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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Northern Ireland: Gerry Adams Arrested
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
So Gerry Adams (Sinn Fein leader) just got arrested for a murder in the Troubles in the 70's. I don't know much about all the details or the history, but those who do: Could this cause a flare up of tensions in Northern Ireland or are we closer to the point where crimes of the Troubles can be prosecuted without people getting all upset about which side is being prosecuted? The main source of controversy among those who still take sides seems to be that plenty of other people with (allegedly) blood on their hands are not being prosecuted. Thoughts?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
1. The timing is unfortunate - close to Assembly election time.
2. If 'retired' (alleged) terrorists can be prosecuted, what about soldiers eg: Bloody Sunday?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think if Adams is prosecuted and found guilty, there would be a shit-storm, as it would appear to many people to go against the peace agreement. Legally, it wouldn't, but would that count in nationalist and Republican eyes? It could undo it all, I suppose, and people would demand that soldiers and loyalists are also prosecuted. Can of worms comes to mind.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Crśsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
There's an interesting implication here regarding academic freedom and historical documentation. From the Boston Globe:
quote:
For [Boston College's] Belfast Project, researchers Ed Moloney, a journalist, and Anthony McIntyre, a former IRA volunteer, recorded interviews with members of militia groups that clashed during the Irish Troubles, a conflict between those who would unite Northern Ireland with the Republic of Ireland and those who wanted it to remain within the United Kingdom.
<snip>
Participants in the history project had agreed to interviews with the understanding that their statements would be confidential until their deaths.
But in 2011, federal prosecutors issued subpoenas for interviews with [IRA volunteer Brendan] Hughes, who had died in 2008, and [Provisional IRA member Dolours] Price, who was then alive but died in 2013.
Boston College turned over materials concerning Hughes. It initially fought the release of the Price recordings but ultimately turned them over to British authorities.
A second subpoena was later issued for “any and all” interviews that contained information about McConville’s death. A federal appeals court ruled in 2013 that 11 interviews had to be released.
On the one hand, the state never guaranteed anyone confidentiality. That was done by private researchers at Boston College. On the other hand, if statements given in confidence can later be used in prosecutions that could make credible eye witnesses to historical events reluctant to leave a record. So in addition to other considerations, there's the balance to be struck between justice and history.
[ 02. May 2014, 17:01: Message edited by: Crśsos ]
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Also if the peace deal collapsed, which it might do, the researchers themselves might be in grave danger, as the ultra-Republicans could well see them as British agents.
The British and Irish govts right now are on their knees praying that this case collapses. They can't face the prospect of McGuinness resigning, which he might well do. Then you have direct rule again, and who knows what.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
So I'm the only person who thought "Gotcha!" when I heard the news?
Frankly, if he's guilty they should throw the book at him. They won't, of course, he'll get the maximum of two years that was agreed as part of the Peace Process. A deal was done, and given that it has probably saved countless innocent lives from Mr Adams' semtex-happy chums we must learn to live with it. But call me a depraved Hobbesian if you will, but I rather take the line that prosecuting murderers is more important than
the Amour Propre of Bostonian academics or the Shinner indignation industry.
A woman was dragged from her home and murdered whilst her children were abused and insulted by a bunch of goons. That has to count for something.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
So I'm the only person who thought "Gotcha!" when I heard the news?
While one shouldn't count one's chickens before they've hatched, I did smile to myself when I heard the news.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I listened to Michael McConville's testimony on the radio.
Bearing in mind that the IRA were people who would kidnap an 11 year-old boy, tie him to a chair, beat him up and conduct a mock execution... if Adams was involved in any way, he deserves all he gets.
Not to excuse anyone else's dark deeds, either. The truth will out.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
How much do young Northern Islanders still get riled up about these things? Do those that do get angry just want to see the people on the other side who did bad things go to prison? Is whatever other controversy that still simmers mostly limited to Orange parade routes? I'm really ignorant about all this.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
2. If 'retired' (alleged) terrorists can be prosecuted, what about soldiers eg: Bloody Sunday?
Er, soldiers have been prosecuted.
Those from Bloody Sunday certainly haven't been told they won't be in due course if there's a case for individuals to answer - which was half the stink about the recent "don't worry we're not interested in you" letters to various provos.
No one should be untouchable. If this is the time to bring down the big man because there's evidence then so be it. There's either an amnesty for everyone, or an amnesty for no one.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
How much do young Northern Islanders still get riled up about these things? Do those that do get angry just want to see the people on the other side who did bad things go to prison? Is whatever other controversy that still simmers mostly limited to Orange parade routes? I'm really ignorant about all this.
Not just NI, there's a generation of scarred people south of the border, and on the other side of the Irish Sea. Obviously it wasn't as bad as life on the Shankhill/Ardoyne/Garvachy Road, but there's plenty of people in England who grew up in the shadow of random explosions, bomb scares, backing away from unattended luggage, etc throughout the 70s, 80s and early 90s.
Nothing about the ship I've seen in the many years I've been reading it suggests we can't we can't do this, but I have to say I'm going to watch this thread through my fingers.
It's very close to home for more than a few people, inside and outside NI.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crśsos:
On the other hand, if statements given in confidence can later be used in prosecutions that could make credible eye witnesses to historical events reluctant to leave a record. So in addition to other considerations, there's the balance to be struck between justice and history.
The problem with this kind of argument is that it supposes that history is actually being served by such "confidential" interviews in the first place.
Maybe those who are being interviewed in such programmes are being honest, open, fair and frank in what they tell the researchers. But many of those with the greatest reason to prefer the anonymity of confidentiality also have the opportunity thereby to tell their own preferred version of history without the proper scrutiny of their accounts being fully public.
This problem is compounded by the extreme partiality of many American Catholic academic institutions whose own records of fundrasing and platforming for the IRA leadership in the 70s onward put them in a dubious position to be conducting non-partisan historical programmes of research. Why assume that a forensic investigative process leading to a criminal trial will necessarily produce less of reliable historical worth than such a research programme?
Which is why I think it would be wrongheaded and morally dubious to suggest that history might just trump justice in this or similar cases: "Fiat justitia et pereat historia." [Let justice be done though history perish.]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think the political issue that is probably worrying a lot of British and Irish politicians tonight, is whether Adams' conviction and imprisonment would unhinge the peace deal. I don't know, but I suspect that in the first place, McGuinness would feel compelled to resign as deputy First Minister, thus probably unraveling power-sharing. That would lead to direct rule again, the resurgence of ultras in the Republican movement, who would go around saying, we would told you that the Brits would shit on us, and so on.
I bet a lot of politicians are just hoping it all goes away.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
He's 'innocent'. As Ian Paisley Snr. said of the PIRA, they might be murderers, but they're not liars.
That doesn't mean he doesn't know who did it. Has he denied that?
The truth will out. Jean McConville's family will talk, I suspect that will clear Adams. Which all looks hyper-Machiavellian.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, they obviously have some ex-IRA people saying that Adams ordered the killing. Whether that's enough evidence, I wouldn't know.
I am sure that already the ultra-Republicans are touring their pubs and clubs, saying, see, we told you not to trust the peace deal with the stinking Brits. Will people listen to them? Not yet.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Even by the Guardian's standards, this article is very silly. If there is credible evidence that Adams has committed an offence, there should be a public trial in the ordinary course to determine if he is im fact guilty.
[URL fixed -Gwai]
[ 03. May 2014, 02:44: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
This problem is compounded by the extreme partiality of many American Catholic academic institutions whose own records of fundrasing and platforming for the IRA leadership in the 70s onward put them in a dubious position to be conducting non-partisan historical programmes of research.
"Many American Catholic academic institutions" raised money for the IRA in the 70s?
Do you have a citation for this?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Even by the Guardian's standards, this article is very silly. If there is credible evidence that Adams has committed an offence, there should be a public trial in the ordinary course to determine if he is im fact guilty.
[URL fixed -Gwai]
I think it's an accurate article. Sometimes, you have to choose between peace and justice.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think it's an accurate article. Sometimes, you have to choose between peace and justice.
Nobody has to like that choice though. The idea of those murdering bastards getting away with their atrocities makes me want to vomit. It's enough to make me wish there was a Hell, just so that I could imagine them getting what they so richly deserve at some point.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think it's an accurate article. Sometimes, you have to choose between peace and justice.
Nobody has to like that choice though. The idea of those murdering bastards getting away with their atrocities makes me want to vomit. It's enough to make me wish there was a Hell, just so that I could imagine them getting what they so richly deserve at some point.
No, it's a distasteful choice, but a common enough one, after civil wars or insurgencies. Often the only way to get people to lay down arms, is some kind of immunity and amnesty.
But the politics of it seem clear enough. Adams and McGuinness were able to pull the majority of the Republican movement into the Good Friday agreement.
If you jail Adams, and McGuinness resigns, then the Republican movement is decapitated. I guess some people would rejoice at that, but there would be a vacuum, into which all the ultras might pour. Who would take that risk?
But I think many people in Ireland believe that there is not the evidence to bring a prosecution. Dolours Price was saying years ago, that she drove the car that picked up Mrs McConville, yet nothing happened.
[ 03. May 2014, 08:20: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC Not & Ship's Biohazard:
That doesn't mean he doesn't know who did it.
This is quite a complex issue. Both Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness, as IRA commanders in Belfast and Londonderry respectively, have dirty hands. McGuiness has been accused of firing the first shots on Bloody Sunday, and of personally, as Chief of the IRA army council, sanctioning the Warrington bomb in which two children died. Adams rose from being a sniper in West Belfast to the top job. So we can be sure that, if he didn't personally murder Jean McConville, he certainly knows who did. But I think, given the testimony, probably inadmissible, of the late hunger striker Brendan Hughes, and the current allegation by McConvilles daughter Helen McKendry, he has a case to answer, or he wouldn't have just spent his third night in a police cell.
Given the vile nature of the crime, the "execution" of a widowed mother of ten, shot in the head, anyone with any decency would want to see justice done. But this is far from being a simple criminal matter. The saying "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" might be considered. As may the fact that many former terrorists in the world subsequently become statesmen. That could even be said of Nelson Mandela. Certainly of Menachem Begin. The fact is that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness entered politics and delivered on the peace process, which has led to a much better, though not pefect, situation in Northern Ireland than at any other time since the partition in 1922. After many years of fighting for a united Ireland, they have accepted that it can only come about through a democratic process.
We also need to consider the potential for a shit storm, a term that's been used a few times recently on the Ship. Martin McGuiness has warned of the "negative and destructive" agenda in which "British state forces" get immunity. Well I seriously disagree with that. There's a world of difference between soldiers doing their duty and the cold blooded murder of a 37 year old woman who dared to speak out against the brutality of Adams' control of the Belfast streets in that era. I described it as a complex issue because I shudder at the thought of Northers Irenad sliding back towards the horrors of the Troubles, and we have much to thank Gerry Adams for, with his part in bringing them to an end. But I have no sympathy for the evils of Irish Republican terrorism. They were never a disenfrachised people in the 20th century, and should have persued their political objectives in the ballot box not in the brutality of murder.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Even by the Guardian's standards, this article is very silly. If there is credible evidence that Adams has committed an offence, there should be a public trial in the ordinary course to determine if he is im fact guilty.
[URL fixed -Gwai]
I disagree completely.
Personally, I've never liked Adams and if he did do this, the idea of him being convicted for it does have the main advantage of being just.
However that is not the most important consideration here.
You may not like Freedland's conclusions but it is a well reasoned piece about the other factors involved.
I wonder if the Peace Process is secure enough to survive Adams conviction and imprisonment - it might be, it might not. How you balance that against the family's right to know the truth and see the prosecution of the perpetrators of this awful crime is a very difficult question but please God let us not return to low-level civil war in Ireland!
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
That's the trouble - it's a gamble. Who is willing to gamble away the peace process? Obviously, the 'Gotcha' brigade are.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Who is willing to gamble away the peace process? Obviously, the 'Gotcha' brigade are.
Only a mad person would be happy to let the NI 'Troubles' be resumed in all their former glory.
So I'm guessing that this little dilemma NI has presented itself with , IE. *send adams down and the whole place goes up*, will probably lead to the amnesty, already talked about, whereby all 'Troubles' related crimes prior to a certain date will be made null and void .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Or the case will be dropped. I'm not sure where they are going to get the evidence, since Dolours Price was telling all and sundry that she was the driver of the car that took Mrs McConville over the border, where she was shot. Yet nothing was done, although Price named Adams as the man who ordered the killing.
It's possible that an ex-IRA member is willing to testify against Adams. I suppose it's possible that Adams would serve his two years, and everything would carry on as normal.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I think it's one thing for convicted murderers to be released from prison as part of a peace deal but quite another thing not to even prosecute a suspected murderer as part of a peace deal.
While the former has occurred as part of the Good Friday process, has the latter?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I only ever read final paragraphs in newspaper articles and then read up if intrigued. The final one was enough. It's right. There can be NO justice beyond truth. Truth, fully, freely, openly expressed, reconciles. That IS justice. And no it's not enough because the dead don't come back yet. Because the decades of gnawing loss, of falling down one's interior elevator shaft barely attenuate going forward.
Only in the Resurrection are ALL things restituted.
I say, legalistically, he is innocent of this crime until PROVEN guilty. Even though, in the spirit of the law, he CERTAINLY has blood on his hands. He is blood guilty, complicit in murder, just as Nelson Mandela was.
Just as I am.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I think it's one thing for convicted murderers to be released from prison as part of a peace deal but quite another thing not to even prosecute a suspected murderer as part of a peace deal.
While the former has occurred as part of the Good Friday process, has the latter?
I don't think the police had any choice, if they became aware of evidence pertaining to this case. Not prosecuting would inflame the loyalists, for one thing.
I'm just amazed that some people seem to be rejoicing at the prospect of Adams in jail, when that could imperil the peace deal.
But I think they will drop the case, through lack of evidence, unless they have a nailed on witness, who will name Adams. But plenty of people have done that in Ireland in the past.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Quetzacotal:
quote:
The British and Irish govts right now are on their knees praying that this case collapses. They can't face the prospect of McGuinness resigning, which he might well do. Then you have direct rule again, and who knows what.
The British government may be praying for one thing, but for the Irish government it's like Christmas come early. There won't be direct rule. They will replace McGuinness if he resigns, and Mary Lou MacDonald will take up the baton of leadership and she's more scary than both of them.
I suspect that the released interviews are a ruse. No IRA member is going to give evidence to anyone that might lead to a conviction for a crime that they haven't already paid for. These are conniving and seriously cunning people who are far from stupid. The only way they would release information regarding McGuinness and Adams is if they had some sort of vendetta; i.e. they felt that both had 'sold out' and therefore deserved to be betrayed. I suspect Adams is sitting stumm and carefully plotting his next political manoeuvre while they keep throwing the same questions at him.
Jean McConville's daughter, Helen has already indicated that she will take a civil case against Adams if he is not convicted. Presumably that would mean presenting evidence that he is/was part of the IRA high command chain. Getting that alone would be a nail in the coffin of his career. I only hope she remains alive long enough to see it. Michael on the other hand, has indicated many times before that he knows at least some of the killers by name, if not all of them; but he is too frightened to speak.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
I'd assumed the term 'Irish Government' referred to the Dublin rather than NI. I don't think the tapes are a ruse. The anger and dissatisfaction in some Republican quarters regarding the 'sell out' of the peace process is well known, and goes deep linking Irish politics with Marxist beliefs in some instances.
[ 03. May 2014, 10:38: Message edited by: Yonatan ]
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
If just one person would submit to Christ.
We haven't suffered enough yet.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan:
I'd assumed the term 'Irish Government' referred to the Dublin rather than NI. I don't think the tapes are a ruse. The anger and dissatisfaction in some Republican quarters regarding the 'sell out' of the peace process is well known, and goes deep linking Irish politics with Marxist beliefs in some instances.
No, I don't think they're a ruse. But it's likely that they contain hearsay stuff - I heard that the big man told X to kill Y. That kind of stuff will not get past any judge, I don't think.
If they have a witness who was physically present when orders were given, then Adams will be done. But is that likely?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan:
I'd assumed the term 'Irish Government' referred to the Dublin rather than NI. I don't think the tapes are a ruse. The anger and dissatisfaction in some Republican quarters regarding the 'sell out' of the peace process is well known, and goes deep linking Irish politics with Marxist beliefs in some instances.
No, I don't think they're a ruse. But it's likely that they contain hearsay stuff - I heard that the big man told X to kill Y. That kind of stuff will not get past any judge, I don't think.
Ifpeople have a witness who was physically present when orders were given, then Adams will be done. But is that likely?
The two IRA members who made the statements on tape had strong links to Adams. Hughes stayed with Adams after his release from prison following his hunger strike.
The problem is that both parties are hostile witnesses considering Adams to be a sell out. There is also the problem that they are both dead and can't be cross examined.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Yonatan:
quote:
I'd assumed the term 'Irish Government' referred to the Dublin rather than NI.
So did I.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
... Presumably that would mean presenting evidence that he is/was part of the IRA high command chain. Getting that alone would be a nail in the coffin of his career. ...
Hardly. Everyone's always assumed that, but it doesn't seem to have ever done his electoral chances any harm.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Not in NI, no. But in the South he has been asked this repeatedly and consistently denied it. If he were to admit it or for it to be proven, then he would be made out to be an untrustworthy liar, which would seriously damage SF's move into Southern politics.
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
Wouldn't people in the Republic have the same suspicions as those in GB and NI? If seems strange that his repeated denials would be taken at face value there and not elsewhere.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Yam-pk
Shipmate
# 12791
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Posted
A truth and reconciliation (ho-ho!) commission is the long term answer to all of these issues, but hell will freeze over before the British Government agrees to something like that.
As for Adams, this man is a obnoxious crypto-fascist, if the police find enough evidence to prosecute him, tough luck.
Posts: 472 | From: The Grim North | Registered: Jul 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan:
I'd assumed the term 'Irish Government' referred to the Dublin rather than NI. I don't think the tapes are a ruse. The anger and dissatisfaction in some Republican quarters regarding the 'sell out' of the peace process is well known, and goes deep linking Irish politics with Marxist beliefs in some instances.
No, I don't think they're a ruse. But it's likely that they contain hearsay stuff - I heard that the big man told X to kill Y. That kind of stuff will not get past any judge, I don't think.
Ifpeople have a witness who was physically present when orders were given, then Adams will be done. But is that likely?
The two IRA members who made the statements on tape had strong links to Adams. Hughes stayed with Adams after his release from prison following his hunger strike.
The problem is that both parties are hostile witnesses considering Adams to be a sell out. There is also the problem that they are both dead and can't be cross examined.
Yes, no judge will convict based on dead men's tales. So they must have a live one, or maybe an immunity deal with someone. I think he'll walk.
On Adams' popularity, there are already conspiracy theories that his arrest is designed to puncture that. Sinn Fein paranoia, I suppose.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
On both sides, it's long been a case that their boys are bloodthirsty terrorists and murderers, whereas our boys, they might occasionally go a bit too far, but h**l, they're still our boys.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Ronald Binge
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# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan:
Wouldn't people in the Republic have the same suspicions as those in GB and NI? If seems strange that his repeated denials would be taken at face value there and not elsewhere.
Well, yes. Sinn Féin supporters have been particularly brittle over this, but they are far from being the majority in the Republic. Sometimes being a small c-conservative country can be a good thing.
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Ronald Binge
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# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yam-pk:
A truth and reconciliation (ho-ho!) commission is the long term answer to all of these issues, but hell will freeze over before the British Government agrees to something like that.
As for Adams, this man is a obnoxious crypto-fascist, if the police find enough evidence to prosecute him, tough luck.
A Truth and Reconciliation Commission is badly needed with respect to the Northern Ireland Troubles, but given the murkiness of same, it isn't really in the interests of any of the combatants even though it is in the wider interest of the peoples of these islands IMHO.
No-one, with the exception of the SDLP or Alliance Parties, and including the British and Irish authorities will come away from that process with their reputations untarnished. A dirty, filthy and mucky war perpetuated for the worst of reasons.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
The trouble with a Truth and Reconciliation Commission would be that everyone would want the all the others to take part without having to admit anything themselves. 'It's good and necessary for everyone except me'.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
So Gerry Adams (Sinn Fein leader) just got arrested for a murder in the Troubles in the 70's. I don't know much about all the details or the history, but those who do: Could this cause a flare up of tensions in Northern Ireland or are we closer to the point where crimes of the Troubles can be prosecuted without people getting all upset about which side is being prosecuted? The main source of controversy among those who still take sides seems to be that plenty of other people with (allegedly) blood on their hands are not being prosecuted. Thoughts?
A part of most peace processes are that somethings are better left in the past for the sake of peace, though of course it's entitely readonable for the relatives if the murder victim to want to know the truth. Still, I think the bigger picture needs to be looked at.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Yonatan:
quote:
Wouldn't people in the Republic have the same suspicions as those in GB and NI?
You have to remember that there is a whole voting generation that didn't grow up with the troubles and are incredibly ignorant of it too. Some of them even believe the propaganda that Gerry Adams was and is Northern Ireland's peacemaker and if you mention John Hume, they say, 'John who?'.
The biased testimony of dead men will be thrown out of court in a flash and I truly don't believe they told students in Boston what everyone else wanted to know just because they said it would be treated confidentially and was for a college project. I suspect it's something else that's driving this.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Dave W.
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# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
The biased testimony of dead men will be thrown out of court in a flash and I truly don't believe they told students in Boston what everyone else wanted to know just because they said it would be treated confidentially and was for a college project.
The Belfast Project has nothing to do with college students. It was apparently started in 2000 by an Irish journalist, an historian (and former Provo volunteer), and Boston College librarian. Here's a magazine article describing its origins and unraveling.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ronald Binge
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# 9002
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Posted
Here is a discussion on the Northern Ireland politics and current affairs site Slugger O'Toole.
Slugger O'Toole on Jean McConville
May I draw your attention to the comments by "Jagdip" that point up the mentality of hardcore Republicans on the whole issue. Thank God where I live in Ireland I can vote to prevent that way of thinking gaining power here. Basically, the individual is always subordinate to the "community" is the best and most charitable way I can summarize it.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Hardly makes a difference. Like an Irish journalist knows how to spell confidentiality, let alone knows what it means.
The whole concept of a 'she said, he said' document being used to arrest someone is daft. I hope to God they have hard and fast evidence. Partly because I'd love to see him hang.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Hardly makes a difference. Like an Irish journalist knows how to spell confidentiality, let alone knows what it means.
The whole concept of a 'she said, he said' document being used to arrest someone is daft. I hope to God they have hard and fast evidence. Partly because I'd love to see him hang.
I can't see this as anything other than the Police asking Jarry 1. Were you in the 'Ra, answer no, and 2. Any comment on this transcript? answer no. In the meantime Martin McGuiness and the Shinnerbots can jump up and down about "political policing" or some other nonsense and the Shinners can add this to a heap of imaginary grievances.
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
May I draw your attention to the comments by "Jagdip" that point up the mentality of hardcore Republicans on the whole issue.
A bit of a tangent, but I was amused by this comment by 'Jagdip':
quote:
Incongruous to think of the ermine-laced “and what do you do?” [by the Queen] alongside the throttling of some pheasant’s neck?
For land-owning aristocrats, I'd say those two activities aren't incongruous at all...
[ 03. May 2014, 20:48: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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