otherwise it takes 20 minutes and you urinate, defecate and ejaculate in that order. If he'd been dead and begun to bloat and then the branch broke, an obliging rock spur or branch a few metres below would have unzipped him. Someone saw him topple head first. A nice authentic touch.
It's going to be a very funny walk in the park for him!
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
The one thing that would cause Judas to be damned is not suicide, or betraying Christ, or being a generally all round rotten guy. It is lack of faith.
God is not condoning evil in thought, word, or deed just as long as one believes in Him; and if someone dies in mortal sin, then his sincere belief in God will be confirmed as true to him in hell, not heaven.
Ingo, we don't do the mortal sin thingy. From a Lutheran perspective all sin is mortal, and all sin is equally forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ. Whether one has had time to perform a mental act of repentance before death or not does not matter provided the underlying faith/grace relationship is there with Christ. Otherwise, anybody getting hit by a bus in the street would be more likely than not to go straight to hell, particularly with the very expansive and frightening definition of sin Jesus gives in Matthew 5-7. By those standards I sin every five minutes, if not more often.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Ingo, we don't do the mortal sin thingy. From a Lutheran perspective all sin is mortal, and all sin is equally forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ. Whether one has had time to perform a mental act of repentance before death or not does not matter provided the underlying faith/grace relationship is there with Christ.
Two theological wrongs do not make one right, but rather a salvation-endangering practice.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Otherwise, anybody getting hit by a bus in the street would be more likely than not to go straight to hell, particularly with the very expansive and frightening definition of sin Jesus gives in Matthew 5-7. By those standards I sin every five minutes, if not more often.
It would require quite some dedicated effort to sin mortally every five minutes though. You cannot simply impose your "all sin is equal" on the highly differentiated Catholic system. (And it is a lot more differentiated than the binary "venial or mortal" result may suggest. Just like medicine is a lot more differentiated than a final "treatable or terminal" judgement.) The number of people in hell has been guesstimated variously throughout the centuries. However, the most optimistic take that is somewhat compatible with scripture and tradition is that most people who die will go to purgatory (and thus eventually to heaven), whereas some will go straight to hell and some will go straight to heaven. It is much easier though to defend the position that most people who die will go to hell, with some going to purgatory and a few going directly to heaven.
[ 22. March 2014, 02:02: Message edited by: IngoB ]
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
IngoB, twas you who imposed RC categories on a Lutheran posting. My explanation of this was then followed by your further attempt to impose those categories on it as well. We're at cross purposes here and will get no further forward as the tangent devolves into "sez you" and variants. Let's drop it before we derail the Judas focus.
[ 22. March 2014, 04:23: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
quote:
Otherwise, anybody getting hit by a bus in the street would be more likely than not to go straight to hell,
Their final word before the bus hits is not one you are likely to hear in Church. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[code]
[ 22. March 2014, 15:12: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
|
Posted
Well perhaps, for the record, I should make some attempt at answering my own questions.
1. Can we be sure that Judas killed himself?
I really cannot speak to the "we", only to the "I". I'm pretty sure he died a painful death. But I'm not sure where, when or how. Neither do I know for sure whether his identification as the betrayer (the sole
betrayer) originated before or after his death.
Lists of the disciples appear early on in all the gospels. Each time, Judas is noted as the one who betrayed Jesus. It was obviously an important fact in the minds of the evangelists.
That's as far as I can go, here, for now.
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
