Ship of Fools: Do You Really Want to Say That?

Thread: Do You Really Want to Say That? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on :

One of my Facebook friends linked to this the other day:

"You Can't Handle the Truth"

Now I could have easily started a thread in DH about the subject of the article. I could have started one in Hell about the misuse of the word "truth" as applied to what is essentially an assertion that someone else is "obviously" lying, based on nothing more than not liking what they have to say.

But... that's too easy a target.

What intrigues me is the use of the title. You'll recall it's a quote from the movie A Few Good Men. I've seen this quote used like this before, by people who think it sounds cool and makes them sound bold and forthright. But they always seem to have forgotten the context. "You can't handle the truth" was spoken by an institutional bully to justify an illegal act of back-room "justice" that ended in a man being killed. Is that really who you want to be quoting? Especially as a defence of Christian "truth"?

I blame Nicholson, he sells that speech too well. [Big Grin]

Anyway what you rarely hear quoted is this exchange:

quote:
Galloway: Why do you hate them so much?

Lt. Weinberg: They beat up on a weakling; that's all they did. The rest is just smokefilled coffee-house crap. They tortured and tormented a weaker kid. They didn't like him. So, they killed him. And why? Because he couldn't run very fast.

or this

quote:
Downey: What did we do wrong? We did nothing wrong!
Dawson: Yeah we did. We were supposed to fight for people who couldn't fight for themselves. We were supposed to fight for Willy.

which I personally feel are more in keeping with the overall message of the movie.

Anyway, it got me thinking about cases where people use cultural references out of context. Not just out of context but almost in direct contradiction to the spirit of the source material.

Anyone else got any good examples of this kind of thing?

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

Sorry Paul, I guess the answer is 'no'. Would you have better luck at the Circus board? You may wish to ask a host or hostess...

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

Sir Kevin

You've been around long enough to know that we don't appreciate junior hosting around here. We're not too keen on sexist stuff either (as you were told recently in All Saints) so please don't use patronising comments like "hostess"

Spike
SoF Admin

Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :

I've often heard Dr Johnson's remark "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" used as though he were describing patriotism, whereas in fact he's just describing scoundrels. There's nothing to suggest he had anything against patriots.

Also, "the exception that proves the rule" is an item of outlying data that seems to disprove the hypothesis, but ends up causing the hypothesis to be revised and making it stronger. However the statement is now used to suggest that the hypothesis is just fine as it is and can safely ignore apparent contradictions.

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

"Money is the root of all evil"....

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

First we state that girls require time and money.
Girls = Time x Money

As we all know, "time is money."
Time = Money

Therefore:
Girls = (Money)^2

And because "money is the root of all evil":
Money = sq. rt.(evil)

It follows:
Girls = sq. rt. ((evil)^2

And we can thus conclude that:
Girls = Evil

Who knew that math logic leads to misogyny?

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

"Up to a point, Lord Copper" is often used that way.

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

"First let's kill the lawyers..."

John

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

Sorry for being surly on my first post and playing junior host, Paul.

I couldn't care less!

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

Lewis Carroll
Will you, won't you, will you, won't you, won't you join the dance?

Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on :

The quote about our life being like the flight of a sparrow, which briefly flies from the dark outside through the lighted hall of life before leaving to go who knows where...

... whereas the context was "But this new Christianity thing will illuminate it all for us! So let's go for that instead!"

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

It sure is reassuring to we pedants to know that we have Weird Al Jankovic on our team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc

Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Lewis Carroll
Will you, won't you, will you, won't you, won't you join the dance?

Can you expand on that? What's the context? How does it get used 'wrongly'?

Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It sure is reassuring to we pedants to know that we have Weird Al Jankovic on our team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc

I wasn't so much thinking of bad grammar and neologisms - I believe there's already a thread for that [Smile]

- as things taken out of context. The Bruce Springsteen song "Born in the USA" is another example - it's often seen as an uncomplicated patriotic song when in fact it's not that at all really. (I think the effect of the tune overrides the lyrics in that case)

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

There is an unwritten rule in western cultures that you don't explicitly contradict Jesus. Even anti-Christians will concede that they admire Jesus, but his followers messed everything up, rather than that Jesus himself was an idiot.

Yet, that custom never seems to stop anyone from delivering a table-banging sermon about "I believe in an eye for an eye", as if expressing this sentiment was the most Christian thing imaginable.

Bouns points if the table-banger prefaces his quote with "Like the Bible says..." (Which it does, but, see the current Marcion threads about that).

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It sure is reassuring to we pedants to know that we have Weird Al Jankovic on our team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc
I wasn't so much thinking of bad grammar and neologisms - I believe there's already a thread for that - as things taken out of context. The Bruce Springsteen song "Born in the USA" is another example - it's often seen as an uncomplicated patriotic song when in fact it's not that at all really. (I think the effect of the tune overrides the lyrics in that case)

Jankovic deals with one to which Sir Kevin alludes: "I could care less" instead of "I couldn't care less".

Then there is, "This problem cannot be underestimated" when the context indicates that it should be, "This problem cannot be overestimated".

On other occasions it is, of course, appropriate to say, "This problem should not (or must not) be underestimated".

Posted by Hugal (# 2734) on :

Not letting the left hand know what the right hand is doing is a good thing not a bad thing.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

There was somebody I once knew, one of whose favourite phrases was "I'm a great believer in ..... ". Without any exception, with 100% consistency, all the time I knew them, this was followed by a really stupid statement.

Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :

"To thine own self be true..." ["and it must follow as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man."]

Shakespeare put this sociopath's motto in the mouth of a pompous, amoral fool for a reason.

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

'...a custom more honoured in the breach than the observance' (Hamlet).

In context it means "This is a custom which is done often, but I think it would be more honourable if they didn't do it at all".

Most people use it to mean "This is supposed to be a custom, but in fact it doesn't happen often".

Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
I wasn't so much thinking of bad grammar and neologisms - I believe there's already a thread for that - as things taken out of context. The Bruce Springsteen song "Born in the USA" is another example - it's often seen as an uncomplicated patriotic song when in fact it's not that at all really. (I think the effect of the tune overrides the lyrics in that case)

Rather reminding me of Alan Partridge explaining - to two Irishmen - that "Sunday, Bloody Sunday" is about the feeling of waking up on Sunday morning and realising Monday is only 24 hours away.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

So much from the Bible gets taken out of context, and now that we're in a generation that doesn't know the Bible very well, a lot of those oft-quoted phrases don't always make sense. I had a friend ask on facebook a while back why you would call someone the "salt of the earth" as if it's a good thing, when if you actually put salt in the soil it would kill plants! Naturally, I explained the context to him, but perhaps it's a biblical allusion to retire.

Posted by Arleigh (# 5332) on :

quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
So much from the Bible gets taken out of context

Like Genesis 31:49:

"May the Lord watch between me and thee when we are absent one from another."

I've had this said to me as a "blessing" on parting, when in context it's more a threat from Laban to his son-in-law Jacob.

♥Arleigh

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

I read a suggestion that in conversation the word "frankly" is usually followed by a lie. It's often true. If nothing else the person is warning you that be default they are not frank. [Big Grin]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
So much from the Bible gets taken out of context, and now that we're in a generation that doesn't know the Bible very well, a lot of those oft-quoted phrases don't always make sense. I had a friend ask on facebook a while back why you would call someone the "salt of the earth" as if it's a good thing, when if you actually put salt in the soil it would kill plants! Naturally, I explained the context to him, but perhaps it's a biblical allusion to retire.

And it doesn't mean salt in the Greek.

Morfe like minerals in Dead Sea mud according to this article.

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
So much from the Bible gets taken out of context, and now that we're in a generation that doesn't know the Bible very well, a lot of those oft-quoted phrases don't always make sense. I had a friend ask on facebook a while back why you would call someone the "salt of the earth" as if it's a good thing, when if you actually put salt in the soil it would kill plants! Naturally, I explained the context to him, but perhaps it's a biblical allusion to retire.
And it doesn't mean salt in the Greek.

Morfe like minerals in Dead Sea mud according to this article.

…or, at least, salt (in the sense of sodium chloride) is only one of its possible range of meanings.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I find it really hard to believe that farmers routinely fertilized their ground with stuff from the Dead Sea shores. AFAIK that's a pretty barren place in terms of vegetation as well as fish--I can't imagine it would be good for farm soil unless the soil had some serious deficiencies going on. And the linked material had no footnotes, so I can't tell on what authority the author says so.

Certainly the "halas" Jesus refers to is likely to be impure salt--salt mixed with other minerals--and I've seen people build a whole logical structure on the idea that the "halas" gets wet and the sodium chloride leaches away, leaving only tasteless impurities behind. But I think that's overthinking it. He postulates an impossible situation (that salt becomes unsalty) because it's outrageous. It's supposed to be outrageous--as outrageous (we wish) as the idea of Christians becoming ineffectual. [Hot and Hormonal]

As for "good neither for the soil nor the manure heap," that's a straightforward reference to salt's other properties--even miraculously un-salty salt would be a bad thing to use on your farm, either right away (applying it to the soil) or in the future (by adding it to the manure/compost heap). In other words, it has lost all use whatsoever, and is worse even than shit or banana peels. Nothing to do with it but toss it on the public paths, where at least it can do no harm.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
...why you would call someone the "salt of the earth" as if it's a good thing, when if you actually put salt in the soil it would kill plants...
And it doesn't mean salt in the Greek.

Morfe like minerals in Dead Sea mud according to this article.
…or, at least, salt (in the sense of sodium chloride) is only one of its possible range of meanings.

Saltpetre comes from the dead sea and is a fertiliser and also a food preservative.

Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on :

Agreed. Good ol' NaCl used before easy access to refrigeration..

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

Saltpetre is a potassium salt not a sodium salt
KNO3. (The 3 should be subscript). AKA potassium nitrate.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Alex

In case you did not know it, salt NaCl can be used to stop tree stumps from re-sprouting once chopped down.

So it is not something you use as a fertilizer.

Jengie

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

Then there's the whole "it doesn't matter one iota" phrase, which hinges on the impression that "one iota" is not very significant-- yet it seems to harken to the Nicene debate when, in fact (at least for Trinitarians) one iota was quite significant.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

Does it? Or does it rather come from Matt 5:18, where we are told that not even one iota will pass from the law, ie. not even something as small as an iota. My Matthew professor argued that this was a translation into Greek of a Jesus saying about the Aramaic letter yudh, which can make the same sound as an iota in certain contexts and is indeed very small.

Posted by guinness girl (# 4391) on :

I am always baffled by the custom in this country (UK) of singing 'Jerusalem' in a patriotic way, as if it glorifies our 'green and pleasant land'. Given that it's actually a poem about the evils of the Industrial Revolution, I'm not sure how appropriate it really is...

Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :

A friend of mine, also from the Rhubarb Triangle, always gives me a nudge at the bit about 'Dark Satanic Mills' and says "that's us, that".

Posted by The Machine Elf (# 1622) on :

quote:
Originally posted by guinness girl:
I am always baffled by the custom in this country (UK) of singing 'Jerusalem' in a patriotic way, as if it glorifies our 'green and pleasant land'. Given that it's actually a poem about the evils of the Industrial Revolution, I'm not sure how appropriate it really is...

Or Scotsmen who insist on pointing out that England isn't where Jesus walked, whereas the whole point of the song is the second verse is a response to the first verse - no, He didn't walk here, but we will be inspired anyway. You don't need to build Jerusalem in Palestine - they already have at least one there.

TME

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