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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Operation Christmas Child
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quantpole
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# 8401
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Posted
My kids school is doing the shoebox appeal, and having looked into it I'm not particularly happy about supporting it.
Ignoring whether it is a good and effective way of distributing aid (I would generally say not), is tying evangelism in with such giving appropriate? Is it fair game to tell people why you are giving them things in the hope of conversions?
A lot of missionary and aid work go hand in hand, and in general I'm comfortable with the programmes I know about and support (e.g. World Vision). But OCC seems different somehow - it seems like bribery, and focusing on children in particular feels wrong. I must also admit I'm really not a fan of Franklin Graham so that may cloud my thinking.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think the UK operation is different from the US operation - from something I recall from years ago. The UK operations behaves in a less bribey way.
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
I still use OCC with the kids at our church, even though I share many of the reservations in the OP, particularly the reservations about Franklin himself and the awful statements he is so prone to making.
As a regular participant (our church has been doing this for years) who gets their regular newsletters/flyers, I have trouble getting a clear idea of what actually happens when the boxes are distributed. It is clear that an evangelistic booklet is inserted into each box, and that distribution may happen in some sort of Xmas party where some version of a gospel message is presented. I imagine that varies greatly depending on the staff member doing it. (I'd like to say it varies greatly depending on the cultural context, but I have zero confidence that is the case).
The reason I keep doing that is for the kids in our program as much as anything else. Certainly there would be more efficient and less culturally questionable ways to help support families in refugee camps-- our church does that through our denominational aid agency. The reason I use OCC is that it's such an effective tool in teaching children about giving-- hands-on, tangible, visual. They are able to engage in good empathy-building skills as they imagine what a child in a refugee camp might want in their box. I have (so far) decided to put up with the other questions I have about Samaritan's Purse in order to provide this important teaching tool for our kids. After 5th grade our kids participate in other sorts of programs that provide aid in more efficient and effective and culturally appropriate ways.
There's where I've landed for now, but it's always an open question for me.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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ElaineC
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# 12244
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Posted
Our church supports Smile. They do add any literature to the boxes.
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Posts: 464 | From: Orpington, Kent, UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I'm not a devotee of Mumsnet (wrong gender, for a start) ... but there has been a lot of discussion there about whether Samaritan's Purse is trying to "silence" its critics. I have no idea how much is true and how much is hearsay ...
Anyway, here's the link.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
Cliffdweller, the benefit for the children giving things is what makes me think there is some worth in this sort of project. Are there not alternative charities who do similar without the proselytising?
S Cat, I think they have bowed to pressure in the UK a while back and tried to make it seem less in your face. So the leaflets and delivered 'alongside' the boxes rather than in them.They aren't exactly clear about what happens when they are distributed but their website says:
"They give local churches the opportunity to show God’s love to children in a tangible way and, during the distribution event, to share the Good News of Jesus Christ, perhaps through age-appropriate music, dance and puppet shows, or through a little book of Bible stories The Greatest Gift, distributed with the shoebox, not inside it." and "In some cases, after the shoebox distribution, children may be invited to attend a discipleship programme called The Greatest Journey." (The Greatest Gift incidentally is very much a conevo pamphlet, with PSA and 'sinner's prayer').
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
Cliffdweller, the benefit for the children giving things is what makes me think there is some worth in this sort of project. Are there not alternative charities who do similar without the proselytising?
Not in the same way, at least here in So. Cal. And they've made it very easy to participate (local distribution centers, ample online resources, etc.). All of which goes to the point I acknowledge: that our participation is more about us (the benefit to our kids) than it is about them. At this point I don't think the boxes are causing any real harm (I suspect the evangelistic efforts are handled the way pretty much every con-evo outreach is-- an annoyance to sit through to get to the stuff you want/need). And I'm a con-evo myself so I'm not quite as offended by it as others might be (tho the methodology I am sure is flawed and culturally inappropriate). So I'm OK with doing this one thing that I hope/pray/think provides some small blessing to children in need but provides a greater benefit to our kids (in teaching them empathy and giving). But I limit it to those young kids who need a tangible, visible means of giving. Once they're old enough for abstract reasoning, our charitable drives need to be much more discerning.
But again, I may decide differently at any point in time-- most likely the next time Franklin opens his mouth.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
As I am not actually part of a church anymore, I don't actually have any involvement in this. But when I did, a few years ago, the impression I was given was that the boxes were distributed, and there was a presentation around why people wanted to do this - that was the limit of the Christian input.
It sounds like it is actually much harder than this, which worries me - especially as children from local schools and other such places are often encouraged to contribute. I like the idea of giving children something to brighten their lives up - it is meaningful to them, and for them, at the time, it is more significant than long-term support. I am happy for this to be alongside, say, a video of why they do it.
But making it like time-share sales is wrong. They are given by people freely, and out of a spirit of generosity and openness. To take such gifts and make them tools for pressured evangelism is wrong.
It is no substitute for long-term, committed giving, but then, it is not intended to be. It is a way of children (often) giving to others, and making them aware that others are not so well off.
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
SC wrote:- quote:
As I am not actually part of a church anymore, I don't actually have any involvement in this. But when I did, a few years ago, the impression I was given was that the boxes were distributed, and there was a presentation around why people wanted to do this - that was the limit of the Christian input.
SC - where are you?
In the UK there are quite a few "Christmas Box" type charity operations that do exactly as you say. I can't imagine there would not be similar ventures in parts of the US/Canada etc. Coverage may be patchy of course.
The particular charge is levelled at this particular charity, which admittedly seems huge.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
What OCC say is quote:
We have never put Christian literature into shoeboxes before they are shipped, nor do we ever intend to do so. Where appropriate, the local church or Christian partner distributing the shoeboxes may issue a free copy of a Christian booklet
The linked page also allows you to view the booklet that may be given out.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
Does it make a difference whether the booklet is in the box or on top of it? Also, that is the UK version. The US one says, "When children unwrap a shoe box gift, they receive more than coloring books, toys, and toothbrushes. They are also given “The Greatest Gift,” a booklet in the local language filled with scriptures, colorful pictures, and a simple presentation of the Gospel."
And yes the booklet does give a very good presentation of the conevo gospel. I doubt other Christians would be that keen on it though.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
@quantpole
We have very recently worked through this issue at my church and the leadership team were very uncomfortable about how the whole business had developed into what it has.
In the end we decided not to continue, partly because we do a number of other things at Christmas (many that have started since we agreed to the shoeboxes) for local and international mission anyway.
If Mrs Tubbs feels like contributing on this thread she maybe able to direct you to various resources as she did a lot of research on it.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Sometimes I really would prefer to remain ignorant. It seems that Blythswood, who organise a shoe box appeal here, are similarly leveraging the gifts people give to support their evangelistic efforts. They are active in a selection of eastern European countries, most of which are Catholic or Orthodox. I don't know what the material they add to the boxes (yes, it is added) is like but I'm not hopeful.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
What OCC say is quote:
We have never put Christian literature into shoeboxes before they are shipped, nor do we ever intend to do so. Where appropriate, the local church or Christian partner distributing the shoeboxes may issue a free copy of a Christian booklet
The linked page also allows you to view the booklet that may be given out.
'The true meaning of Christmas'.
What is truth?
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
SC wrote:- quote:
As I am not actually part of a church anymore, I don't actually have any involvement in this. But when I did, a few years ago, the impression I was given was that the boxes were distributed, and there was a presentation around why people wanted to do this - that was the limit of the Christian input.
SC - where are you?
In the UK there are quite a few "Christmas Box" type charity operations that do exactly as you say. I can't imagine there would not be similar ventures in parts of the US/Canada etc. Coverage may be patchy of course.
The particular charge is levelled at this particular charity, which admittedly seems huge.
I am in the UK, and the local churches do support OCC. How happy they would be with their tactics, if they were clearly aware of them, varies between churches.
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
In the UK there are quite a few "Christmas Box" type charity operations that do exactly as you say. I can't imagine there would not be similar ventures in parts of the US/Canada etc. Coverage may be patchy of course.
The particular charge is levelled at this particular charity, which admittedly seems huge.
I'm not aware of any other "Christmas box" charities in my part of the US (and believe me, I've looked)-- probably precisely because this one is so big it would dwarf all competitors. And, again, admittedly that's part of the appeal-- the size means that they are able to make it very user-friendly-- there are, for example, a half dozen drop-off sites w/in a 5-10 mile radius of our church.
I do know some churches who essentially use the idea to do their own Christmas shoebox thing-- either working with ministry partners overseas to put together and ship boxes to them with items those partners deem useful; or working with a local agency to put together shoeboxes that will be given to local homeless kids. At some point that's probably the way I'll go at my church (the latter being logistically easier than the former). I just haven't gotten fed up enough with Franklin to invest the time/effort it would take to do that yet-- but I'm sure the day is coming, and soon.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The shoe box appeal/ distributor I'm aware of (and which is supported by our local WI) is for children in Romania and was started by Olivia Harrison, widow of George.
It has nothing at all to do with any brand of religion: rather it is about getting these children some of what our own offspring would consider the necessities of life but which children in Romanian orphanages cannot access.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
As mission partners we are linked with a number of parish churches back in the UK.
We receive their weekly pew-sheets via email.
Two of them, one Anglo-Catholic and one the higher end of the spectrum, do Christmas boxes. I've visited the websites of the organisations they work through and the links are below. As far as I can see from their "about us" pages their Christianity is their motivation rather than their goal!But I could be wrong.....
http://www.msrm.org.uk/index.html
http://linktohope.co.uk/
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Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
The boxes I have seen come with instructions not to include anything of a religious nature. I'm wondering if some countries handle this differently.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
The boxes I have seen come with instructions not to include anything of a religious nature. I'm wondering if some countries handle this differently.
That doesn't sound like Operation Christmas Child (Samaritan's Purse), but some other organization.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
But it is Samaritan's Purse - Operation Christmas Child. That's how it operates where I live anyway. However, I'll investigate it further before our church paricipates next year. As I said the instructions may be different in other countries.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I love this little charity. I don't care if Franklin Graham, who I don't like, is involved or whether or not there are other, more serious charities for feeding the children. It's a fun, heart warming thing for children, and me, to do each year. Sure I give money to other charities but I don't get the same warm fuzzies thinking about a bag of rice that I do thinking of a child opening that box and finding toys and crayons. Don't we all need a little fun in our lives?
As for the brochures -- again, why not? What's so awful about telling someone about Jesus? Does it have to be "propaganda?" Can't it be a ray of hope in a miserable life?
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I know some Methodists who get involved in Samaritan's Purse and Christmas shoeboxes, and I doubt they'd approve of any leaflets that threatened children or parents with hell.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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barrea
Shipmate
# 3211
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Posted
It helps our children to think of others, at a time when they get so much for themselves,and they enjoy doing it. My wife and I have made boxes up for quite a few years, but have given up now because of age and disability. But don't see anything wrong with telling people the good news of Jesus.
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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
Posts: 1050 | From: england | Registered: Aug 2002
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
I can see the benefit for children putting the boxes together that it is something tangible they can do to help others. I don't think they are a great way of distributing aid - logistically it is very inefficient and it doesn't support local economies.
What I have asked the school is whether they would consider switching to a different shoe box appeal, that doesn't come with the ties.
I am interested in what is considered reasonable when doing this sort of thing though. Reading discussions on non-faith forums, it is very split with some people saying they are doing something nice and so what if they want to preach a bit, to others saying they are trying to indoctrinate children using toys in a sneaky manner. I haven't heard anything from the communities where they send the parcels and whether they care or not. I'm not sure if I am just uneasy in a overly hand-wringing type way, concerned too much about how these things look to others.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
... I haven't heard anything from the communities where they send the parcels and whether they care or not. I'm not sure if I am just uneasy in a overly hand-wringing type way, concerned too much about how these things look to others.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Thank you for that. I think you've pinpointing the one fundamental question that matters, and which everyone who's been arguing either way on this has missed. Without knowing an objective answer to it, all the agonising is just hand-wringing nonsense.
[ 20. October 2014, 13:09: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Our church has a relationship with the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, where the poverty is very stark. In addition to sending things for the children at Christmas, we send necessary items throughout the year.
We used to send shoeboxes to the children, but we now send backpacks, which they can use later. In late November we have a 'Party with a Purpose', where the children of the parish help pack the backpacks.
We are fortunate in having a direct link to this needy community. We know enough about them that we feel personal concern. I suspect that this type of one-on-one relationship distributes aid much more efficiently than larger organizations.
Moo
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Our vicar is keen on it but during his recent sabbatical in Peru he saw that many of the boxes contained material suitable for girls and many of the boy recipients and their mothers were quite upset ...
They opened the boxes with anticipation and were disappointed with the contents.
Now that's an interesting conundrum.
That said, others were delighted.
The concept doesn't sit well with me, I must admit but I wouldn't die in a ditch over it. I'm sure it brightens up some of the recipients' lives - but it seems quite a token thing. The real relief and development work goes on in projects that empower people ... not trickles of gifts of coloured pencils ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Our vicar is keen on it but during his recent sabbatical in Peru he saw that many of the boxes contained material suitable for girls and many of the boy recipients and their mothers were quite upset ...
They opened the boxes with anticipation and were disappointed with the contents.
I'm a bit puzzled by that. In my last parish, there was a strong support of OCC (despite the parish being highly wary of ANYTHING evangelical). Our boxes were always clearly labelled "boy" or "girl", as well as an indication of the appropriate age range.
But then, the UK boxes go to Eastern Europe and the Middle East, as far as I can remember. If your vicar was in Peru, I suspect he was looking at American originated boxes. Perhaps they don't have the same labelling system as exists in the UK?
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The concept doesn't sit well with me, I must admit but I wouldn't die in a ditch over it. I'm sure it brightens up some of the recipients' lives - but it seems quite a token thing. The real relief and development work goes on in projects that empower people ... not trickles of gifts of coloured pencils ...
I agree completely that "real relief" is something very different from these boxes. But I wouldn't be so quick to minimise the impact that they have - both for the giver and the recipient. The problem with "real relief and development" work is that it is inevitably large scale and impersonal. I think that there is something very attractive about a system whereby someone in the UK (or the US or wherever) thinks about a box of small gifts to give to someone in a less well-off country, whose life will (hopefully) be brightened immensely in receiving small tokens of love and generosity.
I have concerns about some aspects of this project, but at its heart is a simple and effective idea about how one person can actually make a difference to someone living in a desperate situation.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Our vicar is keen on it but during his recent sabbatical in Peru he saw that many of the boxes contained material suitable for girls and many of the boy recipients and their mothers were quite upset ...
They opened the boxes with anticipation and were disappointed with the contents.
I'm a bit puzzled by that. In my last parish, there was a strong support of OCC (despite the parish being highly wary of ANYTHING evangelical). Our boxes were always clearly labelled "boy" or "girl", as well as an indication of the appropriate age range.
But then, the UK boxes go to Eastern Europe and the Middle East, as far as I can remember. If your vicar was in Peru, I suspect he was looking at American originated boxes. Perhaps they don't have the same labelling system as exists in the UK?
We have that exact same color-coded labeling system. I think there are certain demographics that are just more appealing to recipients (e.g. younger kids, possibly girls over boys) and some that are more challenging and so just don't get as many boxes made. I've always heard they get the least number of boxes for older boys, so I've always tried to steer our families towards making boxes for that group.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
My understanding of it is that whilst the organisers do their best to provide boy/girl labels and so on, for some reason most of the donors veer towards the female side when choosing gifts - so there are more female boxes than male ones.
As it's a voluntary thing, the organisers can't dictate what donors are going to provide and have to work with what they're given ...
As Cliffdweller says, it's particularly an issue for older boys.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
This is a general problem with this kind of appeal, I think. A few years ago my workplace organised a collection of toys at Christmas (for children in France) and it was noticeable that people brought more stuff suitable for girls than boys unless they were reminded. I purposely brought a toy suitable for a boy (a lovely red fire engine ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ) but I was definitely in the minority.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
This is a general problem with this kind of appeal, I think. A few years ago my workplace organised a collection of toys at Christmas (for children in France) and it was noticeable that people brought more stuff suitable for girls than boys unless they were reminded. I purposely brought a toy suitable for a boy (a lovely red fire engine ) but I was definitely in the minority.
That's probably because more of the people who participate tend to be women. In a school, I bet more boxes are packed by mothers than fathers. Since, when they were children, they were little girls, I suspect that means they are more likely to choose presents suitable for who they once were.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
I think if the gifts are going to be wrapped then labeling by age/gender is only sensible.
Once my three nieces were in town for Xmas, and we went to the children's Christmas Eve service. It is elaborate (wreaths, candles, living Nativity, animals etc.) and the donated gifts are mounded up by the altar in a very impressive stack. I had carefully organized three of them so that each girl could carry a gift up and add it to the pile. Then the youngest turned to me and said, "And now we get one, right?"
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Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
This is a general problem with this kind of appeal, I think. A few years ago my workplace organised a collection of toys at Christmas (for children in France) and it was noticeable that people brought more stuff suitable for girls than boys unless they were reminded. I purposely brought a toy suitable for a boy (a lovely red fire engine ) but I was definitely in the minority.
That's probably because more of the people who participate tend to be women. In a school, I bet more boxes are packed by mothers than fathers. Since, when they were children, they were little girls, I suspect that means they are more likely to choose presents suitable for who they once were.
I think this is the case. Whereas, as mentioned above, the whole point of the somewhat fraught exercise is to teach children empathy and compassion. As has been discussed, there are better ways for an adult to give charitably-- more cost-effective & culturally appropriate, not giving a platform to a loudmouthed buffoon. The only reason IMHO for supporting this particular ministry is that it's so effective in teaching children those empathy skills. All of which is wasted if the parents are doing the shopping.
Whereas, if parents would take each of their children to the local store, give them a budget and some guidelines, and let the kids pick out the items (particularly the toys) one would assume the boxes would fall into a nice demographic representation, since girls would most likely pick out things that appeal to girls and boys pick out things that would appeal to boys.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
There's something else people can do as well. If, like my last parish, the boxes are being piled up at the back of the church, it only takes a moment to skim through and calculate how many boxes there are of each category. Our organiser used to do this and then make a plea for later boxes to be focused on the categories which really needed them. We found that some people would specifically ask where the need was greatest.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It might help not to send ostentatiously gendered stuff in the first place of course.
Salvation Army used to do presents for our mental health clients with no family, in our area. But that has largely stopped now - though I think some organisations still do hospital wards.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
This is a general problem with this kind of appeal, I think. A few years ago my workplace organised a collection of toys at Christmas (for children in France) and it was noticeable that people brought more stuff suitable for girls than boys unless they were reminded. I purposely brought a toy suitable for a boy (a lovely red fire engine ) but I was definitely in the minority.
That's probably because more of the people who participate tend to be women. In a school, I bet more boxes are packed by mothers than fathers. Since, when they were children, they were little girls, I suspect that means they are more likely to choose presents suitable for who they once were.
I think this is the case. Whereas, as mentioned above, the whole point of the somewhat fraught exercise is to teach children empathy and compassion. As has been discussed, there are better ways for an adult to give charitably-- more cost-effective & culturally appropriate, not giving a platform to a loudmouthed buffoon. The only reason IMHO for supporting this particular ministry is that it's so effective in teaching children those empathy skills. All of which is wasted if the parents are doing the shopping.
Whereas, if parents would take each of their children to the local store, give them a budget and some guidelines, and let the kids pick out the items (particularly the toys) one would assume the boxes would fall into a nice demographic representation, since girls would most likely pick out things that appeal to girls and boys pick out things that would appeal to boys.
Yes, this what we do, we get our 2 boys to choose items for their own age group.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Since my only child was a boy, I always do a boy box -- and then since my child was a boy, I do a girl box. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Sorry, Doublethink, if I don't get to buy a few dolls each Christmas (Toys for Tots, too) baby Santa cries.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
I've supported OCC in the past in was intending to do so again.
I think it's weird that they tell us not to put anything of a religious nature into the box if they are then going to add relgious stuff to it.
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"...But I always want to know the things one shouldn’t do.”
“So as to do them?” asked her aunt.
“So as to choose,” said Isabel.
Henry James - The Portrait of A Lady
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
I've supported OCC in the past in was intending to do so again.
I think it's weird that they tell us not to put anything of a religious nature into the box if they are then going to add relgious stuff to it.
It makes perfect sense if you consider that they want a monopoly for their brand of conservative Christianity.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
I've supported OCC in the past in was intending to do so again.
I think it's weird that they tell us not to put anything of a religious nature into the box if they are then going to add relgious stuff to it.
It makes perfect sense if you consider that they want a monopoly for their brand of conservative Christianity.
I gather the reason is because they only give out leaflets when 'culturally appropriate' so they don't want religious things sneaking in undisclosed, or so their website said the last time I was on a thread discussing this (it was a very anti-Christian discussion on a parenting website).
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
I've supported OCC in the past in was intending to do so again.
I think it's weird that they tell us not to put anything of a religious nature into the box if they are then going to add relgious stuff to it.
It makes perfect sense if you consider that they want a monopoly for their brand of conservative Christianity.
I gather the reason is because they only give out leaflets when 'culturally appropriate' so they don't want religious things sneaking in undisclosed, or so their website said the last time I was on a thread discussing this (it was a very anti-Christian discussion on a parenting website).
fwiw, the US directions do not contain that provision. So apparently it's only you Brits who can't be trusted to share the gospel in culturally appropriate ways (*cough *cough). Um.... riiiiight...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
But it is Samaritan's Purse - Operation Christmas Child. That's how it operates where I live anyway. However, I'll investigate it further before our church paricipates next year. As I said the instructions may be different in other countries.
It's also how this scheme was operated by a few churches I knew off in England. The specific instructions included nothing religious to be included in the boxes. It would be explicitly obvious that the distributors were a Christian organization, but within the boxes themselves nothing evangelistic or overtly Christian was to be included, simply because of the possibility of offence to people of other faiths (should they be recipients), or a confusion of motive for the generosity.
I suppose, too, that the fact it's a CHRISTMAS gift scheme does rather give the game away if any recipients are struggling with the idea of what kind of people might be involved with it.
I suppose it's a little like the idea that it was very nice of the local mission to offer soup and a bed, but not so nice when the 'price' was having to listen to someone preaching you at while you ate your food, and you were compelled to attend prayer before you slept and when you woke. Otherwise you were chucked out.
It'll always divide opinion whether such 'gifts' should be free or have a kind of imposition attached. Whether it's right that other religions should see it as an imposition is out of our hands.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I love this little charity. I don't care if Franklin Graham, who I don't like, is involved or whether or not there are other, more serious charities for feeding the children. It's a fun, heart warming thing for children, and me, to do each year. Sure I give money to other charities but I don't get the same warm fuzzies thinking about a bag of rice that I do thinking of a child opening that box and finding toys and crayons. Don't we all need a little fun in our lives?
As for the brochures -- again, why not? What's so awful about telling someone about Jesus? Does it have to be "propaganda?" Can't it be a ray of hope in a miserable life?
Except that these children are actual people and not there for your fun. Are your 'warm fuzzies' worth it if it's not actually a helpful scheme?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
When we did it, not only were we told not to include anything religious, we were also told not to include e.g. Marks & Spencer "Percy Pig" sweets, as these would be offensive to Muslim recipients.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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