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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The mess at GTS
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
Reports on the Episcoblogosphere indicate that 8 faculty members of the General Theological Seminary, long one of, if not the most, prominent TEC seminary, went on strike this weekend and subsequently were fired (or had their resignations accepted, depending on the source). There are apparently issues between these faculty and the Dean and President.
Does anyone know what is really going on? This is an institution which both has been under financial pressure and which occupies some of the most valuable real estate in NYC. The beginning of the end?
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Thanks for starting this thread, LA Dave. I brought it up in TICTH because I really didn't know where else to put it.
Personally, I think the "beginning of the end" was when they sold off several of their buildings.
This may be the continuation of the end.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
The Living Church isn't always the most unbiased source of information, but the several stories they have posted seem to be an attempt to tell all sides of the situation.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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maleveque
Shipmate
# 132
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Posted
Here is the GTS8's site: Safe Seminary
- Anne L.
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Life isn't all fricasseed frogs and eel pie.
Posts: 1496 | From: Washington, DC or thereabouts | Registered: May 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by maleveque:
Here is the GTS8's site: Safe Seminary
- Anne L.
Thanks! I had just come here to post that. It seems like it will be updated regularly.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Things I think I think about the Michaelmas Massacre at GTS...
One, Dunkle was a poor choice for dean and president. He's only been a priest for 9 years and doesn't appear to have any experience in academia. Rather, prior to seminary, Dunkle was a corporate attorney. His first job upon ordination was as Canon to the Ordinary which is very, very rare. Dean and President of General Seminary appears to be just one stop on his almost Ambrosian path to the episcopacy. Fr. Dunkle represents the church should be run like a corporation faction of TEC. I'm certain he came to General and attempted to impose his vision on the seminary without seeking buy in from faculty, staff, or students.
Two, the Dean probably acted like a jerk towards faculty and students.
Three, the faculty is from the its always 1968 faction of TEC. Their argument appears to be that their claiming that Dunkle is a racist, sexist, homophobic bully who intimidates everybody and makes them feel unsafe is in and of itself sufficient justification for firing Dunkle with no investigation needed. Indeed, it looks to me like they expected the Board of Trustees to intervene and undermine the new dean as soon as they complained. They were always going demonize them for doing less than that.
Four, demands 1,2,and probably 4 are absurd. Why should the faculty get to tell the Board of Trustees who is going to represent the Board of Trustees to discuss conditions of the faculty's continued employment? Also, no seminary faculty as a collective have the kind of power they requested the board give them. With 4, I say probably because my suspicion is this whole situation is in part a power struggle between the new dean/president and the academic dean. I wonder if the academic dean was a candidate for the dean/president job in the first place.
Five, how fast the situation escalated surprised the Board of Trustees. Sisk was a bishop and seminary dean. He fully expected to hear complaints from the faculty about the new dean. As a bishop, he heard complaints from congregations when a new priest wanted to make changes. Rushing into intervene in every parish that complained about a priest would have been madness. Undermining his dean at the first sign of descent would also have been madness.
Six, the Board of Trustees fired the faculty. They didn't resign. Basically, the faculty told the Board of Trustees to choose between them and the dean. The board chose the dean.
Seven, the faculty overplayed their hand. They consulted an attorney and resorted to a strike way too soon. They did what they did because they represent the its always 1968 faction of TEC and that's what they do.
Eight, firing the faculty was foolish. The trustees made a decision that will cause GTS irreparable harm. I'm at a loss as to how so many priests and bishops on the board could be so clueless as to how their actions would be perceived by the wider church.
Nine, the dean thinks he is getting what he wants. No doubt he is chomping at the bit ready to hire a new faculty willing to aid him in remaking General Theological Seminary in his image. Does he think any distinguished Anglican scholars will be lining up to serve as his lap dogs? Is he deluded into thinking that any perspective students given half the chance to choose their own seminary would voluntarily choose to be formed in that chaos? How many bishops will continue to send postulants to GTS? Who is going to contribute large sums of money to General Theological Seminary after this debacle?
Ten, this will end with the courts deciding which side gets to claim a pyrrhic victory. I'm not an attorney. I don't know if the faculty had the legal right to strike. I don't know if trustees had a legal right to fire them. A court will decide. Both sides have unwittingly conspired to destroy the reputation of General Theological Seminary for the foreseeable future. What happens if the faculty wins a lawsuit? Do they really think the trustees will just grant them everything they wanted and everything will go back to the way it was before the new dean? What happens if the trustees win the lawsuit? Well, see number 9 above.
This is horribly sad. I pray for the seminarians caught in the middle. All too often seminarians end up as pawns in other people's struggles for power and influence. GTS has always been the High Church/Anglo-Catholic seminary. As an Anglo-Catholic, I'm disappointed that this happened. As an Episcopal priest, I can only shake my head in disgust because I know that most of the people who wield power in the national church belong to one of these two factions fighting it out in New York.
A plague on both their houses
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
GTS has always been the High Church/Anglo-Catholic seminary. As an Anglo-Catholic, I'm disappointed that this happened.
There's always Nashotah house....
Seriously, there's still an Anglo-Catholic seminary in operation and thriving, and they do take postulants from TEC, both men and women. They even invited the Presiding Bishop to preach at an evensong. Given Nashotah's presence as an Anglo-Catholic seminary, I think that GTS can be shut down, and the students can transfer to other seminaries. The School of Theology at Sewanee is also high-church if not Anglo-Catholic, and more progressive than Nashotah, and could take in the GTS students who aren't Nashotah types.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Very few TEC bishops send seminarians to Nashotah. Sewanee's churchmanship is called Old Southern High Church. However, Sewanee is only high church when compared to Virginia.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
The GTS website lists 11 faculty members, and they've just fired 8 of them. How are they even holding classes right now?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Don't know if they are. Letter from the trustees mentioned using the resources available to them in New York. I assume that means GTS will hire adjunct faculty.
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Most academic institutions have considerably more adjunct staff than tenured staff these days (my youngest daughter is one such).
I've no idea if that applies here, but if it does it would mean that things may be persuaded to continue for a while at least.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Seminaries don't have as many. New York is a big place. GTS can cobble together a temporary faculty. You would really need the money to walk in the middle of this mess.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Sad. Very sad. Certain echoes of the Wycliffe Hall cause célèbre in the UK.
Trustees nearly always support 'the local Sheriff' at least to begin with, when rumblings about leadership style break out publicly. There seems to be a reluctance to encourage a short spell of 'gardening leave' as a means of creating a cooling off period and time for an urgent independent review. Perhaps Dunkle wasn't the kind of leader who could handle that? Basically, 'I stand by my record; let others assess if the complaints have substance, for the good of the institution' is the action of a confident leader. You only do it of course if the protests are concerted and non-frivolous, not mischievous. The protests don't seem to fall into the frivolous or mischievous category.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Trustees nearly always support 'the local Sheriff' at least to begin with, when rumblings about leadership style break out publicly.
I know nothing about the GTS situation. However I do recall a situation in a British theological college where the Trustees appointed a new Principal to bring about much-needed reform and to raise its profile.
Said Principal did precisely what he'd been asked to do, very energetically. However, in so doing, he rattled some of the "old stagers" rather than "taking them with him"; he also pursued a fund-raising exercise which misfired and (I think) ended up costing more than it raised. On the other hand I believe that some of his reforms ensured the academic integrity of the College which - as I understand - was in danger of losing its degree-granting status.
The net result was that the Trustees go cold feet and withdrew their support from the Principal, most unfairly in my view although he was not always the easiest person to work with! He left the College and went back to pastoral ministry, staying in his church for many years and taking it significantly forward.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Winstonian
Apprentice
# 14801
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Posted
And we wonder why church membership is declining. This sends a terrible message not only about GTS, but about the Episcopal Church in particular and about the Christian church in general. Surely we can do better than this. I can only imagine the letter that the Apostle Paul would write.
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Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!
Posts: 20 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: May 2009
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I know nothing about the GTS situation. However I do recall a situation in a British theological college where the Trustees appointed a new Principal to bring about much-needed reform and to raise its profile...
I've been reading everything I can find on a variety of websites. From what I can tell, the Dean did not upset 8 of the 11 full-time faculty members by bringing about much-needed reform. (But I must say, he has certainly raised the Seminary's profile. Many people are reading about GTS now who never heard of the place a few days ago!)
I don't know the individual in question, and I don't want to get into personal attacks, but if only a few of the comments he is said to have made were actually said (anti-women, racist, homophobic, etc. etc.) by anyone in this sort of leadership position, especially in a church institution, he should be handed his biretta and shown to the door.
I haven't heard if the "resigned" faculty members have been kicked out of their homes. I believe they all have seminary housing. (I did hear that they suddenly lost their gts.edu email addresses, which seems rather petty.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Dunkle seems to have been a mistake. On the one hand, he has a point when he stresses the discontinuity between what seminarians are taught to expect by their professors and what they actually experience in parish life; on the other, he doesn't really seem to have any idea what spiritual formation is. His monkeying with the chapel schedule (e.g. alternating MP and Eucharist rather than having both daily) is absolutely the wrong tack to be taking.
I realize that chapel attendance was made optional long before Dunkle was made dean. That seems like a grave mistake. Not only does it result in clergy who have no clue how to officiate at Morning or Evening Prayer; it also robs them of an essential part of spiritual formation, not just in the nuts and bolts of liturgy but in the practice of the Church's daily prayer.
Although I cautiously support his desire to concentrate on practicalities rather than the pet theories of whatever academics happen to be employed at the seminary, I happen to think that the Wisdom Year idea is only the tip of that iceberg. In the long run, a priest will benefit more from the discipline of the Office than from keeping up on the latest in source criticism--which is not to say that the latter shouldn't be studied, rather that many seminaries have lost sight of the fact that they are vocational institutions.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
You are so right, Fr. Weber, about the upheaval in the prayer-life of the seminary. This, to me, is the most unfortunate part of this that I am afraid will get little play (prayer not being sexy or controversial enough).
And it is true, sadly, what BA says about Nashotah, which is my alma mater and one of my favorite places on earth. Only the most open-minded of bishops will send their seminarians there; it took me months to convince mine. I hope GTS seminarians who are dissatisfied with the current unpleasantness will consider spending a couple of years in beautiful Wisconsin, but that doesn't change the fact that TEC's flagship seminary is currently in serious trouble.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
After General and Nashotah, Church Divinity School of the Pacific would probably be the seminary for the High/Anglo-Catholic. Seminaries fail to teach practical skills. One of the reasons is that few seminary professors have much experience in parish ministry. Seems like retired priests and bishops could take up residents near seminaries and teach classes in practical ministry. And, yes, professors often teach their pet theories as dogma rather than give a broad overview of the subject matter.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
I just heard that their GTS email addresses have been restored.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
I've heard a number of people state that some of the faculty members' demands were impossible and that they therefore overplayed their hand. This strikes me as odd. It's a very normal practice in any negotiation to make a proposal, be offered a counter-proposal, etc. The Executive Committee of the Board (it was not, AFAIU, the full Board who voted to "resign" the faculty) seems to have flipped over the negotiating table and walked out.
Completely bizarre. And here we are, pontificating on about being "prophetic" and whatever else. "Rich white church with awful labor practices stands up for the oppressed..."
(And I say this as someone who deeply loves the TEC and plans to stay here forever.)
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Bostonman: It's a very normal practice in any negotiation to make a proposal, be offered a counter-proposal, etc.
Sometimes I feel we could avoid a lot of conflicts by teaching people to haggle.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
I've heard a number of people state that some of the faculty members' demands were impossible and that they therefore overplayed their hand. This strikes me as odd. It's a very normal practice in any negotiation to make a proposal, be offered a counter-proposal, etc. The Executive Committee of the Board (it was not, AFAIU, the full Board who voted to "resign" the faculty) seems to have flipped over the negotiating table and walked out.
Completely bizarre. And here we are, pontificating on about being "prophetic" and whatever else. "Rich white church with awful labor practices stands up for the oppressed..."
(And I say this as someone who deeply loves the TEC and plans to stay here forever.)
Did the trustees have any obligation to negotiate with them? If not, then the faculty overplayed their hand. The faculty said that all they wanted was a meeting. The Huffington Post reported that all they wanted was a meeting. Turns out the trustees had to accept a bunch of demands before the meeting could even take place. These tactics might be standard practice in labor disputes but telling lies isn't the least bit Christian. And, no, the fact they were advised by their attorney to do that stuff doesn't impress me either. Like I said, a court will now decide who gets to win the pyrrhic victory. I certainly don't care who wins it. I certainly don't think either side is anywhere close to being prophetic.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Dunno, BA. Maybe the "dismissals" were also a tactic? Dismissals can be rescinded, or put in abeyance if there is a genuine desire to sort this out, rather than confront.
There will either be talks, or it's lawyers versus lawyers and no goodwill left. That was one of the lessons of Wycliffe Hall in the UK. And the plaintiffs won the legal battle hands down.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
Personally, I think that the demand for a resumption of the entire round of liturgical services provided for in the 1979 BCP, at least Monday through Friday, was entirely reasonable. There's no way that a seminary should not have enough personnel to do MP, EP, and a simple said Eucharist every weekday. After all, MP and EP can be lead by students.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
There will either be talks, or it's lawyers versus lawyers and no goodwill left. That was one of the lessons of Wycliffe Hall in the UK. And the plaintiffs won the legal battle hands down.
I have the impression that after the conflict was decided, Wycliffe Hall was very greatly diminished.
I think things would have gone much better if the new dean had taken the time to find out what was important to faculty and students. It's quite possible that some of the changes he made which caused an outcry were not that important from his point of view. If he saw the need to change something which was important, he could have explained at length why he was doing this.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
Personally, I think that the demand for a resumption of the entire round of liturgical services provided for in the 1979 BCP, at least Monday through Friday, was entirely reasonable. There's no way that a seminary should not have enough personnel to do MP, EP, and a simple said Eucharist every weekday. After all, MP and EP can be lead by students.
Morning and Evening Prayer not only can be led by students, but it's very good practice for them.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Didn't it take five or six years to sort out the Wycliffe Hall mess? GTS really doesn't have that luxury. I'm not a lawyer. I don't know who has the stronger case. If the you can't fire us we were on strike card doesn't work, then the we have tenure card might. General will lose no matter who wins in court.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Did the trustees have any obligation to negotiate with them?
Legal obligation or moral obligation if they give a damn about the institution they are trustees of when 8/11 faculty are involved?
Even if they don't have the first they have the second. And by behaving the way they have they have undermined any credibility the institution has. It's not the faculty overplaying their hand here.
quote:
These tactics might be standard practice in labor disputes but telling lies isn't the least bit Christian.
If you want to go after liars, go after the people claiming they have resigned. Rather than those who are behaving according to well understood cultural norms. By your standards "fine" is an un-Christian answer to "How are you?" when you aren't fine.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Didn't it take five or six years to sort out the Wycliffe Hall mess? GTS really doesn't have that luxury. I'm not a lawyer. I don't know who has the stronger case. If the you can't fire us we were on strike card doesn't work, then the we have tenure card might. General will lose no matter who wins in court.
Precisely why it should not ever get to court. Heck, we have been given a ministry of reconciliation. Things have come to a pretty pass when ministers can't be reconciled. Moo's right; that's another lesson to be learned from Wycliffe Hall. But what really fanned the flames at Wycliffe Hall debacle, more than the conflict over management style was the summary and legally unfair dismissal of a well respected member of staff, whose major offence appeared to be that she spoke her mind about the simmering difficulties over management style.
And if such behaviour is judged to be so undermining that those who speak out must be put away, at a training college of all places, then I can only repeat some wise words to leadership from Frank Herbert's "Dune" series.
"If you put away from you those who seek to tell you the truth, those who remain will know what you want to hear. I can think of nothing more poisonous than to rot in the stink of your own reflections"
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Having read through the various exchanges that have been posted (that I can find), I'd just make a couple of observations.
1. There is rather obviously a collision of cultures going on here. Culture change in an organization is a really tough nut to crack, and takes years. The new dean seems to have been blissfully unaware of that, so the inevitable happened.
2. There's quite a back catalogue of exchanges to this whole thing. Only tantalizing glimpses and references are available to us as outsiders. Whoever has to sort this out (poor sods) will have to trawl through all of it.
3. The comment that the faculty just asked for a meeting was actually made by someone outside the establishment (on HuffPo). There was far more to it than just that if you read the faculty submission.
4. On the "dismissal accepted" matter - the faculty letter read very much like "either he goes or we go". Whether that counts as an implicit resignation probably depends on local case law precedent. Frankly if someone did that to me (under different circumstances!) I would tend to treat it as a disciplinary matter. Not necessarily of the party making the complaint of course. But in any event it's a VERY high-risk gamble to make, especially if you don't know how the odds are stacked.
5. As Barnabas62 observed, there are definite accusations made by the faculty that need investigation. That's true whatever the outcome is in other directions.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
This article seems to be a pretty good update on what is happening... especially the final sentence: "Late Wednesday, the board's executive committee said they emailed the eight faculty members and offered to meet with them on Oct. 16."
(October 16? Let's hope they don't become the Chelsea Martyrs.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Justinian:
Legal obligation or moral obligation if they give a damn about the institution they are trustees of when 8/11 faculty are involved?
Even if they don't have the first they have the second. And by behaving the way they have they have undermined any credibility the institution has. It's not the faculty overplaying their hand here.
I'd argue the faculty had a moral obligation not to accompany a request for a meeting with a list of demands. The faculty should also care about the institution. Going on strike was damaging to the institution. Now, the faculty will either win their lawsuit and serve at a damaged institution or lose their lawsuit and try to convince another administration to hire them. Yeah, the faculty overplayed their hand. Now, if you had actually read the very long and balanced post I took the time to write, you would know that I also blame the administration.
quote:
originally posted by Justinian:
f you want to go after liars, go after the people claiming they have resigned. Rather than those who are behaving according to well understood cultural norms. By your standards "fine" is an un-Christian answer to "How are you?" when you aren't fine.
I did go after the people who claimed the faculty resigned. Read the post. It is not part of Christian culture to accompany a request for a meeting with a list of demands.
quote:
originally posted by Barnabas62:
"If you put away from you those who seek to tell you the truth, those who remain will know what you want to hear. I can think of nothing more poisonous than to rot in the stink of your own reflections"
The problem though Barnabas is that the faculty did more than speak the truth. They expected the Board of Trustees to act on their accusations without doing a proper investigation. Students at General will one day be new priests in a parish. New priests in parishes often find conflict. Parishioners often write to the bishop wanting the new priest removed. Should the bishop intervene immediately and dissolve the pastoral relationship based on their words? God, I hope not. That would be madness. Again, I don't doubt that Dunkle was a poor choice and never should have been hired. Honestly, I don't know what they were thinking when they hired him. However, once Dunkle was hired, the Board had to give him more support than throwing him under the bus as soon as the faculty complained. That said, Bishop Sisk should have told him not to change the worship schedule in the first year.
quote:
originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
The comment that the faculty just asked for a meeting was actually made by someone outside the establishment (on HuffPo). There was far more to it than just that if you read the faculty submission.
Apparently, the faculty was saying one thing in public while their letter to the Board of Trustees said something very different. One the faculty is quoted in the New York Times as saying the faculty just wanted to be heard. Well, that's obviously not true. Manipulative tactics like that have no place in the Church. Of course, if you are from the run the church like a corporation camp, you can't really complain when you get corporate headaches.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
This article seems to be a pretty good update on what is happening... especially the final sentence: "Late Wednesday, the board's executive committee said they emailed the eight faculty members and offered to meet with them on Oct. 16."
(October 16? Let's hope they don't become the Chelsea Martyrs.)
Tangent/
Oh, for pete's sake, who cares what the PB was wearing? Since the wardrobe of every female in a position of power must be analyzed and commented on, at least give us the relevant information. Clerical collars are clerical collars. Clerical shirts are what is important. Did the PB wear a "bishop's shirt" or not? What was Dunkle wearing?
"Katherine, Katherine, who are you wearing?"
"Whipple"
End tangent
Put the Dean on paid leave while the investigation happens. Go back to having both daily office and daily mass. The faculty goes back to teaching. Wait for the results of the investigation. Hopefully for General Theological Seminary, the investigation finds wrongdoing on the part of the Dean. Then, the seminary can get off with just a severance package for the Dean. Should the investigation favor the Dean then ring the bell on round 2.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
Mindful of Gwai's warning, I'll just say that, if the allegations made are substantiated (they can be found easily enough on the Episcopal discussion and news sites), it'll be a legal and public disaster, both for GTS, and TEC in general. I was shocked, not so much by the content (although it's bad enough), as the context.
This does point to a wider problem in the Anglican communion. As illustrated by its drawn-out seppuku over various Dead Horses, it's just awful at handling conflict. I suspect that's due to its "broad church" ethos, which, far from being a beacon of diversity and respect, is a forced union of irreconcilable theologicial factions, with all the cohesion of the former Yugoslavia. We know how that turned out.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38
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Posted
Byron wrote: quote:
This does point to a wider problem in the Anglican communion. As illustrated by its drawn-out seppuku over various Dead Horses, it's just awful at handling conflict. I suspect that's due to its "broad church" ethos, which, far from being a beacon of diversity and respect, is a forced union of irreconcilable theologicial factions, with all the cohesion of the former Yugoslavia. We know how that turned out.
Much truth in that. However, this is within TEC and doesn't appear to involve irreconcilable theological positions. People are quite capable of bad behaviour without using religion as an excuse.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Byron
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# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Much truth in that. However, this is within TEC and doesn't appear to involve irreconcilable theological positions. People are quite capable of bad behaviour without using religion as an excuse.
True enough, but the same mindset does seem to be at work.
If the alleged comments about race, gender and sexuality had been said in a secular context, or in a Presbyterian or Lutheran institution, I doubt there'd have been months of tortuous "negotiation" and hand-wringing; rather, a swift complaint and investigation.
The faculty seem to've believed they could, somehow, work it out, instead of recognizing that a line had been crossed, and this was now a disciplinary situation. If the allegations stack up, this should never have gotten anywhere near a walkout.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38
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Posted
Yes, if those allegations are true I agree, though of course we've only heard one side so far, and at least there is an investigation into that being undertaken.
But it's difficult to unravel who did what, when and why to contribute to the breakdown from the partial evidence so far. I do have some additional suspicions, but they are not of the type already mentioned and I don't want to contribute to an already tangled situation.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Byron
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Posted
IMO, a major issue is that the faculty framed this wrongly.
Clear and specific allegations of misconduct got thrown in with a wider disagreement over management style. It muddied the water, and lead to a false equivalence, met with a bunch of "both sides are as bad as each other" fence-sitting.
For too long, the faculty seemed to be in denial over what was happening. If the allegations are true (I agree that we shouldn't prejudge them), just as in the wider communion, misconduct was treated as a debate. If it's as reported, I applaud them for their courage in stepping up, but wish, for their sake, they'd seen it differently from the off.
After all the smug "this is why we have bishops" response to the Mars Hill's implosion, its a cruel wakeup call.
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Beeswax Altar
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Posted
Read all of the documents the faculty released, Byron.
The new dean has only been there for 18 months (a much shorter time than Mark Driscoll was at Mars Hill). When faculty made the formal accusations against the Dean, the trustees hired a law firm to investigate the allegations. The faculty replied that they were baffled the Board of Trustees did that because the allegations being investigated were only a minor part of their complaint. Furthermore, the faculty said they wouldn't accept the findings of the investigation anyway.
Talk about feeling unsafe. I can't imagine anybody in a leadership position feeling safe if mere accusations alone can get you fired.
[ 02. October 2014, 20:25: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
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Posted
Does this place not have an HR department ?
Did the trustees not notice mediators had been called in without success ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Byron
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Read all of the documents the faculty released, Byron.
The new dean has only been there for 18 months (a much shorter time than Mark Driscoll was at Mars Hill). When faculty made the formal accusations against the Dean, the trustees hired a law firm to investigate the allegations. The faculty replied that they were baffled the Board of Trustees did that because the allegations being investigated were only a minor part of their complaint. Furthermore, the faculty said they wouldn't accept the findings of the investigation anyway.
Talk about feeling unsafe. I can't imagine anybody in a leadership position feeling safe if mere accusations alone can get you fired.
According to a post on Episcopal Cafe, signed by the "GTS Eight," the faculty have been trying to bring their concerns to the board since last fall, but didn't get anywhere. (Per the request to be careful, I won't link direct, but its titled, "A GTS Trustee reflects on the crisis at the Seminary," dated Sept. 29.)
If what's said there is accurate, it's understandable that they'd be suspicious of the board. Trust, it seems, had well and truly broken down.
A more pressing question is how it ever got to this stage. As several over on the Cafe have noted, it's unclear what the disciplinary procedure is over at GTS. This isn't just about a new dean: that seems to be the catalyst that's brought much wider institutional problems to a head.
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Does this place not have an HR department ?
Did the trustees not notice mediators had been called in without success ?
No, the place does not have an HR department. Episcopal seminaries are very small operations.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38
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Posted
I've just been reading this article in the NYT. Assuming the quotes are correct, it explains quite a lot more about how things got framed as they did (and incidentally confirms my earlier suspicion).
I think the faculty have been very poorly advised. That's a personal opinion of course, not a statement of fact, but I am prepared to back it up. That letter that the faculty sent just has so much wrong with it, it has now wrenched the whole discussion away from the substantive breakdown in management.
What is clear to me is that the faculty really did want to request an urgent meeting with the trustees, they really did want to go on strike (and not resign), etc. etc. I don't think they were being intentionally duplicitous, except insofar as they signed a letter drafted by another, they took on board what it expressed. They shouldn't have done that if it did not express what they intended.
Where to go from here? Whatever else happens, the faculty need to get across their own, unmediated concerns to the trustees. The trustees, having heard them, should agree to disregard the problematic letter, thereby opening the way to rescinding of the understanding of resignation.
Whether the faculty wish to continue with their strike (as is their right) will depend on the outcome of discussions subsequent to the action above. Both sides would be well advised to agree a framework course of action that addresses all the grievances.
Oh, and the faculty should join a proper trade union, not some hastily cobbled-together staff association. Who that might be I have no idea.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
GTS Alumni have made some good suggestions to move things forward:-
- reinstate the faculty, who, in return, end the strike
- get a facilitator in for confidential discussions between faculty and board, backed by a public statement of good faith
- suspend Dunkle's ass while the allegations are investigated (they phrased it slightly differently
![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) - get a chaplin in to pastor the students
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Autenrieth Road
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Posted
To me, this is the most important statement in the NYT article linked by Honest Ron Bacardi two posts up:
quote:
The Rev. Amy Bentley Lamborn, professor of pastoral theology, explained that the faculty members’ lawyer had assured them that being aggressive in their demands was a common negotiating tactic, but in reality, the group just wanted to meet with the board at any time.
And taking a little more slice of what's around it, which equally shows a gambit which went badly wrong:
quote:
It was then that the board decided that the letters amounted to a resignation, though the word resignation was never used. “They kept saying, ‘If you don’t do these things, we can’t keep our position,’ ” Bishop Sisk said. “Well, we thought, ‘We can’t do those things, so you don’t have your position.’ ” On Sept. 30, the board wrote a public letter saying the resignations had been accepted.
The faculty was shocked. “The letter is not a resignation, it is a plea,” said Joshua Davis, a professor of systematic theology. “Please listen to us.” The Rev. Amy Bentley Lamborn, professor of pastoral theology, explained that the faculty members’ lawyer had assured them that being aggressive in their demands was a common negotiating tactic, but in reality, the group just wanted to meet with the board at any time.
They were expecting that a meeting would be promptly scheduled, and that they would be back to teaching by Monday, Dr. Davis said.
But I think this is all the end stages of something which had broken down much earlier in time.
[ 02. October 2014, 22:05: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I am surprised that a seminary would stop having a daily mass as the first formal event of the day, and I don't see what would be achieved by moving it from 8am to 10am - seems somewhat random.
I imagine there maybe some kind of churchmanship logic to saying, let's not have a daily mass - but let's have one at a strange time ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Autenrieth Road
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
- get a facilitator in for confidential discussions between faculty and board, backed by a public statement of good faith
If I were on either side of this debacle, faculty or Board of Trustees, there would need to be a lot of trust-building to take place before I would believe the other side would abide by that confidentiality and not be out on social media at the first sign of something not going their way. Or even before, for a variety of reasons.
I hope that I'm wrong about this and the actual faculty and Board of Trustees are not as cynical as I am.
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Truth
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
- get a facilitator in for confidential discussions between faculty and board, backed by a public statement of good faith
If I were on either side of this debacle, faculty or Board of Trustees, there would need to be a lot of trust-building to take place before I would believe the other side would abide by that confidentiality and not be out on social media at the first sign of something not going their way. Or even before, for a variety of reasons.
I hope that I'm wrong about this and the actual faculty and Board of Trustees are not as cynical as I am.
As they've all retained attorneys, they could get 'em to put all those billable hours to use, and run up some non-disclosure agreements. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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