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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Northern Ireland: Gerry Adams Arrested
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
So, in sum, "even the dogs on the street here" (wherever that is) know that "many American Catholic academic institutions" raised money for terrorists, and you won't do the "hard work" of backing up your own allegations?
I haven't done much legwork on this, and given I first made the claim, maybe I should have.
But a very quick google of "Boston College" and "Irish Northern Aid" brought up this transparent puff-piece for NORAID (and the Republican cause in general) in the BC student paper from March 1983. That's for starters - if I have time I'll look for more.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It might resolve things if it was declared that actions carried out under the auspices of a paramilitary group from 1930 to 1998 would be investigated and prosecuted by the international court of Justice at the Hague. So a truly independent prosecutor and judiciary would have to be convinced there was sufficient evidence to proceed. Just take it out of the hands of domestic authorities, to neutralise claims of the authorities playing politics with these issues. (Subject to any exemptions already agreed under the Good Friday agreement.)
That might involve the Irish and UK governments contributing jointly to a trust to fund such investgations by the Hague court, would be cheap by national standards, £10 million or sp.
[ 05. May 2014, 18:40: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Actually, that would be a good system for terrorism in general.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Quetzacotl:
quote:
Well, maybe, but you are really saying that the Good Friday agreement should be abandoned. I say that because one of the reasons it has worked is that 'all these matters' have not been taken to court, and there has been a degree of immunity and amnesty.
I'm not sure the Good Friday Agreement included any arrangements for a total and absolute amnesty on every past 'trouble'.
So are you suggesting that that's what I've said?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Immunity and amnesty is fine so long as it wasn't your mother that disappeared and you believe you now the person or persons responsible.
It does rather bring up the question of just how much politicians have the right to decide on our behalf, without or with contemporary consultation.
I suspect that there are people who, having lost someone they love dear to the troubles - and now discovering the real nature of the amnesty - would want the negotiators concerned to be imprisoned, let alone the perpetrators. Nobody asked the victims what kind of amnesty there should be, did they?
The British Government lost a real opportunity and gave too much away in the Good Friday accord.. The IRA was desperate to settle - as funding via Noraid (mainly sources in the USA) had dwindled to nothing post 9/11 with Americans finally realised what terrorism looked like because they now saw it in their own backyards.
It's yet another thing that Blair will, one day, have to answer for.
So what do you think should have happened instead of the GFA?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
No. But it seemed assumed in the general conversation on it (in your own and others posts), so I thought I'd add to the conversation. I presume that's why we're all here.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, if there was a total amnesty, Adams would not have been arrested, would he?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
No. I know that.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Good man yourself Chesterbelloc.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
by Anglican't;
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
The British Government lost a real opportunity and gave too much away in the Good Friday accord.. The IRA was desperate to settle - as funding via Noraid (mainly sources in the USA) had dwindled to nothing post 9/11 with Americans finally realised what terrorism looked like because they now saw it in their own backyards.
It's yet another thing that Blair will, one day, have to answer for.
Anglican't response;
You mean that funding was dwindling already by 1998? I'm happy to blame Blair for most things, but criticising him for not foreseeing 9/11 in '98 seems a bit strong.
Although Exclamation Mark clearly muddled the timing, I think it is true that 9/11 had an effect on the viability of the Good Friday Agreement; that is, at about the kind of time after the agreement that previous settlements had gone pear-shaped, 9/11 and the 'War on Terror' did put something of a cap on Irish terrorism as well.
Another factor operating I think even before 1998 was that already the nature of global terrorism had changed partly because of the changes in Russia and its European satellites, and partly because Arab terrorism had gone Islamist and was no longer part of the left-wing network which had supported Irish terror - no more Soviet financed arms coming in via Libya, for example.
A few months ago I saw a PSNI officer facing a parliamentary enquiry and saying that in effect, the GFA hadn't actually RESOLVED anything - all the old problems were still simmering away just below the surface, and increasingly above the surface in issues like 'flags' and 'parades' (and what I currently see on BBC teletext NI news seems to indicate increasing bombings and shootings from both sides). Blair was arguably lucky that the external circumstances gave the GFA an extended life it may not really have deserved.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
There used to be thousand pound bombs going off, thats the payload of a scud misslie, Warrington springs to mind. And what is the estimate, 3000 dead in the troubles ? I think you need a really impressive account of what could have been done instead of the Good Friday Agreement, before concluding it was a duff decision to sign it.
I think it is frankly a miracle that it was signed at all given the politicians in Ireland and Northern Ireland at the time.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
Doublethink; I'm not saying the GFA was totally duff; just that it didn't resolve enough, and that being so, it has thankfully lasted longer than might have been expected because of external circumstances. A deeper resolution is probably beyond politicians and needs changes at grass roots level. Hopefully the longer-than-expected life of the GFA has helped with that.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
London was bombed by the IRA and Provisional IRA from 1973 until 1996, with a brief resurgence in 2000-1 - that's 23 years of bombings, just in London, forget about all the other bombings on the mainland and in Northern Ireland. We had longer being bombed than we've had ceasefire.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Dave W:
quote:
So, in sum, "even the dogs on the street here" (wherever that is) know that "many American Catholic academic institutions" raised money for terrorists, and you won't do the "hard work" of backing up your own allegations?
You're totally right, I'm so sorry. It was really the Presbyterians that provided the lump of the cash and hosted all those fund-raising dinners. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Shall I put it in bold for you? Would that help? The claim was that "many American Catholic academic institutions" raised money for terrorists.
Chesterbelloc - I do appreciate the effort; it at least helps me get an idea of what you had in mind. But an article in a student newspaper falls almost comically short of your original allegation.
The idea that institutions like Boston College or Notre Dame had actually themselves raised money for the IRA would have been treated as a shocking revelation. (Though I'm neither Irish nor Catholic, I was pretty surprised to see you post it, which is why I asked for a citation.) I'm pretty sure such a thing would have left plenty of readily Google-able traces.
If, in even a cursory search, the most relevant hits you find are things like articles in student newspapers, I think it's highly likely that there really is no evidence that "many American Catholic academic institutions" raised money for the IRA.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I was not even thinking of a revision of the Good Friday agreement, because AFAIK, it does not contain a general amnesty.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
Although Exclamation Mark clearly muddled the timing, I think it is true that 9/11 had an effect on the viability of the Good Friday Agreement; that is, at about the kind of time after the agreement that previous settlements had gone pear-shaped, 9/11 and the 'War on Terror' did put something of a cap on Irish terrorism as well.
Another factor operating I think even before 1998 was that already the nature of global terrorism had changed partly because of the changes in Russia and its European satellites, and partly because Arab terrorism had gone Islamist and was no longer part of the left-wing network which had supported Irish terror - no more Soviet financed arms coming in via Libya, for example.
A few months ago I saw a PSNI officer facing a parliamentary enquiry and saying that in effect, the GFA hadn't actually RESOLVED anything - all the old problems were still simmering away just below the surface, and increasingly above the surface in issues like 'flags' and 'parades' (and what I currently see on BBC teletext NI news seems to indicate increasing bombings and shootings from both sides). Blair was arguably lucky that the external circumstances gave the GFA an extended life it may not really have deserved.
I was teasing a little.
Presumably another factor in the GFA was age? It's very easy to go round shooting up army barracks when you're 22. When you hit your late 40s and you're married with children, the whole thing must become less appealing.
[ 06. May 2014, 07:37: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Anglican't wrote:
quote:
Presumably another factor in the GFA was age? It's very easy to go round shooting up army barracks when you're 22. When you hit your late 40s and you're married with children, the whole thing must become less appealing.
In Canada, a veteran of the Quebec separatist bombing campaigns in the 1960s sprung back into action in 2000, blowing up an English-language sign at a coffee shop. He was in his mid-50s when he made his heroic return to the front-lines.
As you can imagine, his case garnered more head-shaming bemusement than genuine outrage.
CBC
[ 06. May 2014, 08:23: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Dave W:
quote:
Shall I put it in bold for you? Would that help? The claim was that "many American Catholic academic institutions" raised money for terrorists.
Chesterbelloc - I do appreciate the effort; it at least helps me get an idea of what you had in mind. But an article in a student newspaper falls almost comically short of your original allegation.
Your argument has an uncanny resonance with the ones the Unionists gave at the time of decommissioning.
quote:
The idea that institutions like Boston College or Notre Dame had actually themselves raised money for the IRA would have been treated as a shocking revelation. (Though I'm neither Irish nor Catholic, I was pretty surprised to see you post it, which is why I asked for a citation.) I'm pretty sure such a thing would have left plenty of readily Google-able traces.
I know. Normally terrorists are really good that way and leave handy google traces everywhere.
Posted by Gee D:
quote:
I was not even thinking of a revision of the Good Friday agreement, because AFAIK, it does not contain a general amnesty.
I think you're right, it is what came after that created a difficulty in trying to sort out a quagmire. For its time and considering who actually agreed it, the GFA was a truly remarkable document and I knew people involved in it first hand who right up to the very last minute thought it was never going to happen. As an agreed document I don't think it has outlasted it's use, nor has it lasted longer than is useful. It's still a seriously important document for Ireland, both North and South. Part of the issue was that it wasn't 'sold' particularly well to hard line loyalists. Hard line Republicans split over it, which indicates that the Republican leadership of the time did some serious hard graft in convincing some of them this was the way to go. Meanwhile the Loyalists actually lacked good leadership. They were so used to reactionary politics that they hadn't a notion how to affirm anything positive in a community. The result was that the leadership had to sell something fairly difficult. The document proclaimed equality and fair treatment for all people in Northern Ireland, which to be honest, the loyalists didn't really care for. It also removed many sources of traditional political flame wars that incensed loyalist communities, and once they were removed they suddenly found themselves with nothing to riot about or get angry over. Today, the working out of the GFA continues; in some cases with great success while in other areas it slumps forward while small sections of community try to hold everyone else to ransom through illegal protest, rioting, disruption and intimidation. But I do think they are in the minority - at least, I hope they are.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
One of the problems I was having finding citations is the date. The Internet doesn't have many traces pre-1998 because it wasn't that established then
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Fletcher Christian wrote sarcastically:
quote:
Normally terrorists are really good that way and leave handy google traces everywhere.
I believe NORAID functioned pretty openly, didn't they? Wikipedia gives this as their current website, and that link lists their mailing address. Plus, other articles I looked at included interviews with their leaders, who quite openly gave their names.
If they had been getting official support from Catholic colleges, I think it would probably be on record somewhere. But it might not be the kind of information that would have been widely transferred to the internet, simply because nobody would think to bother.
In my Catholic school district in the 1980s, so-called pro-life speakers were routinely brought in to inveigh against abortion. But you would likely find scant evidence of that on the internet, because "So and so came to St. John Doe High School in Edmonton to talk about abortion" would not be considered historically significant information.
[ 06. May 2014, 09:13: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Curiousity Killed wrote...
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
One of the problems I was having finding citations is the date. The Internet doesn't have many traces pre-1998 because it wasn't that established then
My own amateur guess would be that, in areas with heavy Irish Catholic population, there would be relatively significant support for the IRA, and that some of this would manifest itself in the local campus milieu. Like, some local republican supporters would call up the History department and say "Hey, will you sponsor us to come talk about the evils of the British occupation?", and the History department would say "Sure, why not?"
Like I said earlier, my Catholic school district in Alberta gave pretty-much official support to Ukrainian nationalism. Our school had a Ukrainian bilingual program, and on the one occassion when I ventured into the classroom, there were anti-Russian cartoons displayed on the walls. And I think the history lectures were replete with the same sort of thing.
But I doubt that was a common feature of Catholic schools and colleges in areas with no large Ukrainian population. By the same token, I would question whether hispanic or Polish oriented schools in the USA were hosting Erin Go Bragh sing-alongs with the local NORAID chapter.
[ 06. May 2014, 09:27: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
What Stetson just said.
Sometimes the best we have to go on pre-net is "everyone knew such things were going on at the time" and hope some evidence becomes available to us from the comfort of our keyboards. Frankly, I don't think the blatant propaganda piece in the Boston College student paper is particularly negligible - it's clearly relevant, but it's only out there at all because someone went to the bother of digitising print content from 1983. And, yes, it is just one piece of evidence which directly proves very little.
What is freely asserted is of course easily contested - I'm asserting, Dave W is contesting. That's fine by me.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Stetson:
quote:
I believe NORAID functioned pretty openly, didn't they?
Yes and no. They presented themselves as a genuine charity for the most part though. There are various problems; partly being what has been suggested - this is also pre-internet days essentially. But despite that, there is strangely still enough info on Noraid online to know what they were at. All those who were officially involved in investigating Noraid during the 70's and 80's concluded that the 'charity' was taking in millions rather than thousands, although there are a few that would dispute that. But if you accept that millions were involved, you don't get that from pub collections. Noraid had many, many special dinners with invited guests and various fund-raising events. Where the money went is pretty much untraceable, but I'd be inclined to trust the officials that it went to nefarious projects. Certainly here in Ireland nobody ever doubted where Noraid money went. After 9/11 nobody in the US wanted to be seen to be officially supporting such a thing. I have no doubt that many who had supported Noraid started to ask themselves some very hard questions and were probably quite keen to remove any identifiable links to such a group. That isn't to say that those who supported Noraid financially or otherwise were entirely complicit in terrorism. They were effectively duped. But that's how terrorism works; it creates its own world of entanglements and things that sound right and 'facts' that surely must be true.
There are some good books and well researched papers written on Noraid, but its a very murky world, as you would expect and information isn't exactly easy to come by. As I said before, the dogs on the street here knew what Noraid was up to, where the money came from and were certain of where it went. Did they have Google citations? No. To ask for such a thing shows extreme crass innocence and it's why terrorism is so effective. They operate in a dark, dirty world with people who are seriously clever and insidiously cunning. For those who want to bury their heads in the sand, that's their bag that only helps to continue the cycle of enabling ruthless and calculating murderers.
Gerry Adams has walked free because he's a clever man with a lot of very clever people behind him. For those of us without the blessing of innocence or of not having first-hand experience of the troubles, we have to live with the ethically dubious prospect of an uneasy peace with killers. That isn't to say Gerry Adams is the only one with a filthy past and it is certainly not the case that it is only Republicans that stick in the throat of those who now know peace at any cost is better than that black world with its veil of constant threat. The GFA was a ray of great hope, and one that many people still cling to. I don't think it was an accident of history in terms of when it occurred; forgiveness is often a bitter pill when it comes down to brass tacks. Many people know they are shaking the hand of the devil, even in Northern Ireland politics today, Has it worked? Sort of. Many hold out the hope that when the old devils die off, they won't be replaced with new ones. It's one hell of a long shot, but it's the only hope Northern Ireland has right now, so may as well give it a go.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Dave W:
quote:
Shall I put it in bold for you? Would that help? The claim was that "many American Catholic academic institutions" raised money for terrorists.
Chesterbelloc - I do appreciate the effort; it at least helps me get an idea of what you had in mind. But an article in a student newspaper falls almost comically short of your original allegation.
Your argument has an uncanny resonance with the ones the Unionists gave at the time of decommissioning.
Still unable to provide any evidence of what I asked about, I see. (To refresh your memory, the key phrase is the one in quotes.) quote:
quote:
The idea that institutions like Boston College or Notre Dame had actually themselves raised money for the IRA would have been treated as a shocking revelation. (Though I'm neither Irish nor Catholic, I was pretty surprised to see you post it, which is why I asked for a citation.) I'm pretty sure such a thing would have left plenty of readily Google-able traces.
I know. Normally terrorists are really good that way and leave handy google traces everywhere.
Really? Perhaps you'll care to pass that along to the guy who said this quote:
"I'm sure if you google it, it will come up and provide you with a full list of donors if you're really that interested."
just yesterday. (Funny, that - first it was easy, then it became "hard work", but now apparently it's impossible.)
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Sometimes the best we have to go on pre-net is "everyone knew such things were going on at the time" and hope some evidence becomes available to us from the comfort of our keyboards.
But how do you think you would know that thing you specifically said? I'm not arguing that no Irish Americans gave money to NORAID - there's plenty of evidence they did - but it seems to me that fact has rather too easily slipped to talk that "many American Catholic academic institutions" have "records of fundraising and platforming for the IRA leadership". How do you know? I mean, if you claim they have records, shouldn't they have, you know, records? quote:
Frankly, I don't think the blatant propaganda piece in the Boston College student paper is particularly negligible - it's clearly relevant
An article in a student newspaper is evidence that American Catholic academic institutions can't be trusted to "[conduct] non-partisan historical programmes of research"?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
This thread is starting to get a little bit like this
Dave I know you seem to be having trouble with sarcasm and irony, but on a serious note, just think about what your asking for even two seconds. You're asking for Google evidence of what is now commonly held to be a terrorist fund-raising arm. You're asking for specific citations of Google evidence for those who in the past were deeply misled and who today are probably deeply ashamed they ever participated in, platformed or financially supported the thing. You're asking for Google evidence...I mean, Google evidence! Really? Terrorists....google....google for fuck sake.
I know I probably should have put a smilie or something beside that comment in an otherwise sensible post (and yes, maybe a part of me just couldn't resist reeling you in), but my bad; I had no idea I was dealing with someone so feckin gullible.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Dave W, it may well be that people didn't rattle the tins under other peoples' noses with the words "Bombs for Belfast", but bearing in mind the assumptions of the time, if the money they collected didn't fund terrorism/the armed struggle (choose preferred phrase), those who gave it would have been entitled to complain that it had been extracted from them under false pretences.
[ 06. May 2014, 15:49: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
I'm afraid Dave's not going to like the source of this next bit - the same Boston College student mag that I cited last time - but I'm finding digitised print sources from Catholic colleges for the relevant period somewhat hard to find, and this is the best one to pop up so far.
This one's from November 1984 and is a write-up of a guest lecture (emphasis mine): quote:
English journalist Liz Curtis addressed the problems of press coverage in Northern Ireland from an English point of view in a lecture Tuesday at Boston College. The lecture was part of her statewide publicity tour promoting her new book on this topic. Curtis began by explaining that the prime source of news from Northern Ireland in the American press was the British news services, and that these services have consistently distorted the information with a pro-Britain slant ... pro-British, anti-lrish Republican Army (IRA) "horror stories" are designed to prevent Irish Americans from taking an "active part" in ridding the Emerald Isle of its troubles ... The event was sponsored in part by the Boston College Irish Studies department ... A major sponsor of her lecture series is the Irish-American Unity Conference, a mixture of over 600 Irish-American organizations (AOH) joined for the "political reunification of Ireland, and the right of its people to self-determination." Members of the organization include the AOH in America and Irish Northern Aid.
If nothing else, this does prove that BC itself was officially platforming speakers during the Troubles who were being sponsored to say pro-Republican, anti-British stuff by, amongst others, NORAID. Does that take us a bit closer?
Incidentally, NORAID were placing advertisements for fundraising in this same paper as late as 1995 ("Staff/Faculty/Administration: help advance the Gerry Adams Peace Initiative - join Irish Northern Aid.")
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
What Noraid was up to is well documented. The Wikipedia article on Noraid has a link to this 1985 Christian Science Monitor article about money raised by Noraid in the US ostensibly for charitable purposes being diverted toward arms purchases: an article from 1985 on the internet.
Clear back in 1981, a US court of appeals determined that the Irish Northern Aid Committee's foreign principal was the IRA: a 1981 legal document on the internet.
In 1983, Ireland's public radio broadcaster ran a piece on the politicization of St. Patrick's Day parades in the US, citing the influence of Noraid, "the fundraising wing of the IRA": A 1983 radio broadcast archived on the internet.
We can see in this NY Times piece from 1984 that it was no secret that Noraid was raising money for the IRA: a 30-year-old article on the internet.
So what Noraid was doing in the US was well known in the 1980s and is documented on the internet. But what I can't find on the internet is any evidence, even shaky evidence - no rumor, no blog post, no hazy reminiscence - that American Catholic universities supported Noraid.
As for Liz Curtis, from what I can find about the book she was promoting at Boston College, it is well-researched and considered "path-breaking"
by later critics. She doesn't in the least appear to be a pro-IRA shill.
[ 06. May 2014, 19:02: Message edited by: RuthW ]
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
As for Liz Curtis, from what I can find about the book she was promoting at Boston College, it is well-researched and considered "path-breaking"
by later critics. She doesn't in the least appear to be a pro-IRA shill.
I found much the same, Ruth.
But I'm more struck by the fact that BC invited, co-sponsored and its student mag reviewed (in a pretty anti-British, pro-Republican manner) her lecture/book tour - and her tour was being sponsored by Noraid. I doubt they'd have done that for a pro-Unionist speaker, but I invite correction on that. Wittingly or not, her work seems to have been utilised by the funders of terror to raise interets in their cause - and wittingly or not, BC played its part in that.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I happen to be walking with my family in County Kerry, Ireland this week. As is our, and more especially my, habit when walking we stop in pubs when it suits or is raining, and we talk extensively with others, and also B&B proprietors, cab drivers etc. This is no survey, but in this rather Gaelic area, the general comment from the 20 and 30 year olds is that it is not on the radar. The older ones mention Bill Clinton and the peace process. No thinks or cares much about Adams. "Past his time" we hear.
The radio (I listen to radio at night everywhere) barely mentions it. This is both Dublin and Trâ Li. Only seen TV news twice within the past 5 days. Passing mention, nothing more. Makes me ask if this troubles the English more than the Irish?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
. Makes me ask if this troubles the English more than the Irish?
Well, for a start Kerry's not NI is it? Try it in one of the choicer districts over the border and see where that gets you.
OTOH, there was always a view in the Republic that when it came down to it the UK was welcome to the 6 Counties - at least for as long as it was as dicey as it was for a long time. The last thing the Republic needed was the level of angst and destabilisation that would have followed from incorporation of NI at its most festive - in terms of the injection not only of presumably continuity dissident loyalists but, perhaps more importantly Marxist natuonalists with ammunition and a success to shout about.
Having said that, and this isn't for a second to deny that "bad things" happened south of the border too, the English, whilst in general probably spending 30 years wishing the whole thing would go away, were after NI probably the most affected by the Troubles. Certainly there are families in Birmingham, Guidlford, Eastbourne, London, Warrington, etc ad nauseam who've never crossed the Irish Sea in their life but have a particular reason to feel involved:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain
Not for nothing is it a relatively regular observation (with tongue only slightly in cheek) these days in England that, were Scotland to vote for independence later this year, please can they take their kith and kin over the water with them and leave England and Wales out of it...
I think what you might find overall is that it troubles the Northern Irish, then the English, then the Irish south of the border in that order - but it would be wrong to suggest that the English are more bothered about it than anyone on the island of Ireland, because what some people have said to you in Kerry is not exactly representative of thinking in Belfast or Londonderry/Derry.
It is slowly getting better though, and we have to hope that it will continue to do so.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Dave I know you seem to be having trouble with sarcasm and irony, ...
Have we sunk this far now? "That thing I said ... uhh ... it was sarcasm! Yeah, that's the ticket! And irony!" The context was:
quote:
During this period many catholic institutions were listed as both patrons and donors. For example, a few members of the Kennedy clan briefly appeared as patrons, Boston College hosted fund-raising events and were also donors and St Patrick's Cathedral New York regularly gave donations and hosted events. By the 90's things changed (they were going to change even more dramatically when 9/11 came). I think there was a test case or something regarding charitable registration. I'm sure if you google it, it will come up and provide you with a full list of donors if you're really that interested.
Yep, that's you describing the sort of seekrit terrorist stuff that nobody could possibly learn about using the internet. (And yet somehow you (you!) know all about it!)
I don't think I'm the one who should feel embarrassed about this exchange.
Chesterbelloc - Again, thanks for your help.
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
But I'm more struck by the fact that BC invited, co-sponsored and its student mag reviewed (in a pretty anti-British, pro-Republican manner) her lecture/book tour - and her tour was being sponsored by Noraid. I doubt they'd have done that for a pro-Unionist speaker, but I invite correction on that. Wittingly or not, her work seems to have been utilised by the funders of terror to raise interets in their cause - and wittingly or not, BC played its part in that.
Must any criticism of British policy be considered tantamount to supporting terrorism? Surely the idea of the British government using censorship and propaganda isn't that outrageous.
So in sum: BC hosts a lecture by an English woman (who you apparently agree was not a shill for the IRA) critical of British press coverage in Northern Ireland. You don't like the tone of the review in a student paper (editorially and financially independent from the University since 1971), and among the more than 600 groups of the organization sponsoring her book tour is Noraid.
No, I don't see this as even remotely approaching "many American Catholic academic institutions" fundraising for the terrorists.
(And think about the unlikelihood of it all - "Academic institution raises funds for cause other than itself!" The dean would have a stroke.)
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Hang on - I gave the reference to the court case on charitable registration here, and RuthW also linked to similar material here - so some of that has been proven. There is an 1985 Christian Monitor article talking about the fundraising activities which talks of the opacity of the fundraising activities on page 2:
quote:
``There is no way we can check on their money-laundering operation, because you never know how much they collect,'' says Donald J. McGorty, head of the division at the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in New York that handles international terrorism.
He adds: ``There's no way we can tell if they collected $100,000 or $5 million. Now, whether all that money is sent to Ireland, who's to say? But in any scenario you can think of about the money, there is a probability against all other scenarios that it has been used.''
Chesterbelloc made the assertion about American Catholic colleges - and has tried to find material to back it up, but when we're talking about the 1980s, well before the Internet, there's a good chance that material was edited before it got put on line and there's a good chance that material was destroyed to cover up links.
You can't say that it didn't happen, because it's entirely possible, but you can say case unproven.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Dave, you seem to have missed this:
quote:
....he's not far wrong.....
and this:
quote:
This had an effect too on many of the institutions that formerly funded Noraid. Who in the post 9/11 States wants to be publicly associated with such a thing? Some of it has been wiped clean, but there is enough still there to get a fair picture.
and this:
quote:
I'm so sorry. It was really the Presbyterians that provided the lump of the cash and hosted all those fund-raising dinners
...and that's a fairly key point, because think about it for just a moment. I know I put it very flippantly, but the reality of the situation is that they have a fairly specific target audience that would tend to be 'Irish' (in various ways) and Catholic.
And there was also this:
quote:
After 9/11 nobody in the US wanted to be seen to be officially supporting such a thing. I have no doubt that many who had supported Noraid started to ask themselves some very hard questions and were probably quite keen to remove any identifiable links to such a group.
and this:
quote:
Did they have Google citations? No. To ask for such a thing shows extreme crass innocence and it's why terrorism is so effective. They operate in a dark, dirty world with people who are seriously clever and insidiously cunning. For those who want to bury their heads in the sand, that's their bag that only helps to continue the cycle of enabling ruthless and calculating murderers.
and this:
quote:
You're asking for Google evidence of what is now commonly held to be a terrorist fund-raising arm. You're asking for specific citations of Google evidence for those who in the past were deeply misled and who today are probably deeply ashamed they ever participated in, platformed or financially supported the thing.
It's a little like asking for Google citation on the 'many Irish churches that aided and abetted terrorists in Ireland'. You might find plenty written on it, but little by way of actual evidence let alone Google evidence. Of course there were churches that did this both in relation to republican and loyalist terrorists and of course the newspapers occasionally ran with a sensational story, but with little by way of fact; but that wasn't surprising in a society where just about everyone was afraid to talk. Did it happen at all? Yes, it did, and everyone knew it did but you just didn't talk about those things. Does this mean that every last protestant and catholic shack in the land were up to the same shenanigans? Absolutely not. Most kept their heads down hoping they would survive and see it out the other end and many, many others were shining lights of hope and were incredibly courageous. But it all existed in a cloak and dagger world. I know it might be hard to understand if you have only ever lived in a nice democratic and relatively stable world, but there are places in the world that are just not like that. Lots of issues surrounding Northern Ireland will probably forever be deemed as mere hearsay yet strongly believed to be true by those who lived through it and witnessed it first hand, but that is part and parcel of how terrorism works - it's a dirty, dirty tar pit of bluff, confusion, cover up, fear and most of all, silence.
Right at the start I said 'he's not far wrong'. Do I personally have evidence? No, but that's the reason that right at the very start I chose those words rather than, 'Dave, he's actually 100% right'. Do I believe that he could have been 100% right? Yep, I think there's a fairly high chance of that. Do I believe that Gerry Adams was at least at one time part of the high command chain in the IRA? You bet your ass I do. Are there Google citations as evidence of this? I'm sure there's a bit of chatter all right, but it would strike me as odd that Google of all things would cite firm evidence of something that for years....literally for years, many people were looking for in order to throw the book at someone who was part of an illegal organisation and a list of dead that cried beyond the grave for justice. Are you starting to get a picture of just what it is you're asking for?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
Fletcher Christian, I assure you I haven't missed a single wiggle in your graceless shimmy from "I'm sure you could find the information with Google" to "why should I do the hard work" to "no one could possible expect me to support my claims with readily verifiable evidence." But if you don't have any evidence on the point at issue, I see no particular reason to credit the opinion of someone who is happy to post such gems as these:
quote:
Like an Irish journalist knows how to spell confidentiality, let alone knows what it means
quote:
Meanwhile in the US, all them good Catholic Irish who had never set foot on Irish soil and had as much understanding of the truth of the situation as a gnat would, put their podgy hands into their wallets and purses.
Curiousity killed ...
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Chesterbelloc made the assertion about American Catholic colleges - and has tried to find material to back it up, but when we're talking about the 1980s, well before the Internet, there's a good chance that material was edited before it got put on line and there's a good chance that material was destroyed to cover up links.
You can't say that it didn't happen, because it's entirely possible, but you can say case unproven.
And I could have killed a man in Reno just to watch him die. It's possible! You can't prove that it didn't happen!
This approach is a wonderful way of allowing all kinds of broad-brush slurs to be leveraged against entire classes of people. We know some of them gave money to Noraid, so it's OK to make up any kind of outrageous claim about any of them? To the point where we can blithely claim that Jesuit colleges (BC) and the seat of the archbishop of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New York (as FC claimed) raised money for terrorists, and not expect to provide any evidence beyond unsympathetic articles in a student newspaper and accounts of a book tour critical of British press coverage of Northern Ireland?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Dave W, fletcher christian
There is a point where vigorous disagreement over issues and arguments begins to cross over into personal and personality conflict. I'd say you two are pretty close to that point, so please cool it - or take any personal conflict to Hell.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
In the absense of internet documentation(which I agree could be hard to come by), I wonder if the proponents of the "many American Catholic institutions" theory of NORAID support could provide at least anecdotal evidence, preferably from their own memories.
Back to my own experience, if someone asked me "How do you know there was support for the pro-life viewpoint in Canadian Catholic schools?", I could reply that in religion class we read textbooks that portrayed abortion in a bad light, that pro-lifers were often invited in as guest speakers, that at another school in my hometown they showed films meant to instill negative sentiment about abortion, and I read in the newspaper about students at Catholic schools in another province getting time off classes to go to an anti-abortion demo. And so on and so forth.
So, can anyone provide specific memories, either first-hand or from media accounts, of "Amercian Catholic academic institutions" giving official or semi-official support to NORAID or the IRA?
And, I'd prefer to hear about institutions not closely affiliated with Irish communities, since the original allegation was clearly talking about Catholic institutions in general, and in any case I don't think anyone is disputing that there was relatively significant support for NORAID among Irish-Americans.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
fletcher christian wrote:
Lots of issues surrounding Northern Ireland will probably forever be deemed as mere hearsay yet strongly believed to be true by those who lived through it and witnessed it first hand, but that is part and parcel of how terrorism works - it's a dirty, dirty tar pit of bluff, confusion, cover up, fear and most of all, silence.
Fair point, but I would add that these are often features of wars, civil wars, and major conflicts; I mean, that there is obfuscation, rumour, lies, dissembling, and lots of other words like that.
For a recent example, see the American attacks on Fallujah in 2003 and 2004. There are many disputed accounts of what happened, e.g. American troops fired on civilians, used white phosphorous bombs, the hospital was closed, anyway, this list goes on and on. Isn't this the nature of war, especially if it goes on a long time? It becomes brutal and inhumane and full of lies. File next to Bliar.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
In the absense of internet documentation(which I agree could be hard to come by), I wonder if the proponents of the "many American Catholic institutions" theory of NORAID support could provide at least anecdotal evidence, preferably from their own memories.
But I couldn't even find anecdotes - no rumors, no blog posts, nothing. There's reminiscing about Noraid collecting money at bars in South Boston, but nothing about them raising money with the aid of Catholic universities.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
The NY Times reports that BC is now offering to return the interview materials to any interviewees who want them "to accommodate the requests of interviewees who fear for safety in light of the recent actions taken by the P.S.N.I."
Presumably to spare BC further headaches and legal expenses as well.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
In the absense of internet documentation(which I agree could be hard to come by), I wonder if the proponents of the "many American Catholic institutions" theory of NORAID support could provide at least anecdotal evidence, preferably from their own memories.
But I couldn't even find anecdotes - no rumors, no blog posts, nothing. There's reminiscing about Noraid collecting money at bars in South Boston, but nothing about them raising money with the aid of Catholic universities.
Well, I did a google on "Jesuits NORAID", and got this right-wing forum. One guy says he went to a Jesuit high-school in New England, and all the Irish kids bragged about supporting NORAID. But, again, those are Irish-Amercians, and he doesn;t say anything about official school sponsorship.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
I'm not sure how Free Republic's comments section works, but if you click the "To 20" icons under each reply, it seems to take you to some sort of "ub-reply" section. But I think they're all to the same place(not 100% sure).
Still haven't seen anything about univeristy support.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
"ub-reply"
That should read "sub-reply".
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I do vaguely remember references to some of the corrupt ways that funds were raised in novels of the time - but when I tried to chase that one down it was probably in some 1980s Jackie Collins saga that was looking at Mafia and IRA funding (the Lucky books if anyone else read them) and there is no-way, no-how that I'm re-reading them to check if those particular pot boilers were that source and/or exactly what was said.
The other author who has made mention of some of that murkiness is Linda Fairstein in her Alexandra Cooper books.
But I've no real dog in this fight and I'm not staking anything on vague memories of backgrounds in novels I've read.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I do vaguely remember references to some of the corrupt ways that funds were raised in novels of the time - but when I tried to chase that one down it was probably in some 1980s Jackie Collins saga that was looking at Mafia and IRA funding (the Lucky books if anyone else read them) and there is no-way, no-how that I'm re-reading them to check if those particular pot boilers were that source and/or exactly what was said.
The other author who has made mention of some of that murkiness is Linda Fairstein in her Alexandra Cooper books.
But I've no real dog in this fight and I'm not staking anything on vague memories of backgrounds in novels I've read.
I clearly recall watchning part of a 60 Minutes segment about some wealrhty Irish-American guy who was either funding or raising money for the IRA. But I don't recall that he had any direct c0nnection to universities.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
But still I am confused about why the arrest was made. For what it's worth my gut feeling is [DELETED]. But it looks like there is not enough solid evidence to convict. So it ends up being a propaganda win for him. Meanwhile the family's hopes have been falsely raised and they get their faces rubbed in it again. What's the benefit?
[Edited to delete potential legal risk – Eliab]
[ 08. May 2014, 20:02: Message edited by: Eliab ]
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
If the police didn't follow new leads, they would be accused of being soft on the IRA. Whether or not there were genuine new leads, I don't know, since stories about Adams being an IRA commander, and having ordered various misdeeds, are legion, but in this case, they were on tape, and therefore, perhaps 'harder'. On the other hand, Dolours Price was well known for her previous accusations against Adams. Presumably, the police did not want to use her as a witness.
But there may be other things going on behind the scenes, which I suppose we will not hear about - although there is plenty of speculation, as always.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
But still I am confused about why the arrest was made. For what it's worth my gut feeling is [DELETED]. But it looks like there is not enough solid evidence to convict. So it ends up being a propaganda win for him. Meanwhile the family's hopes have been falsely raised and they get their faces rubbed in it again. What's the benefit?
[Edited to delete potential legal risk – Eliab]
Although there is very little doubt that Adams is a shit who could make the world a happier place by falling under a bus and breaking his spine, this is not the place to speculate that he is guilty of a specific murder which he denies and which is subject to an active investigation.
The political implications of the arrest, the merits of revenge and reconciliation, the requirements of justice on the hypothesis that there is evidence for a prosecution, are all fair topics for discussion. Any insinuation of actual guilt is not.
Eliab
Purgatory Host
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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