Thread: How much do YOU love and adore beautiful Jesus? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
...
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Never enough.
 

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Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
Lord, it is my chief complaint
that my love is weak and faint;
Yet I love thee, and adore;
O for grace to love thee more!

William Cowper
Salvation Army Song Book 110
underlined by me
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Not sure that I do really. 'beautiful' puts me off - not very manly.

But I do share his passion for the poor so do i still qualify?
 

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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
Well, that's three excellent companies I'm in. Four counting Cowper.
 

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Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
I think I would find Christianity a very cold affair if there were not heartfelt affection for the person of Christ who dwells within.
 

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
Not sure that I do really. 'beautiful' puts me off - not very manly.

But I do share his passion for the poor so do i still qualify?

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Why the need for a stereotypical view of manliness?
 

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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
Jade, I'm a 60 year late feminist BLOKE, so can we be real here? I know leo said it. But he said what ALLLLLLL blokes FEEL. Even my EQ genius, feminist ... wife ... feels it. AND I sing it with gusto JUST to challenge all my conditioning. AND what I'm really getting at IS covered by the other responses above.

So there will be plenty of right-on women here, as well as yourself, but who DON'T adore beautiful Jesus either.

Kittens and babies are adorable ...

I adore my male children. I adore my wife. I adore my Mum. My mate Paul the cop. I LOVE him. Just exploring it here and now. Could I say, "Paul", who looks like an EDL heavy, "I adore you mate.". Saying that, I could. I'll have to try it won't I?! But the adoration 'due' to Jesus seems to go beyond all that.

I can't see myself, hear myself, saying it to Him. ... Well I just did. It didn't feel completely silly ...

We sing these desperate, contemporarily love-sick sounding lyrics, "Receive our adoration.", which seem actually to be from another culture. A pre-modern one.

The Jesus of the Bible is a most fascinating, awesome, strange, courageous, ornery, lovely, complex, honourable, decent, kind, good, challenging person. I get choked up reading about Him time and again. And all manner of other reactions. Asking Him, Lord, WHY did you say that? What did You mean? What DO You mean?

I get teared up now. I discussed it with the little woman. She said to imagine Him walking with us right then. I acknowledge Him present right now, sitting ... in the overlapping hyper-reality, on the edge of the bed. I nod and look away. And get very moved. To the point of panic and repression. I'm bringing a LOT to the party here, including my intrusive thoughts, which don't put Him ... my projection of Him ... off in the slightest of course.

I 'get on' with Him best when I talk straight with Him, early in the morning between shifts, trying to establish a coherent narrative of my incoherent feelings, thoughts, concerns. As if He were my friend, my silently nodding Zen analyst. As my Lord, with all of the ancient resonance of that. One can adore, fear a Lord. A kingly, other, fey, majestic being, crackling with power and benevolence. I had the stupendous privilege of being in St. Paul's yesterday for Easter Sunday. The choir and organ were utterly spine tingling. I felt the earthquake in my polluted, writhing, sewerine, unworthily loved heart.

...

I know, I know, all too whimsical and intimate and broken and more Heaven the Purgatory in most ways. All terribly 'inappropriate' I'm sure.

I feel ALL that. Does that come under the umbrella of these absurdly aspirational Arthurian, Tolkeinesque, deeply viscerally Freudian romance notions?

This REALLY doesn't look appropriate, coherent, helpful. I keep wanting to edit it, indent it. Where are The Father and The Holy Spirit? In 'Lord' too.

What does the Lord want of us in terms of adoration? In terms of love?

The social gospeller, gospeleer in me - by the Spirit? - says adore Me in unloved, unlovable 'Eugene' at church. In every human face. In madly grieving irrational Korean parents. In frightening frightened Ukrainian and Russian nationalists.

Hmmm. I'll HAVE to talk to Him about that!

Sorry everyone!
 

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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
Bugger: more Heaven thAN Purgatory
 

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Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
No, some of us talk like this in Purg.
Then other people pass over it (sorry it's Pessach so the word tripped off my tongue)
Then a few posts down or in a PM someone says it has struck a chord with them.
 

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Posted by Russ (# 120) on :
 
Martin,

you're trying to express something that many,
particularly males,
particularly English males,
particularly English males of a certain age,
find difficult because we lack a rich vocabulary of feeling.

But even in our emotional inarticulacy we can recognise the common-usage meaning of "love" and "adore" as inadequate. As you say, puppies are adorable. And "love" is too often just a stronger version of "like". Click here to love Jesus...

The new translation of the Mass has "adore" where the previous had "worship". "Worship" to me is less-inadequate.

Best wishes mate,

Russ
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
I admire Him. Does that count?
 

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
I love Jesus, as He love me and all others. And the children love "Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so."

Also God helps me regularly to do things and behave sensibly.

Thank you, God !
 

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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
Thank you daisymay. Lovely. You are a blessing.

Aye Chorister, it counts (real, true, honest), YOU count. I'm sure He admires you back

Russ. Yeah. Nod. Smile through pursed lips. Whatever that means!

And Galilit. As for Russ! But different.

Talk about emotionally inarticulate!
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Russ:
Martin,

you're trying to express something that many,
particularly males,
particularly English males,
particularly English males of a certain age,
find difficult because we lack a rich vocabulary of feeling.

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quote:

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I love Jesus, but it feels very weak. I'm like the man who said 'I believe; help my unbelief' (Mark 9:24). It's easier to think of myself as resting in his love, because what I have to offer in return will always seem hopelessly inadequate.

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quote:

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He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
(Isaiah 53.2-3, NIV)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Beautiful Jesus? What, you mean this guy? -

quote:

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He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
(Isaiah 53.2-3, NIV)

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(And yes, I'm aware that Isaiah, whoever he was, wasn't talking about Jesus, whoever he was; but Tradition has established the link.)

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No, not Tradition; Jesus himself established the link and Philip unequivocally confirmed it.
 

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Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :
 
Jesus is not a cuddly Teddy Bear. The one who we love and adore tells us to "take up our cross and follow Him."

Christianity is not about warm fuzzy feelings about Jesus.
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
You mean I can't have warm and fuzzy feelings about Jesus?
 

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Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
Of course you can.

Jesus is your boyfriend.
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
Not sure that I do really. 'beautiful' puts me off - not very manly.

But I do share his passion for the poor so do i still qualify?

---

Why the need for a stereotypical view of manliness?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Of course you can.

Jesus is your boyfriend.

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quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
child of a single parent, living in an occupied territory and all that.

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... hanging around down by the docks, chatting up sailors ...
 

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Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :
 
But some of the current attempts to create masculine expressions of Jesus in church (to bring in the men) are ridiculous. You have "muscular Christianity," "fighter Jesus" (with mixed-martial-arts invoked in the preaching), and "Cowboy Church" - which also attracts rustic rural women. I don't think Church has become highly feminized (although there has been some influence from the shift in demographics where more congregations are majority female). I think the greater phenomenon is that masculinity in the west has felt challenged by feminism and the gay rights movement so straight men (and gay men who want to stay in the closet) feel a need to avoid anything that seems feminine in any way - and the list of "girly" things has grown over time to include a lot of church atmospheres that were pretty normal for both sexes a few decades ago.

Also, Jesus is the bridegroom of the Church. I think men are missing out if they do not allow themselves to fall in love with the idea of Jesus coming as our lover to claim us. If straight men say that it's just not right to think of Jesus as romantically wooing them as individuals (although girls may think that), then I would think that leaves Evangelical straight Christian men at a loss, since they can't make up for it with a devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary or the female saints .
 

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Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
Muscular Christianity began in Victorian England and came out of the Broad Church faction within the Church of England. Hard to see how that has anything to do with either gay rights or feminism. Cowboy Churches are as much about class as gender. Cowboy churches are prominent in places like Texas that have real live cowboys. Their lifestyle is very different from that of people who go to churches in town. Yes, to some degree, charismatic worship probably doesn't appeal to them either. However, most of the larger churches serve a nice and respectable hymn sandwich on Sunday morning. What's feminine about that?
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
I once remarked ( about Uma Thurman, of all people) that some people fit the definition of beauty, and some people redefine beauty.

Jesus , as portrayed in the Gospels, is the living, breathing demonstration of this idea. He finds beauty in a Roman soldier's gruff demurral . He finds beauty in some short guy climbing a tree. He finds beauty in a woman giving a sloppy emotional display at his feet at a party. He finds beauty in weedy mustard plants, housewives sweeping, mothers nagging judges.

I tend to believe he was a perfectly average, normal looking guy who grew beautiful the more he talked-- you know the type. And I am less concerned with whether or not people in his world might have considered him beautiful than I am in letting Him teach me what beauty really is.
 

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Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Like it's too much for me to ask for him to look at me, but if I could just touch the robe and get some sense of his presence...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Jesus is not a cuddly Teddy Bear. (...)
Christianity is not about warm fuzzy feelings about Jesus.

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quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
Because most blokes, myself included, are put off by this stuff - which is why women vastly outnumber men in churches.

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Believe me Leo, one does not have to be a bloke to be very much put off by this sort of fluffyspeak.

And I fail to understand why "manliness" is something to be condemned (or negatively commented upon). I find it quite necessary as a countervailing force to much of what goes on in church.

On a more theological note, emotionally laden language such as "love and adore" and "beautiful Jesus" carries a whiff of the overly Christocentric (ie somewhat de-emphasise the other two aspects of the Trinity) approach I find worrying. Jesus ain't no rock star, folks.

And yes, I know, most of this is cultural. Some people go in for that sort of language. Where I come from (rural Westphalia) people would find this fluffy language extremely silly and no theologian, RC or Lutheran (there isn't much else in that neck of the woods), would dream of using it when addressing a congregation. And we don't do hand-holding, either

 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Here's me being all gendery again, but I have wondered if the (very recent, culturally unique from a historical perspective) trend toward censuring men from passionate expression of religious devotion is part of what amplifies objectification of women. Because men are taught that it's weird to get all mushy in church-- and again, I am going to point out that in most cultures and for most of history, men have lead the fervent outpouring of devotion, so "taught" is the appropriate word--they lack an appropriate outlet for that fervor, so it winds up getting dumped into romantic relationships. Which us a recipe for disappointment, but that's another thread.

[ 22. April 2014, 17:58: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

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Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
it won't be the first time that people have wondered if Jesus was gay. And that would fit with his outcaste status - child of a single parent, living in an occupied territory and all that.

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He wasn't the child of a single parent. he had a father figure.

And being born in an occupied country makes you gay?

LOL
 

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Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
Catherine Booth, the wife of General William Booth of The Salvation Army wrote papers and articles under the heading 'Agressive Christianity.
 

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Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :
 
I would not relate "manliness" to "aggressivity".
To me, manliness is related to terms like straightforward, fearless, serious, no-fluff, strong, solid.
Not bad as attributes of Christianity.
 

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Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
it won't be the first time that people have wondered if Jesus was gay. And that would fit with his outcaste status - child of a single parent, living in an occupied territory and all that.

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He wasn't the child of a single parent. he had a father figure.

And being born in an occupied country makes you gay?

LOL

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quote:

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Muscular Christianity began in Victorian England and came out of the Broad Church faction within the Church of England. Hard to see how that has anything to do with either gay rights or feminism. Cowboy Churches are as much about class as gender. Cowboy churches are prominent in places like Texas that have real live cowboys. Their lifestyle is very different from that of people who go to churches in town. Yes, to some degree, charismatic worship probably doesn't appeal to them either. However, most of the larger churches serve a nice and respectable hymn sandwich on Sunday morning. What's feminine about that?

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You caught me jumbling a bunch of different ideas together and I apologize for it. Muscular Christianity was a reaction to the perceived effeminacy of Victorian religion.

Cowboy Church is about a different culture than suburban upper-middle-class megachurches - but based on the conversation that introduced the concept to me, in which the male Cowboy Church member went on about the effeminacy of normal churches - there certainly is a gender role component for some of the male attendees of these churches. I also said that some women also find Cowboy Churches more in line with their culture.

The phenomenon that is most recent and that is a direct response targeted at men to the perceived women-centeredness of modern evangelicalism is what I called the "fighter Jesus" movement. An example is the marketing campaign, "Jesus didn't tap"

http://www.chron.com/life/houston-belief/article/Jesus-as-the-ultimate-ultimate-fighter-1599269.php

There are new churches targeting men based on a warrior ethos. It's nothing entirely new: think of the Templars, Hospitallers, Teutonics, and of the Jesuits. But turning Jesus into an action movie hero seems like even more of a stretch than turning him into a hippie. Christ will always be preached through the filter of the culture of the place and time, but marketing has infected Church-leadership culture to the point that we really seem to be making God in our own image. This isn't anything new and touchy-feely liberal Christianity is guilty of it as well. It just humors me that men would think that "UFC Jesus" is any more authentic than the sandal-shod sensitive "boyfriend Jesus" that turns them away.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Here's the thing-- for 2, 000 years, the main thing that has drawn people to Christianity is that guy in the Gospels. Why are we "marketing"him, anyway? He does a great job of marketing himself. And he has a maddening way of slipping out of those templates we try to shove him into. Maybe instead of battling templates, we should take more cues from the original.

If you try to make Jesus into a hippie, you have to contend with the fact that he turned over tables, killed innocent trees for rhetorical flourish, and promised dire judgement to folk who pissed him off. If you want him to be Vin Diesel, you have to contend with the fact that he blathered about love, love, love all the damn time, described himself as a hen for God's sake, and that half of his bosom buddies were girls. Oh, and he let some dude cuddle up with him at a dinner party. ( that's another thing about our culture-- middle eastern men have traditionally had no problem cuddling and hugging and hand- holding and dancing together and doing a bunch of other stuff we have no business calling"girly." The problem is not masculinity or femininity, the problem is over defining those terms in a way that overrides fundamental humanity. )

[ 22. April 2014, 19:49: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

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Posted by The Kat in the Hat (# 2557) on :
 
Kelly
 

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Posted by PaulTH* (# 320) on :
 
I've been reading the autobiography of St Therese of Lisieux, The Story of a Soul. I wish I could adore the beautiful Jesus as she did. But she died of tuberculosis at 24, and probably spent much of her short life anticipating going to Him. Such piety often goes with sickly health, as in Saint Faustina Kowalska who suffered a similar fate. But we try!
 

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Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :
 
@PaulTH: To each his own. Even within Carmelite spirituality there are different tunes. My own favourite is St Teresa of Avila's "The Book of my Life". Her relationship to Jesus is very much like one between two grown-ups being best friends. No sweet language thre at all.
It's one of my favourite spiritual books by the way. No nonsense and deep. Even tinged with delicious irony at the follies of the world in some parts.
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
And being born in an occupied country makes you gay?

LOL

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