|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: The Lord's Prayer
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
'Thy will be done' has become my constant companion prayer, said many times inwardly and outwardly each day. It helps me as life's blows rain down on me, as a reminder that the human will so often gets in the way of God's will, so that people like me are hurt.
I rarely say the whole of the Lord's prayer in daily private devotions though. This tends to be contemplative with long silences interspersed with praise, thanksgiving and intercessions.
Someone recently suggested that although the Lord's prayer is a complete prayer, it's not given the place it should have according to Jesus in our daily prayers. It tends to be kept for church services, in which it perhaps is said by rote rather than from the heart.
How and when do you say the Lord's prayer?
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
|
Posted
I say the Lord's Prayer silently to myself when centering down at the start of each Quaker meeting for worship.
It helps to focus my mind on God.
--------------------
"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
|
Posted
This may be way off - but I have been praying 'forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us' a lot lately.
The word which struck me is 'as', which in my mind I have often ingested as 'if'. 'As' means something additional - as well as reminding us of the parable of the unforgiving servant, it also says 'let forgiveness between you and us, be worked out in the same way as forgiveness between the me and the one who sins against me'.
This makes forgiveness of God towards me feel more understandable - if Christ would have it that its pattern would look like forgiveness between men, because I understand that. It probably requires repentance on the part of he who sinned against me - or at least, I am likely to usually find it odd to go spraying around unrequited forgiveness on those who have wronged me, who see nothing wrong in what they have done. It gives me a model with which I am familiar.
Now someone is going to pop up and tell me that in the Greek that 'if/as' distinction is all b*llocks. Well, I have been finding it helpful.
MiM
--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
This may be way off - but I have been praying 'forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us' a lot lately. The word which struck me is 'as', which in my mind I have often ingested as 'if'.
I don't know about the Greek, but the Latin has sicut et, which could better be rendered in English as "just as". This implies that God will forgive us in the same manner that we forgive others.
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
The Greek word is ὡς (hOs), which Louw-Nida describe as a "relatively weak [marker] of a relationship between events or states." It's commonly used in similes, including by Matthew, for instance in Matt 3:16 ("he saw the Spirit of God come down as a dove").
Now, it actually can also function as a conjunction meaning 'when,' but that isn't the main usage, and I think your reading is right on.
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
|
Posted
I always suspected there was a point to the internet, and now, I know! Where else would one find such erudition in two posts? ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
(Of course, had you dispatched my hypothesis with equally erudite stabs of rapier-sharp insight, my enthusiasm would have been every bit as warm ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) )
--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
|
Posted
I often say the Lord's Prayer. If I am walking and I want to pray, I find it hard to pray in words in my head, so I focus myself by saying the Lord's Prayer in my head. When it comes to 'forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us' I always add 'And please help me to forgive those who trespass against me', because otherwise it just seems to assume that I do it automatically, and I don't always - I need God's help. I also pray some of the apostle Paul's prayers - they are good prayers, and I need some familiar words if I am praying words inside my head.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I don't know about the Greek, but the Latin has sicut et, which could better be rendered in English as "just as". This implies that God will forgive us in the same manner that we forgive others.
Ah yes, that is what I imagined it meant (although without knowing the Latin or Greek) and it is why I always add 'please help me to forgive those who trespass against me', because it's not a good prayer to pray if I'm not!
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
For some time, my daily devotion consisted of reciting the Nicene Creed and the Lord's Prayer.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
Is it OK then to only forgive someone with conditions attached, eg they must apologise first?
I always thought that it was a good thing to forgive unconditionally, as it was never right to have hurt me in the first place, and the bruise of hurt only hurts me again every time I press it so it's best to let it go - even if the person is unrepentant.
So 'forgive my trespasses' covers all of my sins, whether or not I specifically recall and repent of every single one.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Is it OK then to only forgive someone with conditions attached, eg they must apologise first?
What was said that made you conclude that? I'm not sure how that relates to the 'forgive us our trespasses' discussion. The idea is that we are asking God to forgive us in the same way that we forgive others - which makes us very aware of our need to forgive others, when we ourselves have been forgiven so much. Nothing to do with demanding apologies, as far as I can see.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
Aren't we drifting away from prayer and into forgiveness here? Which is something we discussed a few years back in Purgatory. Can we drift back into prayer, please?
Curiosity killed ....
Kempistry host
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
Apologies, Curiosity killed... What's in our hearts when we pray, whether the Lord's prayer or any other, is surely important.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
Yes, agreed Raptor Eye, what's in your/our hearts is important. But we were beginning to drift into a discussion about forgiveness and what is and isn't forgiveness. That's not within the remit for this board, which is about prayer.
(And any other comments on this should be taken to the Styx - as per normal - thank you.)
Curiosity Killed ...
donning prayer shawl temporarily
[ 24. September 2014, 18:05: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
And to bring this back to the Lord's Prayer, I use the "Thy will be done" line a lot, but as a way to focus me in prayer. My understanding of prayer is to align my will to God's and that line reminds me that I shouldn't be imposing my wishes and desires onto a situation, but praying for the best for everyone - God's will.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
bib
Shipmate
# 13074
|
Posted
I am uncomfortable with praying anything but the traditional Lord's Prayer. Somehow the modernised words don't say the same thing for me. EG I can't equate 'save us from the time of trial' with 'lead us not into temptation' as for me thay have different meanings.
--------------------
"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
I was talking to someone only yesterday who said that 'time of trial' was nearer to the original in translation, and also 'debtors' rather than trespassers. All worth lingering on imv as we pray the prayer.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
|
Posted
One interpretation I have come across is that "deliver us from evil" is asking for protection from the consequences of others' sins, whereas "Lead us not into temptation" is about reducing our sin.
--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
fullgospel
Shipmate
# 18233
|
Posted
I say the Our Father all through the day, every day, both 'on its own', and in the rosary.
I also find various 'lines' or phrases seem to home in on me, and linger, sort of radiating outwards, and the rest of the prayer, goes on hold for a while.
Someone said about 'Thy will be done' while 'the blows of life rain down'. Very good to know. I find one phrase can do or be that. Often a line or word chooses itself (as far as I can see) -or chooses me.
I think thy will be done, is one of the most vital, pressing and as the writer above said (sorry my memory is poor and as far as I know I can't scroll back mid-my comment without losing it).
For me
Thy kingdom come
is particularly one I say and need to feel.
--------------------
on the one hand - self doubt
on the other, the universe that looks through your eyes - your eyes
Posts: 364 | From: Rubovia | Registered: Sep 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
I love the Lord's prayer. I have to deconstruct everything nowadays. Surely we are in ourselves forgiven as much as we are forgiving, whether we know it or not. It has NOTHING to do with Judgement. God is not going to weigh us in His scales. It's about us. My trouble is I CANNOT forgive myself. I try. It's something I have to work on, often MANY times a day. It's been exhausting. I have more head space at times now. For NOT grovelling, NOT cringing before God. For standing naked before Him head UP. But that's not guaranteed.
Does God not forgive me when I can't forgive myself?
Forgiveness, like giving generally, like generosity, is its own reward. There is no quid pro quo with God. We cannot out-give or out-forgive Him. Neither can we limit, prevent His grace.
Lest I sound pukingly pious, on Friday night I received an email from a young, brilliant colleague after a minor technical failure on my part after an immensely long, hard week, his EQ is inversely proportional to his IQ. I was not going to turn up tomorrow without a word. Had nowhere to go with it. HAD to put it at the foot of the cross. Not his feckless offense. My response of total discouragement. It RUINED my evening with my wife. Our Friday evenings are precious.
I'll have to be a big boy about it tomorrow won't I? ![[Smile]](smile.gif) And that will be taken as confirming weakness. Ah well. I do pity him, but he can end my fading underachieving career. Inshallah.
In other words, Thy will be done.
[ 05. October 2014, 22:11: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
CuppaT
Shipmate
# 10523
|
Posted
But it also should be noted that the Prayer says "Thy will be done on earth". That's a whole phrase there that is not individualistic. In fact, the whole prayer is corporate, isn't it? Our Father, Give us, our daily bread, our trespasses (or debts). But, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven". Just as the heavenly hosts and all the saints follow God's plans in heaven, so do we ask his favor that we be enabled the ability to do his will here on earth, together. "Teach us to pray," said the disciples. And so the whole church ever since has prayed it, and always will.
--------------------
Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see that you cannot bear it any longer, draw back a little and have a cup of tea.
~Elder Sophrony
Posts: 919 | From: the edge of the Ozarks | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CuppaT:
In fact, the whole prayer is corporate, isn't it?
But how does this corporate prayer relate to private prayer?
Rather than the standard prayer, based on Matthew's Gospel, I find the simpler version in Luke is better for contemplative prayer: quote:
“Father, hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come.
3 Give us each day our daily bread,[b]
4 and forgive us our sins,
for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And lead us not into temptation.”
I use the longer version when simply praying (or praying simply).
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
I misjudged him and generalized badly. He took responsibility for dealing with a mere mortal. That night too. Where do I go with THAT?! Ah, back to the foot of the cross ...
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Here is a contribution from Latchkey Kid, originally posted in Purgatory:
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
I know there are a few threads about the Lord's Prayer, but I don't think this aspect has been treated.
It occurs in Matthew and Luke
In Matthew it is given as a K.I.S.S (keep It Short and Simple)example to those who might go overboard in praying.
In Luke it is given as Praying 101 to a Lukan church that appeared to need encouragement to pray.
It seems that there are quite a few variants in the manuscripts, so that it may have been adapted as needed to different situations.
The way it is used now seems to me more like a mantra rather than a model for our own prayers. And mostly it is said in a church service, though maybe some of also say it in your private prayers.
What is often used now seems to be collected from the Didache"
quote:
8:2 And do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded in the gospel: Our Father in heaven, holy be your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us enough bread day-by-day. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not bring us to the time of trial, but rescue us from the evil one.
10:5 ....... For Yours is the power and the glory forever.
As the Didache also says in 8:3 Pray this three times each day maybe the "mantra-praying" practice started from those early days.
These days the flavour of many prayers is different. In some circles it is de rigueur to finish a prayer with some form of "in Jesus' name", as though the ability to ask in Jesus' name (authority) means that the phrase must be incorporated for it to be the case.
Do others feel as I do:
a) that these are two modes of praying which are unnecessarily differentiated?
b) that the Lord's Prayer should be used more as an example than a mantra?
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
I'd say if it was being used as a "mantra" (recited) prayer in the Didache, it's very likely the practice goes right back to the beginning of the church. As Jews the early Christians would have been familiar with canned prayers, and very likely added the Our Father to their other prayers.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
|
Posted
It does a bit disconcerting to have it (the Lords prayer) given so close to the extortion against vain repetition.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
|
Posted
mt
you have reminded me that the three times a day in the Didache reflects the Jewish practice of praying three times a day.
Jay-Emm,
I agree that this seems to sit uncomfortably with the admonition against vain repetition.
--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
It does a bit disconcerting to have it (the Lords prayer) given so close to the extortion against vain repetition.
Perhaps reminding us that not all repetition is vain.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
It does a bit disconcerting to have it (the Lords prayer) given so close to the extortion against vain repetition.
Only in Matthew. In Luke, it's given right before the injunction to be persistent in our prayer.
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
It does a bit disconcerting to have it (the Lords prayer) given so close to the extortion against vain repetition.
Only in Matthew. In Luke, it's given right before the injunction to be persistent in our prayer.
In Luke, one of the major themes is the encouragement to continue praying and not give up. I don't see persistence as being the same as repetition.
Personally, Luke is appropriate for me as I struggle with prayer, whereas for others in my church I would like them to take note of Matthew as I get irritated when they repeat their own prayers and the prayers of others during prayer times.
--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
It does a bit disconcerting to have it (the Lords prayer) given so close to the extortion against vain repetition.
Only in Matthew. In Luke, it's given right before the injunction to be persistent in our prayer.
That's useful to know.
I'm not too fussed in practice (firstly, we don't do BCP communion so that only leaves the double use in Evensong, secondly, worst case I play stronger/weaker brother, thirdly I'm not a leader), when I get to wherever it matters if Jesus say 'I said pray "like this"' it will hardly be in my top 10 things I failed to listen too.
But it is a slight uncertainty I have in cases like this where I do get to play (whatever the word is, gatekeeper?) even if only hypothetically.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
