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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why did Jesus cheat?
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
He walked on the water to show that it wasn't there. Across the sea meant in a place where people are different and we don't belong. For God it's all one, this side and that, so Jesus wandered across the water to demonstrate that abroad / overseas / foreign parts is just a stroll. He also quelled the disciples xenophobic panic storm.
It's a very well written story.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
I think it was an acted parable or theophany. The scene reminds me of the passage of Genesis where the Spirit of God broods over the face of the deep. There is also the statement of Jesus "Do not be afraid, it is I" which could be translated in the Greek as "Do not be afraid, I am".
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Jesus could not and would not cheat IMHO. i think it was one of those dreams that seem to speak a truth, and so it was either written down a a truth or because someone somewhere got confused and thought it was literally true. (And also because the boundaries between literal and metaphorical/mythical truth may not have been as closely patrolled then as they are now).
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And walk on the water?
... have you ever been the Holy Land and seen what they charge for a boat across that lake Martin ?
Incidentally that passage converted me some 14 yrs ago . There's something peculiarly atmospheric about it. Things to do with water often are.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Because he didn't want to get his clothes wet?
Curious to know why you think his walking on water was 'cheating'?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
To be dog in the manger, Jesus never did anything that was remotely self-serving. He kept the fairy-god-mother rules of never blessing Himself. Could this one time be an exception?
I'm intrigued that 'He was about to pass by them' according to Mark. Having walked three or four MILES, out to where He's SEEN them, in the dark on the sea?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Hey, Biohazard. As my grandmother used to say, Hold the Phone!
The analysis ought to proceed this way. Most of the actions Jesus performs (there's that pesky word from the Ecclesiantics thread) are performed as profoundly human acts. One could well argue that, in Jesus' kenosis, nothing he does is divine. But, let's prescind from that last statement and look at a human act that Peter performs.
Here is the text from Matt. 14:29: quote:
And he said, Come. And Peter went down from the boat, and walked upon the waters to come to Jesus.
See what the gospel writer does there? He tells us that Peter walked on the water. He apparently didn't get very far, but he did it.
Jesus in his perfect manhood did it better. No cheating needed.
Or, what Honest Ron said.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Yo The Silent (HA!) Acolyte.
Walkin' on water AIN'T human. Fixin' lepers and the eyeless and paraplegics ain't human. Water to wine ... killing a fig tree with a word and stopping a storm with one ... not human.
Preaching the gospel? Standing up for a woman about to get murdered by an establishment mob? ... not human! Transcendent.
Yeah the glow rubbed off like it did on Moses for a while. It's been long, long gone. Apart from in the transcendence. That dim glow remains on us.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
It could also be seen as an echo of the Genesis text where the Spirit is over the water, and here to is Jesus over the water.
Posts: 103 | From: somewhere over the border | Registered: Apr 2010
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Walkin' on water AIN'T human. Fixin' lepers and the eyeless and paraplegics ain't human. Water to wine ... killing a fig tree with a word and stopping a storm with one ... not human.
No not human .
Which is no doubt why Jesus is saving folks today , and will still be saving them 2000 years hence .
And this from a person (me), who craps on about the 'the historical jesus' blah blah blah.
Yeah no such thing as miracles . He had boards on his feet . He gave Lazarus puffer-fish to knock him out for 4 days . He had a load of bread an fishes stashed away somewhere , (Oh and a couple of stone jars full of quality wine ). He survived the crucifixion, etc. etc. etc.
Yeah, so happy in wallowing my own cynicism .... I don't think so.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nobody wants or needs to be saved. Just loved. That's salvation.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
He walked on water because he could.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
He could fly but He didn't.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
I don't think so - in the temptations, isn't the suggestion that, if he threw himself off the high point, angels would bear him up? No suggestion of flying there. But if he could walk on water, he would clearly only do it in situations where there was no possible element of showing off.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Martin and others, please engage with what I wrote.
Peter is fully human. He walks on water. Walking on water is a human act.
Jesus is fully human. He walks on water. Walking on water is a human act.
And, what Honest Ron Bacardi said.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
What? Are you fully human? Can you walk on water? The statement appears to be pious nonsense.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
TSA. I did.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
TSA. I did.
Was there a security screening before getting on the boat? What's TSA?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
What? Are you fully human? Can you walk on water? The statement appears to be pious nonsense.
I took that you don't have to be the Son of God to walk on water, but you'll need his help if you end up doing it.
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
no prophet. TSA? Look upstream.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Because somebody's got to do it--
Why did Jesus walk on the water? To get to the other side.
[ 29. March 2014, 16:59: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Why did Jesus walk on the water? To get to the other side.
GROOOAAAN!
(although technically it was to get to the middle, innit?)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
no prophet. TSA? Look upstream.
I suspect it may have something to do with atonement, but I did not find TSA with a word search on the present page, nor in an acronym finder and all internet searches using "religion", "christianity" and other additional terms continue to refer to transportation safety. My conclusions is that you do not want to clarify your use of abbreviation, that you don't know either, or it is a typo for PSA, which of course is prostate specific antigen. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
[ 29. March 2014, 18:43: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
In this context, I suspect The Silent Acolyte
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Why did Jesus walk on water? Because he knew one day it would drive YOU mad, lol, he's just fucking with you man.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Why did Jesus walk on the water? To get to the other side.
GROOOAAAN!
(although technically it was to get to the middle, innit?)
Actually Mark's gospel says that he intended to pass them by.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
I think Yonatan is right. The water represents chaos as in Genesis. There is also an allusion to Moses and the Red Sea and a similar story with Joshua.
The church is also pictured as a ship riding on chaos. The disciples need not fear it because Jesus/God is with them. They can even walk on water themselves with Jesus' help. I don't=think it is because we are human that we can ride out chaos, but because Jesus/God is with us to stop us sinking.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
The church is also pictured as a ship riding on chaos.
This is true. One Orthodox[1] title for the church is "the ark of salvation."
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Why did Jesus walk on the water? To get to the other side.
GROOOAAAN!
(although technically it was to get to the middle, innit?)
Actually Mark's gospel says that he intended to pass them by.
So he could be there waiting on the other shore when they arrived, and say, "Ick bün all dor!"[2]
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[1]it could be that others also use this metaphor; not claiming exclusive rights.
[2]"I am already here" -- punchline to a German Märchen[3]
[3]fairy (or folk) tale
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
Thanks mt,
The church as ship (of fools ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) is also an allusion to the safety Noah's ark provides from chaos.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Spend a year on a relatively small boat with all those animals? Think of the stink. Nah...I just assume drown.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Biohazard, The closest you get to an actual response is this, "Yeah the glow rubbed off like it did on Moses for a while." All the rest is just proof by assertion. To which I can respond with gainsaying proof by assertion, when I say that fixing lepers, the eyeless, and paraplegics, killing fig trees, stopping storms, preaching the gospel, and standing up for women are all profoundly human actions.
One still has to deal with the text. Peter walks on water. Peter performs a human act.
There are further texts that ought to be pulled into the discussion.
Mark 11:23: Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him.
John 14:12-14: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
Are you afraid to believe these promises? Or do you merely want to creep up to the ridge of Mt. Nebo and fearfully peer over, before scuttling back down.
leo is onto it when he says that post-lapse, only Jesus is fully human. But, Peter has a hope and belief in his post-lapse destiny: He walked on the water. We can, too.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
It's a Matthean only story. Peter needs to be invited. He loses it when he takes his eyes off Jesus and looks at the wind. The salvation Jesus brings from the chaos gives the disciples the existential experience that He is the Son of God. This does not mean they stop having doubts. Maybe they figuratively take their eyes off Jesus when they later misunderstand His mission and when they deny Him.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Peter has a hope and belief in his post-lapse destiny: He walked on the water. We can, too.
No, we can't. Other than in football chants, is there any evidence anywhere of anyone else even claiming to walk on water?
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The Silent Acolyte. Peace.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Peter has a hope and belief in his post-lapse destiny: He walked on the water. We can, too.
No, we can't. Other than in football chants, is there any evidence anywhere of anyone else even claiming to walk on water?
You are missing the point. Humans can walk on water if God gives them the power. Jesus tells the disciples that they would do greater things than they witnessed Jesus do. Walking on water isn't something God needs to do. God is omnipresent. An omnipresent God has no need to travel.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Peter has a hope and belief in his post-lapse destiny: He walked on the water. We can, too.
No, we can't. Other than in football chants, is there any evidence anywhere of anyone else even claiming to walk on water?
You are missing the point. Humans can walk on water if God gives them the power. Jesus tells the disciples that they would do greater things than they witnessed Jesus do.
No, you're missing the point. We can't walk on water or fly. There is no evidence that God has ever given anyone the power to do either of these things, other than this one story - which, even if it were literally true, doesn't really count, as Jesus was there in person to assist.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Apparently we have not quite put away childish things.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
QLib. Absolutely. Nobody has since. And won't. Not this side of being dead. On the flying front, Jesus was tempted to throw Himself off and let God do the intervening. If He could walk on water, He could fly. There's no difference in category. If He could be buoyed up against the laws of physics on sea He could be in air. OK walk on air. Flying would involve miraculous thrust. Just sayin'.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
But in the air, no traction beneath one's feet to move forward. He could hover, maybe.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
miraculous thrust
Must ....... not....... make....... joke.......
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
miraculous thrust
Must ....... not....... make....... joke.......
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No. Must not. Sorry for my naïveté. Just DON'T.
Hmmm. The water must have resisted Him laterally, with friction surely? Just upthrust or reactive force to His weight wouldn't be enough. Without ... supernatural thrust He could have very slowly swum in air if He hovered. Or like the water, the air could have become laterally frictive where he stood? If He could walk on air, He could run and fly. But where is the boundary layer? Wherever the bottom of His foot rests? So what happens when He dives forwards? Or backflips? Tricky this theology isn't it?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It is clear that Jesus had the same trick that Legolas and the Elves do, for treading lightly over snow and water and rock. What a pity they didn't do archery combat in Galilee, eh?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It is clear that Jesus had the same trick that Legolas and the Elves do, for treading lightly over snow and water and rock. What a pity they didn't do archery combat in Galilee, eh?
I think the Judean People's Front actually did.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Peter has a hope and belief in his post-lapse destiny: He walked on the water. We can, too.
No, we can't. Other than in football chants, is there any evidence anywhere of anyone else even claiming to walk on water?
You are missing the point. Humans can walk on water if God gives them the power. Jesus tells the disciples that they would do greater things than they witnessed Jesus do.
No, you're missing the point. We can't walk on water or fly. There is no evidence that God has ever given anyone the power to do either of these things, other than this one story - which, even if it were literally true, doesn't really count, as Jesus was there in person to assist.
So?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Apparently we have not quite put away childish things.
If by childish things you mean pseudo-rationalsm, I agree.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But in the air, no traction beneath one's feet to move forward. He could hover, maybe.
Rather like St. Mary of Egypt. Isn't she coming up in the calendar soon?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But in the air, no traction beneath one's feet to move forward. He could hover, maybe.
Rather like St. Mary of Egypt. Isn't she coming up in the calendar soon?
This Thursday.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044
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Posted
Jesus walked on the water to show that he was God (see Ps.77:16-20 especially v19) and to show that he was Lord of all creation.
This understanding then causes a possible difficulty when it comes to Peter also walking on the water, but it could be that the action thereby shows human authority over creation (the godly expression of which is stewardship, not the ungodly expression which is exploitation) and this stewardship can only be continued while a relationship is maintained with the Lord from whom the authority is derived - Jesus.
As for why Jesus did it, well, why not? It is his prerogative to demonstrate his lordship in any way he wishes to.
Just a thought.
Angus
Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
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