Thread: Name your own church! Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
If you had the sole power and privilege of naming a new church, what would you name it, and why?

This was brought on by driving home past WAY too many pretentiously named churches, e.g. "The Journey," "The Gathering Place," "Cornerstone," "Mosaic," "Solid Ground," and so forth.

I couldn't help wistfully imagining a tiny church named "The Pitstop," "Coffee and Doughnuts," "The Pebble," "The Fingerpainting," and "Quicksand."

I'd be mightily tempted.

What about you--and why?
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
If you had the sole power and privilege of naming a new church, what would you name it, and why?

This was brought on by driving home past WAY too many pretentiously named churches, e.g. "The Journey," "The Gathering Place," "Cornerstone," "Mosaic," "Solid Ground," and so forth.

I couldn't help wistfully imagining a tiny church named "The Pitstop," "Coffee and Doughnuts," "The Pebble," "The Fingerpainting," and "Quicksand."

I'd be mightily tempted.

What about you--and why?

Nah, the first time one of those more impishly named churches grows to megachurch status, you're going to see the exact same trend, and every church on every corner will have a similarly random name. "Radiator", "French Fries", "Wiggles". And then what started out as counter-cultural and cool and fun will quickly and inevitably become pretentious and lame.
 
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
This was brought on by driving home past WAY too many pretentiously named churches, e.g. "The Journey," "The Gathering Place," "Cornerstone," "Mosaic," "Solid Ground," and so forth.

Those names don't sound pretentious to me, but of course they do hint at the kind of churches they are. It would probably be more pretentious for an independent megachurch to name itself after a saint, as if to give itself a historical validity that it doesn't own!

The English Methodist churches of my experience are usually named after an area or a road. I sometimes daydream about fictional urban Methodist churches with names like 'Albert Street' or 'Charlotte Road' - names that conjure up churches with a Victorian or Edwardian heritage. A 'Cornerstone Methodist Church' would create quite a different image. It whispers rebranding, or perhaps it's a church plant. 'St. Peter's Methodist Church' sounds quite suburban and relatively 'high'.

Some of the Black denominations were known for their quite long and colourful church names. You could have fun making up names such as: 'The Redeemed Christian Church of God in Christ, the Blessed Redeemer in... Hackney'.
 
Posted by Banner Lady (# 10505) on :
 
I would like to attend the church of St.Hiatus.
 
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :
 
Church of Our Lady Queen of the Cosmos, Mediatrix and Co- Redemptrix [Two face]

[ 16. July 2014, 02:20: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I once began to write a novel set in a St. Botolph's Church. I cannot remember why I selected that saint, but I do know that I erected the building on a nearby soccer field in my town. It was going to be a murder mystery.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Nah, the first time one of those more impishly named churches grows to megachurch status, you're going to see the exact same trend, and every church on every corner will have a similarly random name. "Radiator", "French Fries", "Wiggles". And then what started out as counter-cultural and cool and fun will quickly and inevitably become pretentious and lame.

True, though my own intention was to come up with names that were represented the true and usual state of any congregation of ours. Pretentious? Nope. Lame? Most certainly!
 
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
I think I would probably have to call a new church "Bitchin' Schismatics" to be truly reflecting the likely nature of the group.

Although anyone who could admit to being a member would have a good starting point for a discussion.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
I would be happy to attend a church dedicated to St. Eutychus - who, as everyone will remember, is the young man in Acts who went to sleep during one of St. Paul's sermons, fell out of the window and died but was brought back to life by St. Paul. And had to listen to the rest of the sermon.

If he is not the patron saint of congregations, he ought to be.

[ 16. July 2014, 08:13: Message edited by: Jane R ]
 
Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :
 
St Sexburga.

Just because, OK?

I'm also rather a fan of this one, which tells you all you need to know about my sense of humour.

AG
 
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :
 
Church of St. Sciatica and Her Companions
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
Church of the Worshipful Mysteries.
 
Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :
 
Spong United
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
I have sometimes thought of Saint Pancreas, the Anglican riposte to the Sacred Heart, but an uncouth friend has asked why, while we get parishes named after the Visitation, the Nativity, the Epiphany, the Presentation, the Ascension, etc we never see a Church of the Circumcision.
 
Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :
 
Though not a name, I like the motto of The People's Church in Banbury, which is 'No perfect people allowed'.

Maybe I would found a church called Belly Button Church. After all, this congregation is just one part of the wider body. We may be a bit weird looking but we do serve a necessary function.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I once began to write a novel set in a St. Botolph's Church. I cannot remember why I selected that saint, but I do know that I erected the building on a nearby soccer field in my town. It was going to be a murder mystery.

There is a St. Botolph's in London I believe.
 
Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I once began to write a novel set in a St. Botolph's Church. I cannot remember why I selected that saint, but I do know that I erected the building on a nearby soccer field in my town. It was going to be a murder mystery.

There is a St. Botolph's in London I believe.
Indeed there is. Used to walk past it every day on my way to work.
 
Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :
 
Hadstock in Essex, possibly a minster church built by Cnut (spellchecks carefully!), is a St Botolph as well.

AG
 
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
I used to go to a church dedicated to St Werburghs (or St whirlybirds as it was affectionately known). I have never heard of St Werburgh, and have no idea why there are 2 churches in Derby dedicated to her.

I think a St WhirlyBirds church would be cool. You have to arrive by helicopter.
 
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
We have another church of St Werburgh around the corner, here. For a while, its tram stop (St W.'s Rd) achieved fame as the end of the line in these parts, and appeared on destination boards city wide. But then the system was extended, and the road sank back into suburban obscurity, along with its saint.

While I'm on - I'm with Svitlana. I could dream up a kind of nostalgia for me and 20 old folks at the evening service of a Gas Street Methodist. 'Life Church' - f*ck off. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Some of the early suggestions sound more like cafes or pubs to me. e.g. 'The Coffee and Doughnuts'. But then perhaps churches should be like cafes and pubs, with similar names. 'The Come Unto Me All Ye Who Are Heavy Laden' is not much longer a title than 'The Who'd Have Thought It', which is a real pub name (at least two in Creamtealand).

I once saw a cartoon showing a church renamed 'Faithland'. The caption underneath read 'But inside it was still St. Willibert's'. So, in honour of this cartoon, I'd like to name my own church 'St. Willibert's'. It would have a pick'n'mix approach to Christianity.
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I once began to write a novel set in a St. Botolph's Church. I cannot remember why I selected that saint, but I do know that I erected the building on a nearby soccer field in my town. It was going to be a murder mystery.

There is a St. Botolph's in London I believe.
Not one, three!

Jengie
 
Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
Though not a name, I like the motto of The People's Church in Banbury, which is 'No perfect people allowed'.

Nadia Bolz-Weber, probably one of my favorite ministers, runs House for All Sinners and Saints which is a Lutheran church plant in Colorado.

House for All Sinners and Saints

It does however have a somewhat unfortunate acronym - HFASS.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I used to go to a church dedicated to St Werburghs (or St whirlybirds as it was affectionately known). I have never heard of St Werburgh, and have no idea why there are 2 churches in Derby dedicated to her.

I think a St WhirlyBirds church would be cool. You have to arrive by helicopter.

Patron saint of Chester with more churches than I would have thought. I do love the 'little' English saints.
 
Posted by monkeylizard (# 952) on :
 
Saint Ursula's
 
Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
St Barry. When we were looking at names for our younger son we came across St Barry, which seemed an unlikely name for a saint. He was a hermit who lived on what is now called Barry Island. We didn't name my youngest Barry (though we did call my eldest boy's rag doll Barry) but I'd happily name my church it.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
Since many churches claim that Coffee Hour is the eighth sacrament, I suggest Saint Drogo's (the Patron Saint of Coffee).
 
Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I used to go to a church dedicated to St Werburghs (or St whirlybirds as it was affectionately known). I have never heard of St Werburgh, and have no idea why there are 2 churches in Derby dedicated to her.

St Werbugh was educated by St Chad, the chap buried in Lichfield from whence the Diocese of Derby is recently sprung.

As for the Church of the Circumcision, a more modern name might be The Director's Cut.
 
Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Since many churches claim that Coffee Hour is the eighth sacrament, I suggest Saint Drogo's (the Patron Saint of Coffee).

If it's coffee we're after, then surely it must be St Bean!

No, not that one, I mean this one!
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
I think St Moses the Black would be cool. It sounds great and it's an amazing story.

He was a slave who was considered to be so dangerous that his master decided to release him. A man who then went on to terrorise the region with a criminal gang, but eventually ended up hiding from the authorities among some monks.

He then finds Christ and becomes a kickass monk himself. And I mean kickass in all regards, from a prophetic refusal to judge another monk to literally fighting down and capturing a bunch of bandits trying to rob him in his cell. Oh yes, and he's credited for inventing the Paschal feast to break up fasting and eventually gets martyred trying to deal with another bunch of bandits non-violently.

He's also the Patron Saint of Africa.
 
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
Maybe I should go for St Schroedinger the fabulous. For all physicists and gay people.
 
Posted by Casineb (# 15588) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The English Methodist churches of my experience are usually named after an area or a road. I sometimes daydream about fictional urban Methodist churches with names like 'Albert Street' or 'Charlotte Road' - names that conjure up churches with a Victorian or Edwardian heritage. A 'Cornerstone Methodist Church' would create quite a different image. It whispers rebranding, or perhaps it's a church plant. 'St. Peter's Methodist Church' sounds quite suburban and relatively 'high'.

There's a 'Cornerstone Methodist Church' in the city I live. It rebranded about two years ago and started operating a coffee shop at the same time.

However it's also my experience that most Methodist churches are named after their location, e.g. 'Slough Methodist Church'. Of course, 'Wesley' is a fairly common name!
 
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
On a traditional note, I have always liked St Jude.

But if you were looking for quirky / memorable perhaps:

 
Posted by Bene Gesserit (# 14718) on :
 
There are several St. Botolph's churches here in the Flatlands of the East - but then, he did come from these parts!

[ 16. July 2014, 19:48: Message edited by: Bene Gesserit ]
 
Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
Some friends of ours are running "Encounter House" - it describes what it's meant to do, to give people a place where they can encounter God
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
The Kwicky Kirk

Confession and communion in 40 minutes or less.

Millions served.
 
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
I was at St Triangles. These days I'm at St Lego's.
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
Years ago Sine attended a church that he referred to as St. Withits.

Moo
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
We already have local churches such as the Mountain Of Fire And Miracles Ministry, the Incorruptible Word Ministries, the Prayer And Life Ministry, and (my favourite) the Unitarian Church Of The Great Companions.

Further afield, we have St. Sexburga (a lovely Saxon lady saint), St. Werburgh (not sure what she's doing down here in Kent), and our very own 7thC Abbess, St. Eanswythe.

Not too easy to come up with anything more exotic, but I do rather like the sound of St. Uncumber (aka Wilgefortis), whose cult dates from the 14thC - one feels that she should be the patron saint of Clearing All The Clutter And Junk From The Church Boiler-Room (a sore point with our Churchwardens just now.....)!

Ian J.
 
Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I have sometimes thought of Saint Pancreas, the Anglican riposte to the Sacred Heart, but an uncouth friend has asked why, while we get parishes named after the Visitation, the Nativity, the Epiphany, the Presentation, the Ascension, etc we never see a Church of the Circumcision.

You could argue that's what any church called Holy Name is really meant to be called. [Snigger]


How about a Church of the Nameless Woman - which would, of course, leave people wondering under which (presumably biblical, but you never know) woman's patronage it's meant to be.

Could be the woman who anointed Jesus' feet with her tears. He said she'd be remembered wherever the Gospel is proclaimed, but didn't mention her name. Or it could be the Syro-Phonecian woman, or the Samaritan woman at the well, or... you get the point.

Prayers to the patron saint, which could be offered on any given day (when's her feast day, anyway?), would begin, "Whoever you are..."
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
How about a Church of the Nameless Woman? <<snip>> Prayers to the patron saint, which could be offered on any given day (when's her feast day, anyway?), would begin, "Whoever you are..."

Or Church of the Beloved Disciple.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Not too easy to come up with anything more exotic, but I do rather like the sound of St. Uncumber (aka Wilgefortis), whose cult dates from the 14thC - one feels that she should be the patron saint of Clearing All The Clutter And Junk From The Church Boiler-Room (a sore point with our Churchwardens just now.....)!

Ian J.

I like the sound of her, too! To me, she sounds like a lady who likes to be naked, but I admire her anti-clutter side, as well.
 
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
... I'm also rather a fan of this one, which tells you all you need to know about my sense of humour.

D. installed the organ in that church, with help from me and my dad. Well, if I'm being honest, they installed it, and I made the tea and pointed out that the reason they couldn't get one row of pipes to fit was because they were trying to put them on back-to-front. That church has now been closed and replaced with a brand-new one; the organ is in the house of a local toff and I think the building has been sold.

A late friend of ours in Northern Ireland used to refer to the church where he was organist (a shack that was "low" even by the standards of the Church of Ireland) as The Church of the Immaculate Paintwork. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
A church near here is The Church of the Abiding Savior. When a former incumbent had been there for what seemed a lifetime, the church was often referred to as The Church of the Abiding Pastor.
 
Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :
 
There's a church near me called St. Mel's. I had always assumed when I heard of it that "Mel" was a nickname for a longer name. But no, it really is St. Mel. Somehow I find that very amusing.
 
Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :
 
Is there a patron saint of sleep? I'd go to that church.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
There's a church near me called St. Mel's. I had always assumed when I heard of it that "Mel" was a nickname for a longer name. But no, it really is St. Mel. Somehow I find that very amusing.

St. Mel.

quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
Is there a patron saint of sleep? I'd go to that church.

St. Elijah -- and his Feast Day is tomorrow. I think we should all celebrate by sleeping in or having an afternoon nap.
 
Posted by UKCanuck (# 10780) on :
 
Having been raised in a church where asking questions was ill advised unless one wanted to have, "That's the devil whispering in your ear!" shouted at them, I'd want to start a church where one was actively encouraged to ask questions. It would be called So? with church plants called Yeah, but... and No, but...
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by UKCanuck:
Having been raised in a church where asking questions was ill advised unless one wanted to have, "That's the devil whispering in your ear!" shouted at them, I'd want to start a church where one was actively encouraged to ask questions. It would be called So? with church plants called Yeah, but... and No, but...

Could Doubting Thomas be their patron saint?
 
Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :
 
I go to the local Parish Church, which is called <Name of Village> Parish Church. Boring, but it doesn't date. We could probably call it "Church of the Fine Piece." which would make non Doric speakers confused but Doric speakers pleased to know what to expect with their tea after the service.

Cattyish, fond of a fine piece.

Fine pieces.
 
Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:


quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
Is there a patron saint of sleep? I'd go to that church.

St. Elijah -- and his Feast Day is tomorrow. I think we should all celebrate by sleeping in or having an afternoon nap. [/QB]
Or going to church and sleeping through the sermon (which could begin with a reading of "Goodnight Moon").
 
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think I would probably have to call a new church "Bitchin' Schismatics" to be truly reflecting the likely nature of the group.

Although anyone who could admit to being a member would have a good starting point for a discussion.

True story: There is a Harmony Southern Baptist Church in the city where I formerly lived. And it was founded by the disaffected break-aways from seven other congregations.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Yeah...rumor has it that most of tge Peace Lutherans were started as a result of church breakups.
 
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 
About 30 years ago I worked for the then Department of Labour in Rotorua ( North Island, NZ). A group of us had to visit a small town on State Highway 1 to sign up pepole who had been made redundant from the forestry industry. The local Catholic church was called St Joseph the Worker which seemed particularly poignant.

Huia
 
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
For fans of The Quiz we could have The Church of the Blessed Guessometer where many of us would happily worship.
 
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
In a nearby town there is a Believers' Church, which seems a rather nonsensical name that would cover most people of faith but I find from a [very little] bit of research that it is pretty active in doing social good and generally evangelical in nature.

My personal choice for a church would be a dedication to St Weasel the Bewildered.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
Redeemed Christian Church of God has a Holy Ghost Zone and a Royal Diadem Assembly in Northampton.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
A church near me could be renamed 'St. Thurible and All Flying Bishops'
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
My wife's grandparents lived in Cordova, Nebraska, where there used to be two Lutheran churches: the Holy Danes and the Happy Danes (they really did exist - you can look it up). They still have two Lutheran churches; St John's (Missouri Synod) and and Trinity (ELCA), and I don't know how happy or holy either of them is, but the family used to gather at Trinity very happily. The population of Cordova is around 140.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
there used to be two Lutheran churches: the Holy Danes and the Happy Danes

And when they merged, their motto became: A holy Dane is a happy Dane.

Miss Amanda will get her wrap.
 
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :
 
Actually when the Holy Danes and the Happy Danes merged they became, of course, the GREAT Danes!

So sorry, I couldn't resist.
 
Posted by Swordflasher (# 18169) on :
 
Garrison Keillor's fictional Catholic church in Lake Woebegon has always made me chuckle - Our Lady of Perpetual Responsibility.

Taking a leaf from another author I would love to find the Church of Starry Wisdom nestling down a forgotten side street near the docks.

And if I invented a church - how about a Friends Meeting House? No wait, hasn't that..?
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
There's a church not far from here dedicated to Sts Quiricus and Julietta. Another one I like is St Arild. She has a well, but nobody seems to know much about her. At our cathedral, they always remember St Jordan which is prone to cause amusement. Again, nobody knows much about him except that he dates from about 600 and had something to do with St Augustine (Canterbury, not Hippo).

St Botolph was quite a famous saint. Boston Stump, the place from which the Pilgrim Fathers set off, is dedicated to him.

I think my real preference though is for Stella Gibbons's Church of the Quivering Brethren. .
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
When two presbyterian churches in a southern Ontario town, St Giles and St Andrew's, amalgamated a couple of years ago, they were smitten by a blinding flash of heavenly inspiration and became Westside, on account of being on the west side of the river, same as the other two presbyterians. Some believe this may be a holding pattern until the next amalgamation, when they will all become Heavenly Spirit Peace and Fellowship in Sublime Tranquillity Presbyterian Church, or something like that. But not soon.

Getting a bit tangential, but picking up on the Garrison Keillor mention, Stephen Leacock's short story "The rival churches of St Asaph and St Osoph" is also a delight to read.
 
Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :
 
Welcome, Swordflasher! [Big Grin]

I'm glad you braved your first post here in Heaven! There's a special thread of welcome in All Saints which you may want to check out.

Each board has a brief description (or warning!) which will be helpful to you.

I hope you enjoy your voyage with us! [Smile]

jedijudy
One of the Heaven Hosts


ps...my sword is a lightsaber.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
When two presbyterian churches in a southern Ontario town, St Giles and St Andrew's, amalgamated a couple of years ago, they were smitten by a blinding flash of heavenly inspiration and became Westside, on account of being on the west side of the river, same as the other two presbyterians. Some believe this may be a holding pattern until the next amalgamation, when they will all become Heavenly Spirit Peace and Fellowship in Sublime Tranquillity Presbyterian Church, or something like that. But not soon. ...

Or possibly "Both Sides", which would be better than "Backside".
 
Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :
 
I quite like the name of a Korean evangelical church in Los Angeles. The "Aroma of Jesus Mission Church" (Flickr.com picture). Does it smell of roses or something more pungent?
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
I quite like the name of a Korean evangelical church in Los Angeles. The "Aroma of Jesus Mission Church" (Flickr.com picture). Does it smell of roses or something more pungent?

I would think it's a reference to 2 Corinthians 2:15, but that's about our aroma, not God's [Confused]
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
I quite like the name of a Korean evangelical church in Los Angeles. The "Aroma of Jesus Mission Church" (Flickr.com picture). Does it smell of roses or something more pungent?

I would think it's a reference to 2 Corinthians 2:15, but that's about our aroma, not God's [Confused]
The fact that it's a quotation from scripture doesn't let whoever named the church off the charge of having not considered that some people might think this a daft name for a church.

The same goes for whoever wrote the chorus 'Pierce my ear Lord'. It's impeccable theology. That doesn't stop it from producing entirely legitimate mockery from anyone who hears or reads the first line for the first time.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
True. But I rather like daft church names, as they keep us humble. What I loathe and despise are names like "The Association of Courageous Churches" and "Steadfast Lutherans", names chosen by the so-designated themselves. I mean, why praise yourself? It's just a set up for a tremendous fall, besides making nasty people like me hate you on first hearing.
 


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