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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why don't Protestants kneel in Church?
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
OK. A few do. I exclude those who do it for show as did happen in a chari church I used to attend, where people did it will great brio, and would presumably have welcomed a spotlight.
I mean unobtrusive kneeling? Why don't I?
I think we have here an instance where a communal behaviour, once lost, is harder to bring back. For the few months I went to an RC church I did it without any hesitation, simply because everyone did. And when recently we had a joint choral evensong with the local RC Church, you knew who the RC's were.
It's just that when nobody does it, you do feel self conscious. Like I'm being "ever so holy" being the only one who gets out the prayer cushion. And that's my fault, I know.
But at traditional choral evensong, which I greatly enjoy, the Priest does actually say let us KNEEL to confess our sins. Where upon everyone does their imitation of Rodin's The Thinker.
Is it a sign of a problem? Or just that as the membership gets older, the effect of arthritic knees takes over?
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
There can be any number of reasons, some of which you've mentioned. If you've got an elderly congregation, then there will be physical restrictions.
One of the other physical restrictions might just be the space between the rows of seats/pews. In the Elim church I used to go to, there simply wasn't enough room. It was questionable whether we met fire regulations most Sundays given how we had a growing church in a rather dinky building.
If there isn't a group who regularly kneels then who might be the one to do it first?
If you don't have a tradition of kneeling then you're less likely to have those little cushions that you sometimes find in old, conservative Anglican churches. And if you've got a hard floor, then it might put some people off.
Personally, I'm not a kneeler. I am also not a hand raiser, a flag waver, a speaker in tongues or an instrument player. Each may worship in their own way; mine is mostly inwardly, though I will add a hearty bass to the singing.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
OK. A few do. I exclude those who do it for show as did happen in a chari church I used to attend, where people did it will great brio, and would presumably have welcomed a spotlight.
...It's just that when nobody does it, you do feel self conscious. Like I'm being "ever so holy" being the only one who gets out the prayer cushion. And that's my fault, I know.
Asked & answered.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
I would probably change this to 'why don't American [or whatever country you are from] Protestants kneel in Church?' In Norway, kneeling is very common amongst Protestants.
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Katolikken
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I think it's a matter of habit. I'm glad we don't do it. In the Lutheran church I attend in Brazil we already do enough standing up and sitting down as it is.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Because that's what those icky Catholics do.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
This Protestant (and yes I count myself, an Anglican, as a Protestant and do not want to get back into the black hole of a debate that I never knew existed until the Ship) grew up kneeling. Multiple churches.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Actually, in a previous generation, they did!
The Salvation Army, within in living memory, would all kneel to pray, sit to listen and stand to sing.
I think it went out with hats in church (though we kept them a little longer than other Protestant denominations.
I have visited elderly Salvationists and when we came to my pastoral prayer at the end of the visits, they knelt to pray.
Actually we still quaintly sometimes call our prayer meetings a 'knee drill'
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
See, I think that traditionally, Mousethief has it, it's part of a Catholic practice and while many Anglicans do (there is a reason for those weird chunky cushions that hang in pews) it is not part of the Protestant tradition because it's part of a sort of ceremony that Protestants just don't do...
Except for those who do, like the Salvation Army, who actually started to do it on their own because they got it from the Bible the same way the Catholics did in the first place.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
If you don't have a tradition of kneeling then you're less likely to have those little cushions that you sometimes find in old, conservative Anglican churches.
Wait. Only old and (or?) conservative churches have kneelers? News to me. Even the late 60s Protestant chapel at my university had kneelers, as has pretty much every Anglican church I've ever been in (though I'll admit I've spent very little time in hardline evangelical settings).
The Presbyterians out here, on the other hand, are so against kneeling they've designed the pews in such a way that it is physically impossible to kneel. Still not quite used to it!
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
In the CofE thirty years ago, everyone knelt, whether they were high low or broad. I think that unless we have a knee problem, we should do still. The Venite does not say,
'O come let us worship and fall down and sit before the Lord our Maker'. Sitting is sloppy and casual.
"Those little cushions" are called hassocks and were universal. Ladies sewing groups used to crochet designs for them. I agree that it is unreasonable to expect people to kneel if we don't provide them with hassocks to kneel on. But we should, and IMHO there's no excuse for not doing.
[ 11. October 2014, 18:30: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
Sipech:
quote:
There can be any number of reasons, some of which you've mentioned. If you've got an elderly congregation, then there will be physical restrictions.
But most do actually kneel to receive communion. And those that don't are indeed elderly or infirm, but it's only about ten at most, out of a congo of 100+.
I do rather think that physical expression of worship is quite important, and where hassocks are provided, as they are in all the churches I go to, it may be a good idea to use them.
Anyhow, I'll start doing it. Maybe I'll post a kneeling selfie?
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I would say one of the fruits of contemporary British* Evangelicalism is a deep suspicion of formal ritual, and kneeling is seen as an example of this.
(Pace Mousethief I don't think this anti-ritualism, in modern Evangelicalism, is a reaction against Catholicism. I think it is a reaction against the Book of Common Prayer and what is perceived as religion by rote, e.g. rote-learning the catechism as a form of preparation for Confirmation.)
* 'British' because that's what I have personal experience of. I don't how how it is elsewhere.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
To expand on the above. I think there is a sort of Evangelical mythos that goes something like this:
In the Olden Days, services consisted of reading set words from the Prayer Book. You might not believe or even understand them, but you read them anyway, because they were What Was In The Book. You wore a particular set of clothes to church, not because there was any theological reason for it, but because That Was Right And Proper. You sang hymns to organ accompaniment, not because the organ particularly expresses the way you feel about God, but because Only Organ Music Belongs In Church.
Then Contemporary Evangelicalism* came along, and showed people that you can talk to God in your own words, and that God doesn't care what clothes you wear, and you can praise Him just as well on drums and guitar as on the organ. And amidst that change, I think kneeling has come to be seen as part of the Bad Old Ways, and implicitly discouraged.
* I'm not sure what you'd call the movement, which started (I think) around the 1970's. It is clearly different from, but akin to, the Evangelicalism of the 1950's that did define itself against Anglo-Catholicism, and which at one point did threaten to split the Church of England over the use of candles and vestments.
[ 11. October 2014, 21:11: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Tangent: Not just ladies used to make hassocks: I once came across one of ++Fisher's sons- by then a retired GP- making one. (He told me that all of the, I think 5, boys sewed, and all but one kept it up into later life: not having sisters they didn't grow up thinking that some things were 'girls' things' to do. Another point to the credit of an Archbishop whom I am increasingly coming to admire.)
[ 11. October 2014, 21:16: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
Isn't standing the proper posture? Nicaea, canon 20 (if I remember correctly), and all that...
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Isn't standing the proper posture? Nicaea, canon 20 (if I remember correctly), and all that...
All of which to show that all of this is very culturally conditioned, including the stuff we think is "traditional"-- which was once a modern invention.
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I counted the congregation at church this morning and 75% knelt to pray. Those who didn't appeared to be visitors, elderly/disabled and young families. This would seem to be as expected in my Anglican church. However, I have no problem with people who prefer for any reason not to kneel. in fact, my knees are getting a bit past it.
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
and yes I count myself, an Anglican, as a Protestant and do not want to get back into the black hole of a debate that I never knew existed until the Ship
I was about to say something but... well, yes, not the thread for that, LOL.
I'm an Anglican (Episcopalian) and I kneel, but yeah, I'm on the other side of that issue, so I was imagining Baptists not kneeling. I don't know if they do or don't kneel anymore. I kneel at church regardless.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
I don't kneel because it feels like I'm kneeling to the presiders. If the presider kneels and faces the high altar ( or away from the congo) then I'm okay to kneel because then we are collectively kneeling to God.
I don't kneel to receive communion for the same reason. I'll kneel to God but not to people.
I make exceptions for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.
Personally I prefer the tradition of standing to pray.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'll kneel to God but not to people.
I think Christians have been kneeling to monarchs for centuries without too much ado.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I went to choral evensong at Durham Cathedral in the summer and hardly anyone knelt during the prayers. They were very observant on when to stand and sit, however.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't kneel because it feels like I'm kneeling to the presiders. If the presider kneels and faces the high altar ( or away from the congo) then I'm okay to kneel because then we are collectively kneeling to God.
I don't kneel to receive communion for the same reason. I'll kneel to God but not to people.
I make exceptions for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.
Personally I prefer the tradition of standing to pray.
We are nicely inconsistent in kneeling and standing in prayer. Stand for the collect for purity, all the way through the Kyrie, confession, Gloria, collect for the day and in due course the Creed. Then kneel for the prayers of the people and humble access. At our place, most people stand for the Sursum Corda and Great Thanksgiving - one or 2 kneel after the Benedictus. Like a few more, we kneel for the Lords Prayer and until we go forward for communion, where we kneel returning to a kneeling position until the final hymn.
But we have never for a moment thought that we are kneeling to a person, and most definitely not kneeling to a person when we receive the MBS. I don't understand how, given what you have already said, you consider that you can make an exception for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
Everyone should crouch down on their pew and bow their heads like God intended them to.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'll kneel to God but not to people.
I think Christians have been kneeling to monarchs for centuries without too much ado.
This may be part of the problem.
..and not all Christians kneeled without ado. Some even refused to take off their hats in the presence of authority, the blaggards!
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
One of the churches I grew up in had pews and hassocks and much kneeling was done. Today I worship at a pair of churches without pews or hassocks and sitting while praying is the norm. Is it as simple as it went out with the pews? If so, how did people get on with changing their habits when the pews went for firewood or wherever they went?
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
Is it as simple as it went out with the pews?
I have been to several churches that have replaced pews with chairs, and the chairs have had hassocks either hanging from them or on a shelf under them for the use of the person in the row behind.
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Pews, chairs - introduced by the devil to fascilitate the hearing of long boring sermons. That's what I reckon anyway. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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tomsk
Shipmate
# 15370
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Posted
The Heathen Crouch...
I think kneeling is a kind of spiritual discipline. Shows respect/sacrifice. I don't do it 'cos it hurts my knees.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Pews, chairs - introduced by the devil to fascilitate the hearing of long boring sermons. That's what I reckon anyway.
Indeed. What did people do before there were pews?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
Is it as simple as it went out with the pews?
I have been to several churches that have replaced pews with chairs, and the chairs have had hassocks either hanging from them or on a shelf under them for the use of the person in the row behind.
I've even seen chairs where the kneeler for the row behind is attached to the back legs and is hinged to fold out for use.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I forgot to mention that every Salvation Army building - whether a Corps (church), a men's hostel or our International Headquarters - has a mercy seat used quite frequently. We will always kneel in response to a call to prayer. Sometimes in a public building, a place of prayer will be constructed in a shape of a cross
or they will simply utilise a row of chairs at the foot of the stage.
A drum has often been used in open air services
[ 12. October 2014, 10:02: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Sorry, the drum prayer is here but this is sadly no longer very common except in places like Africa.
[ 12. October 2014, 10:04: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't kneel because it feels like I'm kneeling to the presiders. If the presider kneels and faces the high altar ( or away from the congo) then I'm okay to kneel because then we are collectively kneeling to God.
It seems rather petty to deny God the respect you think He deserves, just to protest a key corruption of the modern liturgy. It is highly unlikely that anybody else would assume that your are kneeling before the "presider" rather than God, including the "presider" himself.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't kneel to receive communion for the same reason. I'll kneel to God but not to people.
If you believe in the real presence, then receiving God in body and blood is just about the most opportune moment for kneeling, given that you will never be closer to Him physically. Again, it seems very strange that you would hesitate just because practically speaking a human has to carry God to you and give Him to you. It seems like a complete loss of perspective to me to focus on that.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I make exceptions for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.
That makes no sense whatsoever. What could possibly be different about these days which changes the principles which you have concerning kneeling before God and men? The only possible answer I can come up with is that lots of other people will be kneeling. Thus the true principle behind all of this then seems to be: peer pressure.
That by the way is a completely legitimate principle if couched in terms of community and liturgy. Personally, I don't worry about any of this much, and simply follow the locally "done thing". Thus in some ways I behave rather differently in the ordinary and extraordinary (Tridentine) masses, respectively. Though there is plenty of kneeling in both. Anyway, I see no point in going on about principles of respect for God and man if in the end I'm really simply doing what everybody else is doing. And that just is my intention when attending a communal liturgy (unless the local people do something expressly against the will of the even larger community of the global church).
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Personally I prefer the tradition of standing to pray.
Have you tried this in practice? Or is this just greener grass in the neighbour's garden? The Orthodox who do this seem to drag things out over hours. I reckon it has to be a truly riveting performance up front to not have my thought turn to finding a place for sitting down or leaning against after about 15 minutes...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
But we have never for a moment thought that we are kneeling to a person, and most definitely not kneeling to a person when we receive the MBS.
Understood and accepted. I don't think less or more of people that kneel. Just different theologies.
I remember an evangelical friend of mine lining up next to me to process into the cathedral during a large diocesan service. The instructions from the Precentor were "acknowledge the altar or not, as is your custom". We had to approach in pairs and acknowledge the altar ( or not ) then split to the south and north naves to be seated.
He turned to me and said " Do you worship furniture"? I burst out laughing. He was referring to acknowledging the altar. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) But of course he didn't mean that - just different theologies.
As it turns out, I don't mind worshipping furniture. Symbolises bowing to God to me - so don't worry, I get where you're coming from.
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I don't understand how, given what you have already said, you consider that you can make an exception for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.
Kneeling on those days is a penitential act for me. I recognise I am a sinner and I recognise my fallen humanity contributed to Christ's crucifixion. That overrides my dislike of subservience to people (the presider and crew).
I suppose that dislike is part of the "priesthood of all believers" gig and is important to prots.
As a middle of the road Anglican, I see myself as being part of a church with catholic substance and protestant principles.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I do not worship the furniture either, but I do reverence the table at which the supper He instituted is held. That does not depend upon any particular Eucharistic theology.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
I cross posted with you Ingo, but I think a number of your questions were answered by what I said to Gee D.
I'll pick up a few points however.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't kneel because it feels like I'm kneeling to the presiders. If the presider kneels and faces the high altar ( or away from the congo) then I'm okay to kneel because then we are collectively kneeling to God.
It seems rather petty to deny God the respect you think He deserves, just to protest a key corruption of the modern liturgy.
God knows precisely what is in my heart. Kneeling is relevant only for me, not God. And kneeling CAN be interpreted as subservience to the people.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I make exceptions for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.
That makes no sense whatsoever. What could possibly be different about these days which changes the principles which you have concerning kneeling before God and men? The only possible answer I can come up with is that lots of other people will be kneeling. Thus the true principle behind all of this then seems to be: peer pressure..
I've explained this above but just for the record, the practice at my diocesan Cathedral is about half/half in terms of kneeling or not for communion, about 5% kneel for intercessory prayer ( unless there is an ordination - in which case everyone does during the invocation of the Spirit (Veni Creator) - but the Archbishop kneels too and faces the high altar).
In the local parishes I have been a part of altar rails have been mostly removed so standing for communion is normal.
Our prayer book states worship practises may be changed to suit local practises unless they directly contravene scripture. ( Just saying in terms of what you said about it's okay to do what is locally done as an act of community).
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Personally I prefer the tradition of standing to pray.
Have you tried this in practice? Or is this just greener grass in the neighbour's garden? The Orthodox who do this seem to drag things out over hours. I reckon it has to be a truly riveting performance up front to not have my thought turn to finding a place for sitting down or leaning against after about 15 minutes...
If I'm serving at the sanctuary at the Cathedral, we stand to pray during intercessions. That's primarily what I was referring to.
Others usually sit or kneel. But Anglicans are up and down a lot of the time during our services but certainly not as up as the Orthodox. OTOH, I hear you're allowed to go out for smoke breaks during an Orthodox service because they go for hours.
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a theological scrapbook
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Kneeling on those days is a penitential act for me. I recognise I am a sinner and I recognise my fallen humanity contributed to Christ's crucifixion. That overrides my dislike of subservience to people (the presider and crew).
There's nothing that stops you from kneeling at home in prayer on those days, or indeed on any day, as penitence. You are performing a public act when you do this in Church instead. So at a minimum this is about demonstrating to others that you are penitent, and it is this that you find more important than that others might think that you are subservient to "the presider and crew".
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
As a middle of the road Anglican, I see myself as being part of a church with catholic substance and protestant principles.
Thus the principles of your Anglican church are insubstantial, and her substance is unprincipled. But we already knew that...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Sometimes I feel that I'd like to do something physical to echo what I feel in my heart. Once or twice I've even thought about crossing myself.
We shouldn't be so 'spiritual' so as to think that only what goes on internally is important and that outward action is wrong or irrelevant.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I do not worship the furniture either, but I do reverence the table at which the supper He instituted is held. .
I've never heard that one.
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
That does not depend upon any particular Eucharistic theology.
I think it does. Some people explain acknowledging the altar as referring to bowing to the reserved sacrament (symbolising God).
For me it's simply a sign of acknowledgment that I am entering a holy space: one of God's visible houses where beautiful and powerful things are done together in the name of God.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Kneeling on those days is a penitential act for me. I recognise I am a sinner and I recognise my fallen humanity contributed to Christ's crucifixion. That overrides my dislike of subservience to people (the presider and crew).
There's nothing that stops you from kneeling at home in prayer on those days, or indeed on any day, as penitence.
Yes there is. I'm not big on worm theology. Christ is risen. We are beloved and justified. I do not need to grovel.
Ash Wednesday and Good Friday are different. They remember our fallenness, not our victory in Christ.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
As a middle of the road Anglican, I see myself as being part of a church with catholic substance and protestant principles.
Thus the principles of your Anglican church are insubstantial, and her substance is unprincipled. But we already knew that...
But of course you'd say that. You're a fundie Roman Catholic.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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fullgospel
Shipmate
# 18233
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Posted
I think kneeling can be a wonderful thing to do in church and at home.
Years ago, an elderly anglo-catholic (as it happens) deaconess advised me to begin each day, by kneeling by the bed, with duvet pulled over shoulders if necessary in winter, and say something like, " dear God, here i am I give myself to you, please use me today."
Wonderful advise, and from her heart.
I would not willingly sit during the eucharistic prayer and find kneeling very devotional - knees permitting now- but standing is ok too, for me.
I have noticed that many people where I am, kneel at the beginning of Exposition and then sit until the closing benediction. Including younger people.
Sometimes i go to (public) mass, at a hospice which also has a convent attached with many very elderly nuns. There, there are no kneelers of any description available, and everyone present sits during the eucharistic prayer, the sisters receive in their wheel-chairs or seats; and the more able bodied go up for Communion, and received standing as is customary in UK. I felt resistant to sitting, but accepted it on the 'when in Rome' (sic) principle ! The atmosphere of devotion is palpable which makes a big difference.
Btw It is the only place I know / go, where holy communion is always given / offered in one kind.
I have warm memories of the Mercy Seat at a childhood SA citadel. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
I think adaptability and the art of the possible, and personal preferences are also important, in the mix of worship and mission.
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on the one hand - self doubt
on the other, the universe that looks through your eyes - your eyes
Posts: 364 | From: Rubovia | Registered: Sep 2014
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I've never heard of, would not have thought of and am puzzled by, the suggestion that there's something wrong with kneeling because it's kneeling to the person presiding. With all due respect, that seems to me just plain odd/wrong.
Familiar old words from the old prayer book - which for us is still authoritative even if we are using Common Worship,
quote:
"Draw near with faith, and take this holy Sacrament to your comfort; and make your humble confession to Almighty God, meekly kneeling upon your knees."
As it happens, I like the modern practice - actually ancient - of also standing to pray, particularly for the Eucharistic Prayer. I'm happy with standing to receive, especially if theres no rail. It isn't standing I'm critical of. It's sitting. Sitting is what one does to listen. All too often, though, one has no option. Either there are only chairs or there is nothing to kneel on.
Posture matters. It speaks of what is in the heart and shapes the heart. I was brought up that one knelt to pray, at one's bedside or in church, and especially in church, I'd rather I wasn't expected to sit, particularly as a time will come when physically I will have no option. But for now, it feels a bit like lounging in Zion, and it's prevalence and acceptance feels a bit like an assumption that that's OK.
And I don't think one becomes the spiritual equivalent of UKIP by thinking or saying this.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'll kneel to God but not to people.
I think Christians have been kneeling to monarchs for centuries without too much ado.
Not Americans. It's a bit of a "thing" for us.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Go on, Mudfrog, cross yourself ... you know you want to ...
More seriously, it's something I've done privately for some time now and find it helpful. The wierd thing is, though, that I feel very self-conscious doing it publicly unless I'm visiting an Orthodox service.
My wife once saw me doing it surreptitiously in a low-church Anglican service and was aghast ...
I don't see how it's any different to raising one's hands 'changing a light-bulb' style as is the custom in some charismatic and charismatic-lite churches or any other gesture one might make in the context of worship.
We all have our postures and expressions. Even the sober, Presbyterian fixed frown is part and parcel of the rich world of liturgical gesture ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Where there is a difference of opinion about kneeling vs not kneeling, it can't be divided along purely Catholic/Protestant lines alone. I grew up in the Seventh-day Adventist church, which is about as stringently anti-Catholic as you can get, and, particularly in its more conservative fringes, deeply suspicious of anything that carries even the faintest tinge of "popery." (Our denominational press recently published a book titled -- and I wish I was kidding here -- "The Dangers of Contemplative Prayer.")
But Adventist always kneel in prayer, excepting only those who are infirm and unable -- in fact, the call to prayer in my home church for many years included the line, "Wherever possible let us all kneel for prayer," a tacit acknolwedgement that it might not be possible for some but if you could bend your knees you had better do so.
And, in fact, the more conservative, the more likely to kneel. In recent years there has been a strand of ultraconservative looniness in fringe Adventism which insists that you must kneel for EVERY prayer, even something as simple as a grace before meals or a short invocation to open a service. Those who follow this particular strand of extreme devoutness (probably the same people who bought copies of "The Dangers of Contemplative Prayer" now that I come to think of it) can easily be spotted if they are on the platform leading out during a service, because when leading any short prayer for which the preacher or other speaker would normally stay standing, they will ostentatiously drop to their knees (requiring the sound person to put a kneeling-height microphone in place just to accommodate them).
All of which arcane detail I offer up just to illustrate that a passion for kneeling can definitely go hand-in-hand with an aversion to Catholicism and ritual.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Unless the pews have gone since I've been, the conservative evangelical Anglican churches in the town I used to live in all have hassocks in the pews. IME there is often not enough room left between pews for kneeling - RC churches seem to have more space between pews, but then of course have in-built kneelers too which helps. I am all for kneeling in church though I myself struggle to do so physically. I would prefer to kneel but can't, and the same is the case for receiving the Eucharist.
Worth remembering that not all disability is obvious, by the way - you don't have to have a wheelchair or crutches to be disabled, and someone may look fit and healthy but in reality is not.
I find the RC standing for intercessions very odd I must confess - not for any deep theological reason but sitting to learn, standing to declare (inc singing) and kneeling to pray just seems much more logical to me.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm not big on worm theology. Christ is risen. We are beloved and justified. I do not need to grovel.
If you don't understand that you are much less than a worm as compared to God, then you don't really understand what it means that Christ incarnated, died and rose as one of us. As for the need to "grovel", that's more applied human psychology than anything else, really. If you start believing in the "good buddy God", which I hear preached in RC churches as much as anywhere incidentally, then you will inevitably end up with the "good buddy" and not with "God". That's how human minds work. What you call "grovelling" is little more than crawling a little back up that slippery slope which leads from the Almighty to a service godlet.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But of course you'd say that. You're a fundie Roman Catholic.
Let's hope so!
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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