Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I would be rather more enthusiastic if he wasn't dismissing TEC...

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
What does TEC stand for? Can't see it defined in the article.

I am allergic undefined acronyms.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
I have seriously mixed feelings about the entire situation regarding the Anglican splits in the US. But fundamentally I wish that evangelicals and liberals had a place at the same table within one unified Anglican province. Unfortunately I think that ship has long since sailed.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
Interesting how a story about conversion turns into an anti-TEC screed for absolutely no reason at all. He's never been an Episcopalian, he isn't converting to the Episcopal Church, but he takes time to denounce it all the same.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Most likely the reluctance to join with the TEC is due to their more liberal stance on gay ordination/marriage, which, sadly, in some parts of evangelicalism is The Only Thing That Matters.

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
Interesting how a story about conversion turns into an anti-TEC screed for absolutely no reason at all. He's never been an Episcopalian, he isn't converting to the Episcopal Church, but he takes time to denounce it all the same.

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Seems more to me like he was anticipating the massive negative reaction from his evangelical peers if there was any hint that he was bringing Episcopal views on some issues into their community.

I do think there's value in his explaining that Anglicanism is more diverse than perhaps most Americans are aware of, so that a charismatic evangelical and an Anglo-Catholic are still part of the same family bound by common tenets.

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Said the woman who seems to believe that one parish with a vague grasp on orthodoxy must typify Episcopal churches everywhere.


[ 24. March 2014, 14:00: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
I've met Church of England priests who are also ordained ministers of other Protestant churches.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
Said the woman who seems to believe that one parish with a vague grasp on orthodoxy must typify Episcopal churches everywhere.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
Said the woman who seems to believe that one parish with a vague grasp on orthodoxy must typify Episcopal churches everywhere.

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Zach...I rather clearly said that I attend another TEC parish in a different town to avoid the one in my own that I feel is not orthodox.

I have no beef with TEC, I am a liberal. However I'm also an evangelical so in worship style TEC is a bit out of my comfort zone. But all things being equal I would rather attend TEC than an independent evangelical where who knows what the basis of their belief is, any day.

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Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Perhaps this is a cross-pond thing, but I don't really see what is so remarkable about this. A couple of my colleagues at an evangelical univ. have made pretty much an identical move. American evangelicals are historically loosey-goosey about denominations, and in recent years have been exploring liturgy and other elements of "high church"-- in a typically cafeteria style. Most likely the reluctance to join with the TEC is due to their more liberal stance on gay ordination/marriage, which, sadly, in some parts of evangelicalism is The Only Thing That Matters.

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Perhaps this is a cross-pond thing, but I don't really see what is so remarkable about this. A couple of my colleagues at an evangelical univ. have made pretty much an identical move. American evangelicals are historically loosey-goosey about denominations, and in recent years have been exploring liturgy and other elements of "high church"-- in a typically cafeteria style. Most likely the reluctance to join with the TEC is due to their more liberal stance on gay ordination/marriage, which, sadly, in some parts of evangelicalism is The Only Thing That Matters.

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Evangelicals can adopt as much liturgy and ceremonial as they want. However, one loosey goosey about denominations shouldn't seek holy orders in a church that has a high view of ordination. Continuing Anglican bishops willing to ordain people who have no intent to serve in an Anglican parish will soon end up with more priests than laity. Perhaps, if Packiam plays his cards right, he can become a bishop, ordain more Evangelical pastors to the priesthood, and join the proud fraternal order of Anglican episcopi vagantes (wandering bishops).

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Posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
oooooh "Evangelical joins the Episcopal Church!"

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
oooooh "Evangelical joins the Episcopal Church!"

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No, not the Episcopal Church. And he's not really joining the "Anglican" Church either -- he's staying at a non-denominational church.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Gee D:
I wish him well, but notice that he was deaconed and will be priested into a church which is not part of the Anglican Communion.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
oooooh "Evangelical joins the Episcopal Church!"

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No, not the Episcopal Church. And he's not really joining the "Anglican" Church either -- he's staying at a non-denominational church.

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This doesn't really surprise me. Quite a few of these bishops in the "Global South" who have set themselves up as defenders of "orthodox" Anglicanism have a very, very low view of the church and its orders (in line with the pseudo-Anglicanism of, say, Sydney). So, the fact that one of them would ordain an independent charismatic pastor as an Anglican priest makes sense.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gee D:
I wish him well, but notice that he was deaconed and will be priested into a church which is not part of the Anglican Communion.

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I'm not sure if that's true; PEARUSA is under the authority of the Anglican Church of Rwanda, which is a member of the Communion. They are not in communion with TEC (which is the point of the Rwandan connection), but does that separate them from the Anglican Communion?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gee D:
I wish him well, but notice that he was deaconed and will be priested into a church which is not part of the Anglican Communion.

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I'm not sure if that's true; PEARUSA is under the authority of the Anglican Church of Rwanda, which is a member of the Communion. They are not in communion with TEC (which is the point of the Rwandan connection), but does that separate them from the Anglican Communion?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
Yet their understanding of ordination looks something like a magical spell.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Quoth Fr. Dn. Packiam:
2. What do Anglicans believe?
Anglican theology is, to put it simply, Protestant theology.¹

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
This doesn't really surprise me. Quite a few of these bishops in the "Global South" who have set themselves up as defenders of "orthodox" Anglicanism have a very, very low view of the church and its orders (in line with the pseudo-Anglicanism of, say, Sydney). So, the fact that one of them would ordain an independent charismatic pastor as an Anglican priest makes sense.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
Yet their understanding of ordination looks something like a magical spell.

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That is offensive and untrue.

And for what its worth they'd probably say the same about Anglo-Catholics.

[Code fix - Gwai]

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:
Yet their understanding of ordination looks something like a magical spell.

---

That is offensive and untrue.

And for what its worth they'd probably say the same about Anglo-Catholics.

[Code fix - Gwai]

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Are you under the impression that I was attacking an evangelical understanding of Holy Orders?

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:

---

Quoth Fr. Dn. Packiam:
2. What do Anglicans believe?
Anglican theology is, to put it simply, Protestant theology.¹

---

It seems to me that our Father Deacon needs a strong course of Remedial Anglicanism.

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:
Yet their understanding of ordination looks something like a magical spell.

---

That is offensive and untrue.

And for what its worth they'd probably say the same about Anglo-Catholics.

[Code fix - Gwai]

---

Are you under the impression that I was attacking an evangelical understanding of Holy Orders?

---

Partly. Mostly I was under the impression that you were attacking the education, intelligence, or orthodoxy, of African bishops.

Maybe I get over-sensitive to it because so much of the tirade of online hate against Anglican (and other) evangelicals in the last decade or two has been stuffed with barely concealed racism and class prejudice.

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Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
oooooh "Evangelical joins the Episcopal Church!"



So what? I know of at least 3 Salvation Army officers who have become Anglican priests.

It's not like they've become pagans or joined the Mafia. Unless of course the underlying motive for posting the OP is to try to suggest that this formerly misguided evangelical has done the decent thing and joined a proper church!

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
oooooh "Evangelical joins the Episcopal Church!"

---

No, not the Episcopal Church. And he's not really joining the "Anglican" Church either -- he's staying at a non-denominational church.

---

This doesn't really surprise me. Quite a few of these bishops in the "Global South" who have set themselves up as defenders of "orthodox" Anglicanism have a very, very low view of the church and its orders (in line with the pseudo-Anglicanism of, say, Sydney). So, the fact that one of them would ordain an independent charismatic pastor as an Anglican priest makes sense.

In Atlanta, there is an independent "Anglican" mega-church, a chunk of whose congregation originated at the TEC cathedral, which is led by a pastor who has some sort of episcopal ordination but who is not presently under the authority of any bishop (as far as I know): Church of the Apostles: "We are an evangelical, Anglican congregation...." It looks like the church in Colorado will end up a lot like the Church of the Apostles.

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:

---

Quoth Fr. Dn. Packiam:
2. What do Anglicans believe?
Anglican theology is, to put it simply, Protestant theology.¹

---

It seems to me that our Father Deacon needs a strong course of Remedial Anglicanism.

---

We're in full communion with the Lutherans. Who is more Protestant than them?

We have no purely theological differences with the Methodists at all, and they look pretty Protestant to me. (The range of theological ideas taught by Anglican churches worldwide is probably wider than that of Methodists, probably much wider, but the overlap is complete)

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Posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:
Yet their understanding of ordination looks something like a magical spell. What do they thing they are giving him if he isn't becoming part of any Anglican jurisdiction?

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Posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:

---

Quoth Fr. Dn. Packiam:
2. What do Anglicans believe?
Anglican theology is, to put it simply, Protestant theology.¹

---

It seems to me that our Father Deacon needs a strong course of Remedial Anglicanism.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:

---

Quoth Fr. Dn. Packiam:
2. What do Anglicans believe?
Anglican theology is, to put it simply, Protestant theology.¹

---

It seems to me that our Father Deacon needs a strong course of Remedial Anglicanism.

---

Wasn't there a Mystery Worshiper report recently about a joint service between an Anglican parish and a Southern Baptist congregation, which reported that the Anglican celebrant at the joint communion service clearly and firmly announced a Zwinglian Memorialist doctrine of communion as the "Protestant" position? My sense is that there's a lot of that amongst these "Anglicans."

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Posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:
It's a blinkered definition of "Protestant" if even Calvin doesn't count.

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quote:

---

But I have to fault a remark that the Revd Shane Copeland made as he pronounced the words of institution over the communion elements. He said that we in the Protestant tradition believe that the bread and wine are reminders of Christ’s sacrifice, but (and he actually smirked as he said the following) that we most definitely do NOT believe that they are the actual body and blood of Christ! It really put me off the rest of the service, and my reaction had been positive up until then. Indeed, communion was administered with the words "A reminder of the body of Christ, broken for you" and "A reminder of the blood of Christ, shed for you."

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"The Supper of the Lord.... is a Sacrament of our Redemption by Christ's death: insomuch that to such as rightly, worthily, and with faith, receive the same, the Bread which we break is a partaking of the Body of Christ; and likewise the Cup of Blessing is a partaking of the Blood of Christ." (Article XXVIII)

NOT "A reminder of the Body/Blood of Christ"!

So much for these "orthodox" Anglicans.

--------------------
שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It wasn't a question of overlap, ken; it's a question of his wrong-headed assertion of the identity of Protestant and Anglican theology.

Remember, the geographical location of this kerfuffle is America. Whatever else the Episcopal Church is, it has an arguably catholic Book of Common Prayer in its 1979 book.

One might try to isolate the alphabet soup of schismatics (AMiA, ANCA, PEARUS, inter alia) from the Anglican Church that is in the United States of America—that is, the Episcopal Church (TEC). But, to make assertions about Anglican identity in America is to speak principally about TEC.

And that, Fr. Dn. Packiam has not done accurately.

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Posted                      

quote:

---

He is studying at Durham University, so any suggestion that he's unclear on that Anglican theology is would cast aspersions on that institution.

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Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:

quote:

---

He is studying at Durham University, so any suggestion that he's unclear on that Anglican theology is would cast aspersions on that institution.

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Seriously?

At least I have my defense next time someone questions my theology: "How DARE you be so RACIST and CLASSIST as to question the integrity of Purdue University!

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