Ship of Fools: MW 2634 Newington Green Unitarian Church

Thread: MW 2634 Newington Green Unitarian Church Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I was interested to read Cool Dude's report on this church. However I was slightly intrigued by the closing comment "I would miss liturgy and congregational tradition" as I thought that Congregationalist polity was part of Unitarianism's DNA. But perhaps we are using the word in a slightly different sense.

I was pleased that the Report highlighted the "... and Free Christian" title of Unitarianism. I understand that there is a lively debate going on within the denomination as to how Christian (or indeed Theist) it should be, with those who major on Reason and non-Theism having the majority. Can anyone confirm or contradict this?

And is the Society of Friends having a similar debate?

[ 23. December 2013, 08:31: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

Link to report.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I was glad to see a report on a unitarian church. I've known individual unitarians who attend such churches for reasons other than their theology. While the denomination may not be 'Christian', many of its attendees are.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But perhaps we are using the word in a slightly different sense.

I'm not the author, so I don't know. But my reading suggests that Cool Dude meant that he would miss the traditions that most congregations have -- the shared experiences of Christmas and Easter and so on. I'm sure that the Unitarian congregation has their own traditions and shared experiences, but I gathered that Cool Dude would rather miss his own. I don't think it has anything to do with a congregational form of church polity.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

From my limited experience of Unitarian worship, it is All things to all Faiths and not dogmatic enough for me.

Unitarianism attracts those who have a problem in struggling to come to terms with the doctrine of the Trinity, which it does not subscribe to.

Congregationalist in polity may refer to Congregationalist in denomination (in England URC) or congregarionalist in government - I am not sure which.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
But my reading suggests that Cool Dude meant that he would miss the traditions that most congregations have ... I don't think it has anything to do with a congregational form of church polity.

Yes, I think you may well be right.

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But perhaps we are using the word in a slightly different sense.
I'm not the author, so I don't know. But my reading suggests that Cool Dude meant that he would miss the traditions that most congregations have -- the shared experiences of Christmas and Easter and so on.

Thanks to a connection via my partner with the Unitarian Church, I have attended the local one occasionally - one of these occasions was for Communion on good Friday, and one was for a Carol Service last Christmas (complete with Morris dancers - amazing!) .... so yes they do celebrate Christmas and Easter, just not in exactly the same way as we would expect in other churches. But less 'different' than one might expect. Just saying.

(My partner comes from Transylvania where the Unitarian church first emerged - out there it is more like a mainstream Christian denomination)

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Agreed - having once visited a Unitarian church in Transylvania and having been urged by the Pastor to sing along to Moody & Sankey Gospel hymns! (We sang in English, he sang in Romanian).

As in other denominations, there is a variance in the ministry offered in different congos- the Minister at our local Unitarian church would be pretty indistinguishable from a URC Minister at the liberal end of the spectrum and champions the "Free Christian" label.

I'm sorry I missed the Morris dancing - though my wife can't stand it. But, then, she is Scottish.

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :

Back to the OP (re Congregationalist polity being 'part of Unitarianism's DNA') and yet still continuing the tangent about Transylvania, I was interested to read in Wikipedia that

quote:
The Transylvanian and Hungarian Unitarians represent the only branch of Unitarianism not to have adopted a congregationalist polity, and remains quasi-episcopal. <snip> The Unitarian Church of Transylvania is administrated by a Bishop and two Curators-General, being divided into five Archpriestships.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
From my limited experience of Unitarian worship, it is All things to all Faiths and not dogmatic enough for me.

Unitarianism attracts those who have a problem in struggling to come to terms with the doctrine of the Trinity, which it does not subscribe to.

Congregationalist in polity may refer to Congregationalist in denomination (in England URC) or congregarionalist in government - I am not sure which.

Ok a word for the Ecclesiantics dictionary

Polity - means style of government.

You can be governed by

the Bishop - in which case Epicopalian (a form of aristocratic* government)
by the clerics - in which case Presbyterian (actually a form of representative democracy)
by the congregation - in which case Congregational (direct democracy)

Jengie

*aristocracy used in the sense of Thomas Aquinas. Ruled by the elite, the elite does not need to be inheritance

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
The Unitarian Church of Transylvania is administrated by a Bishop and two Curators-General, being divided into five Archpriestships.

Oh, my goodness! Do we have anyone in Transylvania who could MW? I'd love to be a bat in the rafters -- oops, I mean a fly on the wall.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
The Unitarian Church of Transylvania is administrated by a Bishop and two Curators-General, being divided into five Archpriestships.

Wow! Makes us Baptist ministers sound pretty small fry.

Posted by Try (# 4951) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I was interested to read Cool Dude's report on this church. However I was slightly intrigued by the closing comment "I would miss liturgy and congregational tradition" as I thought that Congregationalist polity was part of Unitarianism's DNA. But perhaps we are using the word in a slightly different sense.

As I recall, while in America the Unitarians mostly sprang from a schism with the Congregationalists*, the Unitarians in the UK sprang from the Presbyterians. In fact, IIRC the English Presbyterian Church voted to become Unitarian as a body, and the remaining Trinitarians either became chapels of the Church of Scotland or adopted a congregational polity. Whether British Unitarianism remains more centralized than American Unitarian Universalism I do not know.

*There were a few exceptions- Kings Chapel, in Boston, was an Episcopal church that went Unitarian. However, Unitarianism was mostly confined to New England.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Try:
As I recall, while in America the Unitarians mostly sprang from a schism with the Congregationalists*, the Unitarians in the UK sprang from the Presbyterians.

In our town the Presbyterians and Independents (= Congregationalists) were worshipping together in the late 1600s. In 1686 the Independents broke away to form their own church, while the Presbyterians remained and became Unitarian.

However, I know that some English General Baptist churches became Unitarian in the 1700s, some returned to being Trinitarian (e.g. Gold Hill in Buckinghamshire) but others, one presumes, didn't.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Unitarianism originated here in the good old CofE. The Presbyterian and General Baptists tended to be Liberal Christian (or in terminology I recently came across "rational dissent" which is wider as it definitely covers Quakers).

Jengie

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

I gather Unitarian services vary from congregation to congregations. I went to the local UU solstice celebration last Saturday (very much modern pagan and ended with burning the yule log plus food [some of the cookies baked by some of the older children] and mulled wine and cider). I'm still not sure how they got us walking in three lines in a spiral without total confusion.

They'll be having probably a more standard Christmas service tonight. I'll be going to a different church though the preacher there will be Unitarian.

Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on :

Our local Unitarians offer:

Sun 22 at 11.00 a.m. Service: Celebrations: Winter Solstice, Christmas, etc - the importance of light and of companionship at this time of year.

Sun 29 at 11.00 a.m. Service: Encouraging Each Other: in life, in spiritual questing, in how we change and grow.

Nothing on Christmas Day.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I take it that there is little continuity between the Transylvanian Unitarians (originating in C16 from Socinus?) and British and American Unitarians (originating from dissenters influenced by the Enlightenment).

I've just come home from celebrating the dogma of the Incarnation at a hierachical ritual.

Posted by Dogwalker (# 14135) on :

For those who need liturgy with their unitarian-ness, King's Chapel Boston has their own Prayer Book:

Book of Common Prayer for King's Chapel, Boston

Merry Christmas!

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dogwalker:
For those who need liturgy with their unitarian-ness, King's Chapel Boston has their own Prayer Book:

Book of Common Prayer for King's Chapel, Boston

Merry Christmas!

Yes, I was surprised about the liturgy comment in the MW report. UUs, to me, have always seemed to relish in prepared liturgy. The ritual lighting of the chalice candle alone is more ritualized than many Baptist churches. After all, aren't these the folks who gave the world "flower communion"?

Let me take this opportunity to thank the MW editors for allowing the report. It was quite informative. My Trinitarian sensibilities have kept me from attending the Sunday service at Frank Lloyd Wright's Unity Temple, but perhaps I might pop in sometime now. (No, I won't try to submit a MW!)

[ 25. December 2013, 15:47: Message edited by: Olaf ]

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

I think it can safely be said that should further Unitarian reports be submitted, the editors will look upon them most liberally.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

There is great variety in Unitarian practice (and perhaps theology) here in the US.

King's, Boston seems very trad -- high and dry, one might say, while 1st Uni in Evanston, IL where I was substitute organist (in the 1960s) was very freeform, the joke was that 'the only time the name of Jesus was heard was when the sexton fell down the stairs.' My last UU experience was a funeral (in Lou, KY) which consisted almost entirely of reminiscences by colleagues of the deceased, and the music was Mozart string quartets and selections from Gilbert & Sullivan. There is an historic UU church here in Charleston, but I've not attended it.

Posted by gorpo (# 17025) on :

The Unitarian Universalist Church is an interesting case within north-american protestantism. It started out with congregations coming from reformed, congregational and presbyterian traditions. It went trough a gradual de-christianization so that today they no longer claim to be a christian denomination anymore. You can find atheist ministers and pagan feasts being celebrated in many of its congregations.

I believe that is exactly the same process churches like ELCA (lutheran), TEC (Episcopal), PCUSA (Presbyterian), UCC (congregational) and UMC (United Methodist) are going trough. I believe that in 1 or 2 decades, at least some of these denominations will no longer claim to be christian anymore and will become completely non-creedal like the UUC is.

Well, there is at least one ELCA congregation where you can find worship of egyptian godesses and no mention of Jesus at all: http://www.herchurch.org/

There are at least a bunch of UUC congregations that are simultaneosly affiliated with the American Baptist, United Church Of Christ and United Methodist Church denominations.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
Back to the OP (re Congregationalist polity being 'part of Unitarianism's DNA') and yet still continuing the tangent about Transylvania, I was interested to read in Wikipedia that
quote:
The Transylvanian and Hungarian Unitarians represent the only branch of Unitarianism not to have adopted a congregationalist polity, and remains quasi-episcopal. <snip> The Unitarian Church of Transylvania is administrated by a Bishop and two Curators-General, being divided into five Archpriestships.

So, aside from being Arians, do Transylvanian Unitarians follow Protestant or Orthodox models? And if they celebrate Easter, when do they celebrate?

The wikipaedia article implies that they look more in a Prod direction. If they are predominantly Hungarian speaking, that would also fit.

Sort of tangent alert
I was told a year or two ago that at least some Roumanian Protestant denominations follow the Orthodox calendar. There are also Georgian Baptists who are clearly Baptists and linked to other Baptists elsewhere but have ikons and in some respects look to western eyes more like Orthodoxen than Prods.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

/aware of potential tangent/

Orthodoxen Baptists (or vice-versa)?

We had a joint Carol Service last Sunday with our local Baptist congregation (their minister preached a memorable homily - Two Mars bars - or the baby gets it!), and they all said how much they liked the smell of our Rosa Mystica incense.......

Sorry - I'll get me coat....

Ian J.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I take it that there is little continuity between the Transylvanian Unitarians (originating in C16 from Socinus?) and British and American Unitarians (originating from dissenters influenced by the Enlightenment).

I am glad you think that Anglicans are dissenters.

Jengie

Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
So, aside from being Arians, do Transylvanian Unitarians follow Protestant or Orthodox models? And if they celebrate Easter, when do they celebrate?

The wikipaedia article implies that they look more in a Prod direction. If they are predominantly Hungarian speaking, that would also fit.

I went to Transylvania about fifteen years ago for a largely Unitarian conference, and learned a fair bit about the situation there. There's a sizeable (about a third of the population, I think) ethnic Hungarian minority; Transylvania was part of Hungary until just after WW1, when it was ceded to Romania. The Romanians are Orthodox, the ethnic Hungarians a mixture of RCs and Protestants. The Unitarians are part of mainstream Protestantism there, and share the Protestant theological college in Koloszvar/Cluj with the Reformatus, the largest Protestant denomination, and Lutherans. When I was there the principal of the college was a Unitarian (who subsequently went on to be Unitarian Bishop). As far as I could see relationships between the three denominations were very good, as they were too with the RCs, though I wasn't really sure how far ethnic solidarity trumped theological differences.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I understand that there is a lively debate going on within the denomination as to how Christian (or indeed Theist) it should be, with those who major on Reason and non-Theism having the majority. Can anyone confirm or contradict this?

I can't confirm or contradict your statement, but I used to read a very interesting British Unitarian blog that did bring to light some of the tensions in the movement.
http://pluralistspeaks.blogspot.co.uk/

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Most interesting, thank you! - especially with reference to "Thought for the Day" on Boxing Day and the ways in which American Unitarian Christmas celebrations might be going.

[ 04. January 2014, 15:45: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Clotilde (# 17600) on :

There were Unitarians that used Catholic ceremonies.
A very interesting step - a very liberal theology with ritual - a fascinating combination, not unlike some Anglican churches, perhaps!

This interesting (pdf) article tells about some of these Unitarians. (It says its a sermon but reads as a history article!)

I don't know if this 'Free Catholic' thread is still found in Unitarianism / URC / Reformed tradition but it deserves to be found, I think.

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