Ship of Fools: British Values

Thread: British Values Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :

In the wake of the serious allegations about the 'Trojan horse' schools in Birmingham, one of the fallouts has been the proposal to "teach British values" in schools (link:Daily Fail)

This has prompted some mockery (a British value in itself?) of people trying to define British values, often involving queuing, tutting, drinking tea and the like.

Leaving aside the serious discussion about the schools for another board, what do shipmates here in Heaven think could be classed as a "British value"?

Contributions are welcome from overseas, of course. Always good to see ourselves as others see us.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

I am British. Therefore, "British values" are whatever I say they are. [Devil]

<serious point here> I will not cease to be British if I suddenly give up drinking tea or develop a passion for petanque.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

Self-deprecation

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

Apologies for the double post.
This is a moment when I'm desperately sad that ken is not around to appear and tell us eloquently, accurately, hilariously, and at length, exactly what British values are. He would, you know.

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

Obviously, an important British value is chips, the national dish.

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

Speaking as an American, the two things that come to mind are dry wit and a stiff upper lip.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

Grumbling and muttering. It is something the English, Welsh and and Scots all do well. In many other respects we differ so much it is difficult to specify "British Values".

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

British people value the existence of a topic of conversation which is appropriate on every occasion, namely, the weather, and appreciate the fact that our weather is sufficiently changeable and unpredictable as to keep this topic of conversation relevant at all times.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

By "British values" I am going to assume that we mean Britain at its best. Sadly, from what I know of Michael Gove, I doubt that we would agree on what are true British values.

Above all, tolerance and welcome. It is no surprise that so many people from other nations have made their way to Britain over the years. There has always been a tendency to accept strangers and make room for them (and then adopt their recipes and some of their language).

Secondly, a deep desire for fairness. At our best, I think we get deeply uncomfortable when we experience any forms of injustice. We don't tend to articulate it well - but the general thought is "that's not the done thing."

Thirdly, a deep suspicion of extremes of belief or attitude. We like things to be balanced and moderate. Getting too worked up about anything is alien to our nature (unless it is football or cricket).

We Brits are a mongrel race and should be proud of it.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

The values of John Ball, Jack Straw (the one and only original), Wat Tyler, Jack Cade, Michael an Gof, Nicholas Flamenk, the Levellers, The Chartists, the Tolpuddle Martyrs, Wycliffe, John Bunyan, George Fox, the Wesleys, the Booths, Benjamin Waugh (only found out about him when I found no-one at school knew who their house was named after, founded the NSPCC), Shaftesbury, Wilberforce, Tom Paine, Charles Fox....anyone else stroppy I've missed.

Maybe ken might go along with Sussex Bonfire societies. Certainly the people they commemorate.

And the writer in the Guardian today, who has given academic support to something I had been cogitating on. Not a good British value Which reminds me to include above my ex-brother-in-law who seized the cane from his head teacher and threatened him with it.

I don't think Gove would approve. Doing what Gove would not approve, I think is a good marker of good British values.

Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Obviously, an important British value is chips, the national dish.

Well, one half of the national dish. You missed off the fish. Of course, the chips must be drenched in malt vinegar...

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Self-deprecation

I've tried that, but I'm not very good at it. Does that make me less British?

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

The boiled water leaf soaked liquid called tea. My Portsmouth-born, Barr Colonist, dearly departed grandmother in law inculcated me into this dreadful habit. Which a cup of, cures everything.

Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on :

Milk in last, and how to queue.
One thing I have noticed we do really well is letting other people off the train before those waiting board. I've been amazed when I've traveled how it just doesn't happen in other places.

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

The understatement and associated rhetorical devices such as litotes are not uncommon features of everyday discourse.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Bloody-mindedness. Have you got a problem with that?

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

Also - we're as proud of our failures as we are of our successes. Would any other nation turn the debacle that was Dunkirk into a moment of national triumph to be remembered with pride?

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Obviously, an important British value is chips, the national dish.

I thought it was Chicken Tikka Masala now?

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Obviously, an important British value is chips, the national dish.
I thought it was Chicken Tikka Masala now?

One may eat Chicken Tikka Masala with chips. In South Wales, "curry" is often eaten with "Half-n-half", rice and chips.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Saying sorry when it isn't your fault e.g. when someone bumps into you.

Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :

There's a lovely bit in the Captain Britain comics written by Paul Cornell, where the evil Skrull leader is gloating that they have beaten our heroes.
"Within the Skrull Empire you will know grandeur. You will know pride and determination and..."
At which point Captain Britain belts him with Excalibur and says: "I think you'll find we know already. We just don't like to make a fuss."

And real ale - don't forget real ale, as well as tea.

Posted by Fuff (# 14655) on :

Wanting the underdog to win.

Posted by Tom Day (# 3630) on :

If you were teaching them you wouldn't go far wrong just using the Very British Problems Twitter feed. One of my favourite.

This very topic was a discussion in our staff room at school today. We thought that we would have to teach the art of queuing while binge drinking...

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Having major arguments about things like whether the milk goes in first or second (in my case, first if the tea is from a pot, second if from a bag - heresy); or whether the jam or the cream goes on the scone first; or whether the meat in the pasty is minced or in chunks.

[ 10. June 2014, 19:36: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Actually, seriously, I think that a lot of them were well expressed in those famous documents upon which the USA was founded. After all, until they had actually written and signed them, the writers were British. I'm not so sure about all the amendments, though.

[ 10. June 2014, 19:56: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

Penny, it depends if you drink from fine china or barbarian quaffing pot. China requires milk first to avoid cracking due to thermal shock. If you drink teabag tea out of a mug then you may do as you please.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Quite. But that people are so insistent on their way being the one and only right way is what makes it weird. Incidentally, my tea mugs are all fine bone china - it tastes better, and they don't seem to crack. (I did have one which did.) I think it tastes better because less heat is lost to the container.
Have you heard the reason which related the order to the need to scald the milk quickly in uncertain climates?

Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :

Taking the p*** out of people in authority.

(The government isn't going to want anyone to teach that, but it's so British nobody actually needs to be taught)

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Obviously, an important British value is chips, the national dish.
I thought it was Chicken Tikka Masala now?
One may eat Chicken Tikka Masala with chips. In South Wales, "curry" is often eaten with "Half-n-half", rice and chips.

Okay, that is definitely one of those questionable "disgusting food combinations."

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Penny S:

quote:
anyone else stroppy I've missed.

I dunno whether you'd call most of them stroppy, but how about Mary Wollstonecraft, Elizabeth Fry, Josephine Butler and Florence Nightingale? Just off the top of my head. Oh yes, and Jenny Geddes, who must have been the all-time stool-hurling champion. I once stood on the plaque in St Giles' Cathedral and calculated the trajectory of the stool; I couldn't have hit the bishop at that distance...

British values have changed over time. I think Oscar and NEQ between them have identified the core ones. At least I hope so (somebody tell me UKIP is a temporary aberration. Please!)

Yes, at times like this we really miss Ken. [Frown]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I'd better add Elizabeth Barton - but I was going for rebellious, and I don't think most of those women were that, wonderful though they were.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Jenny Geddes certainly was! [Smile]

[ 10. June 2014, 20:50: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Having major arguments about things like whether the milk goes in first or second

In other words, a British Value is arguing about just what is a British Value....

Person 1"It is this and has always been thus"
Person 2 "Sorry, but that is not the manner in which I am accustomed"
Person 1 "Apologies, my Lord Wellington, far be it for me to imply you are not British, but...."

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Jenny Geddes certainly was!

I did say most!

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Kagools at the sea side.

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

Maybe British values are only defined by being "things upon which we have no firm convictions"?

[ 10. June 2014, 22:06: Message edited by: Bob Two-Owls ]

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Being indecisive is a British value.

Or is it?

Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on :

Piracy, slavery and drugs.

Oh sorry, I meant enterprise, empire and tea.

I've recently done the Life in the UK Test that they make all potential immigrant settlers do, and then immediately afterwards read Nial Fergerson's Empire (it was next on my pile of books) and the difference in how historical events were depicted in those two sources is quite illuminating.

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

But I hardly ever drink tea. I'm a coffeeholic......Perhaps it's because I'm Welsh....... [Big Grin]

I'm not a beer drinker either. A Proper Drink has either got to be hot or with ice. Accept nothing else! [Two face]

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

lilbuddha:

quote:
Person 1"It is this and has always been thus"
Person 2 "Sorry, but that is not the manner in which I am accustomed"
Person 1 "Apologies, my Lord Wellington, far be it for me to imply you are not British, but...."

Is this the same Lord Wellington who famously said "Publish and be damned"?

I can't imagine HIM saying sorry in those circumstances! It would be "Damn your eyes, sir, twenty years in Her Majesty's Army and you still don't know how to make a cup of tea?!"

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

Petrol in litres, distances in miles and driving on the left. The next invasion attempt is doomed.

(But will Scotland change to driving on the right after the referendum?)

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Also - we're as proud of our failures as we are of our successes. Would any other nation turn the debacle that was Dunkirk into a moment of national triumph to be remembered with pride?

Gallipoli?

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lothlorien:

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Also - we're as proud of our failures as we are of our successes. Would any other nation turn the debacle that was Dunkirk into a moment of national triumph to be remembered with pride?
Gallipoli?

True. But that's only because Australians are mostly wannabe Brits.
[Razz]

And thank heavens for the Grauniad! They have unearthed this wonderful quote from 2007:

quote:
"There is something rather unBritish about seeking to define Britishness. It's a quality which is best demonstrated through action rather than described in the abstract."

Who said that?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Michael Gove - who else?

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

Making an absolute art out of boring things.

Talking about the weather? Check. Trainspotting? What the everliving @#$% is the point of that? Doublecheck. An obsession with used bookstores? Okay, fine, I like the occasional bookshop too, got me there. Eating potatoes at every meal? Also check. Arguing about (frankly) inconsequential details of tea preparation (milk goes in last, by the way—put it in first, you add too much, put it in second, the "bloom" lets you know when to stop)? Think that one's been pointed out.

There's a certain British (or at least English) ideal of the bucolic cottage with its garden, with nothing really happening, seeing the same people at the same time, having the exact same arguments over the same things, that seems to be elevated to a level of Art. What the Japanese did for drinking tea, the British have done for the most seemingly dull and boring things ever—and yet, if you study the Art, there is, despite all appearances, an actual point to the whole exercise. It takes a while to grasp this, that the pursuit of the ordinary takes both talent and determination, but it seems shockingly obvious in retrospect.

Posted by David (# 3) on :

Losing at sport.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

I am a New Zealander but was brought up with British manners.
This childhood-long process of learning by correction, corporal punishment and repetition allowed me to cope with the situation I will now describe...

A young man (30-ish) casually exited my 85 year old mother-in-law's bedroom (where she was "resting" in bed drinking a cup of tea).
I said "Good evening. We just picked some avocado. I have left several for you on the table. Bye for now".

While I live Somewhere Else now with different "values" I would not have survived this scene without my training in politeness and it's requirement to reduce every situation to its most basic and uncontroversial elements.

Politeness can be a refuge.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Warm beer .... old ladies cycling to evensong on a summer's evening .... football with pullovers as goal posts ....

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Obviously, an important British value is chips, the national dish.
I thought it was Chicken Tikka Masala now?
One may eat Chicken Tikka Masala with chips. In South Wales, "curry" is often eaten with "Half-n-half", rice and chips.
Okay, that is definitely one of those questionable "disgusting food combinations."

You do know that by "chips" we mean what you colonials wrongly refer to as "fries", don't you?

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Warm beer

No. This cannot be passed over. Traditional British Ales are not (or should not be) served warm. They are served at cellar temperature, which would be around 12-14C. Well below room temperature, just not too cold to actually taste them. As a general rule, beers that are served ice cold are so served because you wouldn't want to taste them. (Bud, I'm looking at you!)

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Petrol in litres, distances in miles...

I think it very British to measure in metric and then convert to imperial mentally. Almost everyone I know puts litres in their car but bitches about the price per gallon. They always ask me how far a 10km hike is in miles. I always work out grams into pounds and ounces or if in the sweet shop, a hundred grams is always referred to as a quarter of jelly babies.

I thought this might pass with the next generations but my scouts still carry on the tradition of bimetricality and most of them were born in the C21st.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Karl, you do realise that you just proved Ariston's point about elevating obsessive attention to boring things to an art form, don't you? [Two face]

(Being female, I am not required to like beer).

[ 11. June 2014, 08:18: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Karl, you do realise that you just proved Ariston's point about elevating obsessive attention to boring things to an art form, don't you?

I've always put that down to ASD tendencies rather than being British.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Petrol in litres, distances in miles...
I think it very British to measure in metric and then convert to imperial mentally. Almost everyone I know puts litres in their car but bitches about the price per gallon. They always ask me how far a 10km hike is in miles. I always work out grams into pounds and ounces or if in the sweet shop, a hundred grams is always referred to as a quarter of jelly babies.

I thought this might pass with the next generations but my scouts still carry on the tradition of bimetricality and most of them were born in the C21st.

Yes. As in "According to the OS map Scafell Pike is 910 meters - that's 3,210'", or "map shows it's 7 kilometers to the camp site - that's about 4 miles."

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Well, thanks to the "Metric Martyrs" and their ilk there are generations of people who were *taught* the metric system at school but grew up in an environment where everyone else used imperial measures, with the result that we don't actually have a proper sense of how big or heavy something is until we convert to imperial. I am 1.67 metres tall, but that means nothing to me until I convert it to feet and inches.

[ 11. June 2014, 09:12: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :

On units, we tend to use Centigrade when it is cold: "Minus 5, brrrrr!" and Fahrenheit when it is hot "80 degrees, phew what a scorcher!"

Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Petrol in litres, distances in miles...
I think it very British to measure in metric and then convert to imperial mentally. Almost everyone I know puts litres in their car but bitches about the price per gallon. They always ask me how far a 10km hike is in miles. I always work out grams into pounds and ounces or if in the sweet shop, a hundred grams is always referred to as a quarter of jelly babies.

I thought this might pass with the next generations but my scouts still carry on the tradition of bimetricality and most of them were born in the C21st.
Yes. As in "According to the OS map Scafell Pike is 910 meters - that's 3,210'", or "map shows it's 7 kilometers to the camp site - that's about 4 miles."

Weights are another funny area. I always think of weight in terms of stone. If someone gives a weight in pounds, I'm always trying to work it out by trying to divide by 14 and 16, sure that it's one or the other but unsure as to which one.

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

quote:
Originally posted by David:
Losing at sport.

Except forms of sport which involve sitting down, or which nobody watches until we get a medal (what was the snowboarding thing again?)

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Obviously, an important British value is chips, the national dish.
I thought it was Chicken Tikka Masala now?
One may eat Chicken Tikka Masala with chips. In South Wales, "curry" is often eaten with "Half-n-half", rice and chips.
Okay, that is definitely one of those questionable "disgusting food combinations."
You do know that by "chips" we mean what you colonials wrongly refer to as "fries", don't you?

Yes, of course. I have spent significant time in London. Malt vinegar, yes; curry... no.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Obviously, an important British value is chips, the national dish.
I thought it was Chicken Tikka Masala now?
One may eat Chicken Tikka Masala with chips. In South Wales, "curry" is often eaten with "Half-n-half", rice and chips.
Okay, that is definitely one of those questionable "disgusting food combinations."
You do know that by "chips" we mean what you colonials wrongly refer to as "fries", don't you?
Yes, of course. I have spent significant time in London. Malt vinegar, yes; curry... no.

This is so, so, wrong. The finest accompaniment to chips is yellow chip-shop curry sauce; around these parts gravy is favoured, but I'm a mushy pea and curry sauce man. It is from there a short hop to curry with chips.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:

quote:
Originally posted by David:
Losing at sport.
Except forms of sport which involve sitting down, or which nobody watches until we get a medal (what was the snowboarding thing again?)

It's not so much losing at sport that is distinctively British; there are I don't know how many teams in the World Cup, but only one will win; every other country will also lose along with Ingerland. The British factor is naively believing that we will win and at the same time knowing we won't - "this tims, lads, this time. And when we reach the final, not if, when..." ad nauseam. So we, or rather the people who give a pair of dingoes' kidneys about this stuff, go on and on about who the key man is, or who's going to be the biggest barrier to getting through to the Wimbledon (please God bear me through this oncoming trial) final, always with the promise that he/she/they might actually do it, knowing at the same time that they won't.

And in the case of football, it's the mistaken belief that everybody else cares about it as much as you do...

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
<snip> Yes, of course. I have spent significant time in London. Malt vinegar, yes; curry... no.

You do realise that London is as typically British as Disneyworld is typically American?

Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Karl, you do realise that you just proved Ariston's point about elevating obsessive attention to boring things to an art form, don't you?
I've always put that down to ASD tendencies rather than being British.

Same thing, isn't it? [Two face]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
<snip> Yes, of course. I have spent significant time in London. Malt vinegar, yes; curry... no.
You do realise that London is as typically British as Disneyworld is typically American?

Indeed. They traditionally eat jellied eels there, which most of the rest of the country considers [Projectile]

Posted by burlingtontiger (# 18069) on :

The Pastor and one of the elders at our church are particularly irritated by the use of British values by which they infer Christian values. I am not so sure; the secular values of equal rights for all regardless of race/nationality, gender, sexuality and belief are probably closer to the mark. Of course, as a nation, we rarely live up to these ideals but they are aspirations which most people would say we should aim for, even though we so often fall badly short of the mark.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by David:
Losing at sport.

No matches lost since the war.
You, sir, are a knocker.

Posted by The Rhythm Methodist (# 17064) on :

I think this more or less sums up British (or at least, English) values for me.

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
<snip> Yes, of course. I have spent significant time in London. Malt vinegar, yes; curry... no.
You do realise that London is as typically British as Disneyworld is typically American?

You mean Disney World is not an accurate microcosm of the U.S.?

I traveled outside London as well. I was not impressed.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

GCabot:

quote:
I traveled outside London as well. I was not impressed.

In that case I'll take the next arduous flight you have to make to England for you.

No, really, I insist.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Karl, you do realise that you just proved Ariston's point about elevating obsessive attention to boring things to an art form, don't you?
I've always put that down to ASD tendencies rather than being British.

Then this is minutiae about alcoholic beverage, something that Ariston has demonstrated quite an ability to post himself.

As to trainspotting, well it is not my fetish, but I put it down as the stamp collecting form of public transport fanaticism. There are others, the public transport history-nerd, the transport steam punk person and the train travel geography geek whose real interest is taking interesting journeys.

Jengie

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

Tomato sauce, and it needs to be a particular well-known brand, is the best with chips. As it is also with a hot bacon roll eaten in the open air on the way to work.

Chips with tomato sauce out of a paper packet evoke memories of autumn evenings at fairgrounds, with bright lights flashing, loud music pounding, lots of glitter and all the excitement of the fair, as you briefly attempt to spear your chip with a stupid little wooden fork before just picking it up and eating it. They remind me also of strolls along the seafront, with the sea breeze active in your hair, and large fat seagulls perched nearby eyeing the packet up as you dip your fingers in and wince slightly at the heat.

Chips are also that impulse buy at the railway station when you have less than 10 minutes left to get your train, and guarantee you a seat by yourself for the duration of the journey, as you lick the salt and tomato sauce off your fingers. They are also that other impulse buy on a bitter winter's night as you head home, tired and hungry, with the stars burning holes in a dark sky and the cold air tingling your skin, but with a greasy, hot, redolent packet of chips clutched firmly to your chest and keeping your hands warm; no cooking tonight and a hot meal when you get in.

No, there's nothing like the true British tradition of chips, preferably with tomato sauce, and either a piece of fish in batter or a sausage to go with it; who could ask for more.

Posted by chive (# 208) on :

Swearing. Brits are remarkably good at swearing. They also seem to tolerate it more than other cultures I've come across. (Although I have to bow to the late, great swearer that was Erin).

And here I've written a post about swearing with nary a naughty word.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

You mean your chippie supplies branded tomato sauce? And not in those teeny tiny sachets which provide enough sauce for a couple of chips? And do beware of non-brewed condiment aka acetic acid not derived from the fermentation of malt. Visitors to the UK would be better off buying their own vinegar and applying it themselves outside the shop.

And if you know your teacup, and your leaf tea, and your teapot, you know how much milk to put in first.

You do realise that these petty arguments are the way the giant lizards keep us from noticing what is really going on, don't you?

Or at least the boarding school educated men with unresolved problems with the breaking of attachment with place and parents too early.

Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Tomato sauce, and it needs to be a particular well-known brand, is the best with chips. As it is also with a hot bacon roll eaten in the open air on the way to work. .

Tomato ketchup is only suitable for children. I admit to a strange fondness for mayonnaise on chips, an unfortunate result of time in Brussels, but otherwise it's malt vinegar or chip-shop curry sauce (tasting like no known curry in the universe) on the way home from a night in the pub...

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Tomato ketchup is rich in lycopenes, which are good for you.

Must admit to tartare sauce, usually, and sometimes that well known manufacturers salad cream - haven't tried mayonnaise.

Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
Tomato ketchup is only suitable for children.

Children of all ages, that is. It would be a sad day if anyone declared themselves to be 'too old for ketchup'.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Blech - I hate ketchup. Revoltingly sweet. I like mayo, tartar sauce or Belgian style frite sauces with my chips, or gravy. Chips are tasty with curry though.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

Actually, I'm partial to lemon on my fish and chips. A lot of it.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

GCabot:

quote:
I traveled outside London as well. I was not impressed.

You went to Slough and Milton Keynes, didn't you. Someone should have warned you.

You obviously didn't visit Bath, Winchester, York, Norwich (well that one is a bit out on a limb) or any part of Hadrian's Wall.

(note for any other American shipmates contemplating a visit: Stratford-on-Avon is a giant car park attached to the tackiest tourist trap this side of the Atlantic. Go to Warwick Castle instead if you're in that area, it's much more interesting; or if you want to see Shakesperean theatre in something approaching its original setting, go to the Globe ).

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Or, if you are in that direction, try the new tarted up Dover Castle and, referring to your copy of Thomas Malory, ask them why they haven't re-instated Gawaine's head, which they were showing to tourists in his day. (This is something I've wanted to do since I lived down the hill, but never had the chutzpah to do.)

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Then this is minutiae about alcoholic beverage, something that Ariston has demonstrated quite an ability to post himself.

Where d'ya think I learned it? Here in the States, where making a to do about beer serving temperature is a sign to turn around and walk out (your bar's too precious for words; a good one just does it); where decanting everyday red wine, or at least giving it 15 minutes to breathe after opening, gets you funny looks; and malt whisky is something reserved for the lawyers and bankers, rather than on the speed dispenser on the back wall; and nobody but nobody (well, almost nobody) knows what sherry or port are?

Didn't think so.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

quote:
Originally posted by David:
Losing at sport.

I was not born in Britain, but I am a Spurs supporter. I understand that!

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

Weights are another funny area. I always think of weight in terms of stone. If someone gives a weight in pounds, I'm always trying to work it out by trying to divide by 14 and 16, sure that it's one or the other but unsure as to which one.

I am a wee bit less than 14 stone and I am five foot ten inches tall!

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
(note for any other American shipmates contemplating a visit: Stratford-on-Avon is a giant car park attached to the tackiest tourist trap this side of the Atlantic. Go to Warwick Castle instead if you're in that area, it's much more interesting

Ah, another "I went to Stratford on Avon once on a day trip and didn't like it" poster.

I'm often in Stratford. It has its tourist traps – although I actually like the Shakespearean properties - but it also has quirky, less obvious charms. The pleasing little inscriptions on some of the pavements, the memorials to actors in various places along the waterfront, and the collection of sometimes idiosyncratic lampposts donated by towns and other countries, dotted throughout the town; the museum of mechanical art and design (with interactive exhibits), the Creaky Cauldron, where you can buy your pagan spells in a bag; lots of tiny antiques shops, and the all-year-round Christmas shop; one of the country's best tea-shops with an amazing range of cakes, and Paxton & Whitfield for interesting, redolent cheeses; good places to have lunch; a really good farmers' market and arts & crafts market at the weekend; the boat trips up the Avon in a boat that's a century old and still in excellent condition; the pleasure of spotting famous actors on the street or in the supermarket, and more. The place is usually full of life and the people are friendly.

Warwick Castle, on the other hand, is a total theme park that costs you £30.60 just to get in. The town itself is more interesting with some hidden gems; I'd recommend not bothering with the Castle.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

I think we'll have to agree to differ... but I've been to both Warwick and Stratford more than once. My opinion of Warwick Castle may be skewed by the fact that it didn't cost me anything (I just flashed my Historic Scotland card at them and they let me in free of charge).

[ 12. June 2014, 08:14: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Then this is minutiae about alcoholic beverage, something that Ariston has demonstrated quite an ability to post himself.
Where d'ya think I learned it? Here in the States, where making a to do about beer serving temperature is a sign to turn around and walk out (your bar's too precious for words; a good one just does it); where decanting everyday red wine, or at least giving it 15 minutes to breathe after opening, gets you funny looks; and malt whisky is something reserved for the lawyers and bankers, rather than on the speed dispenser on the back wall; and nobody but nobody (well, almost nobody) knows what sherry or port are?

Didn't think so.

My whole point was such information is not boring to you, regardless of where you got.

Jengie

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Minutiae? Minutiae? The difference between 8C and 12C is the difference between a crap pint and a classic one.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Most people would agree that four degrees Celsius is a non-trivial difference in temperature.

The question is how much of a fuss you make about it, and on the whole it is considered very un-British to cause a scene and insist on having your pint heated to the right temperature. Far better to take one sip, make a face and then put the glass down at your elbow, muttering imprecations (just loud enough for the bar staff to hear, but not loud enough that they can assume the remarks are directly addressed to them), wait until it's warmed up to an acceptable temperature before finishing your drink, and never darken the doors of that bar again.

[ 12. June 2014, 10:44: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Well yes. And if it's styled a "bar" rather than a "pub", the chances of a crap pint are that much higher.

Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Most people would agree that four degrees Celsius is a non-trivial difference in temperature.

Oh no. 4 degrees is the difference between a pleasantly warm 18 degrees spring day and an unbearably sweltering 22 degrees.

The former is [Cool]

The latter is as hot as [Devil]

Posted by Curious Kitten (# 11953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Most people would agree that four degrees Celsius is a non-trivial difference in temperature.
Oh no. 4 degrees is the difference between a pleasantly warm 18 degrees spring day and an unbearably sweltering 22 degrees.

The former is
The latter is as hot as

Since when is 18 degrees C warm? Or 22 degrees anything other than pleasantly chill?

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

YMMV. 64° (18 Centigrade) is still jacket and pullover weather; 71° (22 in metric) is more bearable, and when you can leave either the jacket or the pullover off but may need to keep one handy if a breeze springs up.

It doesn't really get very warm in this country very often - summers are usually just on the chilly side.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curious Kitten:

quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Most people would agree that four degrees Celsius is a non-trivial difference in temperature.
Oh no. 4 degrees is the difference between a pleasantly warm 18 degrees spring day and an unbearably sweltering 22 degrees.

The former is
The latter is as hot as
Since when is 18 degrees C warm? Or 22 degrees anything other than pleasantly chill?

I'm with the Alethiophile. Above 24C the problem is one can no longer remove further items of clothing and remain unarrested, and one is still too damned hot. 16C-20C is comfortable.

I have never understood why people, in the middle of summer when it's already too hot here, go to places that are even hotter.

[ 12. June 2014, 13:27: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

It depends entirely on what you are used to. As a child I lived in North Africa for two years. The average daytime high temperature for the hottest six months of the year was into the high 80s and we had many days over 100F. You get to recognise a day when body temperature is cooler than air temperature and it isn't nice.

I can't handle that kind of heat so easily now, but I don't find the British weather, with occasional days over 85F and just the one memorable day of 100F too bad. The Mediterranean is hotter but a sea breeze makes anywhere better than a summer day in London, which is like an oven, except that it smells much worse.

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Saying sorry when it isn't your fault e.g. when someone bumps into you.

Not at all, dear boy. That's Canadian. [Devil]

I'd go with fairness, politeness, slight reticence, a healthy appreciation of tradition and support for the underdog.

And tea, obviously. [Smile]

eta: I'm with the Alethiophile:

quote:
... 4 degrees is the difference between a pleasantly warm 18 degrees spring day and an unbearably sweltering 22 degrees.

[ 12. June 2014, 14:44: Message edited by: piglet ]

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

Apologies for double-post, but I just saw this and had to reply:

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
But will Scotland change to driving on the right after the referendum?

If that idiot Salmond has his way they'll probably do it in stages: lorries, buses and commercial vehicles first.

[Snigger]

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

The Alethiophile:

quote:
Oh no. 4 degrees is the difference between a pleasantly warm 18 degrees spring day and an unbearably sweltering 22 degrees.

I think you may have misinterpreted my original statement.

Here it is again:

Most people would agree that four degrees Celsius is a non- trivial difference in temperature.

Non-trivial = the opposite of trivial.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

British values re food are summed up by complaining about having to eat 'foreign muck' whilst 'abroad' but insisting on tucking into a chicken tikka masala (Bangladeshi-Scottish), spag bol (Anglo-Italian), shepherd's pie (Russian) or fish'n'chips (Jewish) when at home...

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
Apologies for double-post, but I just saw this and had to reply:

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
But will Scotland change to driving on the right after the referendum?
If that idiot Salmond has his way they'll probably do it in stages: lorries, buses and commercial vehicles first.

They've made a start with the Embra trams.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

British = euphemism to avoid 'unpleasantness':

For example, shoplifting = theft; joyriding = aggravated car theft.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

A few British values from an American's viewpoint.

Putting milk in tea at all. Fussing about when to do it.

Self-deprecation, or as I like to call it "Hugh Grant."

Saying "whinge," instead of whine.

Not whinging. The greater the disaster, the more points for not whinging.

Disdain for people who whinge.

"Keeping oneself to oneself." Said with admiration by fellow British when an American might say, "What the hell's the matter with him?" It's the opposite of "Very friendly," one of the highest American virtues, which might be described by the British as, "Pushing in."

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

Oh yes. Being pushy is so very wrong. Keep a certain distance; only get involved if absolutely necessary and there is no-one else. It goes like this:

"Errrr. Excuse me. I'm terribly sorry to intrude but I couldn't help noticing that you've just been run over by a bus. If you would like - and as long as I am not interfering - I could possibly call for an ambulance. And whilst we are waiting, would you like me to get your legs back from over there. I am sure the doctors will be able to do something with them."

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I was struck by the reticence to speak to strangers when I was visiting England and staying in a country hotel. We were all sitting in the hotel lounge after dinner and there was a deathly silence. I broke the ice by engaging people in conversation and we all had a pleasant evening. However, my British companion said later that I had been very brave as British do not normally speak to strangers.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

That sort of depends on where in Britian you are.

Posted by Frankenstein (# 16198) on :

Warm beer!

"British Values", a useful political phrase to use, it gets us all nodding our heads in agreement, but is meaningless.
The French, the Germans, the Dutch etcetera have no values at all, how silly of me..

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I was struck by the reticence to speak to strangers when I was visiting England and staying in a country hotel. We were all sitting in the hotel lounge after dinner and there was a deathly silence. I broke the ice by engaging people in conversation and we all had a pleasant evening. However, my British companion said later that I had been very brave as British do not normally speak to strangers.

Regional differences. If you get on a bus in many parts of the UK, you will know more than you ever wanted to about the medical history of the elderly lady next to you by the time you get off!

I've lived in London for 20 years but still speak to strangers on the Tube - mostly to tourists looking for Lee-sester Square.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

Years ago I walked into a tea shop in Glastonbury alone and a middle-aged woman already there by herself invited me to join her, and she was very chatty - told me all about her son finding a girlfriend who didn't seem to mind that he had a withered arm.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
Warm beer!

Utter rubbish!!! We do NOT drink warm beer. Decent beer should be served at cellar temperature. Just because we don't chill it to the extent that it's like drinking an ice lolly, doesn't make it warm.

OTOH, I can see the point of chilling lager or crap beers such as John Smiths. If you served that at cellar temperature, you'd actually have to taste the stuff [Projectile]

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Some reticence with strangers would be greatly appreciated in some parts of the UK. I'm not sure about country hotels, not frequenting them, but some pubs are anything but reticent. I do remember in some B & Bs, that at breakfast there would be a sepulchral silence, but then at others, you couldn't hear yourself think.

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
"British Values", a useful political phrase to use, it gets us all nodding our heads in agreement, but is meaningless.
The French, the Germans, the Dutch etcetera have no values at all, how silly of me..

Why would the existence of British values, or even just someone believing in a mythical set of British values preclude French values etc? Also, it is only meaningless if we choose to make it so. Others choose to make their value sets very well defined, such as the Catholic Church, The WI or North Korea but this tends to make them exclusionary. Our woolly British Values could be made more meaningful but then a lot of people would find themselves at odds with them, while they are nebulous but sort-of-defined by consensus they are more or less inclusive.

Posted by Frankenstein (# 16198) on :

Spike:quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
Warm beer!
Utter rubbish!!! We do NOT drink warm beer. Decent beer should be served at cellar temperature. Just because we don't chill it to the extent that it's like drinking an ice lolly, doesn't make it warm.

This, as you appear not to have recognised, was sarcasm!

This is the way some people see us!

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I was struck by the reticence to speak to strangers when I was visiting England and staying in a country hotel. We were all sitting in the hotel lounge after dinner and there was a deathly silence. I broke the ice by engaging people in conversation and we all had a pleasant evening. However, my British companion said later that I had been very brave as British do not normally speak to strangers.
Regional differences. If you get on a bus in many parts of the UK, you will know more than you ever wanted to about the medical history of the elderly lady next to you by the time you get off!

I've lived in London for 20 years but still speak to strangers on the Tube - mostly to tourists looking for Lee-sester Square.

Yes, I appear to have the word 'nurse' stamped across my forehead and old ladies always chat to me. Mind you, I am as bad, I'll strike up conversations anywhere. This, to me, has been the same in my working class home town of Luton, the metropolitan central London where I spent my 20s and here now in the rather more sedate Cambrideshire. Perhaps the clientele of country hotels are more reserved?
When I think about British values I think of things like afternoon tea in the garden, good manners, justice and fair play. I think of the self-deprecation of our comedy and the use of satire. I'm off this afternoon to a Tudor re-enactment for a week and will ponder more this question of Britishness in that context.
BTW, the leader of the Tolpuddle Martyrs, George Loveless, was my great great great Grandfather [Smile]

Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
A few British values from an American's viewpoint....

"Keeping oneself to oneself." Said with admiration by fellow British when an American might say, "What the hell's the matter with him?" It's the opposite of "Very friendly," one of the highest American virtues, which might be described by the British as, "Pushing in."

I've come across some particularly overbearing Americans at times who, in the name of being "friendly" are simply insensitive to others, particularly introverts (of which I am one).

For example, I can think of a person who I had known to 2 years before she ever let me finish a sentence. Though interestingly 'Introverts in the church' was written by an American.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

What is the history of shepherd's pie, then? I've seen recipes, using left over roast, either beef or sheepmeat, and left over potato, from Victorian books. That seems a bit early for a low status recipe to arrive from Russia. (Leaving aside the arrival of the Russian style of upper class dinner serving.)

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

Shepherd's pie as a child was always made on a Tuesday with the leftovers from Sunday's roast beef. Mum had a gift for making the best of limited resources.

If we didn't have beef, we didn't have Shepherd's pie.

Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Shepherd's pie as a child was always made on a Tuesday with the leftovers from Sunday's roast beef. Mum had a gift for making the best of limited resources.

If we didn't have beef, we didn't have Shepherd's pie.

Then you never had shepherd's pie, which is a lamb dish. You had cottage pie.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Not true. According to Mrs Beeton, and the writer of a Scottish recipe book I have (Mrs E W Kirk, Tried Favourites Cookery Book), back in the day, it was made with whichever of the meats was available (in Mrs Kirk's case, just unspecified meat). My mother's version, and so her mother's version, cooked on a farm, was with whatever red meat was a left over - on Tuesday. Cold meat on Monday, because of the washing.
I never saw the shepherd's/cottage split until I saw the packaged versions in shops. The school shepherd's pie was beef mince.
I do remember my mother telling me, as we made one, that if the leftover potatoes were waxy, you sliced them and arranged them like tiles on the meat, thus making a cottage pie. She may have been joking when comparing the roughed up mash to a shepherd's hair.
Shepherds, BTW, did not own the stock they cared for. They may have been given a surplus lamb occasionally, I suppose. And the tails. And the mini prairie oysters.
Unfortunately, I never got to have the discussion with Dad's part of the family, and his shepherd grandfather, and his own father were long dead by my time, anyway.

I suspect that there have been variants of naming in various parts of the country, which have been taken up and formalised in the interest in marketing. As far as I am concerned, when I make a shepherd's pie, it's what I make, traditionally.

Like putting the tea and milk in whichever order. (But I do have references for my position!)

But what about this Russian origin, then?

[ 13. June 2014, 13:29: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

British values - insisting on being right.

Further references.
Good Housekeeping Cookery Book 1944. Minced cold meat, unspecified.
Traditional British Cooking 1997. This one surprised me - I was looking for a more modern control version. Raw chuck steak, minced, veal stock, all sorts of other stuff in the veggie line, mushrooms, tomato puree, tarragon - presumably Jeffrey Archer's version. Anyway, not sheepmeat.

And none of these books had any recipe for cottage pie at all.

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
... Then you never had shepherd's pie, which is a lamb dish. You had cottage pie.

My Better Half makes the best "shepherd's" pie (his name for it) I've ever tasted; although as it's usually made from scratch with minced beef, technically it's "cottage pie".

He also occasionally makes it with moose, which is also delicious; as I've never seen anyone trying to herd a moose I'm not sure what the technical term would be ... [Big Grin]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by piglet:

He also occasionally makes it with moose, which is also delicious; as I've never seen anyone trying to herd a moose I'm not sure what the technical term would be ...

Well, given the method of most human-caused moose deaths;
Trucker's pie?

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

To repeat, historically, a shepherds' pie made with any meat is a shepherds' pie.

Werther's Originals were not sold in the UK in the time of children's grandparents. There were the lost Callard and Bowsers butterscotch sweets, though.

Maynards had some fantasy about eating a type of sweet at Saturday morning films when it hadn't been developed until some time after that sort of showing had been abandoned.

Manufacturers rewrite history.

Wikipedia on the subject

Interestingly, the term "cottage pie" is older than "shepherds' pie" - it interests me, anyway. The significant parts of the article are that the names have been used interchangeably, and that this was regardless of the meat used. They refer to folk etymology, not usually regarded as academically sound.

So maybe the manufacturers are innocent. But still wrong.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:

Or at least the boarding school educated men with unresolved problems with the breaking of attachment with place and parents too early.

Excuse me? I resemble that remark!

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:

Or at least the boarding school educated men with unresolved problems with the breaking of attachment with place and parents too early.
Excuse me? I resemble that remark!

I don't think Penny S suggested that *all* boarding school educated men have "detachment disorders". Some do, some don't, test on Friday. Whoops, that's today!

Posted by Kyzyl (# 374) on :

quote:
Originally posted by David:
Losing at sport.

Getting your hopes up very four years to regain the glory of the game you invented only to have them dashed?

(She writes while watching Mexico versus Cameroon)

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

quote:
Trucker's pie.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I was told that Cottage Pie was so-called because it was light on meat and heavy on vegetables - in other words, as one might get in a cottage as against a more grand establishment.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

That would fit with the Wikipedia account. Which also refers to St Stephen's Pie (left over turkey and ham), and Cumberland Pie, finished with breadcrumbs. That seems, in supermarket terminology, to be the current veg enriched one. The article also includes the wonderful sentence that there is a similar dish with fish, which is called a fish pie. Who would have thought it?

Meanwhile, I am going, when the weather is cooler, to make a version M&S had for a while, with minted lamb beneath, and mashed peas in the mash.I think they called it "Minted Lamb topped with Pea Mash" or something similarly unimaginative. It was part of a range of innovative potato topped pies. Can't remember the others, apart from the usual suspects. I wonder if it's worth trying a pork version, perhaps with apple involved.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

The bistro at the BG has just introduced its winter menu - incuding lamb pie with stout. Magnificent.

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
GCabot:
quote:
I traveled outside London as well. I was not impressed.
You went to Slough and Milton Keynes, didn't you. Someone should have warned you.

You obviously didn't visit Bath, Winchester, York, Norwich (well that one is a bit out on a limb) or any part of Hadrian's Wall.

(note for any other American shipmates contemplating a visit: Stratford-on-Avon is a giant car park attached to the tackiest tourist trap this side of the Atlantic. Go to Warwick Castle instead if you're in that area, it's much more interesting; or if you want to see Shakesperean theatre in something approaching its original setting, go to the Globe ).

Oh, I did not necessarily mean the places themselves. Britian is a cultural treasure trove. I met far too many people, however, that were shockingly rude and uncultured - basically, the opposite of every foreigner's general stereotype of the British, except for an obnoxiously entitled attitude. It was very off-putting.

Also, I could not/barely understand most people when they spoke with an accent outside of RP.

Posted by crunt (# 1321) on :

quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:

Also, I could not/barely understand most people when they spoke with an accent outside of RP. [/QB]

Really? Were you stuck in a stately home for your entire visit?

Estimates of the number of RP speakers in the UK vary between 2-4% Maybe you're thinking of 'Estuary English'. RP is definitely NOT a form of standard English and is rarely heard these days. Even the BBC has stopped using RP - decades ago.

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

Going back to sauce for moment - Tomato sauce [or ketchup or catsup] is sort of global - the true British sauce is Brown Sauce! The whole thing about Brown Sauce reaches its ultimate pinnacle of achievement in the wonder that is Branston Pickle™ - what a creation! Brits abroad hanker after its delights - cheese and pickle; omelette and pickle; fish, chips and mushy peas - and pickle! No British mealtime is complete without it!

A decade or so ago a friend and I were in a rather nice Indian restaurant on Merseyside and the people in the booth behind us were served with their meal as we were still studying the menu and, as the waiters left, they were followed by the cry, in broad Scouse:

"Eh, mate, you got any brown sauce?"

True Brits!

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by crunt:

quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:

Also, I could not/barely understand most people when they spoke with an accent outside of RP.
Really? Were you stuck in a stately home for your entire visit?

Estimates of the number of RP speakers in the UK vary between 2-4% Maybe you're thinking of 'Estuary English'. RP is definitely NOT a form of standard English and is rarely heard these days. Even the BBC has stopped using RP - decades ago. [/QB]

Obviously, I was slightly exaggerating, but I definitely had varying degrees of difficulty understanding others depending on the severity of their deviation, and some accents I truly could not decipher.

And no, I was not referring to Estuay English.

[ 15. June 2014, 07:57: Message edited by: GCabot ]

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

I do remember becoming incredibly irritated by American tourists although not so much now.

It must have been the early 80s when it felt as if every tourist in the West End (of London) was large, wearing a Hawaii shirt and eating, plus accosting anyone who looked as if they knew where they were going (so in a hurry) with demands for directions that needed long explanations because they were under a number of misapprehensions. I'm afraid if said tourists were rude and asking for the Albert and Victoria museum they got misdirected. It's the Victoria and Albert museum and there was often an assumption that I had nothing better to do with my time than serve tourists, and when it was the third person to accost me in a short stretch of pavement, I wasn't too impressed.

Other times, when I was subjected to a diatribe as to why they couldn't get proper Coca-Cola or Grahams crackers, which happened surprisingly frequently for one summer waitressing job, I was quite prepared to revert to incomprehensible Dorset dialect and burr. It isn't the waitress's fault that the product Coca-Cola supplies in England is not the same as in the USA, and digestive biscuits are just the nearest approximation to Grahams crackers, really.

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I do remember becoming incredibly irritated by American tourists although not so much now.

It must have been the early 80s when it felt as if every tourist in the West End (of London) was large, wearing a Hawaii shirt and eating, plus accosting anyone who looked as if they knew where they were going (so in a hurry) with demands for directions that needed long explanations because they were under a number of misapprehensions. I'm afraid if said tourists were rude and asking for the Albert and Victoria museum they got misdirected. It's the Victoria and Albert museum and there was often an assumption that I had nothing better to do with my time than serve tourists, and when it was the third person to accost me in a short stretch of pavement, I wasn't too impressed.

Other times, when I was subjected to a diatribe as to why they couldn't get proper Coca-Cola or Grahams crackers, which happened surprisingly frequently for one summer waitressing job, I was quite prepared to revert to incomprehensible Dorset dialect and burr. It isn't the waitress's fault that the product Coca-Cola supplies in England is not the same as in the USA, and digestive biscuits are just the nearest approximation to Grahams crackers, really.

If you are implying that the behavior I experienced was a reaction to my own misbehavior, you are mistaken. Perhaps, however, they were reacting to the mere fact that I was American, and thus subjected me to uninformed stereotypes, as you have just done. That would certainly explain why you have provided another example of the uncivil behavior I was referring to.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

GCabot and Curiosity Killed, please do not pursue this tangent any further. Let's keep this thread light and fun. If you want to sort it out with each other, Hell is that way --->

Thanks
Ariel
Heaven Host

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

There are people in the UK who find certain accents in the UK tricky. We had a school caretaker from Glasgow, lovely man, but he would at times retreat into thoroughly incomprehensible dialect for some reason.

There was a programme on the BBC on the subject, and they interviewed a lady from an upper stratum of society who complained that she couldn't understand a particular female news presenter. This presenter has a mild Edinburgh accent, rather attractive, I thought, and she did not use any dialect words. I felt that the complainant had probably been confined in her experience to others who spoke as she did, and lost the ability to pick up variant sounds. She then thought it was incumbent on others to fit her expectations.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

It has a lot to do with exposure I expect. In South Africa, a black security guard working in the tourist-dense waterfront area not only understood what I said but could accurately place my accent. Whereas a white woman I spoke to at a wine estate near Stellenbosch could not comprehend 'It's a nice day for photography' even on repeated hearing.

There are certain variants of both North American and British accents which are globalised - included sanitised (or bastardised according to your POV) regional accents. But I am not sure how many people actually speak like that.

Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on :

quote:
Originally posted by crunt:
RP is definitely NOT a form of standard English and is rarely heard these days. Even the BBC has stopped using RP - decades ago.

I love hearing RP, it's like stepping into a time machine. I have an American friend (lives in London) who is an actor and he is going to take a course on speaking RP - apparently once you've got that it's easier to then overlay other accents on top of it.

Posted by crunt (# 1321) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:

quote:
Originally posted by crunt:
RP is definitely NOT a form of standard English and is rarely heard these days. Even the BBC has stopped using RP - decades ago.
I love hearing RP, it's like stepping into a time machine. I have an American friend (lives in London) who is an actor and he is going to take a course on speaking RP - apparently once you've got that it's easier to then overlay other accents on top of it.

I don't dislike RP, in fact I think it is rather nice, but then so are all the other British accents; I can't say I dislike any particular regional or class accent, British or otherwise. I grew up in S. E. Wales, and a lot of Brummies moved into the area over the years. It was very easy for sing-songy Welsh people to dislike the the flat Birmingham drone (or so it seemed to our ears), but after many years of living in my mother's homeland of New Zealand it was a real thrill to hear a midlands accent again; it felt like 'home' oddly enough.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm not sure about country hotels, not frequenting them, but some pubs are anything but reticent. I do remember in some B & Bs, that at breakfast there would be a sepulchral silence....

We stayed in a lovely hotel across the street from the train station in Penzance. The owner served us a full English breakfast himself and we spoke to him a bit. I don't remember speaking to other guests or other members of staff until we had trouble figuring out how to use the telephone!

Posted by Waw consecutivum (# 18120) on :

Talking about the weather, and queuing

Posted by burlingtontiger (# 18069) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I was struck by the reticence to speak to strangers when I was visiting England and staying in a country hotel. We were all sitting in the hotel lounge after dinner and there was a deathly silence. I broke the ice by engaging people in conversation and we all had a pleasant evening. However, my British companion said later that I had been very brave as British do not normally speak to strangers.

[Shudders at the thought]. I seem to attract strangers who want to talk. I'm sure that you are very nice but the ones who want to enter into conversation with me are always garrulous and either i) nosey or ii) intent on telling about every aspect of their personal life.

Quick observations about the weather or how busy/quiet a place is are perfectly welcome.

(You know, reading this back, doesn't put me a good light).

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

For many years I had a pen-pal who lived at the time in Burton-on-Trent. After finishing my masters degree I went to visit her and her husband one summer (we're talking 1969).

One of the things we did was drive to Coventry and to Stratford-on-Avon. On the way home we were looking for a place to stop for tea. We finally found a place that looked like a tea shop, but we weren't sure -- it could have been a private home. At any rate, we went in and found ourselves in a room with tables but no people. We sat down.

After a few minutes a woman came into the room and looked rather surprised to see us there. We told her that we'd like some tea. She disappeared for the longest time, but finally re-emerged with a pot of tea and a plate of sandwiches.

I had read in a tourist guide book that the English would never be inhospitable to a stranger. To this day we aren't sure if we were actually in a tea shop or a private home.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Was there a bill?

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

Yes, but I don't recall if it was a proper restaurant check or a handwritten tally on nice writing paper.

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
Brits abroad hanker after its delights - cheese and pickle; omelette and pickle; fish, chips and mushy peas - and pickle! No British mealtime is complete without it!

I think this could be quite a good test of British values - what do British expats miss the most (or what do we always make sure we make the most of when we go back to the UK to visit)?

Around here, the list seems to be something like:

- tea
- Marmite
- orange marmelade
- chocolate digestive biscuits
- the BBC
- her Majesty the Queen
- fish and chips

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
What is the history of shepherd's pie, then? I've seen recipes, using left over roast, either beef or sheepmeat, and left over potato, from Victorian books. That seems a bit early for a low status recipe to arrive from Russia. (Leaving aside the arrival of the Russian style of upper class dinner serving.)

My first (Russian) wife was convinced it was a Russian recipe that we Brits had nicked, only they called it something like 'potato-topped pie' and made it with beef or lamb chunks rather than mince.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I did see something about a Russian version online. I suspect it's probably a case of parallel evolution. Leftover meat and potatoes - limited range. Cakes like fishcakes. Potato dough pirogi. Pasties. The pie is the easiest and quickest I should think.

Under the name of cottage pie, it was around in the early 19th century. Apparently the Scots are convinced it's theirs.

I also found out someone else who likened the pie topped with potato slices to cottage tiles, but as they didn't attribute this to any source, I can't be sure it wasn't me.

Posted by RevMotherRaphael (# 18102) on :

Had lovely snack in Estonia that is attributed to the Tatar community which was just like a pasty you'd find in the UK except they'd never use pork. Sometimes two cultures simultaneously stumble upon the same delicious creations and make them their own.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

True pasties are beef, in small chunks, with the vegetables, though the pasty shop chains have a variety of other fillings. Some makers have mince.

I have just got a bit peeved with Waitrose, which had proper pasties, but now has a filling with much less definite bits of meat, and a sort of gloop - this involves cornflour and palm oil. They did stock, briefly, some from another company, as well, but no sign of them now. I am particularly peeved because I had refused to buy a friend a Ginsters pasty as it a) had mince, and b) was not hand crimped. I told him I would get a proper pasty. And I didn't.

I think I read once a suggestion that the idea had arrived from the Levant with the recipe for clotted cream, but can find no evidence for that now.

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

I don't think it is a widespread British value, but I remember John Steed, who wanted his tea stirred anti-clockwise, not clockwise.

Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on :

I'm fearing a hostly reprimand for changing topic a little, however.....

One of my friends said he thought that, in England, English, not British value should be reinforced, I'm not entirely sure what the difference would be.... Any ideas?

(Dear heavenly hosts, sincere apologies if this is too much of a derailment....)

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chocoholic:
I'm fearing a hostly reprimand for changing topic a little, however.....

One of my friends said he thought that, in England, English, not British value should be reinforced, I'm not entirely sure what the difference would be.... Any ideas?

(Dear heavenly hosts, sincere apologies if this is too much of a derailment....)

English values would include the constant forgetting that Wales and Scotland are not England and the disparaging of the aforementioned countries' languages and culture.

[ 16. June 2014, 18:38: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

That would open up a can of worms, as there are many differing parts of England, each with their own values.

Such as not looking at people: as in "Oo you lookin at?"
And not making inquiries: as in "Oo wants ter know?"

Though I suppose these would be covered by keeping oneself to oneself. (Switch accent to RP for this sentence.)

[ 16. June 2014, 18:42: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

For me, British values include the ability to enjoy Marmite on toast while listening to Radio 3 as I am doing now!

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