Ship of Fools: Cashless Busses

Thread: Cashless Busses Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Copied from TICTH:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink
Idiot companies sidelining the poor, intellectually impaired and homeless even further because they can't see further than the ends of their own noses.

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...
Oyster cards are very widely available - from the machines in tube stations and newsagents even if the counters don't exist. Cash fares on the buses and Tube are weighted to make it cheaper to have cards (Bus: £2.40 cash, £1.45 on Oyster, Tube Zone 1 fare £4.70 cash, £2.20 on Oyster). Day travel cards are available from all stations too - from the machines that are pretty much everywhere, and accept cash, and those are at Oyster rates.

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Idiot companies sidelining the poor, intellectually impaired and homeless even further because they can't see further than the ends of their own noses.
They're not alone. New York City subways and the Los Angeles metro are cash-free (one can still use cash on the buses, however). You have to purchase a card from a vending machine to use in the turnstiles. LA's work pretty well, but NY's are notorious for having to be "swiped" multiple times before the turnstile recognizes them.

And in both cities, senior citizen reduced fare cards must be specially applied for. Fine for residents, but what about tourists?

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink
They require organisational skills, and being able to manage a level of abstract concept. Crosspost

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht

quote:

Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

And in both cities, senior citizen reduced fare cards must be specially applied for. Fine for residents, but what about tourists?
Perhaps the cities feel (not necessarily unreasonably) that people who can afford to be tourists are not those in most need of a senior citizen discount? Plus, of course, tourists don't vote.

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
They require organisational skills, and being able to manage a level of abstract concept. Crosspost
More organisational skills are required to ensure you always have change for the bus. People with disabilities can get a concessionary pass, so they don't need to pay. This has been the case for quite a while, and it makes organising travel a lot easier.

quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
They require organisational skills, and being able to manage a level of abstract concept. Crosspost
More organisational skills are required to ensure you always have change for the bus. People with disabilities can get a concessionary pass, so they don't need to pay. This has been the case for quite a while, and it makes organising travel a lot easier.
It depends on the person, and I know many of my clients who would not do well with this system.

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...
Buses are free on the concessionary passes, disabled, elderly, children under 15 - just need showing on entry. They just have to carry a card. And if someone begged for a fare I'd buy them an Oyster with enough cash on it more willingly than I'd give them cash for drugs or alcohol.

quote:
Fineline

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It depends on the person, and I know many of my clients who would not do well with this system.
What, they'd prefer to pay for their bus fare than have a free pass that they just swipe? I work with teenagers with severe learning disabilities, many of whom don't understand money, but they can generally grasp that their card with their photo on is to be shown on the bus.

I also have a free bus pass, because of being on the autism spectrum, and I can't conceive how paying with money is easier. Your bus pass is always in your purse, same as your money is, but unlike your money, you don't have to count it out, or make sure you have enough beforehand. I don't have an intellectual disability, but I do have difficulty with organisation, and also I don't have much money, and the bus pass makes things a lot easier for me.

quote:
Originally posted by Huia
I hope no one even thinks about bringing
a similar system in here. What happens if someone loses their card?

I mislaid my concession card last week (it's normally chained to my backpack, so I haven't done that in ages), but at least it was only a kilometre away, so I could walk.

Huia

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel

quote:

Originally posted by Fineline:
What, they'd prefer to pay for their bus fare than have a free pass that they just swipe? I work with teenagers with severe learning disabilities, many of whom don't understand money, but they can generally grasp that their card with their photo on is to be shown on the bus.
Money in the hand is a tangible thing that people can understand and relate to. It's a finite thing: you spend it, it's gone. A swipe card has a less visible effect, if you know what I mean, and if it's something that you have to keep topping up with credit, this is where difficulties can start.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Sorry slightly mixed up mine and Fineline's quotes in the middle, perhaps a host - whilst disembowelling me with a rusty farm implement - would condescend to correct my screw up.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

My experience working with students with learning difficulties is similar to Fineline's - a card they swipe is much easier to understand than money. The lad with severe learning difficulties has free bus travel but not tube, but as he still can't identify coins to pay for a hot chocolate in McDonald's after 9 months of trying, he couldn't cope with paying for the buses. But he can swipe in with his Oyster.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

It is people within a particular ability range, and with a specific pattern of difficulties, who will be fucked over by this.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Are these people who are likely to be otherwise able to cope with being out, on their own, making their way around on public transport? I don't know but if they are not, then a payment method they have problems with doesn't make much difference, does it?

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

There three main groups I'd be concerned for.

People who buy pre-pay then lose it, are induced to give it to someone else etc. they then don't have the money to rebuy for the rest of the week.

People who struggle with abstraction, and therefore have there money divided up into envelopes etc to help them understand budgetting etc. Don't cope well when you put anything on cards because it is difficult to follow, and they don't understand why they have less money than they were expecting and become upset and agitated. Often with that goes poor memory, so is more difficult to explain reduction in monies they don't see. This can result significant challenging behaviour.

People who are relatively able and don't have 1-to-1 support when out and about, but are very disorganised. This maybe due to LD, mental health problems, alcohol abuse, drug dependent etc. Buying tickets in advance requires pre-planning, both to get the tickets and to known roughly where you are going.

[ 06. July 2014, 22:02: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Is there any experience from elsewhere that could be used? Cashless public transport has been on the go elsewhere for many years.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

The people who are induced to give their cards up are equally induced to give their money to others.

This isn't just transport, it's everything that's going cashless.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Cards are profoundly annoying for occasional or one-time users. Do these cards cost anything?

The cards in Melbourne do. I think it cost about $7 for the card itself, on top of the actual fare amounts you can load into it.

I go to Melbourne maybe a couple of times a year. I have to remember to take the card with me each time if I don't want to cough up another $7. Getting an extra $7 out of every visitor/tourist to Melbourne is a nice windfall, I'd say.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

But you have to be able to get to a shop to buy your travel card, and that's not always easy for some. The nearest shops for us are about 1.5 km away, and there would be many, many people in the Sydney metropolitan region who have much further than that. The train station is much closer, so we can get train tickets there from a machine, even if there's no attendant. But an older lady was complaining at the supermarket the other day that she had no travel card, had to get to the shop to buy one, her car was not working, she could not afford a taxi and so she had had to go around her neighbours to get a lift to the shopping centre. She would not be alone - there are several retirement villages around here that are 5 km or more from shops.

[ 06. July 2014, 23:15: Message edited by: Gee D ]

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The people who are induced to give their cards up are equally induced to give their money to others.

This isn't just transport, it's everything that's going cashless.

There's a difference between conned out of a day's travel money, and a week or more prepaid though.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
But you have to be able to get to a shop to buy your travel card, and that's not always easy for some.

Yes. This is definitely another bugbear if you're not from somewhere.

I don't really have a problem with the kind of tickets you can get at a train station that last for 3 days or 5 days or 7 (they always seem to be an odd number).

But that's generally trains where you can pick those kinds of things up. Having to go somewhere other than the place you get the transport is much more of a challenge. I remember having some doubt and uncertainty trying to figure out where to get a pass for the San Francisco bus system. First I had to hunt down information about where I could buy one. Then, while I did find a supermarket nearby, it didn't feel like I could ask them detailed questions about which ticket was best for my needs, because they were just a supermarket, not a dedicated ticket seller. I did get something, but it was pretty much based on asking for the simplest thing and they had it.

I tell you what, travelling from city to city for 3 months really opens your eyes as to how different these systems can be, and how they're not all alike. One of the many reasons I liked Boston was that the public transport was a breeze to understand. Not only was everything incredibly well signposted, but identifying the ticket types and grabbing the one I wanted took about 30 seconds.

Whereas Washington DC ticketing was mystifying, and I was very grateful the friends I was staying with lent me a pass. Admittedly in that case it may have had something to do with the system being in the middle of a changeover.

[ 06. July 2014, 23:27: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

I'll double check this in the morning to see if it is universal, but in my experience normal adult Oyster cards can be bought from many, if not all, the ticket machines in stations.

The cards cost £5, but you can return them and get a refund when you leave. At ticket offices in stations.

And the row about ticket offices closing - what that means at my local station is that there is someone standing between the ticket office and platform to solve problems, rather than locked in behind a desk only dealing with queries that come to the window.

One time users can buy a day travel card that costs the same as using an Oyster - off peak capped price for travel in London - it's £8.30 or thereabouts.

[ 06. July 2014, 23:42: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Cards are profoundly annoying for occasional or one-time users. Do these cards cost anything?

The cards in Melbourne do. I think it cost about $7 for the card itself, on top of the actual fare amounts you can load into it.

You have to pay a deposit of £5 now for an Oyster card but you can get that back if you hand back the card. I have been assured by a rather disorganised friend that the system does work; every now and then she hands in all the cards she has bought when she left the usual one at home and gets the money back.

It is annoying that it is not possible to buy or top up Oyster cards at bus stops (or even bus stations) but there is generally a little newsagent or general store nearby where one can. As this only affects London, the concept of being 5km from the nearest shop does not apply.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

* dons asbestos under garments *

The poor can just suck it up. And I mean poor in a 21st century, 1st world sense of the word.

The poor boarding and then fucking around figuring out how to pay their fare out of a handful of paper money and coins—while the rest of the poor stand outside waiting to board, so that they can fumble with their own sad fistfuls of cash—add about 10 to 15 minutes to a 22-minute bus trip between home and church. That is 20 to 30 minutes a day not spent at that second job, slaving to make the rent.

I'm rich—in a global, 21st century sort of way—so I drive a single-occupancy, petrol-powered, internal combustion engine contraption instead of being a good little green doobie saving the planet, riding public transportation, as I would rather.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
* dons asbestos under garments *

The poor can just suck it up. And I mean poor in a 21st century, 1st world sense of the word.

You know, fuck you, you self righteous little bitch. Do you actually know any poor people? That the there are poor who do not suffer the ravages of the worst of the 3rd world does not mean they do not suffer.
"Oh, you lost a limb do to infection? At least you do not have leprosy, so quit your whinging!"
Ignorant, self inflated tosser.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

Do you have an argument? Or, are you contented with exerting yourself only so much as to call me names?

And yes, I live in a neighborhood that's been destroyed by arson, municipal neglect, financial redlining, urban 'renewal', crime, and poverty. Double murders on my front porch.

So much for the ad hominem. Got anything else?

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
]It is annoying that it is not possible to buy or top up Oyster cards at bus stops (or even bus stations) but there is generally a little newsagent or general store nearby where one can. As this only affects London, the concept of being 5km from the nearest shop does not apply.

Fog in Channel - Continent cut off.

This thread has developed along much broader lines than the use of cards in London - see for example the post from Honest Ron Bacardi.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Do you have an argument? Or, are you contented with exerting yourself only so much as to call me names?

I made an argument, though brief. If you cannot be bothered to read for comprehension, why should I expand? Perhaps you can find a tutor to help work out the meaning of the more difficult words.

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

And yes, I live in a neighborhood that's been destroyed by arson, municipal neglect, financial redlining, urban 'renewal', crime, and poverty. Double murders on my front porch.

From your post, it does not seem to have taught you anything.

Posted by Macrina (# 8807) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
* dons asbestos under garments *

The poor can just suck it up. And I mean poor in a 21st century, 1st world sense of the word.

The poor boarding and then fucking around figuring out how to pay their fare out of a handful of paper money and coins—while the rest of the poor stand outside waiting to board, so that they can fumble with their own sad fistfuls of cash—add about 10 to 15 minutes to a 22-minute bus trip between home and church. That is 20 to 30 minutes a day not spent at that second job, slaving to make the rent.

I'm rich—in a global, 21st century sort of way—so I drive a single-occupancy, petrol-powered, internal combustion engine contraption instead of being a good little green doobie saving the planet, riding public transportation, as I would rather.

Oh seriously? What?

Jeez, I am so tempted to launch into an absolute diatribe of rage right now at you. But I am not going to I am going to point my not inconsiderable ire at the attitude which you possess because really I have to remind myself that PEOPLE have worth even when their behaviour and speech is beyond consideration.

So what you're actually saying is that relative inequality means fuck all. That the unrest and social breakdown and frankly disgusting lack of humanity that our corporations and wealthy people display towards those of us who are not is actually a good thing because it will encourage us all to be More Like Them. More selfish, more dismissive, more greedy in a desperate effort to claw our bloody way up a greased pole. I call bullshit.

What you're saying is you'd rather be selfish and focus only on your tiny little sphere of existence than have to inconvenience yourself with the struggles and needs of other people even in the context of a fucking BUS TRIP? Fuck me I hope I am never lying bleeding on the side of the road when you're in traffic!

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Is there any experience from elsewhere that could be used? Cashless public transport has been on the go elsewhere for many years.

When I lived in Canada, there was a system of buying packs of ten bus tickets - small pieces of card that you put into a slot when you get on the bus. I actually found it a lot easier than using cash. Yes, you do have to buy the tickets beforehand - but that's easier than making sure you have ten lots of change beforehand.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
There three main groups I'd be concerned for.

People who buy pre-pay then lose it, are induced to give it to someone else etc. they then don't have the money to rebuy for the rest of the week.

People who struggle with abstraction, and therefore have there money divided up into envelopes etc to help them understand budgetting etc. Don't cope well when you put anything on cards because it is difficult to follow, and they don't understand why they have less money than they were expecting and become upset and agitated. Often with that goes poor memory, so is more difficult to explain reduction in monies they don't see. This can result significant challenging behaviour.

People can surely just as easily lose money, give away money, etc. Money is a very abstract concept itself.

And if someone has money put into envelopes, why can't they also have bus tickets put into envelopes? Although if they have a learning disability, then they are eligible for a free bus pass. And this doesn't involve topping up or losing money - it's free. Which is incredibly helpful for people on a low income. And is incredibly easy to use. No abstract concepts required - you don't even need language as you do with bus fares. You simply learn the action of showing it to the bus driver.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
The poor boarding and then fucking around figuring out how to pay their fare out of a handful of paper money and coins—while the rest of the poor stand outside waiting to board, so that they can fumble with their own sad fistfuls of cash—add about 10 to 15 minutes to a 22-minute bus trip between home and church. That is 20 to 30 minutes a day not spent at that second job, slaving to make the rent.

Actually, for those of us on the autism spectrum, who do get easily overwhelmed and fumble a lot on the spot, which can be very embarrassing and cause a lot of impatience in the bus driver and other passengers, this is one reason why having a free bus pass is a godsend.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Cashless public transport is a shit idea. What if on the spur of the moment you need to use public transport and all you've got is cash?

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

In London you can use the new bank cards to pay on entry and exit to buses and Tube stations, just by swiping. Or you buy an Oyster card and charge it with money regularly. This can be done automatically when the amount on the card drops below a certain amount or at machines or in newsagents or ...

It's no different to having to buy ticket packs in Paris (or Canada)

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Cashless public transport is a shit idea. What if on the spur of the moment you need to use public transport and all you've got is cash?

And what if on the spur of the moment you need to use the bus and you don't have cash? Or you only have a twenty pound note, so you need to find somewhere to change it (which generally involves making an unwanted purchase, which is fine if you're comfortably off, but not when you're on a very low income). This is a very common occurrence. Obtaining money (and specifically change) is no simpler than buying a set of bus tickets. In fact, in my experience, it tends to be a lot more complicated.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

I'm back briefly to say this:

In my little metropolis in the provinces, the transit cards are free for the asking at any train station.
That blows for folk who don't live near one, which is mostly racial minorities and students. In the first instance, this is a result of systemic racism.
5£ for a card is just poor incentive planning. As someone upthread said there's more than enough from abandoned fares to make up for it.
Even a charge as low as 1.5€ (Lisbon) is stupid.
No one has brought up the insidious way these cards have abetted the pernicious loss of privacy.
The outrageous increase in dwell time necessary for folk to fumble with cash doesn't affect just my trip time, it also drags down system performance, pushing up costs and discouraging discretionary users needed to make transit systems work well.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Cashless public transport is a shit idea. What if on the spur of the moment you need to use public transport and all you've got is cash?
And what if on the spur of the moment you need to use the bus and you don't have cash? Or you only have a twenty pound note, so you need to find somewhere to change it (which generally involves making an unwanted purchase, which is fine if you're comfortably off, but not when you're on a very low income). This is a very common occurrence. Obtaining money (and specifically change) is no simpler than buying a set of bus tickets. In fact, in my experience, it tends to be a lot more complicated.

Eh?

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

E-this, e-that. Why does everything have to be electronic? I’ve had to replace my season ticket no less than eight times this year, yes, eight, because the magnetic strip kept going, or it accidentally came into contact with a mobile phone, or something. I’m really hoping my ninth season ticket will last a bit longer.

You get no real sense of the value of money if you never see it. It’s far too easy to transfer units on a screen from one location to another with internet banking (which I don’t trust anyway) or shopping. It brings it home to you a lot more when you actually go to the bank/cashpoint and take out notes and coins. And anything e- is hackable.

[ 07. July 2014, 07:16: Message edited by: Ariel ]

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Cashless public transport is a shit idea. What if on the spur of the moment you need to use public transport and all you've got is cash?

Simple, go to a local newsagent or convenience store where you can top up your Oyster card.

Oh, hang on a sec. There's only one shop within walking distance that does Oyster and their machine is broken. The man behind the counter helpfully gives you a list of other Oyster outlets, but all of them are a fucking bus ride away.

Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Cashless public transport is a shit idea. What if on the spur of the moment you need to use public transport and all you've got is cash?
And what if on the spur of the moment you need to use the bus and you don't have cash? Or you only have a twenty pound note, so you need to find somewhere to change it (which generally involves making an unwanted purchase, which is fine if you're comfortably off, but not when you're on a very low income). This is a very common occurrence. Obtaining money (and specifically change) is no simpler than buying a set of bus tickets. In fact, in my experience, it tends to be a lot more complicated.
Eh?

I guess Fineline, like me, lives in an area where you have to pay the exact money for your bus fare and change is not given. I've certainly been in the situation of needing to get a bus, not having the correct change of £3.80 and only that £20.00 note to last me for the rest of the month. And annoying local shop keepers by using £20.00 for a 50p purchase to get the change.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Cashless system in London means they are allowing that one bus ride before topping up, so you can get to the next machine, in theory

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

Actually, change is given, but if you only have a twenty pound note, and it's the beginning of the route, the bus driver won't have change. And this is quite common - not just where I live. Out of curiosity, how many people arguing against a cashless system actually use the bus as their method of transportation, every day, and don't have a car or much money? Because what I'm saying really isn't so hard to grasp if you do. And if you don't, you can't speak on behalf of those of us who do - those of who actually do have to survive on a very low income, and also manage a disability.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Bus and tube user here - and I travel with students who are vulnerable and have learning difficulties

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

And buses where I live need cash, no convenient system for everything as there is in London. If you take the bus operated by one company into town, you have to choose whether to buy a (much cheaper) return and wait for the return bus from that operator, or buy two singles and not be tied to that route. So two lots of the right change.

Pensioners and disabled have concession cards wherever, so free travel.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

The fact that you and people you know cope is great. But you are not everybody. I have worked for years with people with intellectual and mental problems, and I have met and worked with those who don't.

People who can not manage basic bank accounts, living entirely independently, but too paranoid to trust in them People who could not be persuaded to have a bus pass because it had to have a photograph of their face on, and they found this unbearable because of their dysmorphic disorder. People with a learning disability significant enough to have support staff, who would not have a bus pass because it involved saying they had a disability. People who can not carry their own scratchcards over night, because holding something potentially worth so much means they can't sleep.

Then there are people with somekinds of pica, most commonly will eat paper and papery things, but not metal coins. Those with Prada-WillinSydrome maybe able enought to be supported out into the community, and still have this problem. Homeless with unmedicated bipolar disorder, choosing to live outside the benefits system and busk for the days money, or whenever he runs out. Impulsive reaction to not having a ticket on him - when high is to fare skip. I could go on for pages.

My problem is not with oyster cards, my problem is with reducing the flexibility of the system. In the same way that councils putting all their services online, stuffs up those who can not use computer based services. I have had to get someone into a clinic appoitnment to put in a request to the council to do something about the mould in his flat before now, because there was literally no other way of requesting maintainance than online.

He couldn't, for example, send a letter.

[ 07. July 2014, 08:36: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
And buses where I live need cash, no convenient system for everything as there is in London. If you take the bus operated by one company into town, you have to choose whether to buy a (much cheaper) return and wait for the return bus from that operator, or buy two singles and not be tied to that route. So two lots of the right change.

Pensioners and disabled have concession cards wherever, so free travel.

More or less the same here. The main town operator does not give change on the buses, just a credit ticket which can be used later or exchanged back for cash at the bus station. (Most journeys begin and end there, so not too much of a problem). Prepaid smart cards are also available on this operator.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

How is remembering to take your card any different from remembering to take cash?

I would be happy to have a cashless world, never mind busses! At the moment I have to remember cards and cash - in a cashless world, just the card would be needed.

What happened to using phones to pay?

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Cash is anonymous. Also, the more and more we go to using invisible money the more and more I become convinced that this money doesn't actually exist at all. It's just one big ruse.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

I do not think those with mental difficulties when they are able to get a free pass will be worse off but ...

There are also those whose life is chaotic. Chaotic lives occur at all levels in society, but the lower your income the more likely circumstances are to push you towards chaotic living. When you get to the financial state when you are making decisions on whether to pay for a B&B or get a hot meal, how are you going to manage to pre-pay for a travel card for journeys you may not make. Yet travelling by bus might be the only way to get in at a hostel. Go one level up, imagined the housed family, with debts maybe due to family illness, where any money they get is spoken for three times over and it is a constant matter of "How little can I pay Peter so I can pay something to Paul?". Income is not a problem, outgoings are. Or the family with an unstable alcoholic like my great grandfather, who if his wage was not immediately got off him when he got it, would drink the lot.

Jengie

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

The Guardian

quote:
Research shows that 99% of customers use Oyster, prepaid tickets, contactless payment cards or concessionary tickets. TfL says the transition should be trouble free because passengers who have run out of credit on their Oyster card are now allowed to make one more journey.

I am not sure why we should continue to operate a system that only 1% of customers use.

The vast majority of visitors to London arrive at an airport or train station - both places where Oyster cards are sold. I would suspect nearly all people who take the Tube from Heathrow or St Pancras purchase a Travelcard for the period they will spend in the city.

Many British people will already have contactless debit/credit cards in which case they don't need cash or an Oystercard at all. My bank has replaced all of my previous cards with contactless ones over the past two years.

There are also buses in London that already did not accept cash because they travel peak rush hour routes and cash payments are a time waster - I take one every morning to work.

Much ado about nothing.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

It doesn't matter what system you have, if it's the ONLY system it's going to cause people trouble.

Way back in 2000, when visiting my best friend in the UK, I had to pay for petrol a number of times because he already basically lived in a cashless world and was flummoxed by petrol stations further out in the countryside that wouldn't let him just swipe his credit card in the pump.

The most obvious issue with card systems is that they lock your money into that system. Once you've got money on your bus/train card, you can't use that money for anything else even if you aren't going to catch a bus/train for the next 6 months (usually the case for me in my home city - I really only catch the bus when my car is being serviced).

Cash is portable. Or it's supposed to be - it's supposed to be usable for any system of exchange for goods and services. Some part of me is actually now wondering about the legality of refusing to accept cash... we got into all this business about the definition of "legal tender" in the thread on Scottish independence, I seem to remember it's actually a very narrow circumstance where the definition is actually relevant.

We could of course bypass all of this by just radiochipping people and scanning them as they enter the bus. What a pity this raises enormous privacy concerns and sounds a bit too much like the Mark of the Beast in Revelation...

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Well said, orfeo.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It doesn't matter what system you have, if it's the ONLY system it's going to cause people trouble.

The 1% of people who currently use cash on buses?

Surely the numbers mean something in this situation.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Surely the numbers mean something in this situation.

That depends entirely on whether one is running a business or a service.

If it's a business, then it makes sense to get rid of those annoying, expensive customers (although I don't quite grasp why getting rid of cash would actually save money).

If it's a service, then it doesn't make sense to deny some people the ability to make use of the service.

Everything these days is very much headed towards the 'business' approach. There are cases where this makes sense, but also cases where it doesn't. To my mind, public transport is borderline. A lot of it's been privatised these days, but there is also an argument that public transport is a fairly vital part of enabling some people to be active participants in society. There are also many large cities in the world where it's fairly important from an overall perspective to encourage as many people as possible to use public transport in preference to private.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Cashless system in London means they are allowing that one bus ride before topping up, so you can get to the next machine, in theory

All well and good, but if you've already used that free ride to get home from the pub the night before because you didn't realise your card was so low, you're buggered.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Following what orfeo said, businesses are run entirely to maximize profit, not to benefit the customer. Any notion of service is a joke today - I said this recently to an assistant in Boots, and he looked very vexed. What irritates me is when they try to con us that it's for our benefit. Yeah, and slices of bacon can and will fly.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

In my city we just transferred to a system such that everybody (single use all the way up to monthly pass) uses a plastic card you have to buy except people who pay extra for the privilege to use cash. I'm glad they still can use cash because besides the tourists--who I don't really mind paying 25 or 50 cents extra per ride if they can't be bothered to buy a card--cash users here are often the very poor. They are the people who can't afford that extra five dollars to buy a card even if it will get refunded to them later.

On the other hand, until very recently when my delightful (read fucking greedy) city sold the rights to V to make these cards, people could buy the permanent auto-refillable card,s or use temporary self-refillable free cards, or use cash for a 25/50 cent fee. The conclusion is that now the poor are screwed over for the politicians and the rest of us have to make multiple calls to V to get them to sort out our transportation. (Bullfrog and I have made at least 5 such calls in the past six months.)

ETA: If it's a city service that I'm subsidizing with my taxes, it's damn well supposed to be run like a service at least for residents of the city!

[ 07. July 2014, 13:17: Message edited by: Gwai ]

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Cashless system in London means they are allowing that one bus ride before topping up, so you can get to the next machine, in theory
All well and good, but if you've already used that free ride to get home from the pub the night before because you didn't realise your card was so low, you're buggered.

Then you could top-up online at home.
Unless you are reluctant to register your card for privacy concerns. Heck, you can even arrange it so that your card is automatically topped up whenever it dips below £10. I accept that that could cause problems for those watching every penny but it makes life easier for those who are more solvent but disorganised.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It doesn't matter what system you have, if it's the ONLY system it's going to cause people trouble.
The 1% of people who currently use cash on buses?

Surely the numbers mean something in this situation.

One percent of six million is a lot of people.

FWIW, incidence of - for example - schizophrenia is approximately 1%, learning disability (as opposed to learning difficulties) would affect approximately 2.5% of the population. I am asserting that it is a subset of these kinds of groups who will be affected - but in a densely populated area that is going to be a high absolute number, in the thousands.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
One percent of six million is a lot of people.[/URL]

60,000 people out of a population of 8.3m and 15m annual tourists - is not a lot. And that doesn't even include commuters from Essex/Kent/Hertfordshire/etc who take a bus after their train into town.

I hope that vulnerable people are cared for in regards to travel but it is a bit strange for people to be so upset about the loss of something that hardly anyone uses.

I grew up near New York City, where a bus ride ($2.50) must be paid for by:
- exact change in coins - no bills accepted. The coins are deposited into a machine that does not require driver time or effort. If you don't have change you are not riding the bus.

- prepaid Metro Card/paper ticket purchased at a subway station or machine (i.e. not on the bus)

Just as a comparison.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

60,000 is a lot of folk though - and they matter. Public transport is meant to be a public service, not just a profit making exercise.

(And that is just per day, not everyone travels daily.)

[ 07. July 2014, 13:51: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

Posted by St Deird (# 7631) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
How is remembering to take your card any different from remembering to take cash?

I would be happy to have a cashless world, never mind busses! At the moment I have to remember cards and cash - in a cashless world, just the card would be needed.

What happened to using phones to pay?

As someone with ADHD, I find cash much easier.

Why? Because to check if I have enough money on my card, I have to:
1) get to a station
2) not be running horribly late for a train
3) notice the card-checking machine
4) check how much money I have left
5) remember that number

Or...
1) go to the public transport website
2) somehow track down my password for using the system
3) log in and check how much money I have left
4) remember that number

...all of which will take me at least a day per step (owing to the aforementioned ADHD), and is increasingly unlikely to be done at all. So I won't realise that my card is out of money until I try using it and it fails.

On the other hand, if I want to check if I have enough CASH to take public transport, I have to:
1) open my wallet

For those of us with chronic disorganisation and executive function issues, cash systems can be very helpful. I use cash for as many things as possible - that way, I don't have to keep track of 20 ever-more-complicated electronic systems; I just have to have a stack of notes in my handbag.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
60,000 is a lot of folk though - and they matter. Public transport is meant to be a public service, not just a profit making exercise.

Why do you assume they are all disadvantaged by the change? The Oyster fare is cheaper.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Not all of them no, but I believe thousands will be - and it isn't just about price, it is about usability for a given individual and what that does to their independence.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

St Deird, I have ADHD and executive function difficulties too - which is why I asked the question!

I don't live in London or use Oyster cards but I use my debit card for everything and struggle to remember to have enough cash on me for daily needs (the milkman nearly always gets a cheque as I so often lack the right amount)

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
As someone with ADHD, I find cash much easier.

Why? Because to check if I have enough money on my card, I have to:
1) get to a station
2) not be running horribly late for a train
3) notice the card-checking machine
4) check how much money I have left
5) remember that number

Or...
1) go to the public transport website
2) somehow track down my password for using the system
3) log in and check how much money I have left
4) remember that number

A debit card with contactless only requires the user to remember if they have cash in their bank account. Which they'd have to do if they went to the ATM to get cash for the bus journey as well.

Am I the only one whose bank has replaced my debit cards with contactless ones?

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

What is it about people having different individual needs, with different optimal arrangements that is so hard to understand ?

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

As an ex London transport employee can I just add the main reason for all this is to stop fraud by employees.

I heard the most outrageous stories when I worked for them. One employee's bank rang up an asked why LT were paying him when he was dead. He had not touched his bank account for 15 years because of the cash he stole from ticket collecting.

The biggest dent on druggies and drunkards will on those in uniform.

Could not be like it myself.

P

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Oyster cards are plastic ~ like credit or bank cards.
You choose if you want it registered or not. Worth it for season tickets orto get statements for expenses.
You can set up your account to automatically top up when the balance drops below a certainm amount.
You can cash go cards and buy new.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is it about people having different individual needs, with different optimal arrangements that is so hard to understand ?

I don't agree with expense and delays to bus service for a very small minority of users. There are ways to accommodate those users that do not require keeping the entire infrastructure for cash payments in place as is.

I have missed a train home in the evening after a long day at work because a group of 10 American teenagers all wanted to pay for a bus in cash without exact change. I'm sure on that bus were also mothers whose children were waiting to be picked up, people trying to get to their own night shift of work, etc.

If someone can clearly explain to me how vulnerable people are going to made significantly worse of by this, I'm willing to hear it.

If someone has mental/physical illness, no bank account, no internet, and no ability to get to a shop that sells Oyster top up, then the bus system is not in their top 10 problems. They need help from the NHS, social services, etc. far before they need to pay cash on a bus.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

In an ideal world tax would be higher and utilities like public transport would be free at the point of use - even if the government insisted on competitive tender from private companies for the contract - thereby solving all of these issues.

Posted by Antisocial Alto (# 13810) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Any notion of service is a joke today - I said this recently to an assistant in Boots, and he looked very vexed.

Of course he did. You whined about a problem to a person who is one of the victims of that problem. Some asshole in upper management (who probably hardly sets foot in the store) cut the staffing to save money, and thanks to you and a thousand like you, that poor chump on the sales floor gets blamed for it ten times a day.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
In an ideal world tax would be higher and utilities like public transport would be free at the point of use - even if the government insisted on competitive tender from private companies for the contract - thereby solving all of these issues.

A broadd stateement, but I think that back in the forties Myles NagCopaleen/ Flann O'Brien (who was in his 'day job' a fairly senior civil servant) proposed that Dublin buses could be made free at the point of use by raising, I think, a halfpenny rate- something neglioble, anyway.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is it about people having different individual needs, with different optimal arrangements that is so hard to understand ?
If someone can clearly explain to me how vulnerable people are going to made significantly worse of by this, I'm willing to hear it.

If someone has mental/physical illness, no bank account, no internet, and no ability to get to a shop that sells Oyster top up, then the bus system is not in their top 10 problems. They need help from the NHS, social services, etc. far before they need to pay cash on a bus.

Well then, I suggest you manage to persuade The government that it arranges not to mandate these people turn up to job centres once a month for pointless consultations about non-existent job opportunities because they are in the ESA "support group", Or stop the ATOS assessments at the arse end of nowhere for people whose functioning is not going to improve significantly, or consider paying higher rate mobility, not just to people who physically can't walk, so they can pay for taxies.

More social workers would help, so that not every sodding case is closed from active work back to annual review and reviewers aren't running planned caseloads of 70 to 100. And to stop pushing all social care to go generic so no-one has the specialist knowledge to manage complex presentations would help.

But actually, all council budgets are being cut. So this is not going to happen.

[ 07. July 2014, 14:52: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

If I've understood this thread correctly (from a skim read) the complaint is on behalf of people who i) are unable to use a top-up card system and/or swipe card system but who can use money but ii) are able to navigate around a complex metropolitan area unaided (presumably reading maps, etc.).

How many people in London do we think fit this description?

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Well, for starters, what makes you think you need to be able to use a map to use a bus. Currently you don't even need to be able to read.

You walk to the bus shelter at the end of your street and wait for the <insert bus number you have always used> and you give the man in the uniform the money you have counted and ask him to go to the <insert street name> where your mum lives and back. Then when you see the Tesco's on the corner of your mum's street, you press the red button. When the bus stops you get out, saying thank you to the bus driver like mum says you do, and walk to mum's house.

When the tesco's changes, or the bus number changes cos the routes change, or mum moves - it takes someone weeks / months of work to get you over your anxiety about the changes and being used to the new routine.

(In a good service, someone will have given you a what-to-do-if-you-get-lost plan and possibly a card to give to a stranger when you ask for help.)

[ 07. July 2014, 15:34: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

But basically, whatever happens, from time to time you're going to be buggered, aren't you?

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

But you wouldn't argue that bus routes and numbers shouldn't change, would you?

[X-posted with Albertus]

[ 07. July 2014, 15:35: Message edited by: Anglican't ]

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

That is a change within the same system.

Going cashless is a much bigger overall change that will permenantly exclude a number of groups of people who are already fucked over by life.

I am objecting to cashless, not arguing for cash only.

[ 07. July 2014, 15:45: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
If I've understood this thread correctly (from a skim read) the complaint is on behalf of people who i) are unable to use a top-up card system and/or swipe card system but who can use money but ii) are able to navigate around a complex metropolitan area unaided (presumably reading maps, etc.).

How many people in London do we think fit this description?

Not quite. We seem to be discussing people who are entitled to a card allowing them free bus travel but who, for various reasons, do not want one and would rather pay by the most expensive means possible instead.

There may also be some who prioritise privacy over convenience (and so will not register their Oyster card for automatic top-ups) and are unhappy about the consequences of their choice.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
If I've understood this thread correctly (from a skim read) the complaint is on behalf of people who i) are unable to use a top-up card system and/or swipe card system but who can use money but ii) are able to navigate around a complex metropolitan area unaided (presumably reading maps, etc.).

How many people in London do we think fit this description?
Not quite. We seem to be discussing people who are entitled to a card allowing them free bus travel but who, for various reasons, do not want one and would rather pay by the most expensive means possible instead.

There may also be some who prioritise privacy over convenience (and so will not register their Oyster card for automatic top-ups) and are unhappy about the consequences of their choice.

Or *can't* use one effectively. Incidentally, re the example of dysmorphic disorder and paranoia, these are not conditions which can be meaningfully described as choices. Nor is a severe deficit in abstract thought, or bipolar disorder.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

As a traveller to countries where I may not speak the language at all, normally it is somewhere in the vicinity of 10-30 mins to figure out how the transit works. The usual is arriving by plane or train and then needing to get where you're going to stay from the crowded station. I have not seen any city which does this well. There may be machines, but limited instructions, and usually posted right by the machine or on the machine's screen.

Thus, the usual drill involves (a) asking someone, who may tell you, help you or swindle you, or may suck air through their teeth and simply ignore you (b) simply ignoring others and delaying the locals by taking 4 times the amount of time to buy the card and charge it up. This usually involves starting a transaction on the machine and then cancelling it 2 or 3 times until you get it right. This is what we generally do.

While doing the above, usually you have had to haul all your luggage with you and your travelling companions must keep an eye on it and you because of thievery or worry about same.

My advice for cities with card-based transit: post the instructions for buying and using the cards on signs away from the machines themselves, and ask the public to be kind to each other. My advice for the traveller is to try to find out before arriving how transit works, and to hope that it is not changed from the website info.

[ 07. July 2014, 15:57: Message edited by: no prophet ]

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:

There may also be some who prioritise privacy over convenience (and so will not register their Oyster card for automatic top-ups) and are unhappy about the consequences of their choice.
Or *can't* use one effectively. Incidentally, re the example of dysmorphic disorder and paranoia, these are not conditions which can be meaningfully described as choices. Nor is a severe deficit in abstract thought, or bipolar disorder.

DT in my second paragraph, I was thinking of those who have freely chosen to make such a decision, not those with disorders of any kind. I am well aware that paranoia etc. are not choices.

I confess I am slightly bemused by the concept of people who are eligible to get free transport but pay by cash instead; I accept that they exist but, as Anglican't said, I do not believe that there are very many of them.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Or *can't* use one effectively. Incidentally, re the example of dysmorphic disorder and paranoia, these are not conditions which can be meaningfully described as choices. Nor is a severe deficit in abstract thought, or bipolar disorder.

But how many people have one or more of these conditions to the extent that they are unable to cope with a cashless / card-only transport system but can cope with one that requires cash (including cash-only)? What numbers are we talking about?

At a guess, I'd say the numbers are very small. I don't want to exclude anyone from public transport but at the same time no-one has the right to a personally-tailored system.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:

My advice for cities with card-based transit: post the instructions for buying and using the cards on signs away from the machines themselves, and ask the public to be kind to each other. My advice for the traveller is to try to find out before arriving how transit works, and to hope that it is not changed from the website info.

But then you deprive the local hoteliers of the chance to offer 'airport pickup' at a 400% markup ...

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

[crosspost]

Small proportions, but large numbers - i.e. thousands of people.

And is it really that unreasonable to expect to be able to continue to pay for services with money ? After all, that is what the point of having a currency is, isn't it ? To have something universally exchangeable.

If Liverpool suddenly declared I could only buy stuff in its city limits if I bought and topped up tourist purchase card I'd be pretty pissed off.

[ 07. July 2014, 16:33: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I went by by bus 7 miles to a meeting this afternoon and 7 miles back.

Each journey took over one and a half hours.

I could almost have walked it more quickly.

The reason why it takes so long is because of people paying by cash.

Some of them don't even have their purses/wallets ready. Many root through handbags to find them

We spend more time at bus stops than we do travelling.

I visited most capital cities in Europe and have never had any problem buying some sort of bus card in a shop. No cash needed.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I always pay cash in supermarkets, and it amuses me sometimes to see someone with a credit/debit card taking ages to do the payment, whereas I'm through in about 5 seconds.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

The coins in one grocery store chain here come out in a little unit at the end of the counter. It says on it that the cashier has no access to it. They hand the bills to you, the coins come out elsewhere, and the elderly particularly often leave them because they weren't handed to them.

Debit and card machines are the dominant way here these days for everything. Cash is rarer and rarer. No one writes cheques either.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:

I confess I am slightly bemused by the concept of people who are eligible to get free transport but pay by cash instead; I accept that they exist but, as Anglican't said, I do not believe that there are very many of them.

Are all the people in DT's group entitled to free travel on buses? That wasn't my impression.

A card which entitles you to free travel is far, far easier to manage than a card which holds value and must be regularly topped up. Most, but not all, of DT's objections refer to the latter case but not the former.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

St Deird, do you take the bus regularly, and if so, can I ask how you deal with ensuring you have sufficient change in your purse each day? I can see how checking you've got sufficient funds on your card is fiddly, but I assume that is not a daily occurrence - once you've topped up with a couple of weeks of bus fare, you'd know you've got enough for a while, and could maybe put a reminder on your phone calendar to top up in a couple of weeks and plan to do it when you're going into town for other things (at least I find that a helpful strategy for executive dysfunction). But I have not yet found a simple way to ensure I always have change in my purse each day. I can only use my free bus pass after 9:30am, so I need to pay cash in the morning when I go to work. This means that every evening I have to remember to check I have £1.45 in my purse, and if I don't have it, I have to walk to a shop that has a cash machine, and after I've got cash, I need to change it, which means walking a mile to the supermarket, so I can buy something I actually need, and then remembering that what I buy needs to cost £8.50 or less if I am using a ten pound note. This can be incredibly tiring, especially after a busy day at work, and also having to remember to prepare a meal and eat it. Sometimes when I don't have change, I walk the four miles to work instead. So I'm wondering, as you also have executive dysfunction, how you find the cash system easy - what are your strategies?

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
As an ex London transport employee can I just add the main reason for all this is to stop fraud by employees.

Possibly. It doesn't stop the fact that the balkanization of proxy cash is a complete pain in the behind for the user, though.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

I wonder if one could stage a protest as follows?

Board bus without paying. Get fined. Offer cash as legal tender to cover cost of fine. Argue in court that as you offered legal tender to pay the fine and it was refused; therefore, you owe TfL nothing.

I agree with orfeo and Jengie Jon. The people that this adversely affects are people who are living on the margin of financial viability and therefore can't afford to make upfront payments for services they may not immediately use. (It would help if we had a benefits system that wasn't trying to get everybody it could off its books on any possible technicality.)

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
[crosspost]

Small proportions, but large numbers - i.e. thousands of people.

In London alone?

quote:
And is it really that unreasonable to expect to be able to continue to pay for services with money ? After all, that is what the point of having a currency is, isn't it ?

You can in London - with a contactless payment card.

quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Board bus without paying. Get fined. Offer cash as legal tender to cover cost of fine. Argue in court that as you offered legal tender to pay the fine and it was refused; therefore, you owe TfL nothing.

I presume TfL has amended the conditions of carriage.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
[qb] [crosspost]

Small proportions, but large numbers - i.e. thousands of people.

In London alone?

Yes, definitely.

A subset of homeless people + a subset of mentally ill people + a subset of people with neurological injuries + a subset of people with alcohol & drugs problems + a subset of people with early stage dementia + a subset of people with ADHD + a subset of people learning disabilities + a subset of people with any combination of the above. These people routinely. Plus an ever changing group of people who become intoxicated and stranded late at night - and therefore vulnerable.

London has over eight million people in, what percentage of people do you think may fall into this combined group ?

quote:

quote:
And is it really that unreasonable to expect to be able to continue to pay for services with money ? After all, that is what the point of having a currency is, isn't it ?

You can in London - with a contactless payment card.

My apologies, actual physical units of currency, or cash, or whatever you want to call it.

[ 07. July 2014, 18:34: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

(FWIW, 1000 is 0.0125% of 8,000,000.)

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

It occurs to me, Doublethink, that if there are disabled people (within the meaning of the Equality Act 2010) who are being disadvantaged by the ending of cash payments on London buses, the matter could be settled by bringing an action against Transport for London for breach of s15 of the Act (which deals with disability discrimination, and as you probably know defines it rather more widely than discrimination on the grounds of the other protected characteristics). TfL would presumably argue that the ending of cash payments was a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate end, and the courts could decide whether this was indeed the case.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I always pay cash in supermarkets, and it amuses me sometimes to see someone with a credit/debit card taking ages to do the payment, whereas I'm through in about 5 seconds.

I get really pissed off when waiting to get served in a pub and some pillock is paying for two drinks with a debit card. It really slows down the service. When I'm Prime Minister I'll ban the use of credit/debit cards in pubs.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I get really pissed off when waiting to get served in a pub and some pillock is paying for two drinks with a debit card. It really slows down the service. When I'm Prime Minister I'll ban the use of credit/debit cards in pubs.

As long as you mandate that all pubs should have cash machines within easy reach, I'll support you all the way!

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Oh yes, absolutely. Or students in corner shops, buying a sandwich and a Coke on a debit card. You don't carry cash? Who do you think you are- the Queen?

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I always pay cash in supermarkets, and it amuses me sometimes to see someone with a credit/debit card taking ages to do the payment, whereas I'm through in about 5 seconds.
I get really pissed off when waiting to get served in a pub and some pillock is paying for two drinks with a debit card. It really slows down the service. When I'm Prime Minister I'll ban the use of credit/debit cards in pubs.

We've got some real Luddites in the house here!

All of this is more reason to expand contactless debit cards which are the fastest way to pay AND accepted on London buses. It takes 2 seconds to pay with my debit card and no PIN required unless it's more than £20 - which two drinks at a pub would not reach, even in London!

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

When contactless payments are universal I might, reluctantly, accept your point. Actually I have Wendell Berry moments when I'd like to do everything in cash so as not to leave a trail, but, alas, I don't think it's really possible.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

I visited most capital cities in Europe and have never had any problem buying some sort of bus card in a shop. No cash needed.

In Germany you buy the ticket before you get on the bus (by cash or card) they are available in machines at bus stops and in shops, then you have it franked on a clipper machine on the bus. The driver isn't involved. If your ticket hasn't been franked you are fined heftily on the spot, if caught. You can buy as many tickets as you like in advance, or an Oyster type card.

Problem solved.

The buses are always on time and never have to hang around at stops.

Trust Germany to get it right.

[ 08. July 2014, 10:42: Message edited by: Boogie ]

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

Never mind Germany, I used to live in Plzeň in the Czech Republic and the system was the same. You could buy tickets from machines at the stops, or there was an Oyster-like card which you could also use (for some reason) to buy theatre tickets (shades of Alderman Foodbotham's Bradford Fine Arts and Tramways Committee). I could turn up at the tram stop a minute before it was due and be almost sure of arriving in work on time even though I had to change trams en route. That's right, a provincial town in a post-Communist state with a permanent political crisis can still outclass my home town.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Boogie:

quote:
In Germany you buy the ticket before you get on the bus (by cash or card) they are available in machines at bus stops and in shops, then you have it franked on a clipper machine on the bus.

They had this when I was living in France nearly 30 years ago. It's not cutting-edge technology.

Some of Doublethink's clients might have trouble with the idea of buying the ticket beforehand and getting it clipped on the bus; this system also requires pre-planning skills.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
It takes 2 seconds to pay with my debit card and no PIN required unless it's more than £20 - which two drinks at a pub would not reach, even in London!

Yes, and there's absolutely no proof against identity theft with this. They can run up a string of small purchases one at a time with your contactless card if they feel like it. Cash in the hand is at least finite - spend it and it's gone.

Also, it's possible to accidentally pay for something twice with contactless, or in some cases, when you haven't even swiped the card, but are merely standing near a POS.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Boogie:
quote:
In Germany you buy the ticket before you get on the bus (by cash or card) they are available in machines at bus stops and in shops, then you have it franked on a clipper machine on the bus.
They had this when I was living in France nearly 30 years ago. It's not cutting-edge technology.

Some of Doublethink's clients might have trouble with the idea of buying the ticket beforehand and getting it clipped on the bus; this system also requires pre-planning skills.

I know it's not new - but it works! Why we can't have it here I've no idea.

Having the right change in your pocket requires far more pre-planning, as fineline pointed out. If they had cash they could very quickly turn it into a ticket. And, with frequent and reliable buses, due to the excellent system, they wouldn't have long to wait for the next bus.

Win win!

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Yes, and there's absolutely no proof against identity theft with this. They can run up a string of small purchases one at a time with your contactless card if they feel like it. Cash in the hand is at least finite - spend it and it's gone.

Also, it's possible to accidentally pay for something twice with contactless, or in some cases, when you haven't even swiped the card, but are merely standing near a POS.

Yes the future is terrifying, isn't it.

I have an app on my phone to check my online banking, which I do every 2 days or so. My husband checks his daily. Contactless purchases appear in the statement with a symbol next to them to clearly identify them, so that you can easily track the charges and notify the bank of any that are fraudulent.

As opposed to cash, which can be pickpocketed and used with no means of tracing the criminal's identity at all. I've had my purse stolen and while I never got the cash back, my bank cancelled the card and my mobile phone was insured. The cash is the only thing that I ended up losing for good.

A relative had nearly £1000 stolen from her bank account in less than 24 hours by using an ATM that had been tampered with; they skimmed her card details. So getting cash from a bank in and of itself is a risk. The police told her that she should only get cash from inside of the bank branch because they are less often targeted.

So if you want to be completely safe, you should only withdraw cash within the branch and ensure that you are never pickpocketed or mugged.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I have an app on my phone to check my online banking, which I do every 2 days or so. My husband checks his daily.

Which evidently you feel you have to do every 24-48 hours, because you can't trust the system.

Ah well. I can't say I'm impressed with the cultural shift towards making everything virtual, but while I have a choice, I'll stick with real items.

I never used to feel like this but I'm seeing older people marginalized by not having the internet or smartphones, and it should be a socially acceptable choice, rather than people being made to feel they're missing out because they haven't got a computer or something to run apps on - and maybe they've managed perfectly well for years without one and don't feel any need to join the endless race of buy this, upgrade, pass the device on, get replacement, upgrade, pass the device on...

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

I still find that one can get on well enough without a smartphone. I can't imagine it being so easy to avoid the internet--obviously I have no desire to do that--but I have never owned a smartphone, and neither has my husband. In fact, we only own a single dumbphone together, and don't find it any trouble. Which is not to say that some people don't absolutely need a smartphone or that a time won't come when the rest of us will feel we need one. Still I'm always a little baffled by people who feel they need one and are marginalized by it. Except it turns out that they only need it to check facebook or use an app to see when the bus comes. My friends have yet to abandon me for not checking facebook every hour, and the bus gets to the transfer point just as reliably whether or not I confirm that it's coming at its scheduled time. And so forth

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I still find that one can get on well enough without a smartphone.

I don't have one, because the things are so hideously expensive in the US. I don't even have a dumb cellphone (which I could get for about $100/year) because I'd get so little use out of the thing that I'd end up leaving it in the office / home / my bag, or leaving it uncharged because I hadn't noticed, etc.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Which evidently you feel you have to do every 24-48 hours, because you can't trust the system.

Rubbishing keeping an eye on one's bank account because you wish to argue that using a card to pay for the bus - is totally moronic.

Railing against debit cards honestly is going to look like people who said the internet was a fad 20 years ago.

I'll never forget watching Question Time one night and seeing David Dimbleby say "Apparently you can reach us on a Twitter now?" A few years later and he's talking about hashtags like he was born using them. It's called technological advance, accept it and move on.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Or *can't* use one effectively. Incidentally, re the example of dysmorphic disorder and paranoia, these are not conditions which can be meaningfully described as choices. Nor is a severe deficit in abstract thought, or bipolar disorder.
But how many people have one or more of these conditions to the extent that they are unable to cope with a cashless / card-only transport system but can cope with one that requires cash (including cash-only)? What numbers are we talking about?

At a guess, I'd say the numbers are very small. I don't want to exclude anyone from public transport but at the same time no-one has the right to a personally-tailored system.

But you will exclude people, whether you want to or not - people who can't cope with the system that you prefer. Given that disabilities are what prevent use of that system, I can't see how this wouldn't be institutional disablism.

[ 08. July 2014, 14:40: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Oyster cards do not require photo ID, only if you choose to register them at that level (there are two levels of registration). And you only have to do that level of registration if you're putting monthly or above season tickets on them. Oh, or if you're claiming a reduced fare for a reason - so 11-15 card. They are just bits of plastic, like a bank card or a credit card.

You can buy as many Oysters as you want. And although £5 for a card sounds expensive, it's not in relation to the fares. It's less than a single peak cash fare into London for me. I save the cost of an Oyster the first return journey I do on it off-peak, rather than paying cash. Further in, the fare differences are similar.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Yes, and there's absolutely no proof against identity theft with this. They can run up a string of small purchases one at a time with your contactless card if they feel like it. Cash in the hand is at least finite - spend it and it's gone.

Also, it's possible to accidentally pay for something twice with contactless, or in some cases, when you haven't even swiped the card, but are merely standing near a POS.

Maybe it depends on the provider, but I thought you were supposed to be prompted for your PIN after a certain number of transactions even if all those transactions are for £20 or less.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Bugger the lot of you, (unless you agree with me.). I'm outta here.

[ 08. July 2014, 18:48: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Well, I'm not going to agree with you, because you've made a number of assumptions about how London buses work and a significant proportion of those assumptions are wrong.

I travel around London on the buses all the time. Today I have travelled on the D7, 277, D6 and 25 (plus DLR and Tube). That travel was during the day, some is escorting students around. I can't remember the last time I saw anyone pay by cash. In fact the two times I tried a few months ago the bus drivers were really resistant to taking money, one refused entirely even though I was proffering change. What I see used is cards either by touch in on the readers, or showing of day travel cards or concessionary cards.

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

Sweet Fancy Moses, I thought I had escaped ever having to read about the arcana of London's transit system when I left the Circus.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Sweet Fancy Moses, I thought I had escaped ever having to read about the arcana of London's transit system when I left the Circus.

It's another one of those topics that can appear anywhere on the Ship.

Heaven: Fun things that can be seen on the Tube.

Purgatory: Can London transport be fixed?

Hell: Bloody London transport!

All Saints: Our Shipmeet location needs to be convenient for public transport.

Ecclesiantics: Is it possible to have a Morning Prayer service on the Circle Line?

Kerygmania: Maybe the Amish are right.

Dead Horses: They've painted a bus in rainbow colours.

The Circus: Mornington Crescent.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

Ecclesiantics: Is it possible to have a Morning Prayer service on the Circle Line?

For the record, no it isn't. You need the Victoria Line for that.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I suggest a journey between Temple, St Paul's and Blackfriars tube stations might be suitable for theological cogitation. Mind the gap!

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

What about tying your use of the Underground to the liturgical calendar, so that you only use the line whose colour is appropriate for the season?

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ecclesiantics: Is it possible to have a Morning Prayer service on the Circle Line?

Would you settle for the Stations of the King's Cross?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

[Killing me]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Well, that's the Catholics and High Anglicans sorted, then!

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

Nonconformists can use the Waterloo and City line as that is a bland colourless line

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Nonconformists can use the Waterloo and City line as that is a bland colourless line

Only if deep-level stations aren't in Nidd (Grassington Convention, 2006, Proceedings, Vol.37 Paras 45qq-51z)

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

I know I've been on holiday for a while but I'm sure this isn't The Circus. Unless it's Oxford Circus.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Nonconformists can use the Waterloo and City line as that is a bland colourless line
Only if deep-level stations aren't in Nidd (Grassington Convention, 2006, Proceedings, Vol.37 Paras 45qq-51z)

In any case, it doesn't run on Sundays!

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

May I call Mornington Crescent?

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

Yes. You've won. GAME OVER.

No more MC in Hell. Go inflict that shit on DT, iF, and Pengu in the Circus if you must, but not here.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

Sadly from over here in Seattle, cashless buses causing difficulties seems like a minor problem.

We have passes and cash boxes, but we're about to lose 30 percent of bus service due to lack of funding. The County wide referendum to increase funding for the Metro transit failed, so there's a ballot initiative to raise taxes in the city to keep most of the city buses. Alas, they'll still probably cut the only bus that goes within a half hour walk of my house.

The cuts will disproportionately hit the poor and all the people who don't have cars as do all the fare increases.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Sadly from over here in Seattle, cashless buses causing difficulties seems like a minor problem.

We have passes and cash boxes, but we're about to lose 30 percent of bus service due to lack of funding. The County wide referendum to increase funding for the Metro transit failed, so there's a ballot initiative to raise taxes in the city to keep most of the city buses. Alas, they'll still probably cut the only bus that goes within a half hour walk of my house.

The cuts will disproportionately hit the poor and all the people who don't have cars as do all the fare increases.

Yes, that's a major problem where I live too - that certain bus routes are being cut. And it's generally the bus routes to and from the poorer areas. For myself, I can either leave my house at 7:30am and walk four miles to work, or leave my house at 7:30am and walk twenty minutes to the bus stop that has a bus which stops a ten minute walk away from I work, and then take this bus and arrive at work forty minutes early. There used to be a later bus, but that has been cut. There also used to be several buses that went from outside my house to the bus stop where I take the bus to work, but most have been cut, and the one remaining one is very unreliable. Hence most of the time I just walk to work, unless I'm very tired. I wouldn't be able to do it if I had a mobility disability.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

The bus which stops right outside my house stops running permanently as from 6 pm today!

Fortunately it is only about a 10 minute walk to other services, but grrrr!

Posted by Persephone Hazard (# 4648) on :

I'm a bit baffled by how difficult people seem to think this is. I'm scatterbrained as all hell, but I just keep my Oystercard in my purse and, you know, top it up when it runs out. When you hit the barrier and realise it's out of money you just go and top it up at one of the machines that is undoubtedly nearby. I can't *remember* the last time it occurred to me to try and pay for London public transport in cash. It feels like a baffling and unlikely idea.

And actually, it's great for being so shit broke that you don't always know if you can pay the rent, because you can keep your travel money tucked away safe on your Oyster card and not have to worry about anything else eating it up.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Persephone Hazard:
I'm a bit baffled by how difficult people seem to think this is. I'm scatterbrained as all hell, but I just keep my Oystercard in my purse and, you know, top it up when it runs out. When you hit the barrier and realise it's out of money you just go and top it up at one of the machines that is undoubtedly nearby.

Undoubtedly? I've never seen such a machine near a bus stop. Where are they hidden?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Correct. You can top-up at a Tram stop but not a Bus stop (I think). However there are loads of shops (typically little newsagents) where you can top-up.

TfL have an app. on their website which will tell you where the nearest shop is - not much use for me though as I don't have a smartphone. And, of course, the shop's no good if it's closed.

I don't know if bus stops have a notice telling you where the nearest top-up point is. However (1) you can make one more journey with no credit on your card and (2) in most parts of (central) ondon you're near a tube station where you can top-up - again, not much use if it's 2 am and you're on the night bus!

Ultimately it is your responsibility to make sure you have enough credit - just as, in the days of "cash only", it was your responsibility to make sure you had cash in your purse. The difference is that cash is more obviously visible.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
However there are loads of shops (typically little newsagents) where you can top-up.

See my earlier post. There is one shop close to where I live that does Oyster, but their machine seems to be broken most of the time. All the other nearest outlets are a bus ride away.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Whereas where I am, outside the area where the London buses operate, I can top up an Oyster in two newsagents and at the tube station.

Buying a day travel card (paper ticket) for a flaky student most days (because he loses Oyster cards regularly) there are two DLR stations and a tube station within 5 minutes walk of his flat, and two of those are next to bus stops. And he can use that ticket on buses, trains, tube and DLR from Zones 1-6.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

Good for you. That doesn't alter the fact that I don't have any of that nearby.

[ 16. July 2014, 22:37: Message edited by: Spike ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Persephone Hazard:
I'm a bit baffled by how difficult people seem to think this is.

And I'm a bit baffled how difficult it is to understand that the millions upon millions of people living in the London area, and the millions more who visit London, do not all have the same lives, or the same brains, or live next to the same corner shop.

[ 17. July 2014, 02:58: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

When I was back in the UK last month for my mother-in-law's funeral, I went to visit my daughter in London. I used my oyster card to pay on the bus. On the second bus, my card ran out of money and issued me with an emergency ticket allowing me to travel on that bus and then when I reached a machine and topped up the cost of the fare was deducted from the money I put on the card. My daughter thinks you get one emergency ride only, otherwise people could end up running up huge debts.
I thought that was a really helpful provision.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Yes, Oyster cards allow a debit charge.

An Oyster card won't let you through the barriers to a tube if there's not enough on the card for any journey, but if the journey costs more than the credit on the card the barriers give an audible warning at the end of that trip, and the window on the end of the barrier gives the cost of the journey and the balance on the card - which warns you that you now owe it money and can wander over to the cash machines and top up.

On a bus you get the same sounds - beep to let you on without problem, alarm beeping if there is a problem - but you can't see the balance.

It won't be the main areas of London where there will be a problem, it will be the outlying areas which aren't served by any stations (either overground, mainline, tube or DLR) easily but mainly by buses.

Thinking about the different places I travel to work with students across London, none of them are further than 15-20 minutes walk from a tube station or a bus ride. The one that is 15-20 minutes walk from a station has a newsagent selling Oyster top ups around the corner, near to the bus routes. And in those outside areas that I see there are Dial-a-Ride buses for the less mobile.

Bus rides are flat rate at £1.45, however long the journey.

Posted by Stumbling Pilgrim (# 7637) on :

What do you do if you're visiting London for the day and want to make one bus journey, so not worth getting a day ticket? (Not a rhetorical question, I'm probably going to need to know this)

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I presume (not living in London) that this means the bus-stop ticket machines have gone. That is good in terms of roadside clutter (they were big and bulky) - but what a waste of money in putting them in to start with! However I understand that they were little used, with virtually all the fares they collected going on their maintenance ... technology has just moved on.

Mind you, I am old enough to remember the first "pay as you enter" buses in London - no Oyster cards in those days, or even pre-paid tickets. You either went in on the left and paid the driver, or on the right, used the ticket machine and went through the turnstile. The ticket machines were slow and fiddly, the turnstiles hard to push through and utterly non-buggy-friendly. Most folk paid the driver (who then had to give change), bus timetables got slower and slower - it contributed to the disastrous decline in service of the 1970s, only recently reversed.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Use a cashless card to pay as you get on the bus - you need a card that does it automatically. Or buy an Oyster with enough money on it to cover the bus journey and cash it back in when you've finished.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stumbling Pilgrim:
What do you do if you're visiting London for the day and want to make one bus journey, so not worth getting a day ticket? (Not a rhetorical question, I'm probably going to need to know this)

Having trawled TfL's website, I think Curiosity has the right answer. I don't think that single bus tickets are available any more. Does anyone know differently?

[ 17. July 2014, 08:30: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Stumbling Pilgrim (# 7637) on :

Thanks both. Right, so since I don't have a contactless card I have to:-
1. Get off train. (all right, I'd have to do that anyway.)
2. Find somewhere to buy Oyster.
3. Queue up to buy Oyster.
4. Make bus journey.
5. Find somewhere to cash in Oyster. (I have tried to do this on a weekend when I had a train to catch. Wasn't possible in the time I had.)
6. Queue up to cash in Oyster.
7. Go about my business.

Or I could pay twice as much to go by Tube.
(Not getting at anyone here, thanks again for the advice, but slightly annoyed at the extra time this is going to take me.)

[ 18. July 2014, 08:59: Message edited by: Stumbling Pilgrim ]

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stumbling Pilgrim:
Right, so since I don't have a contactless card I have to:-
1. Get off train.
2.

It's only buses that are cashless. Trains, tubes and trams you can still buy a ticket with cash. For now, anyway.

Posted by Stumbling Pilgrim (# 7637) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:

quote:
Originally posted by Stumbling Pilgrim:
Right, so since I don't have a contactless card I have to:-
1. Get off train.
2.
It's only buses that are cashless. Trains, tubes and trams you can still buy a ticket with cash. For now, anyway.

Heh! You were too quick for me Spike, you replied after I hit post too soon and before I had a chance to do the post properly! [Hot and Hormonal]

(and yeah, that 'for now' was in my mind too)

[ 18. July 2014, 09:02: Message edited by: Stumbling Pilgrim ]

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stumbling Pilgrim:
What do you do if you're visiting London for the day and want to make one bus journey, so not worth getting a day ticket? (Not a rhetorical question, I'm probably going to need to know this)

If you are arriving in London at an airport, train station, coach station, or tube station, you will be able to buy an Oyster card there and top up the amount you need for your journey. One bus trip is £1.45.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Sure, but as SP has said that will entail buying the card, putting on the credit (and I think the minimum you can put on is £5), making the journey, then finding somewhere to get a refund.

Of course, Oysters and the credit on them don't expire - so he can keep it for his next trip to London (as we do, even though we only go rarely).

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Buying the card and topping it up is quicker at the machines and they still take cash or ordinary bank cards. That queue will be the same as going anywhere else by tube.

The long queue will be to cash it in

Posted by Signaller (# 17495) on :

But if you are visiting for the day by train, you almost certainly have the option to buy an add-on day travelcard when you buy your train ticket. That's valid on buses, with no need to buy an Oystercard.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I have purchased my Oyster cards by mail. All that is left now is to hope that they arrive before I depart. Can one just go to the station to cash in unused Oyster money? I am hoping to do this at Heathrow, shortly before I step on the departing airplane.

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

What is this, the Transport for London Oyster Card FAQ board?

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Signaller:
But if you are visiting for the day by train, you almost certainly have the option to buy an add-on day travelcard when you buy your train ticket. That's valid on buses, with no need to buy an Oystercard.

It also gives you the freedom of the buses and the Underground, i.e. if things don't go according to plan you aren't stuck, and can take another route, stop off on impulse, etc. Personally I wouldn't bother with getting an Oyster just for one day when I can get a Travelcard add-on.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
What is this, the Transport for London Oyster Card FAQ board?

I'm merely grateful this tangent isn't on TICTH.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

When I die in, say, 45 years time, I shall bequeath to my nephew my collection of transport cards, brought home from all the places in the world that I only visited once in my fucking lifetime that didn't happen to have a way of recouping the value of the thing at the airport I left from.

There may be a few duplicates, of course. I mean, at my current rate of travel, I may visit London as often as TWICE a decade seeing how my best friend lives in the UK. And I'm bound to forget, once in a while, to bring my shiny Oyster card with me.

And heck, they'll probably replace the system once in a while, and they'll probably do it in between so that when I turn up they'll say "sorry, you can't trade that in, the grace period ended 3 years ago".

They're not doing this to improve customer service, folks. They're doing it to have a guaranteed source of revenue. They're doing it to take cash off you before you actually need the transportation, and then hope that a proportion of you won't ever actually make use of all the transportation that you've paid for. Hey, if you don't make the full value of your purchase, that's YOUR fault, not theirs, right?

They'll take just a little extra of most people, yes, but spread that over the millions and millions of people that use the system (including all the visitors), and it's a bonanza.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

orfeo, you're not the only person to have that thought. According to this Evening Standard story from last summer a Freedom of Information enquiry from the Liberal Democrats elicited that there's £100 million (accurately £99.6 million) sitting on unused Oyster cards.

You can post your Oyster back to get a refund, apparently. They will refund by cheque or payment to UK bank accounts. (I've only ever had to deal with losing one with a weekly season ticket on it.)

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