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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why did Jesus cheat?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And walk on the water?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
What did you want him to do? Fly?
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Swim
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And walk on the water?
The disciples took the boat and ditched him. Not cool, dudes.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
He told them to go first. So no problem.
But as for "cheating" ... why not? if I could walk on water, I'd have been a lot drier this past winter. And we're only told he did it once, most likely as a sign and not as a personal benefit.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
How is that cheating? What exam was he sitting for?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Perhaps because the disciples wouldn't have recognised a real miracle if it had jumped into the boat and farted at them.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
You could ask much the same question about any of the miracles. Almost by definition, a miracle involves a suspension or reversal of natural laws, whether it be walking on water; water spontaneously becoming wine; loaves and fishes spontaneously multiplying; dead people getting better; blind people suddenly able to see; instant cure of leprosy; etc. All of them are forms of "cheating" on the natural world.
Perhaps the point of doing miracles, particularly in the presence of the disciples, is to establish his credentials...that "truly this is the Son of God." Why was that needed? Because Jesus needed these people to spread the Good Word--to become witnesses so that others, who did not see the miracles, might still come to believe. And this brings us to good ol' Doubting Thomas, who despite seeing all the miracles, still wants proof. "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe." We who believe in Jesus now are those blessed: believing despite not having seen. And we believe because of the testimony of those who did see--the ones the miracles were performed in front of.
[Edited because I am an idiot. Get used to it.]
[ 28. March 2014, 15:20: Message edited by: Hedgehog ]
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Hedgehog wrote: quote:
You could ask much the same question about any of the miracles. Almost by definition, a miracle involves a suspension or reversal of natural laws, whether it be walking on water; water spontaneously becoming wine; loaves and fishes spontaneously multiplying; dead people getting better; blind people suddenly able to see; instant cure of leprosy; etc. All of them are forms of "cheating" on the natural world.
That's certainly one way of looking at it. I'm not sure it's very helpful though.
Jesus came to preach the kingdom of God, the fulfilment of God's plan to get us back to the garden, etc. All the gospel writers record that it wasn't just some dreary 19th-century style preachy thing, but that things happened - God's eternal kingdom seemed to keep breaking through. In the Kingdom, people don't die, nor do they suffer blindness, leprosy or anything like that. Nor, if the post-resurrection appearances are anything to go by, are they confined by things like time or space. God's kingdom is an eternal kingdom.
No cheating is required. This is the way things should have been, and will be.
If you continue with the narrative, there is of course a point being made in relation to Peter and whether he sees it and has trust in it.
No cheating was required
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
So that Simon who was called Peter could leave us the great prayer "Lord: if it's really you, tell me to come to you on the water"
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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hatless
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# 3365
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Posted
He walked on the water to show that it wasn't there. Across the sea meant in a place where people are different and we don't belong. For God it's all one, this side and that, so Jesus wandered across the water to demonstrate that abroad / overseas / foreign parts is just a stroll. He also quelled the disciples xenophobic panic storm.
It's a very well written story.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
I think it was an acted parable or theophany. The scene reminds me of the passage of Genesis where the Spirit of God broods over the face of the deep. There is also the statement of Jesus "Do not be afraid, it is I" which could be translated in the Greek as "Do not be afraid, I am".
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Jesus could not and would not cheat IMHO. i think it was one of those dreams that seem to speak a truth, and so it was either written down a a truth or because someone somewhere got confused and thought it was literally true. (And also because the boundaries between literal and metaphorical/mythical truth may not have been as closely patrolled then as they are now).
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And walk on the water?
... have you ever been the Holy Land and seen what they charge for a boat across that lake Martin ?
Incidentally that passage converted me some 14 yrs ago . There's something peculiarly atmospheric about it. Things to do with water often are.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Because he didn't want to get his clothes wet?
Curious to know why you think his walking on water was 'cheating'?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
To be dog in the manger, Jesus never did anything that was remotely self-serving. He kept the fairy-god-mother rules of never blessing Himself. Could this one time be an exception?
I'm intrigued that 'He was about to pass by them' according to Mark. Having walked three or four MILES, out to where He's SEEN them, in the dark on the sea?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Hey, Biohazard. As my grandmother used to say, Hold the Phone!
The analysis ought to proceed this way. Most of the actions Jesus performs (there's that pesky word from the Ecclesiantics thread) are performed as profoundly human acts. One could well argue that, in Jesus' kenosis, nothing he does is divine. But, let's prescind from that last statement and look at a human act that Peter performs.
Here is the text from Matt. 14:29: quote:
And he said, Come. And Peter went down from the boat, and walked upon the waters to come to Jesus.
See what the gospel writer does there? He tells us that Peter walked on the water. He apparently didn't get very far, but he did it.
Jesus in his perfect manhood did it better. No cheating needed.
Or, what Honest Ron said.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Yo The Silent (HA!) Acolyte.
Walkin' on water AIN'T human. Fixin' lepers and the eyeless and paraplegics ain't human. Water to wine ... killing a fig tree with a word and stopping a storm with one ... not human.
Preaching the gospel? Standing up for a woman about to get murdered by an establishment mob? ... not human! Transcendent.
Yeah the glow rubbed off like it did on Moses for a while. It's been long, long gone. Apart from in the transcendence. That dim glow remains on us.
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Love wins
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
It could also be seen as an echo of the Genesis text where the Spirit is over the water, and here to is Jesus over the water.
Posts: 103 | From: somewhere over the border | Registered: Apr 2010
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Walkin' on water AIN'T human. Fixin' lepers and the eyeless and paraplegics ain't human. Water to wine ... killing a fig tree with a word and stopping a storm with one ... not human.
No not human .
Which is no doubt why Jesus is saving folks today , and will still be saving them 2000 years hence .
And this from a person (me), who craps on about the 'the historical jesus' blah blah blah.
Yeah no such thing as miracles . He had boards on his feet . He gave Lazarus puffer-fish to knock him out for 4 days . He had a load of bread an fishes stashed away somewhere , (Oh and a couple of stone jars full of quality wine ). He survived the crucifixion, etc. etc. etc.
Yeah, so happy in wallowing my own cynicism .... I don't think so.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nobody wants or needs to be saved. Just loved. That's salvation.
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Love wins
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
He walked on water because he could.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
He could fly but He didn't.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
I don't think so - in the temptations, isn't the suggestion that, if he threw himself off the high point, angels would bear him up? No suggestion of flying there. But if he could walk on water, he would clearly only do it in situations where there was no possible element of showing off.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Martin and others, please engage with what I wrote.
Peter is fully human. He walks on water. Walking on water is a human act.
Jesus is fully human. He walks on water. Walking on water is a human act.
And, what Honest Ron Bacardi said.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
What? Are you fully human? Can you walk on water? The statement appears to be pious nonsense.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
TSA. I did.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
TSA. I did.
Was there a security screening before getting on the boat? What's TSA?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
What? Are you fully human? Can you walk on water? The statement appears to be pious nonsense.
I took that you don't have to be the Son of God to walk on water, but you'll need his help if you end up doing it.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
no prophet. TSA? Look upstream.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Because somebody's got to do it--
Why did Jesus walk on the water? To get to the other side.
[ 29. March 2014, 16:59: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Why did Jesus walk on the water? To get to the other side.
GROOOAAAN!
(although technically it was to get to the middle, innit?)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
no prophet. TSA? Look upstream.
I suspect it may have something to do with atonement, but I did not find TSA with a word search on the present page, nor in an acronym finder and all internet searches using "religion", "christianity" and other additional terms continue to refer to transportation safety. My conclusions is that you do not want to clarify your use of abbreviation, that you don't know either, or it is a typo for PSA, which of course is prostate specific antigen. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
[ 29. March 2014, 18:43: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
In this context, I suspect The Silent Acolyte
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Why did Jesus walk on water? Because he knew one day it would drive YOU mad, lol, he's just fucking with you man.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Why did Jesus walk on the water? To get to the other side.
GROOOAAAN!
(although technically it was to get to the middle, innit?)
Actually Mark's gospel says that he intended to pass them by.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
I think Yonatan is right. The water represents chaos as in Genesis. There is also an allusion to Moses and the Red Sea and a similar story with Joshua.
The church is also pictured as a ship riding on chaos. The disciples need not fear it because Jesus/God is with them. They can even walk on water themselves with Jesus' help. I don't=think it is because we are human that we can ride out chaos, but because Jesus/God is with us to stop us sinking.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
The church is also pictured as a ship riding on chaos.
This is true. One Orthodox[1] title for the church is "the ark of salvation."
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Why did Jesus walk on the water? To get to the other side.
GROOOAAAN!
(although technically it was to get to the middle, innit?)
Actually Mark's gospel says that he intended to pass them by.
So he could be there waiting on the other shore when they arrived, and say, "Ick bün all dor!"[2]
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[1]it could be that others also use this metaphor; not claiming exclusive rights.
[2]"I am already here" -- punchline to a German Märchen[3]
[3]fairy (or folk) tale
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
Thanks mt,
The church as ship (of fools ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) is also an allusion to the safety Noah's ark provides from chaos.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Spend a year on a relatively small boat with all those animals? Think of the stink. Nah...I just assume drown.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Biohazard, The closest you get to an actual response is this, "Yeah the glow rubbed off like it did on Moses for a while." All the rest is just proof by assertion. To which I can respond with gainsaying proof by assertion, when I say that fixing lepers, the eyeless, and paraplegics, killing fig trees, stopping storms, preaching the gospel, and standing up for women are all profoundly human actions.
One still has to deal with the text. Peter walks on water. Peter performs a human act.
There are further texts that ought to be pulled into the discussion.
Mark 11:23: Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him.
John 14:12-14: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
Are you afraid to believe these promises? Or do you merely want to creep up to the ridge of Mt. Nebo and fearfully peer over, before scuttling back down.
leo is onto it when he says that post-lapse, only Jesus is fully human. But, Peter has a hope and belief in his post-lapse destiny: He walked on the water. We can, too.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
It's a Matthean only story. Peter needs to be invited. He loses it when he takes his eyes off Jesus and looks at the wind. The salvation Jesus brings from the chaos gives the disciples the existential experience that He is the Son of God. This does not mean they stop having doubts. Maybe they figuratively take their eyes off Jesus when they later misunderstand His mission and when they deny Him.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Peter has a hope and belief in his post-lapse destiny: He walked on the water. We can, too.
No, we can't. Other than in football chants, is there any evidence anywhere of anyone else even claiming to walk on water?
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The Silent Acolyte. Peace.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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