Ship of Fools: What is life?

Thread: What is life? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=027408

Posted by Curious (# 93) on :

Odd question - but I've been thinking a lot recently about what it is gives life meaning/significance...
Does it involve other people? God? Belief in self?
Thoughts to aid my thinking invited....

Curious

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

At its most basic, life is change. Without change occurring, we have no perception of anything happening at all.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

Meaning in the sense of purpose is given to life by the motivation to serve God and other people. The motivation is derived from the love of God and of other people, as this love fosters desire and energises.

The love of God and of others grows through faith in and relationship with Christ.

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

Other people. Being part of a family and a community.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

In terms of what makes people happy, a sense or meaning or purpose is known to be important.

But people derive meaning from many things, for some people that is faith, for many it is their work role or parenthood.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

An interesting OP, as my meditation group sometimes uses 'what is life?' as a koan to focus on. There is no particular 'answer', except that people become vividly aware of the life going on now, and really open up to it. So it is this, and it is you and me and it is love.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

simple answer: Living.

I suspect some of us will have to answer in the post-life interview, questions about simple pleasures we avoided enjoying. I don't think we are supposed to hurt and suffer. I think we're supposed to alleviate and remedy it in ourselves and others whenever possible. Most of the other complicated stuff will take of itself.

Recommend: pat the dog and the cat, greet others, drink something hot or cold, plan supper. Stuff like that.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Life itself is about change ( I was thinking about this too ). Change is sometimes good, sometimes bad, but always necessary.

Lifes meaning is a far more complex thing. I think there are two things involved in giving live meaning:

1. Having a dream, an aim or an intention. What are you wanting to do? It doesn't matter whether this is reasonable, realistic or not, or whether you achieve it. It just means that you have something to drive towards.

2. Bringing heaven to those we meet and engage with. That is, making a positive difference to those we meet and engage with.

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

Life is the infinitesimally brief flickering moment of our existence in an infinitely vast nothingness, and is therefore infinitely special. Living well is to appreciate this and act accordingly towards others in the same boat.

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
An interesting OP, as my meditation group sometimes uses 'what is life?' as a koan to focus on. There is no particular 'answer', except that people become vividly aware of the life going on now, and really open up to it. So it is this, and it is you and me and it is love.

At which point the meditation group spontaneously disbands and lives rather than meditating upon it?

At which point I spontaneously disband myself from SoF (for a while) and go to the allotment.

Have a good day!

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
An interesting OP, as my meditation group sometimes uses 'what is life?' as a koan to focus on. There is no particular 'answer', except that people become vividly aware of the life going on now, and really open up to it. So it is this, and it is you and me and it is love.
At which point the meditation group spontaneously disbands and lives rather than meditating upon it?

At which point I spontaneously disband myself from SoF (for a while) and go to the allotment.

Have a good day!

Well, no, because the meditation is also part of life. It's also a very surprising question, as it is always revealing new things. But I think allotmenting is a very nice part of life.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
At its most basic, life is change. Without change occurring, we have no perception of anything happening at all.

I think that idea came from Heraclitus.

But there was an opposing point of view too: a one Parmenidies who believed life was only really one thing - being itself. Solitary, undifferentiated and unchanging.

The two represent early poles in Greek philosophical thinking.

Personally I skew to Parminidies.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curious:
Odd question - but I've been thinking a lot recently about what it is gives life meaning/significance...
Does it involve other people? God? Belief in self?
Thoughts to aid my thinking invited....

Curious

Life is a gift from God who created you.

Think about the alternative: non-existence.

As to what gives it meaning?

1) To be what you were created to be: fully human (very Aristotle). It's all about you.

and that, IMV has something of

2) Self transcendence (it's not all about you)

I reckon it's a balance of enjoying the gift of existence to its fullest potential, while remembering and helping others to do the same.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

On Parmenides

That's rather like the Buddhist idea, emptiness is form, and form is emptiness. If you grasp at either one, you are a fool.

[ 11. June 2014, 11:11: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

[Confused]

I don't generally like Buddhist ideas: too life denying. Too much escape from reality via detachment.

Detachment is not a Christian idea at all - quite the reverse.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

I don't generally like Buddhist ideas: too life denying. Too much escape from reality via detachment.

Detachment is not a Christian idea at all - quite the reverse.

That's not my experience. It was through Zen that I overcame my detachment from life.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

So I'm wrong to say Buddhism advocates detachment?

Regardless: your story sounds interesting. I'd like to hear it. [Smile]

[ 11. June 2014, 11:33: Message edited by: Evensong ]

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Evensong

There are many schools of Buddhism, and some do teach about non-attachment, but generally they mean with reference to desire and hatred, which many Buddhists see as causing suffering, as they are forms of clinging.

Another way of seeing this is about the ego. But then I think many religions advocate not following that; since it's like being chained to a maniac.

Anyway, I would say that it's through dropping the ego, that one becomes immersed in life itself, and one can see others more clearly, and treat them well.

However, other versions are available.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

I'm with you on the ego bit. Totally.

Christ is example par excellence of that.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Yes, I think there are many interesting connections between Christianity and Buddhism, and one day, if I can get the energy up, I might do a thread on it, as I have spent a lot of time pondering this. People like Meister Eckhart and Angelus Silesius are very buddhistic.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

On Heraclitus vs Parmenidies - the end of the universe, heat death, is primarily one where nothing every happens or changes. At that point there is no life, there is nothing, because there is no change.

Which would support the Heraclitus approach, that (at the least) change is vital to life. A lack of change indicates a lack of life.

Not that I don't think there might be an interesting idea to explore about "eternal life" being non-corporeal existence in a heat-dead universe. But that is just something I find interesting to explore and contemplate.

Posted by pimple (# 10635) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by Curious:
Odd question - but I've been thinking a lot recently about what it is gives life meaning/significance...
Does it involve other people? God? Belief in self?
Thoughts to aid my thinking invited....

Curious
Life is a gift from God who created you.

Think about the alternative: non-existence.

As to what gives it meaning?

1) To be what you were created to be: fully human (very Aristotle). It's all about you.

and that, IMV has something of

2) Self transcendence (it's not all about you)

I reckon it's a balance of enjoying the gift of existence to its fullest potential, while remembering and helping others to do the same.

I've been thinking about the alternative. Why is non-existence the alternative? Non-existence is where I come from - except in the sense that I was made from stuff that wasn't, then, me. And it is to non-existence that I shall return - except for the fact that nothing is detroyed or wasted. And since I am more than the summ of my parts, some of thebad things I've thought and done may linger on. I hope some of the good will survive and prosper and disperse and be of some use. I'm pretty sure I'm in my last decade. It's a bit late to hurry up and finish my homework - and there's not much mileage in worrying about the consequences. I had enough of that nonsesnse at boarding school, thank you very much. God? A waqste of time now, I think. I don't even understand basic calculus.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

I'll tell you this much: it's over before you know it.

Posted by Candide (# 15755) on :

Several people have mentioned change, which I certainly support.

But it also involves building a framework, in which that change can be interpreted as positive or negative. Change in itself has no value, it gains value through the interpretation of it.

(The framework might change too, of course. As a person changes, so does the framework that inspired change in the first place).

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
I've been thinking about the alternative. Why is non-existence the alternative? Non-existence is where I come from - except in the sense that I was made from stuff that wasn't, then, me. And it is to non-existence that I shall return - except for the fact that nothing is detroyed or wasted. And since I am more than the summ of my parts, some of thebad things I've thought and done may linger on. I hope some of the good will survive and prosper and disperse and be of some use. I'm pretty sure I'm in my last decade. It's a bit late to hurry up and finish my homework - and there's not much mileage in worrying about the consequences. I had enough of that nonsesnse at boarding school, thank you very much. God? A waqste of time now, I think. I don't even understand basic calculus.

Physical non-existence may be where you came from, except that the seed was sown and grown and seeded from the beginning. Perhaps as it was physically, so it was spiritually?

Moses wasn't called until he was eighty afaik.
The physical ministry of Jesus only lasted for 3 years.

This life has potential until our very last breath. If we can do nothing else physically, we can still pray.

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Anyway, I would say that it's through dropping the ego, that one becomes immersed in life itself, and one can see others more clearly, and treat them well.

I always saw Buddhist concentration on Nirvana as a sort of selfishness: you avoiding rebirth (actually rebirth is no big deal: it's re-getting old, re-getting sick, re-dying that's no fun). But if reincarnation happens, we don't generally remember past lives so we're seeking enlightenment on behalf of those who would come after us but would have have no 'felt' personal connection with us. Which makes it an incredibly altruistic religion. Does that make sense?

Posted by jrw (# 18045) on :

As far as this life is concerned, the only really meaningful things we can do are to sow seeds of various kinds. Hopefully they will be good seeds. Hopefully these will grow into something that will live on in some form or other after we're gone and produce seeds of their own. We may not get any credit for it. We may be completely forgotten. Maybe what we sow will in some way carry over into the next world.

Posted by IconiumBound (# 754) on :

Very scientifically,life is the ability to take in nourishment and to reproduce. But obviously, this thread is about what is done with life once begun and sustained. Certainly we are more capable than an an amoeba and can do more than eat ant reproduce.

The question should be what can we do with the life we have?

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

Change? I'm not so sure of that. The more things change, the more they are the same. Whether we speak of baby boomer's boomerang children or the post Napoleonic war children who never left home. Or the generation in the 1890s who thought they discovered sex, until it was really discovered in the 1960s, only to be really really discovered in the 21 century age of internet porn. Or exploitation of land and environs with the consequences for life, whether in the ancient middle east which formerly had forests, Easter Island or the Alberta tar-oil sands.

We are born, we live, we die. The middle bit is where we should to live. This moment and a moment past and future, no more.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Life is a constant battle against entropy.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Stricly speaking, if you are going to contribute, it ought to be to cry "Eurydice !! Eurydice !!" desparingly to the heavens.

I'll get my coat ....

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

That's blatant stereotyping, that is. You make one mistake and that's all anyone remembers about you for thousands of years.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Anyway, I would say that it's through dropping the ego, that one becomes immersed in life itself, and one can see others more clearly, and treat them well.
I always saw Buddhist concentration on Nirvana as a sort of selfishness: you avoiding rebirth (actually rebirth is no big deal: it's re-getting old, re-getting sick, re-dying that's no fun). But if reincarnation happens, we don't generally remember past lives so we're seeking enlightenment on behalf of those who would come after us but would have have no 'felt' personal connection with us. Which makes it an incredibly altruistic religion. Does that make sense?

There are some wonderful stories about compassion in Buddhism - for example, the bodhisattva of compassion, who vows to stay to help the suffering of people, and rescue them from samsara. In one version, he is given a thousand arms, with which to help people, and there are some amazing statues of a thousand armed Avalokitesvara. But there are many versions.

Reincarnation leaves me cold, except in the sense that everything is an expression of everything else, but there is a curious relationship between emptiness and compassion. In this sense, emptiness means that there is nothing inherent in any thing, since all things are interconnected and indivisible. Hence, I am That, whether it be a worm or a flea, and I reach out to myself in the worm.

You could also say that here the ego is annihilated, yet also is reborn again and again, and dies again and again. Even altruism is finally seen as redundant. So it goes.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Meaning in the sense of purpose is given to life by the motivation to serve God and other people. The motivation is derived from the love of God and of other people, as this love fosters desire and energises.

Beautifully put. Thank you!

Life is about service, and therefore about love.

Love, and therefore happiness, is something received from God. And it is received according to what is going on with us, according to what we are doing and thinking, and therefore according to our function, activity, and the life of service that we are involved in.

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
You could also say that here the ego is annihilated, yet also is reborn again and again, and dies again and again. Even altruism is finally seen as redundant. So it goes.

I like that. I frequently say "So it goes" about all sorts of things much to the annoyance of those who think there is always something you can do about everything. orfeo says "Life is a constant battle against entropy" but why fight the big battle you can't win when there are small ones you could (albeit victory is always temporary).

"So it goes" is the motto of the Tralfamadoreans in various Vonnegut novels (as I'm sure you know) who can see the future and so already know what is going to happen. They seem to be "from hope and fear set free" which also might make a good Buddhist adage.

Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :

Life is pain (princess).

(Well, someone had to say it, it may as well be me)

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
You could also say that here the ego is annihilated, yet also is reborn again and again, and dies again and again. Even altruism is finally seen as redundant. So it goes.
I like that. I frequently say "So it goes" about all sorts of things much to the annoyance of those who think there is always something you can do about everything. orfeo says "Life is a constant battle against entropy" but why fight the big battle you can't win when there are small ones you could (albeit victory is always temporary).

"So it goes" is the motto of the Tralfamadoreans in various Vonnegut novels (as I'm sure you know) who can see the future and so already know what is going to happen. They seem to be "from hope and fear set free" which also might make a good Buddhist adage.

Very interesting point about 'there is always something to be done'. I sometimes misquote Lenin, in his pamphlet 'What is to be done?', by saying, 'there is nothing to be done', which I suppose annoys some people. It doesn't actually refer to passivity, but everything is going on anyway, but the ego has a narcissistic habit in thinking that it can make a difference.

The old joke about guilt is that its positive pay-off is in thinking that you caused something.

My old dead Sufi friend used to ask the interesting question, 'what is it like not trying?', which used to reduce us to hysterics, as it's quite hard to not try, without trying to. But of course we do (not try), when we stop being so self-conscious. Hence, hit the target without aiming - a Zen idea. Quite hard to not-achieve!

The most extreme version of this that I know comes from the British guru, Tony Parsons (not the novelist), who says that nothing has ever happened. Well ...

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I sometimes misquote Lenin, in his pamphlet 'What is to be done?', by saying, 'there is nothing to be done', which I suppose annoys some people. It doesn't actually refer to passivity, but everything is going on anyway, but the ego has a narcissistic habit in thinking that it can make a difference.

I couldn't disagree more.

I think life is about doing, about motivation and about enjoying making small differences.

People make small differences to my life every day and I am grateful to them. I hope I manage to make someone's life a little better in some way every day too.

It's not about ego imo - it's about enjoyment.

I'm about to become a puppy walker for Guide Dogs, and I'm enjoying the preparations enormously. But I'm also pleased that I'll be doing something which will greatly benefit someone 12 months down the line.

What's wrong with being motivated to 'do'? It's what gets me up in the mornings for sure.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Boogie

But if it's not about ego, then you agree with me.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0