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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Are the OT "bad guys" saved?
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Cain, King Saul, and Job's friends, are known as the "bad characters of the Bible." Has the Church or anyone considered them beyond the reach of saving grace?
I know that orthodoxy believes that the OT Patriarchs were redeemed retroactively by the Christ Event. Does the Christ Event also apply to the "bad guys" of the Hebrew Bible as well?
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Given that Christian doctrines of salvation have never depended on whether one is 'good' or 'bad', then if there is any offer of salvation open to OT people it must be open to both 'good' OT people and 'bad' OT people.
Whether any particular 'good' or 'bad' person in the OT is in fact saved is a matter between them and God as far as I'm concerned.
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I know that orthodoxy believes that the OT Patriarchs were redeemed retroactively by the Christ Event.
How on earth is someone "saved retro-actively"?
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a theological scrapbook
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I was always taught the expression "saved by anticipation"...
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I know that orthodoxy believes that the OT Patriarchs were redeemed retroactively by the Christ Event.
How on earth is someone "saved retro-actively"?
I would suggest that it is a matter of perspective. The redemptive qualities of Christ's death and resurrection are not restricted by the time in which they took place.
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
I don't understand. What are the redemptive qualities of Christ's death and resurrection if you never knew anything about him?
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Does the Christ Event also apply to the "bad guys" of the Hebrew Bible as well?
Definitely (subject to standard premises about Christ Event), how it applies is another matter.
Practically I'd be surprised if it wasn't related to how it applies afterwards I.E if vanilla Universalism is true now it's true then, if some kind of super-exclusivism is true, then things look quite bad for many of them*. Otherwise it would either feel unfair or a limitation of God's power, however as both those things apply to the Christ Event as it applies in Common Era, a lot of things are going to be surprising.
*say all the ones who belonged to Israel, not to the one true kingdom of Judea.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't understand. What are the redemptive qualities of Christ's death and resurrection if you never knew anything about him?
Well, if your theology is that way inclined...
The efficacy of salvation by faith depends not upon the faith itself but upon God's grace. So if you're a PSA-ist or satisfactionist etc etc, you can argue that God knew in advance that Jesus would perform the necessary legal arrangements. Knowing this, God anticipated Jesus' death by declaring that whatever faith the patriarchs had in God was sufficient, or whatever faith the patriarchs had in God's promises of a messiah or redeemer was sufficient, or (dispensationalism) that the patriarchs' adherence to the law to the best of their ability was sufficient.
An Abelardian subjectivist could argue that God's promises of a messiah were sufficient to have the effects.
The traditional Christian belief is the harrowing of Hell: that Jesus after the crucifixion but before the resurrection, descended to the dead, preached to the souls in Hell, broke down the gates of Hell, and led all the righteous dead out.
A more deificationist or participationist theology would argue that the grace made available by Jesus' death is not limited in time and so the effects could be transferred backwards. (This is the hardest position to reconcile with any restriction of salvation to Christians in the present.) Roman Catholics have to hold this in order to explain how Mary could have been free from sin before Jesus' birth.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't understand. What are the redemptive qualities of Christ's death and resurrection if you never knew anything about him?
The same as they are today.
If salvation depends on knowing about Jesus, then Abraham is in hell.
Jesus actions enabled salvation. This was what enabled Abraham to be saved, and enabled all of the OT people to be saved.
I believe that people like Jobs friends learnt through their experience, and were saved.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't understand. What are the redemptive qualities of Christ's death and resurrection if you never knew anything about him?
Jesus isn't Tinkerbell, he doesn't depend on our belief. Christ's resurrection broke the power of death and hell, not for some but for all.
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't understand. What are the redemptive qualities of Christ's death and resurrection if you never knew anything about him?
Christ descended into Hades and preached to the spirits there. Of course, it doesn't tells us precisely to whom he preached, to the righteous only or to the righteous and unrighteous. Maybe it was to both and it's certainly possible that should any of the unrighteous heard and believed that Christ opened the way for them also.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Thanks Dafydd and Schroedinger for the explanations.
I admit to still being completely baffled. It doesn't make any sense. I'm not even sure where to start unpicking it.
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't understand. What are the redemptive qualities of Christ's death and resurrection if you never knew anything about him?
Well, if your theology is that way inclined...
The efficacy of salvation by faith depends not upon the faith itself but upon God's grace. So if you're a PSA-ist or satisfactionist etc etc, you can argue that God knew in advance that Jesus would perform the necessary legal arrangements. Knowing this, God anticipated Jesus' death by declaring that whatever faith the patriarchs had in God was sufficient, or whatever faith the patriarchs had in God's promises of a messiah or redeemer was sufficient, or (dispensationalism) that the patriarchs' adherence to the law to the best of their ability was sufficient.
An Abelardian subjectivist could argue that God's promises of a messiah were sufficient to have the effects.
The traditional Christian belief is the harrowing of Hell: that Jesus after the crucifixion but before the resurrection, descended to the dead, preached to the souls in Hell, broke down the gates of Hell, and led all the righteous dead out.
A more deificationist or participationist theology would argue that the grace made available by Jesus' death is not limited in time and so the effects could be transferred backwards. (This is the hardest position to reconcile with any restriction of salvation to Christians in the present.) Roman Catholics have to hold this in order to explain how Mary could have been free from sin before Jesus' birth.
The whole idea seems to make completely irrelevant Jesus' earthly ministry and the New Testament idea that it is faith in Christ that provides salvation.
It also seems to deny that he brought anything new with him in any chronological sense (which is totally contrary to experience and what the New Testament says).
It essentially seems to imply universal salvation regardless of whether you knew Jesus or not.
Totally weird.
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't understand. What are the redemptive qualities of Christ's death and resurrection if you never knew anything about him?
The same as they are today
Why on earth do we bother telling people about the gospel and learning about the gospel then?
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
If salvation depends on knowing about Jesus, then Abraham is in hell.
There was no such thing as Hell in Abraham's day. You died and that was it.
And salvation does depend on knowing Jesus (at least Christian salvation). That's precisely what the New Testament teaches.
This idea seems to me to be totally unscriptural.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't understand. What are the redemptive qualities of Christ's death and resurrection if you never knew anything about him?
Jesus isn't Tinkerbell, he doesn't depend on our belief. Christ's resurrection broke the power of death and hell, not for some but for all.
So I don't need to bother being a Christian then? I don't need to bother to follow the Way, the Truth and the Life?
Everybody is free from the power of sin and death and Hell right now?
The mind boggles
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Evensong
You need to look up the "harrowing of Hell" which is extra-Biblical but there is also indications in gospels when the dead rise at the point of Jesus' death (Matthew 27:51-53). I look at it as story a reality that is difficult for us to take in. There is perhaps more evidence for Moses and Elijah being in heaven (see the Transfiguration account).
It would easily be possible using the OT sacrificial understanding to argued that Jesus' death could only be retrospectively active. Nowhere does it suggest in the OT that atonement act preemptively. You do not make your sacrifice to God and then go and blow the relationship. We do not today think a "Let's be friends" before an argument is good enough to mean that the argument has no effect on the relationship.
The problem is really down to assuming God experience time the way we do. As somebody who has a mild grasp of relativity I am afraid such ideas just do not work within the wider Universe and are only true within the small space-time zone that we inhabit. If we could alter our speed substantially we would experience time differently. In other words Time travel is possible but only in one direction at present. So I think it is only sensible to stop projecting onto God our view of time.
There has however been for a long time in Christianity a totally different understanding of how God relates to time. This is that God's act of creation is not to light the fuse of the big bang and watch it play out, but his role is to create the whole of time. This moment is as much part of God's creative activity as what we see as the start of the Universe. If this is the case then I would suggest you might view God's experience of time as something akin to a bright bead on the string where the string is time. There is not difference between God's experience of the future than the past. However, God's experience of the present is different, more conditional, more negotiated.
Now if this is the case, how God's act of salvation works is conceptually different. It is not a mental frame we can easily inhabit. What I do know is the Church through all ages has held that the OT Saints were not outside heaven. How would God be just if he made Salvation dependent on being born after a specific date? Is not that a bigger blasphemy against God's justice than Predestinarianism?
Jengie
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't understand. What are the redemptive qualities of Christ's death and resurrection if you never knew anything about him?
Christ descended into Hades and preached to the spirits there. Of course, it doesn't tells us precisely to whom he preached, to the righteous only or to the righteous and unrighteous. Maybe it was to both and it's certainly possible that should any of the unrighteous heard and believed that Christ opened the way for them also.
The harrowing of hell seems to me to be a different kettle of fish from the idea of retrojectively imputing righteousness.
You're mixing your chronological with your synchronic.
I think I heard Mudfro say Noah was only righteous because Christ's work made him so.
Well that's just ridiculous. Why wasn't everyone else righteous too then? What made Noah different?
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Eh? What do you mean mixing my chronology? Christ descended into Hades, preached to the spirits there, had Satan bound and opened the way to heaven, the first to be led out being Adam and Eve as depicted in our iconography.
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong There was no such thing as Hell in Abraham's day. You died and that was it.
Actually, that's still the situation today....
But, buying into the mythos for a moment, where does that leave Enoch and Elijah?
Is it your position that the Sadducees were right up to the Incarnation, whereupon at some point humanity acquires immortal souls (don't you just hate it when you miss the cutoff point?) that we may the more conveniently be saved or damned?
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It's really no different to dealing with the question of people who had no opportunity to hear about Jesus even after his earthly ministry. Unless you're a Mormon, there are many centuries of people in the America who had no contact with civilisations that had heard of Jesus. Same goes for Australia and the Pacific. To a lesser extent that also applies to much of Africa and eastern Asia.
Many people aren't comfortable with the notion that the limitations of Jesus' earthly ministry in time and space mean that salvation, too, is limited in time and space. Frankly because it makes God look a bit arbitrary and capricious.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Now if this is the case, how God's act of salvation works is conceptually different. It is not a mental frame we can easily inhabit. What I do know is the Church through all ages has held that the OT Saints were not outside heaven. How would God be just if he made Salvation dependent on being born after a specific date? Is not that a bigger blasphemy against God's justice than Predestinarianism?
I don't have a problem with the idea that Jesus has somehow reached those who have already died (or fallen asleep as Paul usually calls it) and that they will be included in the general resurrection in the age to come.
1 Thessalonians talks about something like that.
What I don't understand is how on earth is one supposed to exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the pharisees if you've never known Jesus.
matthew 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
How would God be just if he made Salvation dependent on being born after a specific date? Is not that a bigger blasphemy against God's justice than Predestinarianism?
If "salvation" is only about life after death, then why wouldn't God just give EVERYONE life eternal?
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's really no different to dealing with the question of people who had no opportunity to hear about Jesus even after his earthly ministry. Unless you're a Mormon, there are many centuries of people in the America who had no contact with civilisations that had heard of Jesus. Same goes for Australia and the Pacific. To a lesser extent that also applies to much of Africa and eastern Asia.
Many people aren't comfortable with the notion that the limitations of Jesus' earthly ministry in time and space mean that salvation, too, is limited in time and space. Frankly because it makes God look a bit arbitrary and capricious.
But this starts to open out, doesn't it? What about people who have heard about Jesus, but are not interested? That describes most of my family, most of whom are dead now. I find it hard to believe that they are in hell, but I suppose for many Christians there has to be such a demarcation, or Christianity becomes pointless. Reward and punishment, I guess.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Well the answer given by the writer of the letter to the Hebrews is "Through Faith" (Hebrews 11). You are thinking of "faith" too much as holding specific tenets and not as based on response to God.
Jengie
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Arethosemyfeet ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
It's got NOWT ter do wi' us.
We are so insanely grandiosely egotistical about OUR salvation.
If we aren't saved NOW, if our lives aren't redeemed NOW and measured in charity NOW, then we aren't saved in any meaningful sense.
And we aren't much are we? Living as if we were immortal. Spending ourselves without limit for others. How much have I spent of myself today so far? Yesterday?
Anyone?
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
I think salvation depends upon how we respond to the grace which God freely gives us. If we respond as well as we are able to within the limits of our knowledge and ability then we enter into the fruits of the redemption won for us by Jesus. Since God is not bound by time or space He can offer those fruits simultaneously to all points and places of human history.
The benefit of having an explicit knowledge of the Christian faith is that it enables us, through a personal relationship with Jesus, to enter into the life of eternity here while we are in the life of time as a prelude and anticipation of entering it more fully, uninterruptedly and forever after the end of our mortal journey.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
I think my head has just exploded.
But I think the problem here is what everyone means by the term salvation.
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Well the answer given by the writer of the letter to the Hebrews is "Through Faith" (Hebrews 11). You are thinking of "faith" too much as holding specific tenets and not as based on response to God.
Jengie
Faith in any kind of God is okay then? And outorkings of this faith mean nothing? Faith without works is dead.
Again. Very unscriptural.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Given that Christian doctrines of salvation have never depended on whether one is 'good' or 'bad',
Too many assumptions also happening on this thread.
The parable of sheep and goats in Matthew says judgement certainly does depend on actions.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You're getting there.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Eh? What do you mean mixing my chronology? Christ descended into Hades, preached to the spirits there, had Satan bound and opened the way to heaven, the first to be led out being Adam and Eve as depicted in our iconography.
Sorry. I'm getting confused. As I said above I'm not fussed with the harrowing of hell because a response is required.
The only trouble with the idea is why righteous people in OT, say Abraham and Noah are in Hell in the first place.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Of course they're not. Nobody is. It's just a story we make up. Just like Jesus did. Let alone Peter.
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Eh? What do you mean mixing my chronology? Christ descended into Hades, preached to the spirits there, had Satan bound and opened the way to heaven, the first to be led out being Adam and Eve as depicted in our iconography.
Sorry. I'm getting confused. As I said above I'm not fussed with the harrowing of hell because a response is required.
The only trouble with the idea is why righteous people in OT, say Abraham and Noah are in Hell in the first place.
First point, fairy nuff. Second point, the term hell, hades or whatever you want to call it, used in reference with the Harrowing of Hell is not the place of eternal punishment described in the Apocalypse but rather the grave, the realm of the dead. Before the resurrection this is where all souls stayed, both the righteous and unrighteous.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And Peter 'knew' that how?
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And Peter 'knew' that how?
Because Jesus told him or it was revealed to him by the Holy Spirit?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You I like Ad Orientem. Lucky you!! And yes, those are the obvious answers and I'd have accepted both, especially the latter.
Not that the traditional interpretation makes sense any way: the One who incarnated popped down to the demons in jail at the time of Noah. That minimally makes sense. Odd as it is.
But now neither. Unless Jesus remembered doing that like He remembered banging them up in the first place and shared that with Peter for some odd reason. Which I very much doubt.
Peter made it up in good faith. Just like Jesus did generally.
[ 05. July 2014, 10:47: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong There was no such thing as Hell in Abraham's day. You died and that was it.
Actually, that's still the situation today....
But, buying into the mythos for a moment, where does that leave Enoch and Elijah?
Is it your position that the Sadducees were right up to the Incarnation, whereupon at some point humanity acquires immortal souls (don't you just hate it when you miss the cutoff point?) that we may the more conveniently be saved or damned?
Very good questions. Ones that I have asked myself and tried to nut out on other threads to no seeming avail. No one wants to play.
When and how does the OT notion of Sheol turn into the NT idea of eternal punishment of the wicked in Hell?
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Second point, the term hell, hades or whatever you want to call it, used in reference with the Harrowing of Hell is not the place of eternal punishment described in the Apocalypse but rather the grave, the realm of the dead. Before the resurrection this is where all souls stayed, both the righteous and unrighteous.
Sounds more like Sheol. See my questions above. Do you want to play?
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
You I like Ad Orientem. Lucky you!! And yes, those are the obvious answers and I'd have accepted both, especially the latter.
Not that the traditional interpretation makes sense any way: the One who incarnated popped down to the demons in jail at the time of Noah. That minimally makes sense. Odd as it is.
But now neither. Unless Jesus remembered doing that like He remembered banging them up in the first place and shared that with Peter for some odd reason. Which I very much doubt.
Peter made it up in good faith. Just like Jesus did generally.
Whatever. Suffice it to say I don't share your your understanding. I don't believe Christ or Peter "made it up".
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Enoch was killed by Methuselah. Elijah moved counties in Kansas.
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong There was no such thing as Hell in Abraham's day. You died and that was it.
Actually, that's still the situation today....
But, buying into the mythos for a moment, where does that leave Enoch and Elijah?
Is it your position that the Sadducees were right up to the Incarnation, whereupon at some point humanity acquires immortal souls (don't you just hate it when you miss the cutoff point?) that we may the more conveniently be saved or damned?
Very good questions. Ones that I have asked myself and tried to nut out on other threads to no seeming avail. No one wants to play.
When and how does the OT notion of Sheol turn into the NT idea of eternal punishment of the wicked in Hell?
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Second point, the term hell, hades or whatever you want to call it, used in reference with the Harrowing of Hell is not the place of eternal punishment described in the Apocalypse but rather the grave, the realm of the dead. Before the resurrection this is where all souls stayed, both the righteous and unrighteous.
Sounds more like Sheol. See my questions above. Do you want to play?
I don't think Sheol (Greek Hades or English Hell or Grave) "turned" into a place of eternal punishment. They are two different things.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What's wrong with making it up? The arc of progressive revelation is toward less making it up, that's just evolution for you.
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
What's wrong with making it up? The arc of progressive revelation is toward less making it up, that's just evolution for you.
Because I don't see revelation being compatible with making it up.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So how much of the OT is revelation and how much is made up? Us making it up IS revelation. It's a four thousand year dialectic we're having with ourselves in the Light.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
]I don't think Sheol (Greek Hades or English Hell or Grave) "turned" into a place of eternal punishment. They are two different things.
I think so too.
But why then, do we have both?
Was eternal punishment in Hell only an option with the advent of Christ?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I don't think Sheol (Greek Hades or English Hell or Grave) "turned" into a place of eternal punishment. They are two different things.
Okay.
Why are they two different things?
Is the realm of the dead different in different times?
Because the place (or "state" if you prefer) of eternal punishment is something which happens after the general resurrection as described in the Apocalypse.
Sheol didn't change, except that since the Harrowing of Hell the righteous are no longer bound there, for Christ by his death and resurrection has openned up the way to heaven for them and they now live and reign with him a thousand years.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It gelled in His words from the culture which had been going that way for centuries.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So that reign ended a thousand years ago?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
So how much of the OT is revelation and how much is made up? Us making it up IS revelation. It's a four thousand year dialectic we're having with ourselves in the Light.
We shall just have to agree to disagree on that one.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
So that reign ended a thousand years ago?
The "thousand years" denotes the period of time between Christ's first and second advent.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I don't think Sheol (Greek Hades or English Hell or Grave) "turned" into a place of eternal punishment. They are two different things.
Okay.
Why are they two different things?
Is the realm of the dead different in different times?
Because the place (or "state" if you prefer) of eternal punishment is something which happens after the general resurrection as described in the Apocalypse.
Sheol didn't change, except that since the Harrowing of Hell the righteous are no longer bound there, for Christ by his death and resurrection has openned up the way to heaven for them and they now live and reign with him a thousand years.
Sorry. I edited my post but you responded before that.
So I agree that the advent of Christ opened heaven for them, but did it not also open Hell as eternal punishment for them?
Why is this?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
I suppose in a way it did. As to why, that's a more difficult question to answer which probably deserves more thought first, though sticking my neck out here maybe this is the mystery the Apostle writes of in his epistle to the Romans, that God having foreknowledge of such things, that was the lot ordained for the unrighteous from eternity. I don't know.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Two thoughts feed into this, based on 'revelation' as given in the Bible. The first was God's word for David given to the prophet Nathan (thereby giving it the authenticity of revelation) : 'I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you.' (2 Sam. 7:15)
The second are the words of Jesus to the Sadducees (Mark 12:26): 'He is God not of the dead, but God of the living; you are quite wrong.'
If God's Kingdom is founded on God's love, surely anyone who has lost that love cannot live within it?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
All VERY vague isn't it? Very human. Iron Age speculation. And the strangely definite interpretation of it.
Has anyone found it Raptor Eye?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
All VERY vague isn't it? Very human. Iron Age speculation. And the strangely definite interpretation of it.
Has anyone found it Raptor Eye?
The more we discover, the less we know Martin. God will always be greater than our understanding. It's for us to enjoy our time in the thick cloud, knowing that God is with us and straining to catch glimpses of him.
Will those who are determined to steer clear or to go in the opposite direction eventually arrive at the same wonderful place as those who strain? I hope so. In fact, they're the ones who are missing out, they will eventually be eating the pigs' pods. I for one will be more than happy to celebrate with all who come to the feast.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's really no different to dealing with the question of people who had no opportunity to hear about Jesus even after his earthly ministry. Unless you're a Mormon, there are many centuries of people in the America who had no contact with civilisations that had heard of Jesus. Same goes for Australia and the Pacific. To a lesser extent that also applies to much of Africa and eastern Asia.
Modern day people with very severe mental retardation are in the same position. I do not believe that the God of justice and mercy would deny them salvation because of their disability.
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon
You are thinking of "faith" too much as holding specific tenets and not as based on response to God.
This is an important point. If I say, "I have faith in you.", I am not saying I think you exist. I am saying that I trust you to behave in a certain way.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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