Originally posted by Lothlorien:
quote:My grandson can see nothing wrong in "versing " another team. We are versing xyz on Saturday.
Noun as verb: to "medal" - this one was prevalent at the London Olympics.
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
quote:You are apparently a gear-head like me: Both of those phrases were originated by Ryan Friedlinghausen, host and owner of West Coast Customs, a US television programme on a channel that specializes in interesting cars.
Originally posted by Ariel:
"You have to wait for the reveal at the end."
"It's a new build...."
quote:...when this sort of thing...
Originally posted by Ariel:
when these sorts of things
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
quote:discreet/discrete.
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
And then there are parameter/perimeter, reluctant/reticent, immensity/enormity and decimate/devastate.
And yes, we may occasionally begin a sentence with "and".
quote:Four different words, as they mean something different as nouns than as verbs.
Originally posted by PeteC:
Many people do not understand that effect and affect are two different words.
quote:My grandson can see nothing wrong in "versing " another team. We are versing xyz on Saturday.
Noun as verb: to "medal" - this one was prevalent at the London Olympics.
quote:I consider myself chastised.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:Four different words, as they mean something different as nouns than as verbs.
Originally posted by PeteC:
Many people do not understand that effect and affect are two different words.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:Shouldn't it be "versusing"?
Originally posted by Lothlorien:
quote:My grandson can see nothing wrong in "versing " another team. We are versing xyz on Saturday.
Noun as verb: to "medal" - this one was prevalent at the London Olympics.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:Excellent. I’m glad to hear the Poetic Muse is flourishing in his part of the world. I shall think of him as he boldly strides forth, scroll in hand, to declaim his beautifully composed verses to the other team. That’s a clear sign of the true sporting spirit, not only being able to praise the opposing team, but to do so in poetic metre and scansion. Let him verse his opposing team, by all means.
Originally posted by Lothlorien:
quote:My grandson can see nothing wrong in "versing " another team. We are versing xyz on Saturday.
Noun as verb: to "medal" - this one was prevalent at the London Olympics.
quote:It's not "impactful" enough. (Used to get that horror at work.)
Originally posted by Dafyd:
My personal peeve is 'impact' used to mean 'affect'. What is wrong with 'affect'?
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
quote:Don't know how to break this to you, but -ze is considered perfectly acceptable by Oxford.
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
Inspirational. No. You mean inspiring.
Moisturisation. No. You mean moisturising (or possibly just moisture, depending on your context) - and don't even think of putting a z in there if you're in the UK.
quote:Couldn't care less.
Originally posted by Stejjie:
quote:Don't know how to break this to you, but -ze is considered perfectly acceptable by Oxford.
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
Inspirational. No. You mean inspiring.
Moisturisation. No. You mean moisturising (or possibly just moisture, depending on your context) - and don't even think of putting a z in there if you're in the UK.
quote:Fair enough, though the point is it is originally British English, not American.
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
quote:Couldn't care less.
Originally posted by Stejjie:
Don't know how to break this to you, but -ze is considered perfectly acceptable by Oxford.
quote:Thank you for not saying "I could care less" to which my response is usually "What stops you?"
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
Couldn't care less.
quote:Data is plural though (plural of datum) - it's just that it's widely become accepted as singular as well.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Distressingly, that style bible The Economist has not only started making "data" plural, but also seems to have de-adverbified "importantly".
Two separate articles in this week's edition begin sentences with "More important, this has..." etc. But why?
quote:The police have also been known to talk about forensicating a crime scene - and it really was them (overheard on Radio 4), not just the newspaper reporting it badly.
Originally posted by Moo:
I have seen this sentence in newspapers. "The police diffused the bomb."
quote:Because that's good English. They're not saying this was done in a more important way. They're saying that this point is more important.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Distressingly, that style bible The Economist has not only started making "data" plural, but also seems to have de-adverbified "importantly".
Two separate articles in this week's edition begin sentences with "More important, this has..." etc. But why?
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
quote:Fair enough, though the point is it is originally British English, not American.
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
quote:Couldn't care less.
Originally posted by Stejjie:
Don't know how to break this to you, but -ze is considered perfectly acceptable by Oxford.
I do prefer -ise, though - I guess just what I've grown up with.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
There is an interesting question in there about whether - or after how long - something that goes out of use and comes back in is a neologism. My reaction is based on what I have been used to - for me it grates unless the source is genuinely American. I think when you read a lot something changing for no apparent reason is quite abrasive.quote:I was dying to say this, but having stuck out my lip petulantly about -ize endings I felt I couldn't!
Originally posted by Stejjie:quote:Data is plural though (plural of datum) - it's just that it's widely become accepted as singular as well.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Distressingly, that style bible The Economist has not only started making "data" plural, but also seems to have de-adverbified "importantly".
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif){kind=icon}
I have been proof reading a lot of academic work recently and every time I see 'the data show...' my hair stands on end - but I know it's right, and that matters to me. It's torture.
quote:The verbing of nouns dates back quote a way, I think.
In IBMese any noun can be verbed
quote:This has been used in the computer/software industry for at least 25 years. Probably longer.
Originally posted by Ariel:
What is this trend to use verbs as nouns?
"It's a new build."
quote:I have to confess, I don't see what's wrong with this one.
And this horrible trend towards contractions?
"I've prepped the onions."
quote:The already-quoted verb 'to medal' (meaning 'to win a medal' is a close homophone to 'to meddle'. "She medalled/meddled in the ladies shot-put" has a certain ambiguity.
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
Can I just add 'pitting', as in 'Lewis Hamilton is pitting earlier than expected'. It is doubly wrong. Not only is it turning a noun into a verb, but by doing so it is creating a verb that already exists and means something else entirely.
quote:Presumably if the police hadn't interfered the bomb would have, er, diffused itself...
Originally posted by Moo:
defuse/diffuse
I have seen this sentence in newspapers. "The police diffused the bomb."
Moo
quote:And to me it suggests that he's eating olives while he's driving- which is just bloody dangerous.
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
Can I just add 'pitting', as in 'Lewis Hamilton is pitting earlier than expected'. It is doubly wrong. Not only is it turning a noun into a verb, but by doing so it is creating a verb that already exists and means something else entirely.
Just. Don't. Do. It.
quote:Data is plural in Latin. We don't speak Latin, we speak English.
Originally posted by Stejjie:
Data is plural though (plural of datum) - it's just that it's widely become accepted as singular as well.
quote:This usage, in the restaurant business at least, goes back decades.
Originally posted by Ariel:
And this horrible trend towards contractions?
"I've prepped the onions."
quote:When I worked in the computer biz, "legacy" meant "the damned old stuff we wish to God we could get rid of, but it would be prohibitively expensive, so we're stuck with this shit."
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
This is a good way to wind me up. I have a long list of verbal atrocities that annoy me. Latest addition (No. 49):
Legacy: Applied to anything from computer software to aircraft engines.
Meaning: Our old product is still good, but we gave it this reverent title so we could make more money from our gullible customers with its unnecessary replacement.
quote:Good point!
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Which of these two women is dead?
Seat belt may have saved woman's life.
Seat belt might have saved woman's life.
quote:The verb is "prepare". Why shorten it in this childish way? Is “prepare” too difficult to pronounce, or too long a word?
Originally posted by Siegfried:
quote:I have to confess, I don't see what's wrong with this one.
And this horrible trend towards contractions?
"I've prepped the onions."
quote:Presumably after the place had been "burglarized". A while ago I came across a sentence on a news site about how the police had been called in to investigate some kind of trouble at an airport. "The passengers were de-planed and canines taken on board."
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
The police have also been known to talk about forensicating a crime scene - and it really was them (overheard on Radio 4), not just the newspaper reporting it badly.
quote:I disagree. If they said "the more important point is that..." then that would be ok. But "More important," qualifies what comes next. So it should be an adverb.
Originally posted by mousethief:
Because that's good English. They're not saying this was done in a more important way. They're saying that this point is more important.
The way they said it is the right way. Saying "more importantly" is to adverbify an adjective without warrant. It is wrong.
quote:No, people, it's "had been." No "would" involved in that phrase, except between your ears.
If my cousin would have been at the party, things would be different.
quote:Perhaps it is a natural response to the use of nouns as verbs, as Calvin pointed out decades ago.
Originally posted by Ariel:
What is this trend to use verbs as nouns?
quote:Sorry, but one of my sore points is British people who write ass instead of arse.
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
But then there are the Manifest Wrongnesses - 'of' for 'have', 'diffuse' for 'defuse'. When I see things like this, I have an urge to get all Ghenghis on the perpetrators' asses.
quote:Oh good, this is when I get to point out that "burglarize" is actually the original word for the action performed by a burglar, whereas "burgle" is a late 19th century back-formation.
Originally posted by Ariel:
Presumably after the place had been "burglarized".
quote:You don't think Adeodatus feels the urge to beat up people's donkeys?
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:Sorry, but one of my sore points is British people who write ass instead of arse.
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I have an urge to get all Ghenghis on the perpetrators' asses.
quote:This is precisely an example of what I was talking about in regard to style and rules. It simply doesn't work to say (and I apologise for misspelling 'Genghis') 'I have an urge to get all Genghis on the perpetrators' arses'. That expression has to be cast in an American idiom. Obviously it's meant to sound silly, but substituting the British 'arse' makes it silly in the wrong way.
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:You don't think Adeodatus feels the urge to beat up people's donkeys?
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:Sorry, but one of my sore points is British people who write ass instead of arse.
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I have an urge to get all Ghenghis on the perpetrators' asses.
quote:Data is plural in Latin. We don't speak Latin, we speak English.
Originally posted by mousethief:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stejjie:
[qb]Data is plural though (plural of datum) - it's just that it's widely become accepted as singular as well.
quote:It's hardly that new, given it apparently goes back to the 1860s when referring to a prep school and the 1900s as a contraction of prepare. Complaining about it now is bolting the stable door long after that horse has not only left but completed the course with key in hand and come back for a nice bundle of hay and a rest.
Originally posted by Ariel:
The verb is "prepare". Why shorten it in this childish way? Is “prepare” too difficult to pronounce, or too long a word?
quote:Noooooo! It's becoming more widely accepted as the plural form of the singular datum.
Originally posted by Stejjie:
Not quite... data is, technically, plural in English as well as Latin, it's just that it's becoming more widely accepted as singular
quote:I'd agree with that. Sometimes, in British English, only 'arse' will do - when referring to bishops, for example, or when trying to find the plural for the letter r. 'Ass' should be reserved for the American idiom.
Originally posted by Albertus:
Yes, I suppose it is an American expression, so in this context, perhaps it's OK. But too many British people use 'ass' instead of 'arse' all the time.
quote:That would be a hanging participle. The point that is more important is not the 'this' that is the subject of the sentence, but the results of the this. 'Importantly' can qualify the verb 'has'. If the writer followed 'important' with a colon rather than a comma you might have a point.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Because that's good English. They're not saying this was done in a more important way. They're saying that this point is more important.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Two separate articles in this week's edition begin sentences with "More important, this has..." etc. But why?
quote:means, if it means anything, that UKIP's victory is more important than the deeper disenchantment with politics. That's probably the opposite of what the writer intended. If one insists on using 'important' one could write:
More important, UKIP's victory is a sign of a deeper disenchantment with politics,
quote:
More important is UKIP's victory, because it is a sign of a deeper disenchantment with politics.
quote:Impact is what makes a bomb crater!
Originally posted by Dafyd:
My personal peeve is 'impact' used to mean 'affect'. What is wrong with 'affect'?
quote:Nah. I just take it as an ellipsis for "What's more important, ..." Your reading requires bending the sentence into impossible positions.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:means, if it means anything, that UKIP's victory is more important than the deeper disenchantment with politics. That's probably the opposite of what the writer intended.
More important, UKIP's victory is a sign of a deeper disenchantment with politics,
quote:O God No! God's Isle is being infected by American barbarisms! Aux barricades!
Originally posted by Albertus:
Sorry, but one of my sore points is British people who write ass instead of arse.
quote:To which the answer is 'That's for Father Christmas to decide.'
Originally posted by leo:
...
"How are you?"
"I'm good."
...
quote:Well, he could have said "To go boldly" and avoided sounding like a donkey's backside.
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
A great example of style vs rules is that Captain Kirk would have sounded a total arse - or ass - if he'd said "Boldly to go..." instead of "To boldly go...".
quote:Thank you, yes, I did notice. That brings me to another point. Almost nobody seems to be able to spell Gandhi correctly. It's not Ghandi. It never was.
(and I apologise for misspelling 'Genghis')
quote:I would have written Lewis' call not Lewis's. I have a vague memory that both are considered correct but I really prefer the former.
"It should be Commander Lewis's call," Mitch said.
quote:I avoid using "beg the question" because I have no idea what it really means. I've looked it up, and I still don't.
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I cringe whenever I see "beg the question" used when "prompt the question" is meant, although I'll concede that I've probably lost the battle.
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
quote:Ah. I take it your are saying something about how FTSE-listed companies' usage of 'prompt' differs from everybody else's usage?
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
'Prompts' implies that the question may or may not be something you have thought about, but the demand for an immediate answer is not overwhelming.
Yes, I do work in the head office of a FTSE-listed company.
quote:However, "to go boldly..." sounds OK to me. I think generally that adverbs often sound best after the verb, not before.
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
A great example of style vs rules is that Captain Kirk would have sounded a total arse - or ass - if he'd said "Boldly to go..." instead of "To boldly go...". The memorable phrase wins over the kind of grammatical exactitude imposed by 18th century grammarians who imagined they could force English to behave like Latin.
quote:Usual style is to write Jesus', Moses' and Achilles' for biblical and classical names, but Cmdr Lewis's or Mr. Jones's for everything else.
Originally posted by Late Paul:
quote:I would have written Lewis' call not Lewis's. I have a vague memory that both are considered correct but I really prefer the former.
"It should be Commander Lewis's call," Mitch said.
quote:Ohhhh yes. That one has us shouting at the TV. Particularly as I suspect that 'two times more' means double (twice as much) rather than the treble that is the literal interpretation. At least I think that's the literal interpretation - it's so wrong grammatically that it's hard to tell.
Originally posted by Chocoholic:
There is also an advert I keep hearing which says something is "two times" better. Twice, it's twice!
quote:"Twice better"????
Originally posted by Chocoholic:
There is also an advert I keep hearing which says something is "two times" better. Twice, it's twice!
quote:Meh. The split infinitive rule was invented by Latin scholars with small dicks. It is totally artificial.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:Well, he could have said "To go boldly" and avoided sounding like a donkey's backside.
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
A great example of style vs rules is that Captain Kirk would have sounded a total arse - or ass - if he'd said "Boldly to go..." instead of "To boldly go...".
quote:The one that really makes my teeth hurt is:
Originally posted by leo:
"How are you?"
"I'm good."
quote:Let Miss Amanda explain it for you. "Begging the question" is an error of logic that proves a premise by assuming that it is true.
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I avoid using "beg the question" because I have no idea what it really means.
quote:How about Mars's atmosphere? I suppose being named after a Roman god it falls under the classical rule?
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:Usual style is to write Jesus', Moses' and Achilles' for biblical and classical names, but Cmdr Lewis's or Mr. Jones's for everything else.
Originally posted by Late Paul:
quote:I would have written Lewis' call not Lewis's. I have a vague memory that both are considered correct but I really prefer the former.
"It should be Commander Lewis's call," Mitch said.
Some prefer s's for everything. I don't think a global preference for s' would be very common.
quote:St Thomas More had three daughters.
Originally posted by mousethief:
The split infinitive rule was invented by Latin scholars with small dicks. It is totally artificial.
quote:How about "impactful" heard from the lips of politicians and reporters.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
My personal peeve is 'impact' used to mean 'affect'. What is wrong with 'affect'?
quote:Thank you - that's a particularly good one ("episode"?), even for Calvin and Hobbes.
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:Perhaps it is a natural response to the use of nouns as verbs, as Calvin pointed out decades ago.
Originally posted by Ariel:
What is this trend to use verbs as nouns?
quote:So few people seem to understand what "begging the question" originally meant that I don't use it anyway, although I will use "beg for the question" in situations where the more common interpretation would apply with the faint hope that someone will notice, wonder, and look it up.
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:I avoid using "beg the question" because I have no idea what it really means. I've looked it up, and I still don't.
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I cringe whenever I see "beg the question" used when "prompt the question" is meant, although I'll concede that I've probably lost the battle.
quote:It's probably an overly literal translation of the original languages. I always remember our Hebrew professor complaining loudly about the mistranslation of Hebrew idioms designed to convey emphasis 'Dying I will die' instead of 'I will indeed die'.
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Has anyone else ever noticed that the AV/KJV is replete with solecisms?
Examples include ending a sentence with a preposition ("an altar to burn incense upon" Ex.30:1); non-agreement of pronoun ("walked everyone in the imagination of their evil heart" Jer.11:8); using "which" instead of "who" for human beings ("the people which stood on the other side of the sea" Jn.6:22); and a double superlative ("the most straitest sect" Acts 26:5).
What was (is?) God thinking?
quote:Um, I was simply making the point (perhaps rather ponderously)that conventions change over the centuries.
Originally posted by Macrina:
quote:It's probably an overly literal translation of the original languages. I always remember our Hebrew professor complaining loudly about the mistranslation of Hebrew idioms designed to convey emphasis 'Dying I will die' instead of 'I will indeed die'.
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Has anyone else ever noticed that the AV/KJV is replete with solecisms?
Examples include ending a sentence with a preposition ("an altar to burn incense upon" Ex.30:1); non-agreement of pronoun ("walked everyone in the imagination of their evil heart" Jer.11:8); using "which" instead of "who" for human beings ("the people which stood on the other side of the sea" Jn.6:22); and a double superlative ("the most straitest sect" Acts 26:5).
What was (is?) God thinking?
quote:Can't see the problem.
"He was laying on the floor."
quote:Actually "-odes" is a Greek plural, not a Latin.
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I'm going to nominate "octopi". The plural of octopus is either octopuses or octopodes, depending on whether you prefer the English or the Latin plural.
quote:People with small dicks can reproduce. I did.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:St Thomas More had three daughters.
Originally posted by mousethief:
The split infinitive rule was invented by Latin scholars with small dicks. It is totally artificial.
quote:Latin third declension, the natural home for words stolen from Greek.
Originally posted by mousethief:
Actually "-odes" is a Greek plural, not a Latin.
quote:I wonder if Greeks have a declension just for words.... Naaah.
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:Latin third declension, the natural home for words stolen from Greek.
Originally posted by mousethief:
Actually "-odes" is a Greek plural, not a Latin.
quote:I cannot agree with this.
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:To which the answer is 'That's for Father Christmas to decide.'
Originally posted by leo:
...
"How are you?"
"I'm good."
...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:How about "regifting"?
Originally posted by Penny S:
I have two pet peeves.
"Gifted" used as a verb, when it is an adjective. What's wrong with gave and given? (I know what's wrong with gove.) It is everywhere now.
quote:We all do this side of the pond!
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Penny S:
[qb] (I know what's wrong with gove.)
quote:So you won't like:
Originally posted by GCabot:
The real problem is the use of "good" as an adverb instead of "well."
quote:Then there's 'consists of'...
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
I'm surprised to see that no one has complained about "comprised of" yet - something I've seen at least one best-selling author use repeatedly. Is it supposed to be more sophisticated than "composed of?"
[/QB]
quote:To clarify: I'm not complaining about 'consists of', just noting that it's the third option in this situation.
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
quote:Then there's 'consists of'...
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
I'm surprised to see that no one has complained about "comprised of" yet - something I've seen at least one best-selling author use repeatedly. Is it supposed to be more sophisticated than "composed of?"
GG [/QB]
quote:Er, what about the double perfect: 'I would have loved to have been there' ?
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
How about the subjunctive?
quote:No, people, it's "had been." No "would" involved in that phrase, except between your ears.
If my cousin would have been at the party, things would be different.
I used to work in a place where the copyeditors got this wrong.
quote:These two are perfectly OK in spoken informal English, but never in writing. The 'of' for 've thing annoys me, above all, I suppose because it suggests that you're simply not thinking about what you're writing: you don't know how your own language works.
Originally posted by Penny S:
Someone mentioned the use of "of" instead of "have". Exposure to estuarine children's usage taught me that it isn't instead of "have" but instead of the contraction "'ve" as in should've, could've. An understandable error in writing spoken English. But impossible to correct.
On the other hand, there's no excuse for going "down the town" and getting "off of the bus".
quote:These are known as the prayers of the just.
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
These include the frequent use of terms such as "just", "really" and "would", as in "Lord, we would just really like to ask that you would heal her leg", instead of "Lord, please heal her leg".
quote:Oh yes - this drives me crazy. Why? Why?? WHY????
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
eta: what's a train station? Aren't they railway (or railroad) stations?
quote:I hate it every time I hear it.
Originally posted by Stejjie:
"Station stop", as in "our next station stop will be Bloggstown", though... why the additional "stop"? It's completely unnecessary.
quote:It's the conditionals where they screw it up.
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
quote:Er, what about the double perfect: 'I would have loved to have been there' ?
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
How about the subjunctive?
quote:No, people, it's "had been." No "would" involved in that phrase, except between your ears.
If my cousin would have been at the party, things would be different.
I used to work in a place where the copyeditors got this wrong.
GG
quote:I'll risk it.
Originally posted by Ariel:
Don't get me started on railspeak...
quote:Yes, 'station stop' is ugly, but it does have a precise meaning- that is, the next station at which the train will stop and the next stop which will be at a station- as opposed to a station which the train passes through and a stop at, say, a red signal. But why this degree of precision is thought to be worthwhile is beyond me.
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
quote:I hate it every time I hear it.
Originally posted by Stejjie:
"Station stop", as in "our next station stop will be Bloggstown", though... why the additional "stop"? It's completely unnecessary.
I wonder if it arose as a contraction of "the next station at which the train will stop will be Bloggstown", i.e. in distinction to the stations the train will pass through without stopping.
quote:I would have thought "source" as a verb in a business setting would mean "find a source for."
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Could someone please "source" an alternative to "source" as business-speak for beg/borrow/buy/procure/obtain or simply get?
quote:I'm guessing it's left over from coal days, when you could stop at a station, or you could stop to take on coal and water, which may have been called something like a "coal stop." Traditions being what they are, "station stop" would continue being used long after the other kind of stop had withered into irrelevance.
Originally posted by Albertus:
Yes, 'station stop' is ugly, but it does have a precise meaning- that is, the next station at which the train will stop and the next stop which will be at a station- as opposed to a station which the train passes through and a stop at, say, a red signal. But why this degree of precision is thought to be worthwhile is beyond me.
quote:This happened quite suddenly, and I wonder if it is arse-covering-in-case-of-idiots-speak for 'The next STATION that this train will stop at is Bloggstown. If it stops before then, and you insist on forcing open the doors or sticking your head out the window, and you get flattened by the next train out of Bloggstown, don't come crying to us or having your family sue us sunshine, because WE WARNED YOU.'
Originally posted by Stejjie:
... our next station stop will be Bloggstown
quote:There was a point at which I started noticing announcers using the phrase 'station stop', so I think it came in in my lifetime.
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm guessing it's left over from coal days, when you could stop at a station, or you could stop to take on coal and water, which may have been called something like a "coal stop."
quote:You actually tried answering?!?
Originally posted by no prophet:
I was asked what sounded like "are you right?" or "yuh right?", which I understood to mean "are you all right?", to which I had to think through until used to it. Not sure if the usual "fine, thanks" is the correct response or not in London.
quote:Yes. Am I not supposed to?
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:You actually tried answering?!?
Originally posted by no prophet:
I was asked what sounded like "are you right?" or "yuh right?", which I understood to mean "are you all right?", to which I had to think through until used to it. Not sure if the usual "fine, thanks" is the correct response or not in London.
quote:But when the guard says "your next station stop will be..." s/he does not know that the train will not be required to stop at, say, a red signal before it reaches the station.
Originally posted by Albertus:
Yes, 'station stop' is ugly, but it does have a precise meaning- that is, the next station at which the train will stop and the next stop which will be at a station- as opposed to a station which the train passes through and a stop at, say, a red signal. But why this degree of precision is thought to be worthwhile is beyond me.
quote:To some listeners (e.g. me), it sounds as if the speaker is vaunting his moral probity; it seems clear to me that "well" is intended.
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:I cannot agree with this.
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:To which the answer is 'That's for Father Christmas to decide.'
Originally posted by leo:
...
"How are you?"
"I'm good."
...
When someone replies, "I'm good," in that situation, they are using "good" to mean "fine." This is the same distinction between "I feel good" and "I feel well," which mean two different things.
Grammatically, it is acceptable to say, "I'm good," because "good" is being used as a predicate adjective and "am" is being used as a linking verb. The real problem is the use of "good" as an adverb instead of "well."
quote:Here in the US it's "C'n I git". I want to smack the little whippersnappers upside the head and teach them to say "May I have," I surely do.
Originally posted by Albertus:
"Can I get.." for "May I have..." as in (in bakers) "Can I get a cheese pasty?". Makes me want to butt in with "No, but if you ask the lady behind the counter nicely, she will get one for you".
quote:That's "May I please have . . ." followed by "Thank you."
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I want to smack the little whippersnappers upside the head and teach them to say "May I have."
quote:One step at a time, Amanda, one step at a time.
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:That's "May I please have . . ." followed by "Thank you."
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I want to smack the little whippersnappers upside the head and teach them to say "May I have."
quote:This makes me nauseated downside the stomach.
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
upside the head
quote:Well, so much for that theory then.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:There was a point at which I started noticing announcers using the phrase 'station stop', so I think it came in in my lifetime.
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm guessing it's left over from coal days, when you could stop at a station, or you could stop to take on coal and water, which may have been called something like a "coal stop."
quote:No, he's in his early forties: he just has an old mind! I've got nearly twenty years on him and I've never ridden on a steam train outside of Disneyland, or maybe Knott's Berry Farm down the street from it!
Originally posted by Wesley J:
Perhaps Dafyd is just very very old?
quote:Nearly every advert over here would say "two times", and yes, it drives me up the wall.
Originally posted by Chocoholic:
... There is also an advert I keep hearing which says something is "two times" better. Twice, it's twice!
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
quote:Or, in Northern Ireland, "I'm rightly", which IIRC was also used as a euphemism for being a bit squiffy.
Originally posted by Firenze:
... 'I'm bravely.'
quote:In the UK "whitewash" is used when one team fails to score. 48—12 is not a whitewash, 48—0 is.
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Team A whitewashed team B in a 48-12 match. (I thought 'to whitewash' meant to do a PR job to cover something up or to make bad sound good?)
quote:I have been seeing this for years, and I dislike it intensely.
Originally posted by Abigail:
I find it really annoying when people use 'convince' when they mean 'persuade', as in: He convinced him to have another drink.
I started seeing this in my local paper some time ago and now I'm seeing it all over the place.
quote:The OED pegs this use to 1958. Your local paper is clearly behind the Times.
Originally posted by Abigail:
I find it really annoying when people use 'convince' when they mean 'persuade', as in: He convinced him to have another drink.
I started seeing this in my local paper some time ago and now I'm seeing it all over the place.
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
quote:The hounds!
Originally posted by mousethief:
This was a new one on me -- "release" being used intransitively to mean "to be released" --
"A new report on human spaceflight releases this Friday."
Releases what?
quote:We would have done, but it upsets us too much.
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I don't think anyone has yet mentioned "text" as a verb.
quote:RRRRRRAAAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
We've been verbing nouns for ever.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
quote:Transforming adverbs into prepositional phrases.
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
We've been verbing nouns for ever. "To text" is only one of the more recent.
quote:Seems to me it would have been perfectly acceptable to say "will be released" instead of "releases." I'm fancifully imagining that this is the result of half-educated editors demanding that reporters not use the passive voice.
Originally posted by mousethief:
This was a new one on me -- "release" being used intransitively to mean "to be released" --
"A new report on human spaceflight releases this Friday."
Releases what?
quote:I remember when I was a teenager I used to take summer courses from Pasadena Association for the Gifted taught by Cal Tech students, i.e. future scientists. It was supposed to be for brilliant children. That is the proper use of it as an adjective.
Originally posted by Penny S:
I have two pet peeves.
"Gifted" used as a verb, when it is an adjective...
quote:Isn't that the person who mixes the GIN and Tonics?
Originally posted by Penny S:
As in "Who's the G&T coordinator?"
quote:Thank you for sharing that with us.
Originally posted by Twilight:
I hate it that no one ever tells anyone anything these days, they always share something with them.
I had a realtor ask me if I would share with her just how many square feet I was looking for in a house.
quote:That was the hope.
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:Isn't that the person who mixes the GIN and Tonics?
Originally posted by Penny S:
As in "Who's the G&T coordinator?"
quote:Or even the Gins and Tonic. Which no doubt you need after a day of dealing with precocious kids.
Originally posted by Penny S:
quote:That was the hope.
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:Isn't that the person who mixes the GIN and Tonics?
Originally posted by Penny S:
As in "Who's the G&T coordinator?"
quote:Without the comma it means something different.
Originally posted by Penny S:
Absolutely. I heard someone on the radio at it wholly inappropriately the other day. I suppose it could have crept in via sentences such as "She was gifted, with a talent for writing". Can that be done without the comma?
quote:And, according to the advice to teachers, one should keep giftedness and talentedness quite separate. Inexplicably.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Without the comma it means something different.
Originally posted by Penny S:
Absolutely. I heard someone on the radio at it wholly inappropriately the other day. I suppose it could have crept in via sentences such as "She was gifted, with a talent for writing". Can that be done without the comma?
Without the comma it means she has a talent for writing, full stop.
With the comma, it means she was gifted in general, and had a talent for writing in particular. It implies (but does not state) that she had other talents besides.
quote:I have heard of a sentence in a Western of someone on horseback being shot.
Originally posted by Ariel:
... and if something is "decimated", only a tenth of it is wrecked. Otherwise the word wanted is "devastated".
quote:Moo
He was literally decimated in the saddle.
quote:They shot an arm off? That would be about 10%, right?
Originally posted by Moo:
I have heard of a sentence in a Western of someone on horseback being shot.quote:Moo
He was literally decimated in the saddle.
quote:This is true of the Latin root. The English word has moved on.
Originally posted by Ariel:
... and if something is "decimated", only a tenth of it is wrecked.
quote:I'd scarcely ever speak a word if that bothered me.
Originally posted by Albertus:
True enough, I suppose. The problem is that to anyone who has the least idea about where the word comes from, the difference between the literal meaning and the current usage is so staringly obvious that the current usage just looks wrong.
quote:I would probably be more inclined to accept it if I didn't suspect that the similarity of decimate/devastate has led to the confusion. I hate being forced to accept malapropisms as proper usage.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:This is true of the Latin root. The English word has moved on.
Originally posted by Ariel:
... and if something is "decimated", only a tenth of it is wrecked.
quote:After some point, the language pundit just has to shrug and move on. I'm willing to bet 1% of the words we use daily started as malapropisms.
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:I would probably be more inclined to accept it if I didn't suspect that the similarity of decimate/devastate has led to the confusion. I hate being forced to accept malapropisms as proper usage.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:This is true of the Latin root. The English word has moved on.
Originally posted by Ariel:
... and if something is "decimated", only a tenth of it is wrecked.
quote:So why has it only become noticeable recently? I didn't grow up with it, and I'm not that old.
Originally posted by mousethief:
Of course, "gift" as a transitive verb dates to 1608, so verbing of nouns has been going on for some time.
quote:Which doesn't mean it has moved on for the better, even if Shakespeare moved it.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:This is true of the Latin root. The English word has moved on.
Originally posted by Ariel:
... and if something is "decimated", only a tenth of it is wrecked.
quote:I've never seen a real descriptivist. A real descriptivist would think prescriptivism was no more right or wrong than any other feature of language.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
We're back to the old battle between descriptivism and prescriptivism, which is a DH IMHO.
quote:Precisely, just as with prevarication and procrastination. Yes, they both begin with pr- and end with -ation. So do lots of other words.
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I would probably be more inclined to accept it if I didn't suspect that the similarity of decimate/devastate has led to the confusion. I hate being forced to accept malapropisms as proper usage.
quote:According to Merriam-Webster and the OED, "decimate" has never been commonly used in the narrow Latin definition in the English language. Unless used as a technical term, it has always had a broader meaning since its first recorded English usage in the mid-17th century. The notion that "decimate" should only be used in its strictest definition is a novelty of the late 19th century.
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:I would probably be more inclined to accept it if I didn't suspect that the similarity of decimate/devastate has led to the confusion. I hate being forced to accept malapropisms as proper usage.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:This is true of the Latin root. The English word has moved on.
Originally posted by Ariel:
... and if something is "decimated", only a tenth of it is wrecked.
quote:My favorite teacher from high school days would have responded 'You may if you can.'
Originally posted by no prophet:
In a restaurant, happens always these daze:
Server: "can I get you something to drink?"
Customer orders something
Server: "Perfect"
…
quote:My English teacher in the nineties had a similar policy regarding the use of "can" instead of "may." She also refused to acknowledge any question or response that included filler words, such as, "like," "um," "you know," etc.
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
My favorite teacher from high school days would have responded 'You may if you can.'
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
quote:I first saw it widely used in US Episcopalian material from the late 1970s. I thought it odd then, and my sentiments have not altered.
Originally posted by Penny S:
quote:So why has it only become noticeable recently? I didn't grow up with it, and I'm not that old.
Originally posted by mousethief:
Of course, "gift" as a transitive verb dates to 1608, so verbing of nouns has been going on for some time.
quote:And "ask", as in "it's a big ask".
Originally posted by leo:
'disconnect' used as a noun
quote:Too true. They would have had a mission, mercifully free from a mission statement.
Originally posted by piglet:
quote:And "ask", as in "it's a big ask".
Originally posted by leo:
'disconnect' used as a noun
eta: on nouns as verbs, there was a recently-released film about people rescuing artworks stolen by the Nazis, and in the trailer I saw one of the characters said "we've been tasked with ..."
Not in the 1940s he wouldn't.
**shudder**
quote:Can't say. Perhaps it was squirreled away in some language community for 400 years and only recently broke into the mainstream?
Originally posted by Penny S:
quote:So why has it only become noticeable recently? I didn't grow up with it, and I'm not that old.
Originally posted by mousethief:
Of course, "gift" as a transitive verb dates to 1608, so verbing of nouns has been going on for some time.
quote:Disconnection.
Originally posted by mousethief:
What would you use instead of the noun "disconnect"?
quote:No; all you need to say is, "There is a disconnection between his stated goals and his plans for getting there."
To say the same thing without that word requires many words. Consider "There is a disconnect between his stated goals and his plans for getting there." To say the same thing without "disconnect" requires more words.
quote:What is wrong with more words? "No connection" is simpler and no less clear.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:Disconnection.
Originally posted by mousethief:
What would you use instead of the noun "disconnect"?
quote:No; all you need to say is, "There is a disconnection between his stated goals and his plans for getting there."
To say the same thing without that word requires many words. Consider "There is a disconnect between his stated goals and his plans for getting there." To say the same thing without "disconnect" requires more words.
quote:Thanks for the explanation. Glad I missed that.
Originally posted by Penny S:
There is a comparison website which decided to use some Russian meerkats in order to sell itself. The chief meerkat used the word as his catchphrase.
quote:You'll never know just how lucky you have been.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:Thanks for the explanation. Glad I missed that.
Originally posted by Penny S:
There is a comparison website which decided to use some Russian meerkats in order to sell itself. The chief meerkat used the word as his catchphrase.
quote:But doesn't that mean the act of, or an instance of the act of, disconnecting?
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:Disconnection.
Originally posted by mousethief:
What would you use instead of the noun "disconnect"?
quote:That just doesn't sound like it means the same thing. Which is probably why the neologism arose.
all you need to say is, "There is a disconnection between his stated goals and his plans for getting there."
quote:Likely around the same time that employers engaged new hires, possibly to work in their builds.
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but when did we start having new builds, rather than new buildings? Are our lives so busy that we cannot complete words any longer (cf. disconnect/disconnection, above)?
quote:... going forward...
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Likely around the same time that employers engaged new hires, possibly to work in their builds.
quote:"
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
For example, tomorrow when we venture into a rural parish we will be "picked" at 8 o'clock and when we come back home we will "alight" from the car.
quote:And when did "probably" become "likely"?
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Likely around the same time that employers engaged new hires, possibly to work in their builds.
quote:I love "abscond"! So much so I used it in the first sentence of a story I wrote.
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
When we worked in India, "miscreants" and "antisocial elements" were always "absconding".
quote:Yes, I recently received an email from someone in India advising me that their office would be closed for one day "because of miscreants rioting".
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
When we worked in India, "miscreants" and "antisocial elements" were always "absconding".
quote:What about Deus absconditus?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:I love "abscond"! So much so I used it in the first sentence of a story I wrote.
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
When we worked in India, "miscreants" and "antisocial elements" were always "absconding".
quote:I have never used that in any story. I don't know what it means, although that doesn't necessarily stop me from using something in a story.
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:What about Deus absconditus?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:I love "abscond"! So much so I used it in the first sentence of a story I wrote.
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
When we worked in India, "miscreants" and "antisocial elements" were always "absconding".
quote:What in the world is that supposed to mean?
Originally posted by piglet:
quote:And "ask", as in "it's a big ask
Originally posted by leo:
'disconnect' used as a noun
quote:Or the similar (newer, I think) verbal tic: "I mean..."
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
Starting the reply to a question with "So,..."
quote:"To disappear someone" is usually a reference to a sinister action of kidnapping and, presumably, killing someone - something, e.g., a corrupt political regime would do to its detractors. At least that's how I've always heard it used. It makes sense, I think, to have that specific usage; to say they "made them disappear" would sound like they're doing magic tricks. And it's usually done with enough mystery that people don't really know for sure (although they do, but they don't...) what happened to the person. I'm curious, though, why that terminology would be used of veterans waiting for medical treatment. That does seem an unusual usage, to me, anyway. It seems a bit harsh to use that phrasing if a desire to "make them go away," the way you'd make a problem go away, was intended.
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
"...to disappear these people." Just now on NPR, speaking of Vets languishing on the waiting list for medical treatment.
quote:And then there's biological pedantry: men with small dicks can reproduce; surely women with small dicks can't.
Originally posted by mousethief:
People with small dicks can reproduce. I did.
quote:Yes - completely agree, I hear this one a lot. Also, "looney tunes" for "looney". No need to add the tunes.
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Another of my pet peeves is "old school" used for "old" or "old fashioned."
quote:It's used in the sense of asking someone to take on something involving a lot of work. "It's a big ask" means you have some doubt about whether they could handle the amount of work involved.
RE: "ask" - since several people have asked about it now... My own understanding, having worked in development, is that an ask (noun) is sort of a technical term. "The ask" is the whole pitch you give to a potential donor. I hope it's not being used more broadly than that.
quote:My goodness, that usage is truly barbaric.
Originally posted by Sparrow:
I first noticed it on BBC sports coverage, mostly in athletics and football, as in, "England to win the World Cup would be a big ask".
Even bigger since last night ....
quote:Aside from patrons (patronesses?) of sperm banks and a few other very small populations, most women need dicks to reproduce.
Originally posted by churchgeek:
quote:And then there's biological pedantry: men with small dicks can reproduce; surely women with small dicks can't.
Originally posted by mousethief:
People with small dicks can reproduce. I did.
quote:That puzzled me the first time I heard it too - I think they mean low atmospheric pressure, but high up.
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
... "an upper level low" ...
quote:Weather people everywhere seem to be doing that. I hate it too. I wonder where they're all getting it from?
Originally posted by piglet:
My pet peeve with one of our weather-ladies is "for your Tuesday ..." Why can't she just say "for Tuesday"?
quote:Fewer times than once a year, or even less often than the 22-stone computer geek who was probably the person that appropriated the name of my favourite sport instead of saying "wandering about the internet!"
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Since when do topics surf?
quote:I'll eat his liver on the 12th Sunday after Pentecost with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
"Moveable feast" has come to mean anyone or anything perceived as changeable and unpredictable.
This morning on the ABC I hard a politician described as a "moveable feast".
quote:How else would you express that idea, without taking 20 words to do it?
Originally posted by Bernard Mahler:
"As Winston Churchill famously said..."
How can something be said famously?
quote:Out of interest, is it now considered 'correct' to put a comma between a noun phrase and a verb, as you've done here? It always seems odd to me when people do this - it's not a construction I'm familiar with. It seems the equivalent of writing 'Jack, ate an apple'.
Originally posted by Gwai:
Those of us who are paid to make other people's language comprehensible, might disagree.
quote:"Tasty dolphin, friendly tuna" would portray our deep sea creature friends in quite a different light, wouldn't it?
Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
Tasty dolphin friendly tuna
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
"Simples" is in the same family as "totes" (totally), "obvs" (obviously), etc. Which are no doubt related to "congo" for congregation, "arvo" for afternoon, "deffo" for definitely, etc.
When the young do it, it is wrong. When, ahem, mature people do it, it is not.quote:How very dare you?!
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You do know that the English language belongs just as much to the wicked evil people who come up with these things as to you pedants, don't you?
quote:Not really. The first example contains a clause as well as a noun phrase, so it's a kind of courtesy to the reader, so that s/he can distinguish the subject from verb. Well, I think so.
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:Out of interest, is it now considered 'correct' to put a comma between a noun phrase and a verb, as you've done here? It always seems odd to me when people do this - it's not a construction I'm familiar with. It seems the equivalent of writing 'Jack, ate an apple'.
Originally posted by Gwai:
Those of us who are paid to make other people's language comprehensible, might disagree.
quote:You mean there are people who actually use these words? I'm so glad I lead a sheltered life! To me, totes are and will always be raingear.
Originally posted by mousethief:
"Simples" is in the same family as "totes" (totally), "obvs" (obviously), etc.
quote:Yes, it has a clause in it, but the whole thing is still a noun phrase, directly followed by a verb. I have noticed people sometimes putting commas at the end of such noun phrases, but it seems quite a new thing, and does not seem to be the norm (at least, not yet). I wondered if it was a new rule that some people follow.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Not really. The first example contains a clause as well as a noun phrase, so it's a kind of courtesy to the reader, so that s/he can distinguish the subject from verb. Well, I think so.
Hence, 'the man who came to dinner and proposed to my big sister, is an ass'. Whereas 'the man who came to dinner and proposed to my sister is an ass', has the oddity of 'my sister is an ass' stuck in there.
quote:I believe the correct usage would be: Whatever, obvs its just like totes amazeballs yeah ? Cos Serena is like a minger, so Jamie totally dumped her OK ? We are so on for Ibiza - he is well fit !
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:You mean there are people who actually use these words? I'm so glad I lead a sheltered life! To me, totes are and will always be raingear.
Originally posted by mousethief:
"Simples" is in the same family as "totes" (totally), "obvs" (obviously), etc.
quote:Yes, if there is a first comma, separating the clause, then you'd need to have one at the end of the clause too. But you didn't have a separate clause - it was all part of the noun phrase. I wasn't trying to find errors in your post - I was just curious because I've seen commas at the end of noun phrases a few times lately, including in published books, and as you said you have a job editing, I figured there might be a particular rule about this that you know of. And I figured it might be okay to ask, as this is a thread about grammar. I'm also seeing run-on sentences in published books, and 'lead' instead of 'led' being used as the past tense of 'lead', so these things make me wonder if new rules have been established, or old rules becoming laxer. It doesn't bother me - I just find it fascinating how language changes.
Originally posted by Gwai:
Eh, it's probably debatable. I would compare it to saying "Jack, eating an apple, jumped off the cliff." If the clause in-between is stuck in, then it should be set off with comma. Not completely the same though, so I wouldn't take a stand on it anyhow.
On the other hand, I very decisively do not post here in editor-mode, so you will certainly find spelling and punctuation errors in my ship postings.
quote:Yes, his was clearer than yours, which is why I replied to it first. Although his didn't really answer my question - rather it was just why he personally would put the comma in. I was curious if it was a grammatically accepted thing now - if there was some rule about it. I've just been googling grammar sites and all examples I've seen don't use a comma between a noun phrase and a verb. So maybe it's more of an unofficial thing.
Originally posted by Gwai:
Honestly, I think quetzalcoatl's response is much better than mine. I am tired. I know you've replied to his too, but I take back mine in favor of his, which makes more sense.
quote:Does the English language also belong to people who come up with management speak?
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You do know that the English language belongs just as much to the wicked evil people who come up with these things as to you pedants, don't you?
quote:I'm glad you raised that question. Proactive end-user perspective often facilitates communication experiences, though disruptive innovation basically pushes the envelope out of the box going forward.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Does the English language also belong to people who come up with management speak?
quote:Sorry to disagree. A tote is a container to carry some things around in. It has handles, sort of like a specially made box, bit with a lid usually. Like maybe some supplies, a collection of items which otherwise would be a box. you tote a tote around.
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:You mean there are people who actually use these words? I'm so glad I lead a sheltered life! To me, totes are and will always be raingear.
Originally posted by mousethief:
"Simples" is in the same family as "totes" (totally), "obvs" (obviously), etc.
quote:I hate to say this, but it's an error. I understand the motivation--subjects that take forever to get to the verb are a pain--and so are awkward runs of words like "my sister is an ass."
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:Yes, his was clearer than yours, which is why I replied to it first. Although his didn't really answer my question - rather it was just why he personally would put the comma in. I was curious if it was a grammatically accepted thing now - if there was some rule about it. I've just been googling grammar sites and all examples I've seen don't use a comma between a noun phrase and a verb. So maybe it's more of an unofficial thing.
Originally posted by Gwai:
Honestly, I think quetzalcoatl's response is much better than mine. I am tired. I know you've replied to his too, but I take back mine in favor of his, which makes more sense.
quote:It's taken, I think a year before anyone mentioned it. I have been asked about the province of Buffalo, Canada, but never about that. Sharpen your pencils!
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
As you wish, provided you correct the spelling error in the "From" line of your profile.
quote:That "d" has been dying for ages. "Ice cream" of course used to be "iced cream" but when's the last time you said or wrote that?
Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
Box sets, wax jackets and ice tea.
NO, FFS, they are boxed sets, waxed jackets and iced tea. How hard can it be to add the -ed or -d? A wax jacket would be worse than useless
quote:Sounds as if it ought to be a film by Ang Lee.
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Tasty dolphin, friendly tuna
quote:Possibly we are continuing the linguistic arc that saw the 'ed' ending reduced from a separate syllable - ...and bathed every veyne in swich licour.. to an alveolar stop. Which I think kicked in mid-18th century.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:That "d" has been dying for ages. "Ice cream" of course used to be "iced cream" but when's the last time you said or wrote that?
Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
Box sets, wax jackets and ice tea.
NO, FFS, they are boxed sets, waxed jackets and iced tea. How hard can it be to add the -ed or -d? A wax jacket would be worse than useless
quote:Unfortunately so. If their creations are useful, they'll catch on. If they aren't, they'll die out in time.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:Does the English language also belong to people who come up with management speak?
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You do know that the English language belongs just as much to the wicked evil people who come up with these things as to you pedants, don't you?
quote:Perhaps when you realize it is grammatically correct you will cease to be quite so irritated and you will be able to pray once more in a calm and beatific state of mind.
Originally posted by bib:
I'm very irritated at the grammatically incorrect change of words in the Lord's prayer. We used to say "as we forgive THEM that trespass against us" and yet this has been changed to the grammatically incorrect "as we forgive THOSE who trespass against us".
quote:Sorry to continue this tangent, but I assume you object to the use of "those" since you capitalized it. "Those" is a demonstrative adjective or demonstrative pronoun. In this case, then, it is being used as a pronoun, standing for "those people " - as we forgive those people who sin...". I am baffled as to what you object to here. Perhaps you can explain. I am fairly sure that most of those who are following this thread are of a pedantic nature and won't mind the digression.
Originally posted by bib:
No Jonah,it is certainly grammatically incorrect and I am constantly surprised at how many people are ignorant of this. However, I put this behind me when in prayer by praying the words that I know to be correct.
quote:I haven't looked for examples, but I notice them when they happen, because they never used to happen in anything I read. I have only started to see it recently, and in recently-written novels.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
No, it's not a grammatical rule. It's more a stylistic feature.
I think it involves long subjects, especially with a clause in them, where we might lose track. I really don't know if it has increased; it would be interesting to have a look at examples in literature and journalism. Whether I will or not, I don't know!
quote:And don't forget that "news" was a plural noun until about a century ago: "The news from Germany are bad".
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:That "d" has been dying for ages. "Ice cream" of course used to be "iced cream" but when's the last time you said or wrote that?
Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
Box sets, wax jackets and ice tea.
NO, FFS, they are boxed sets, waxed jackets and iced tea. How hard can it be to add the -ed or -d? A wax jacket would be worse than useless
quote:Yes, and "What he said."
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Anyway, I want to join the fun. I hate this, used on the internet, to mean agreement:
This.
quote:I think it's wrong in the first, and ok in the second. It's ok in the second because the phrase 'and also the application for drainage channels in existing gardens' could be omitted leaving a sensible sentence. The implication is that it's parenthetical: a bonus piece of information that's not quite as relevant as the restrictions on kitchens.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Another example: "A clean driving licence, the ability to operate under pressure and 5 years' experience in marketing, are the only criteria stipulated by the selection panel."
However, this is complicated by the list element in the subject, since lists often involve commas.
Here is another: "Government restrictions involving the extension of kitchens and bathrooms, and also the application for drainage channels in existing gardens, are not covered under this legislation."
quote:Or there may be more than one officially accepted thing. Like that discussion about commas above: I think the way I wrote it is the way that would be accepted at work, but that's one set of people interpreting a particular style guide. I doubt that would be correct in AP, and perhaps not in MLA, and so forth.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't think there is an 'officially accepted thing' with stuff like this.
quote:How do you feel about the false thanks?
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I get annoyed by what I call "the false sorry" - as in "Sorry, this bus in not in service".
quote:Ah, I see what is meant by 'official'. I thought that this was a reference to a kind of Academie Francaise, which the UK doesn't have. Yes, publishers have a set of style pointers, as do other organizations. But anyone is free to disregard them, especially creative writers. Thus, His Gorgeousness:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:Or there may be more than one officially accepted thing. Like that discussion about commas above: I think the way I wrote it is the way that would be accepted at work, but that's one set of people interpreting a particular style guide. I doubt that would be correct in AP, and perhaps not in MLA, and so forth.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't think there is an 'officially accepted thing' with stuff like this.
Re the false sorry, I have to admit I am rather entertained by the "excuse me" that means "Fuck You!" It's almost the only way I hear people say excuse me when I'm commuting. It seems so silly that people are bothering to pretend they're being polite. (Which is not to say that I've never said it *cough*)
quote:Or "Thank you for choosing to travel with us" - when there's no other company on the route.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:How do you feel about the false thanks?
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I get annoyed by what I call "the false sorry" - as in "Sorry, this bus in not in service".
"This train has been delayed. Thank you." Don't thank me, I wasn't responsible for it.
quote:Is it possible they're thanking you for (a) listening to the announcement and (b) putting up with it (as if you have a choice)?
Originally posted by Ariel:
How do you feel about the false thanks?
"This train has been delayed. Thank you."
quote:Wow, really? Hopefully the bus and the train are out of service/late because they are planning a proper route to avoid your lawns.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:How do you feel about the false thanks?
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I get annoyed by what I call "the false sorry" - as in "Sorry, this bus in not in service".
"This train has been delayed. Thank you." Don't thank me, I wasn't responsible for it.
quote:What's unfortunate about it, without lapsing into prescriptivism or other nasty evil wicked value judgements about other people's use of language?
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:Unfortunately so. If their creations are useful, they'll catch on. If they aren't, they'll die out in time.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Does the English language also belong to people who come up with management speak?
quote:If you call XYZ airline to inquire about an arrival time they end the call thanking you for calling XYZ airline. Why would I call ABC airlines to inquire about an XYZ flight?
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:Or "Thank you for choosing to travel with us" - when there's no other company on the route.
Originally posted by Ariel:
How do you feel about the false thanks?
"This train has been delayed. Thank you." Don't thank me, I wasn't responsible for it.
quote:I don't think that's necessarily true. If I see my friend waiting at a bus-stop in the rain whilst I'm on my way to the hospital with my sick mother, I may genuinely feel sorry for him, but I'm not going to stop.
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I get annoyed by what I call "the false sorry" - as in "Sorry, this bus in not in service".
If the folk running it were truly sorry, they'd stop and pick me up anyway.
quote:Those who use it would probably hate to know that the usage is similar to what happened in Latin, which didn't have a word that meant "yes". It used sic (literally "thus"), from which the Romance si and oui have come; or ita est ("that's so" -- sometimes abbreviated itast; or Recte dixisti ("you have spoken correctly") to indicate that the listener agreed with the speaker.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:Yes, and "What he said."
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Anyway, I want to join the fun. I hate this, used on the internet, to mean agreement:
This.
quote:Yes, anyone is free to disregard them, and often authors disregard them purposely to create a certain effect. Although when authors are writing a certain way not to be poetic or create an effect, but just because they are unaware of certain stylistic conventions (such as if their writing is quite prosaic and the forms they use are not adding anything to the writing) they would generally be edited to fit the accepted convention. As this comma between noun phrase and verb seems to be a new thing, I'm speculating that some publishers are being more fluid in what they accept. I imagine there are other stylistic conventions that are still adhered to though.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Ah, I see what is meant by 'official'. I thought that this was a reference to a kind of Academie Francaise, which the UK doesn't have. Yes, publishers have a set of style pointers, as do other organizations. But anyone is free to disregard them, especially creative writers. Thus, His Gorgeousness:
"Seaside girls. Torn envelope. Hands stuck in his trousers' pockets, jarvey off for the day, singing. Friend of the family. Swurls , he says. Pier with lamps, summer evening, band." Ulysses.
quote:Trying to get your tongue round that is enough to make anyone invent "Yup".
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Recte dixisti ("you have spoken correctly") to indicate that the listener agreed with the speaker.
quote:Worthy of Kenwritez and the Quotes File.
Originally posted by Firenze:
And here we have the new XL600 Problematic with fully-adjustable rotary blades, improved suction, LED display, integral hostess trolley and a cruising speed of 70 mph.
quote:Unfortunate because I think the function of a lot of management speak is to hide the fact that what's being said is devoid of context. Maybe that's an evil value judgement; maybe it's from experience.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:What's unfortunate about it, without lapsing into prescriptivism or other nasty evil wicked value judgements about other people's use of language?
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:Unfortunately so. If their creations are useful, they'll catch on. If they aren't, they'll die out in time.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Does the English language also belong to people who come up with management speak?
Obviously their creations are useful in signalling that important management is happening or else people wouldn't do it.
quote:Ah yes. He doesn't do this consistently though, from a quick look at a couple of his books, whereas he is consistent with separating clauses between noun phrase and verb with commas (which seem to be a far more common occurrence in his books than a long noun phrase directly followed by a verb).
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
More on commas after subjects, before verbs, I found an example from Dickens:
"The civility which money will purchase, is rarely extended to those who have none."
Written about 1835. Shows the same pattern, long subject with subordinate clause in it.
quote:Afraid that's not it. Check your spelling for 'existant', please (Italics mine). And while you're at it, a hyphen between 'non' and the other part of the word wouldn't go amiss either.
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:It's taken, I think a year before anyone mentioned it. I have been asked about the province of Buffalo, Canada, but never about that. Sharpen your pencils!
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
As you wish, provided you correct the spelling error in the "From" line of your profile.
quote:FYI: The Oxford Dictionary has for 'disconnection': "The state or fact of being disconnected; lack of connection, disconnectedness; the action of disconnecting".
Originally posted by mousethief:
[...]quote:But doesn't that mean the act of, or an instance of the act of, disconnecting?
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:Disconnection.
Originally posted by mousethief:
What would you use instead of the noun "disconnect"?
quote:That just doesn't sound like it means the same thing. Which is probably why the neologism arose.
all you need to say is, "There is a disconnection between his stated goals and his plans for getting there."
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
And here we have the new XL600 Problematic with fully-adjustable rotary blades, improved suction, LED display, integral hostess trolley and a cruising speed of 70 mph.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
