Ship of Fools: Paintings release redemption: official

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

The Bethel mob are at it again.

Head of Creative Arts at Bethel's Creative Supernatural School of Ministry Theresa Dedmon has produced a painting.

It's quite nice, and some of the other creative stuff looks not entirely horrible. I'm even keen to see more Christian art in general.

But... she affirms the following about that piece:

quote:
This painting releases God's redemption of France. Remembering the incredible legacy of creativity. Once you see it you will see the seeds of renaissance begin again.

Since when did protestants of any stripe believe a few daubs of paint "release redemption"? And of an entire nation? Do any Catholics or Orthodox affirm anything like that?? And just how arrogant is it to assert that about your own piece of art? How can people believe this crap? To the Law and to the testimony!

[Mad]

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Poppies? They would look fine in my kitchen, but jeez, "God's redemption of France"? [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

It's not just paintings you know (and do make time to read the comments below the article - yuck!)

Didn't you know that prophetic drumming (other websites are available!) also has the power to "release captives" and break down "strongholds"?

Allegedly ...

Posted by The Rhythm Methodist (# 17064) on :

I think that painting will indeed achieve its purpose - it will reinforce Theresa's conviction that she is a world-class mover and shaker in the kingdom of God. This is just yet another manifestation of the hyper-charismatic obsession with self. Life is all about them...and how God uses them. That's why there are so many fake interactions with the Holy Spirit, so many made-up manifestations - so many 'spiritual gifts' which are unverifiable. Changing the world through art is just another way that people can maintain the illusion that God is using them....without ever becoming people he could actually use.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Well if you're that mediocre an artist you've got to have some hook - most sensible people get told not to give up the day job.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

I make some religious art, and I hope the Spirit is using my skills for her good purposes. But really, I trust the Godhead to have the Redemption stuff under control without any overweening help from myself.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

I assumed it was about the economic renaissance of rural Afghanistan

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Indeed. That's where it's tipping into witchcraft as far as I'm concerned.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I assumed it was about the economic renaissance of rural Afghanistan

Or of North Norfolk.

PS I think Eutychus's post refers back to LydaRose's and not Zappa's!

[ 22. June 2014, 08:04: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Just to clarify: I have nothing against Afghanistan (although one does wonder just what poppies evoke for most people these days). My reply was directed at Lyda Rose's comment.

[ETA as BT has pointed out. Off to church now, will have to try hard not to mention this when preaching...]

[ 22. June 2014, 08:05: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

I love the way the first link unashamedly states that she majors in psychology and minors in Biblical Studies [Two face]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

I'm planning an interpretative dance for Slovenia, but it's annoying how much that gets in the way of my Piano Concerto for Ecuador.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

(a pedant writes:)

Opium poppies are mauvey-purple. Unlike those ones in the picture which are the same colour as bollocks.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Actually, I think there is a logical reason why the more conservative evangelical world has to apply these spiritual meanings to their art.

It comes from the (misunderstood) puritan idea that art is bad (not least because some artists might live alternative lifestyles).

As they started to be forced to accept the artistic, they needed to find "spiritual" reasons for it - so they made it a spiritual power exercise. Suddenly is was like other acceptable stuff, so they could accept it.

This is, of course, crap. Artists should be able to create because they are expressing the creative in them. End of. Hopefully, if they know about their faith, they know God, then this faith will be expressed in their art. It may serve to inspire others, to help them to engage with God.

Of course, it may also cause them to be vomit. Reaction is important.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm planning an interpretative dance for Slovenia, but it's annoying how much that gets in the way of my Piano Concerto for Ecuador.

Me, I'm knitting for Uzbekistan.

I've heard some fluff-brained tarradiddle in my time, but the idea that mucking up a bit of paper or canvas affects the religious outlook of a nation is off the wacko-meter.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Schroedinger's Cat

That's an interesting point, as modern art became pretty non-religious, although it may be very spiritual. So, possibly some Christians feel uneasy with modern art, and can't connect it with their faith. Everybody quotes Rothko here, for example, the Rothko room at the Tate, quite a reflective space.

[ 22. June 2014, 10:11: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Actually, I think there is a logical reason why the more conservative evangelical world has to apply these spiritual meanings to their art.

It comes from the (misunderstood) puritan idea that art is bad (not least because some artists might live alternative lifestyles).

As they started to be forced to accept the artistic, they needed to find "spiritual" reasons for it - so they made it a spiritual power exercise. Suddenly is was like other acceptable stuff, so they could accept it.

The spiritual reasoning is precisely what the Puritans did not like about art. This would simply be classed by them as idolatry. The reason for avoiding art is precisely because people get these dangerous ideas.

Art is dangerous/potent, not bad, in Puritan thought because it can lead to such superstitious ideas.

Jengie

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Schroedinger's Cat

That's an interesting point, as modern art became pretty non-religious, although it may be very spiritual. So, possibly some Christians feel uneasy with modern art, and can't connect it with their faith. Everybody quotes Rothko here, for example, the Rothko room at the Tate, quite a reflective space.

Is modern art more non-religious than - say - Victorian art? I don't know, but it seems to me that by then the concept or "religious art" had become a thing in itself, a separate genre. I guess unless something is now "religious art" (whatever that now means), it's just art, whether the artist was inspired by any religious concerns or not.

Does the concept of religious art exist at all in eastern European countries? Icon painters don't call themselves artists do they? Maybe "art" has its original meaning there, as in "the best thing I can produce".

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I once asked an Orthodox online friend (rather than a real-life one) how the Bethel practice of going to the graves of revivalist luminaries such as Evan Roberts to somehow 'absorb the anointing' and such like hoo-ey differed from the Orthodox and RC practice of venerating relics and sites associated with Saints.

He suggested that it was an issue of attitude and response that was the biggest difference - rather than intention. So, for instance, he sent me a link to You Tube footage of something-or-other (I forget what it was, whether an icon or a relic) arriving in Constantinople and being taken to the Phanar. The Orthodox faithful lined the streets and venerated the object in a dignified way.

They weren't flinging themselves onto it and acting in an 'enthusiastic' way.

Of course, from a Puritan perspective their actions would be just as dangerous as those of the Bethel-ites ... but then the Puritans could be kill-joys couldn't they? [Big Grin]

And yes, yes ... I know that they didn't have hang-ups about sex and Cromwell allowed dancing at his daughter's wedding yadda yadda ...

But I'm still more comfortable with George Herbert's approach in allowing old customs such as Rogationtide processions and so on rather than the Puritan one of tearing these things in a root-and-branch type way.

There are some examples of Puritan art around, of course - in Manchester Art Gallery and plenty of examples in the Metropolitan Museum in New York - some of it has a genuinely moving, home-spun quality about it. It ain't all bad art.

As for this Bethel instance ... it's bad art and it's even worse theology.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Schroedinger's Cat

That's an interesting point, as modern art became pretty non-religious, although it may be very spiritual. So, possibly some Christians feel uneasy with modern art, and can't connect it with their faith. Everybody quotes Rothko here, for example, the Rothko room at the Tate, quite a reflective space.
Is modern art more non-religious than - say - Victorian art? I don't know, but it seems to me that by then the concept or "religious art" had become a thing in itself, a separate genre. I guess unless something is now "religious art" (whatever that now means), it's just art, whether the artist was inspired by any religious concerns or not.

Does the concept of religious art exist at all in eastern European countries? Icon painters don't call themselves artists do they? Maybe "art" has its original meaning there, as in "the best thing I can produce".

I suppose traditionally you would say that painting became more secularized in the 18th century. I remember John Berger saying that the bourgeoisie didn't want paintings of God or Christ, but themselves, their wives, kids and dogs! A good example is 'Mr and Mrs Andrews' (Gainsborough), and here you also get a nice shot of their property.

But religious paintings continue to be painted - for example, the Dutch masters, such as Vermeer and de Hoogh, who are famous for their interiors and courtyards, also still did religious subjects.

Also, obviously, the pre-Raphaelites did.

I just meant that 20th century painting became very secular, with obvious exceptions, e.g. Stanley Spencer. I suppose you could argue that it became secular but also numinous? Thus someone like Picasso is very secular, but arguably monumental, numinous and pantheistic.

[ 22. June 2014, 14:10: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

Despite being someone who has thoroughly drunk the spiritual gifts kool-aid, my reaction to this painting is pretty similar to y'all upthread.

However, if only she'd said something like 'I painted this as a prayer for redemption of France and a release of spiritual renaissance', I think I'd have smiled, shrugged and moved on. That approach of praying for whole nations is a bit too grandiose for my taste but hey, each to their own.

But 'This painting releases God's redemption of France' is just so outrageously... presumptuous. It sits very uncomfortably with me.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

In my previous post, it should say that painting became more secularized in the 17th and 18th centuries.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

South Coast Kevin:

quote:
'I painted this as a prayer for redemption of France and a release of spiritual renaissance'

I could get behind this, definitely. Prayer for positive goals is a Good Thing. Hubris, not so much.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
South Coast Kevin:
quote:
'I painted this as a prayer for redemption of France and a release of spiritual renaissance'
I could get behind this, definitely. Prayer for positive goals is a Good Thing. Hubris, not so much.

Absolutely - art as a focus for prayer and spiritual engagement I am all for. Not worship of art, but worship inspired by art.

In response to comments above - I think the problem is with non-religious art, art that challenges and inspires us as people, and the incipient danger in that. The stuff I prefer, in general.

I suspect that many of those who struggle with "art" have much less problem with the sappy, puke-inducing drivel of Thomas Kincade and the like. Personally, I prefer art that impacts my heart, not my stomach.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Man. I looked at those so-called prophetic pictures and I am having a really, really hard time holding in the snark.

And prophetic drumming. What scares me is that I can just see these people ten years down the line, when real life has hit them hard, right in the face, and I'm afraid their faith is going to completely vanish. It looks like a delusion to me. They need a strong dose of reality if they're going to develop a Christian faith that will last long term. (wish I could take them round the metro area for a week or two, shadowing a pastor)

Posted by Twangist (# 16208) on :

Prophetic balloon modelling anybody?

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Sure, I agree with that too, South Coast Kevin. I'll get criticised for using this phrase, but it's a paradigmatic case of over-egging the pudding.

As with all these things, the claim could contain a smidgeon of something wholesome - that art is potent and can have something of broadly 'redemptive' effect (not in soteriology terms of course but in terms of transformation of some kind - even if it is only to make us feel better about the world ...).

In this instance, neither the art itself nor the rhetoric lives up to the claims being made.

Posted by Kyzyl (# 374) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Schroedinger's Cat

That's an interesting point, as modern art became pretty non-religious, although it may be very spiritual. So, possibly some Christians feel uneasy with modern art, and can't connect it with their faith. Everybody quotes Rothko here, for example, the Rothko room at the Tate, quite a reflective space.

The Rothko Chapel in Houston is a deeply spiritual place but there is nothing exclusively Christian about it.

[ 22. June 2014, 20:34: Message edited by: Kyzyl ]

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
Prophetic balloon modelling anybody?

You tell me. Is Bethel and prophetic balloon-modelling strictly spiritually incorrect in Newfrontiers these days? Inquiring minds want to know...

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The Bethel mob are at it again.

Head of Creative Arts at Bethel's Creative Supernatural School of Ministry Theresa Dedmon has produced a painting.

It's quite nice, and some of the other creative stuff looks not entirely horrible. I'm even keen to see more Christian art in general.

But... she affirms the following about that piece:
quote:
This painting releases God's redemption of France. Remembering the incredible legacy of creativity. Once you see it you will see the seeds of renaissance begin again.
Since when did protestants of any stripe believe a few daubs of paint "release redemption"? And of an entire nation? Do any Catholics or Orthodox affirm anything like that?? And just how arrogant is it to assert that about your own piece of art? How can people believe this crap? To the Law and to the testimony!

I'm an artist, and I'm struggling to find words to express my seething fury at this "releasing redemption" crap.

Perhaps an absinthe or two might help.

[ 22. June 2014, 20:50: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Now that Eutychus mentions it, just how influential is Bethel these days?

I've not heard anything about them for a while and that only on these boards.

Are they still a big influence on the wider charismatic evangelical scene?

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm planning an interpretative dance for Slovenia, ...

Just don't do as a priest of another diocese did at their 150th anniversary and do the dance clad in lycra. He was rather overweight and the sight was...odd. And though you, as I recall, are not overweight, and a reasonably fine figure of a man (so my wife says)...no lycra.

But dance on...Slovenia can use all the help it can get.

John

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

Prophetic art, prophetic dance, prophetic drumming - I think what they are calling "prophetic music" is what anyone else calls "improvised" music played in a religious context (but I might be wrong) --
Looking back on my somewhat mis-spent youth, I do remember the desire to *do something big* and *make a difference* and *change the world*, you know, back before career and mortgage and diapers and retirement savings (and the church needing repairs again).

That's how I see claims to "release the prophetic on France" or claims to "take San Francisco for Jesus" - exuberant youthful desire to affect huge parts of the world for good.

Learning to see and value the effectiveness for good in bringing a meal to a shut-in or teaching a child how to ride a bicycle, takes time to grow some maturity. Nothing wrong with being youthful with world-sized dreams. It's a valid phase, probably healthier to go through a phase of world sized dreams than never learn how to dream at all but just slog dully through life.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

The poppies would go nicely on a greeting card for a funeral. A good choice for a deceased 90 year who served in France in WW2. Otherwise the art itself is cliché. We all did pictures like this in grade 5 near Remembrance Day.

The real problem with the response and the context of the art is the sense of elation the artist derives. Where her feelings are more important than the qualities of the painting. It is pure sap and sentiment. I am reminded of Kurt Vonnegut's picture of an asshole, which is actually art, even though Vonnegut probably was expressing emotion when he drew it.

While I'm at it, too full of tea and too full up with the same stories about pigeons told to me for the 4th time, here's a Vonnegut quote to prove I am actually semi-mature:

quote:
"Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne."

<edit: pecker head suck crap bracket shite>

[ 23. June 2014, 02:57: Message edited by: no prophet ]

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

All this painting proves is that when you think things can't get any worse, someone will come along and show you that there are still greater depths of banality and stupidity to which Christians can go.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kyzyl:
The Rothko Chapel in Houston is a deeply spiritual place but there is nothing exclusively Christian about it.

Not a big Rothko fan, but this I like.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Now that Eutychus mentions it, just how influential is Bethel these days?

I've not heard anything about them for a while and that only on these boards.

Are they still a big influence on the wider charismatic evangelical scene?

Pending an answer from Twangist, New Life Church Tunbridge Wells which is a newfrontiers church, is running a Bethel Sozo course. When people aren't releasing redemption through painting, chances are the most widespread emanation of Bethel in the UK is via these Sozo courses. Not to be confused with Sozo Ministries International [Ultra confused]

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
Prophetic balloon modelling anybody?

I think I will propose a course of prophetic wanking.

TBH, a lot of this is not that different. Self pleasuring artists.

Posted by opaWim (# 11137) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
Prophetic balloon modelling anybody?
I think I will propose a course of prophetic wanking.

TBH, a lot of this is not that different. Self pleasuring artists.

Isn't most art primarily just that?
And is that bad in itself?
You have to be motivated by something. And if others than the (would be) artist her/himself are enjoying it, being inspired by it, being pleasured by it, it's sort of useful, isn't it?

[ 23. June 2014, 08:25: Message edited by: opaWim ]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

A Sethel Bozo course?

[Big Grin]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I think the difference, Schroedinger's Cat is that most artists, musicians, poets, novelists, playwrights, sculptors, and origami practitioners don't consider their work to have the kind of cosmic significance that is being claimed in this instance.

It's the over-spiritualisation of things again.

I can't remember which thread it was on now but someone provided a helpful link to an account of one of the 19th/early 20th century (?) Anglo-Catholic slum priests who'd installed proper plumbing and sewage systems in the schools he worked with ...

He said something like, 'I'm interested in sewerage because of the Incarnation.'

If this Bethelite really wants to do something positive and of benefit to France then she'd do better getting involved with something that really does make a difference instead of producing sub-standard paintings and making extravagant claims for their spiritual significance.

I don't have any issue with religious art or iconography and so on - but I have plenty of issues with the kind of over-the-top claims made by people like her. They need to come down to earth and stop taking themselves so seriously.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I am reminded of Kurt Vonnegut's picture of an asshole, which is actually art, even though Vonnegut probably was expressing emotion when he drew it.

This turned out to be a lot safer for work than I imagined. I don't know whether to be relieved or disappointed.

orfeo
Hellhost (aka Clicker of Links, by Royal Appointment)

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I am reminded of Kurt Vonnegut's picture of an asshole, which is actually art, even though Vonnegut probably was expressing emotion when he drew it.
This turned out to be a lot safer for work than I imagined. I don't know whether to be relieved or disappointed.

orfeo
Hellhost (aka Clicker of Links, by Royal Appointment)

It was better than the damn poppies, by a couple of orders of magnitude...

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

I just hope she doesn't turn to poetry: "the seeds of renaissance begin again." [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

(Also, am I the only one who thinks that the Creative Supernatural School of Ministry sounds like a department of Unseen University?)

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

That was a typo. She is merely in charge of all things Creative at Hogwarts. I mean the Supernatural School of Ministry (they have at least one in the UK too, you know).

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

There can be only ONE!

Pyx_e (adding mad shit to a mad thread)

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Kyzyl:
The Rothko Chapel in Houston is a deeply spiritual place but there is nothing exclusively Christian about it.
Not a big Rothko fan, but this I like.

Ooer. First impressions reminded me irresistibly of this ultra-creepy album cover from Led Zep.

[ 23. June 2014, 11:01: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Adeodatus:

quote:
Also, am I the only one who thinks that the Creative Supernatural School of Ministry sounds like a department of Unseen University?

Sounds like a department of the University of Bums on Seats to me.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

My son just had a birthday so we had all his new music, movies, and art spread out on the table and noticed how the literature for all of it was interchangeable and a bit more impressive if mixed-up; the music was full of bright colors and the art had intense rhythms, etc.

Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :

Eutychus you unconscionable bastard. I just followed that link to Theresa Dedmon's bio; I don't suppose there's any chance that God will release a Spirit of How To Write In English upon her exalted personage any time soon?

For crimes against language alone she should be cast into the outer darkness, before we even get to the "over-realised" spirituality bollocks.

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

I am currently browsing the net prophetically, to release the Spirit of How To Write In English upon our dear sister in Christ.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think the difference, Schroedinger's Cat is that most artists, musicians, poets, novelists, playwrights, sculptors, and origami practitioners don't consider their work to have the kind of cosmic significance that is being claimed in this instance.

Absolutely - most artists produce their art, and either consider it to be total crap or need to have others to stroke their ego and convince them that it is good and worth something.

There are comparatively few who consider their own art to be significant or important. At least until others have told them it is.

This level of masturbatory indulgence sucks. The fact that it is clothed in spiritual terms makes no difference. If, say, Tracey Emin were to claim that her Unmade Bed was so good it would impact the whole of the UK, most people would have laughed at her. And she is talented, her art does have an impact.

This piece is moderately pleasant. The artist is OK, but not special. And yet she claims a significance to her work that would attract ridicule and claims of an ego beyond even most artists. And yet in Christian circles, she is tolerated and approved of.

The problem is that this is far more widespread. If you put spiritual words around monkey spanking, it becomes something to be lauded, not ridiculed.

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm planning an interpretative dance for Slovenia, ...
Just don't do as a priest of another diocese did at their 150th anniversary and do the dance clad in lycra. He was rather overweight and the sight was...odd. And though you, as I recall, are not overweight, and a reasonably fine figure of a man (so my wife says)...no lycra.

But dance on...Slovenia can use all the help it can get.

John

The church I go to is celebrating its 150th anniversary in a couple of weeks. The thought of Fr Matthew clad in lycra doing an interpretative dance is...interesting [Ultra confused]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I used to know the very sensible editor of a particular magazine that was popular for a time in certain charismatic circles. He used to regularly receive doggerel poems from people who claimed to received them 'from the Lord.'

He quipped that as he tossed them into the wastepaper basket he would say, 'The Lord gaveth ... and the Lord taketh away ...'

[Big Grin]

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

My biggest problem with this is that I have an old friend who:
a) is deeply involved in these kinds of churches
b) has, in recent years, taken up painting as a hobby (some may say an infatuation)
c) is foolish enough to buy all this crap

Fortunately, there is now an ocean and a continent between us. But I have a nasty feeling that she will start 'prophetic painting' and expect us to appreciate her 'prophecies' when we next see her. [Frown]

Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :

I quite liked the one with the dancer twirling in glory. Although it did look like someone drowning in a whirlpool of doubt and detritus to me.

I fear I am not anointed.

Actually, I'm positive i'm not anointed ...

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Sorry to get all Purgatorial in spite of myself, but are you sure you aren't? There's a verse in 1 John 2 that says all believers are anointed and that God's anointing remains in us.

That's one of the things that annoys me about this lot. They are trying to corner the market on the anointing when in fact the Holy Spirit has been poured out on all flesh. Ezekiel for one had some decidedly Hellish things to say about people who tried to do that.

[ 23. June 2014, 17:14: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

Because this is Hell, and my last post above linked to a picture of an asshole, I thought I should link to a real artistic picture of a group of assholes. The picture of this sculpture is obviously not true to life though, because no one is getting redeemed and the drowning people will be us not them.

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

I can't get past this line in the "About" section of her website:

quote:
She activates churches in how to touch their community through creative expressions and love.

What does this even mean?! I can't figure out what "activate" means in this context.

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

no prophet—disappointing NSFW-link checking Hellhosts since 2010.

Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :

{Purg:ON}
I agree, I was merely distancing myself from the use of anointing in the immediate context.
{Purg:OFF}

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
I can't get past this line in the "About" section of her website:

quote:
She activates churches in how to touch their community through creative expressions and love.
What does this even mean?! I can't figure out what "activate" means in this context.

Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
What scares me is that I can just see these people ten years down the line, when real life has hit them hard, right in the face, and I'm afraid their faith is going to completely vanish. It looks like a delusion to me. They need a strong dose of reality if they're going to develop a Christian faith that will last long term. (wish I could take them round the metro area for a week or two, shadowing a pastor)

A friend's Mom attends Bethel. Just before the real estate crash she invested her life's savings into local residential properties because someone at the 'church' had a 'prophetic' revelation that Bethel would attract so many people that real estate values in Redding CA would skyrocket.

She lost everything in the crash. Still a Bethel believer.

There is no 'real life' for those who have bought into this shit, only 'testings of their faith' and 'rewards for their faith.' Nothing is concrete, nothing is absolute, and nothing is real outside of the Bethel-zone reality.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

It's the fruit cake zone once again.

When will the church start distancing itself from this rubbish? She's so far up herself that it's surprising she's not 99% invisible -- there's a distinct lack of humility in claiming that you can impart anything, yet it's plastered all over the web site.

Perhaps the minor in Bible Studies needs to become a major - or rather a real life encounter with God is necessary to do the trick.

I pray for people taken in by this bilge but hey it's just Bethel's latest marketing ploy. The fact that they move from thing to thing suggests that they are trying to keep one step in from of exposure. They just make the work harder for the rest of us.

Where are the gemstones now Bill?

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
A friend's Mom attends Bethel. Just before the real estate crash she invested her life's savings into local residential properties because someone at the 'church' had a 'prophetic' revelation that Bethel would attract so many people that real estate values in Redding CA would skyrocket.

I seem to remember reading a secular news article that said the town council were quite pleased at all the business Bethel was attracting to Redding, which as I understand it is not the wealthiest of locations...

quote:
There is no 'real life' for those who have bought into this shit, only 'testings of their faith' and 'rewards for their faith.' Nothing is concrete, nothing is absolute, and nothing is real outside of the Bethel-zone reality.

That's well-put and corresponds to the mindset of our friends here who are now into it. The whole thing is a complete distraction.

(nice to see you around by the way!)

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

OK, I can't take it anymore-- can someone tell me what "releasing redemption" even means?

Like a flock of birds or something? Like a flask of ebola? what?

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
OK, I can't take it anymore-- can someone tell me what "releasing redemption" even means?

Like a flock of birds or something? Like a flask of ebola? what?

God was refusing to do anything for France until she finished this painting. Because God hates her and France, and so was letting then suffer.

Then she finished it and God to do something in France. However she actually made a very slight mistake so God is actually going to continue ignoring France.

Because her God is a vindictive little shit.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

RELEASE THE KRAKEN!

On a slightly more hostly note... folks, Hell is not an anti-Purgatory, it's more a Purgatory supplement or Purgatory with extra. You're perfectly free to say anything 'Purgatorial' here in Hell. The converse does not apply - you can't say Hellish things in Purgatory.

We don't say biting, nasty things peppered with swear words down here because we must. We do it because sometimes it feels bloody good and here is the one bit of the Ship where we may.

orfeo
Hellhost and occasional releaser of various things, including the hounds, grudges and farts

Posted by The Rhythm Methodist (# 17064) on :

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:
OK, I can't take it anymore-- can someone tell me what "releasing redemption" even means?

Releasing things, like prophecy, "words"(or in this case redemption) is a charismatic affectation which is designed to lend importance to what they say and , of course, to themselves. Taking this particular usage, "releasing redemption" means.....nothing.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

What would really mess with their minds would be to sign up with my e-mail hosting provider. On the webmail's click-and drag facility for sending files from your desktop, the following message appears

quote:
Release to attach

(More seriously, saying you are "releasing" something of course assumes you have the authority to do the releasing, too... more power trips)

[ 24. June 2014, 15:52: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:
OK, I can't take it anymore-- can someone tell me what "releasing redemption" even means?

Releasing things, like prophecy, "words"(or in this case redemption) is a charismatic affectation which is designed to lend importance to what they say and , of course, to themselves. Taking this particular usage, "releasing redemption" means.....nothing.

That's a shame. I'd envisaged it as more like a sort of supernatural scratch'n'sniff technology.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

So, is it like the way a company releases a new version of software?

"Here'e the latest, greatest thing.... Ooops. Sorry, we've just cocked up. We'll install a fix once we've worked out where we went wrong."

Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :

I seriously hope my redemption isn't in beta ...

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

What do you think Alpha courses are for?

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
I can't get past this line in the "About" section of her website:

quote:
She activates churches in how to touch their community through creative expressions and love.
What does this even mean?! I can't figure out what "activate" means in this context.

Honestly, I don't know what it means either. My Enigma machine isn't calibrated for Bethelspeak. But taking a rough guess, I'd suggest it means something like "she'll get you to do artsy stuff you can show off to your local community who will like it". Though if so, the evidence is pretty slender I must say. [/QB][/QUOTE]

I think it's supposed to mean more than that, that there is some kind of special spiritual radioactivity that is somehow imparted through the artworks themselves.

These people would probably be the first to criticise the Orthodox for their iconography but they are essentially making similar claims - albeit in a pretty cack-handed way.

I think there are extremes and superstition in the way icons are used/deployed in popular Orthodoxy - as indeed in popular Roman Catholicism - but the theology of iconography is rather more developed and nuanced.

Can anything good come out of Bethel?
[Roll Eyes]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Isn't this a bit like the sort of thing the pagans get up to? Magic?

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

There is, of course, a subtext to:

'She activates churches in how to touch their community through creative expressions and love.'

And translated from Bethel-ese what it is really saying is:

'Actually, she's not that good an artist. If she was she'd be teaching adult evening classes or art courses at a proper college or something so instead what she's doing is trying to make the most out of her mediocre talent by touting it around the kind of churches who are gullible enough to buy-into her super-spiritualised view of the world and thereby make some money out of them in a way that she couldn't elsewhere ...'

And more fool them for swallowing it.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Isn't this a bit like the sort of thing the pagans get up to? Magic?

It's exactly like magic in that it assumes that correct manipulation of inanimate objects, or using the correct language, will systematically produce a specific result, independently of any divine agency, within the power of the operator.

Ironically, the best denunciation of this I've read is in Surprised by the Voice of God by Jack Deere, at that time associated with the Kansas City Prophets. Go figure.

Posted by Twangist (# 16208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
Prophetic balloon modelling anybody?
You tell me. Is Bethel and prophetic balloon-modelling strictly spiritually incorrect in Newfrontiers these days? Inquiring minds want to know...

Sorry missed this..
Some bits of the evil empire (well empires/spheres/whatever these days) formerly known as NFI seem to be more into that sort of things than others. TO be fair we have a good track record of slagging off some of the sillier emphasises of charismania teratorial spirits, representational repentance etc. However "Treasure hunting" has been taken up by some folk.
I've not picked up on Bethel stuff plugged at anything I've attended and have allways been pretty negative about it on here.
TBH I've heard more about Bethel from New Winey/Vineyardy types who seem to like it.
Need to find some dubious OT precendent to sell some crappy homemade CDs of bad blues guitar [Biased]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I haven't had much close interaction with NFI in recent years but I have friends who are still involved and what Twangist has written chimes well with me.

I think that New Wine and Vineyard types are more likely to be seduced by Betheldom - partly because they lack the kind of Calvinistic rigour that is a feature of some NFI settings. I'm not saying that I'm entirely comfortable with all aspects of the Calvinistic emphasis - some NFI people combine both Calvinist and charismatic extremes - but generally speaking, as far as charismaticdom goes, a dose of Calvinism can and does provide some much needed ballast.

Even in New Wine and Vineyard circles, I suspect, there is a certain selectivity when it comes to what is taken on board from Bethel. The 'Treasure Hunting' thing seems to have struck a chord more widely than other aspects - perhaps because it gives the semblance of achieving measurable and quantifiable results.

After all, statistically speaking, if you go into the town centre on any Saturday afternoon the chances of you meeting a lady called Sharon in a Primark top whose son is struggling with his GCSEs is going to be quite high ...

My guess would be that most other groups who are exposed to Bethelism will take what they want and leave the rest. 'Treasure Hunting' in its turn will be replaced by some other fad in due course.

As for the art and creativity emphasis - in some ways this isn't a bad thing given that some elements within evangelicalism have always had a bit of a problem with the arts. If people get switched on to painting and drawing and expressing themselves creatively in some way or other then that's not a bad thing in and of itself.

The dross will fall away without us having to give it a nudge or take the mickey out of it.

'The dross you will always have with you ...'

What I think is sad about the whole Bethel thing is the potential for it to misdirect energy that has the potential to be used so positively. People get hurt by this stuff.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
misdirect energy

Posted by Twangist (# 16208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
misdirect energy

activating surely ....

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Come to think of it, this 'activating' business is probably the result of someone stumbling across a chemistry textbook and learning about catalysis. She's a catalyst, yo.

Which probably means that she points at a lot of things that were going to happen anyway and claims a bit of credit for them.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Maybe it's like activated charcoal. We use it in our aquarium for fish shit.

[ 25. June 2014, 01:38: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

It strikes me that anyone who claims to be a prophet of God by that very act proves herself not to be.

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What do you think Alpha courses are for?

Quotes file.

(with sufficient context to set up the joke)

quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
Prophetic balloon modelling anybody?
I think I will propose a course of prophetic wanking.

TBH, a lot of this is not that different. Self pleasuring artists.
Isn't most art primarily just that?

No, but most modern art is.

quote:
And is that bad in itself?

Yes.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Self pleasuring artists.
Isn't most art primarily just that?

No, I don't think so. There are artists for whom this is a primary motivation. But there are artists who are driven to create. It isn't necessary about pleasure.

quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:

And is that bad in itself?

In and of itself? Depends. If one's philosophy/religion is about not being absorbed in oneself, then this could be considered harmful.

quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:

You have to be motivated by something.

Yes. And artists are as varied in their motivations as normal people.

Posted by luvanddaisies (# 5761) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think I will propose a course of prophetic wanking.

Thanks. Thanks a lot. Now trying to avoid thinking about the parable of the sower and the seed falling on various types of ground...
This mental image is not helped or in any way enhanced by your avatar being Snoopy. Gaah. It's been 'activated' and 'released' by the power of your talent with words. Bastard.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:
Releasing things, like prophecy, "words"(or in this case redemption) is a charismatic affectation which is designed to lend importance to what they say and , of course, to themselves. Taking this particular usage, "releasing redemption" means.....nothing.

Linguistically speaking, that sure is how it comes across.

Posted by The Rhythm Methodist (# 17064) on :

Another practice of these deluded and grandiose people - which also registers a 9.8 on my bullshitometer - is "releasing the anointing". Frankly, I wouldn't want any anointing they were in a position to "release"!

Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Poppies? They would look fine in my kitchen, but jeez, "God's redemption of France"?

Poppies, hunh? Well, you know what they make from poppies! Methinks she's getting high from paint fumes and maybe some other less savory things! [Big Grin]

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

Quite apart from anything else, poppies shows an amazing lack of imagination - something which i had always assumed was a prerequisite for any kind of artist.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

This thread needs cheering up. Bad painting of Barack Obama.

George w. Bush tried to paint Stephen Harper (Cdn PM).

And this one a photographer dressed up in all sorts of things is the happiest one.

[ 26. June 2014, 02:28: Message edited by: no prophet ]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Poppies? They would look fine in my kitchen, but jeez, "God's redemption of France"?
Poppies, hunh? Well, you know what they make from poppies! Methinks she's getting high from paint fumes and maybe some other less savory things!

Wrong sort of poppies. These are the sort that are used in remembrance of the dead of WWI, so maybe there was a trace of thought about that - at least that's what I assumed.

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