Ship of Fools: Regulation of Sunday schools

Thread: Regulation of Sunday schools Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :

It's about time that we stopped leaving this to churches, don't you think?

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Churches in the UK generally have very short Sunday school sessions, not comparable to the amount of time Muslim children spend at madrassas or indeed the amount of time Jewish children spend at shul. In the church I was at for the longest time, the children were out of the service for 20 minutes during the sermon, and that was it. Generally all Sunday schools run for a shorter time than the main service.

However I would be for denominations (or maybe for the CoE, strands within the denomination) drawing up their own codes of conduct.

Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Churches in the UK generally have very short Sunday school sessions, not comparable to the amount of time Muslim children spend at madrassas or indeed the amount of time Jewish children spend at shul.

If they're too short to be effective, maybe we should give up on them entirely?

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Churches in the UK generally have very short Sunday school sessions, not comparable to the amount of time Muslim children spend at madrassas or indeed the amount of time Jewish children spend at shul.
If they're too short to be effective, maybe we should give up on them entirely?

But I didn't say they were too short to be effective? I don't think that's the case.

Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :

So don't they need regulation?

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

I don't think they need regulation in the way madrassas are perhaps going to be, according to the article. I do think a code of conduct for within the denomination in question is a good thing to have anyway.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
It's about time that we stopped leaving this to churches, don't you think?

The proposals look to me like another bit of Islamophobia in action.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
The proposals look to me like another bit of Islamophobia in action.

On the one hand, what is being described is a voluntary code of conduct. On the other hand, I suspect we know all about "voluntary".

If anyone has a convincing argument as to why a madrassah should be subject to more regulation than a children's orchestra, for example, the I'd like to hear it.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

posted by Dafyd

quote:
The proposals look to me like another bit of Islamophobia in action.

I don't think so, bearing in mind that we're they're talking about places that some children go to 7 days a week, and for long periods of time.

As far back as 2011 it was reported that more than 300 cases of corporal punishment in madrassas had been reported to police in only 3 years: bearing in mind that the reports were from muslim parents it was thought the problem was likely to be greater.

Madrassas in private homes are completely unregulated, whereas the humblest church Sunday School helper (at least in the CofE) has to go through safeguarding checks and CRB. Yes, some madrassas are regulated but the present scheme is voluntary.

For goodness sake, every member of my choir has had to go through checks, notwithstanding that they arrive for services and rehearsals after the children and leave before them and have separate vestries.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

As far back as 2011 it was reported that more than 300 cases of corporal punishment in madrassas had been reported to police in only 3 years: bearing in mind that the reports were from muslim parents it was thought the problem was likely to be greater.

And corporal punishment in private schools, including in madrassahs, has been illegal in England and Wales since 1999.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
It's about time that we stopped leaving this to churches, don't you think?

By 'Sunday schools' do you mean 'madrases' and by 'churches' do you mean 'mosques'? Otherwise, I'm not sure how the article relates to your argument?

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

That article lists three provisions in the code:

1. Police checks for teachers
2. No corporal punishment
3. No 'extremism' (real quotes, not scare quotes)

Point 1 and 2 are the law of the land anyway. I guess Point 3 has the potential for double standards if there are views that can legitimately be called 'extremist', which can be heard in both madrassas and Sunday schools, but which are only outlawed in madrassas. Quite honestly I don't think this is the case.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

In the C of E, D & B (formerly CRB) checks are already mandatory.

Corporal punishment is illegal.

Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
So don't they need regulation?

What do you mean by "regulation"? That just means 'organisation and rules'. How can we possibly decide whether we think organising and making rules for religious teaching to children is a good idea unless we know what sort of organisation and rules you have in mind?

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In the C of E, D & B (formerly CRB) checks are already mandatory.

I assume they are for other denominations too, they are certainly carried in our NFI church and we have the usual child safety officers.

Posted by aunt jane (# 10139) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Dafyd
quote:
The proposals look to me like another bit of Islamophobia in action.
Madrassas in private homes are completely unregulated, whereas the humblest church Sunday School helper (at least in the CofE) has to go through safeguarding checks and CRB. Yes, some madrassas are regulated but the present scheme is voluntary

In practice, any teaching, religious, Christian, Muslim or otherwise that happens in private homes on a voluntary basis is going to be difficult to regulate, report to the police or legislate about. Trying to portray this as a Muslim versus Christian issue is not helpful.

Posted by aunt jane (# 10139) on :

I spend more time worrying about children who receive no Christian guidance at all than I do about badly - run schools for other faiths.
I have to admit I've never understood the point of "Sunday schools" that just "teach" something with a vaguely Biblical theme. Children work hard enough five days per week in real schools without having to spend Sunday morning learning how to make a doll that's supposed to resemble Noah. Children need to be encouraged to develop a personal relationship with God through prayer, and some Sunday schools don't bother with this at all, but just seem like a strange way to stop noisy children disturbing what is perceived as the real church.

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