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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: High/low perspective (MW:2653 St Barnabas, Dulwich)
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
I was interested to read the MW report about St Barnabas, Dulwich as it's close to where I used to live and I used to know some people who worshipped there (although I don't know where that photo of the choir came from - it definitely wasn't taken in St Barnabas!)
Sipech, the reviewer, obviously comes from a non-liturgical background which would explain why a lot of the service would have seemed alien. I was a little surprised to see the service described as "High church Anglicanism". From what I remember of St Barnabas, they certainly go in for formal and traditional liturgy, but I would never have described them as "high church", but from Sipech's perspective they obviously are. (If Sipech wants to encounter real high church, s/he should wander along to somewhere like All Saints, Margaret St!)
This go me thinking though. From what perspective would the level of Churchmanship be described? There is a moderate Evangelical parish I know of where they certainly don't go in for ceremony, they have a mixture of traditional hymns and modern worship songs and the priest wears surplice, tippet and hood to celebrate the Holy Communion. Now, I regard that as low church, yet many of the congregation regard themselves as "middle of the road" and I suspect someone from a non-liturgical background, such as Sipech, may even regard it as being "high".
So who sets the level of the candle? At what point does worship become high, low, MOTR, happy-clappy or whatever?
[ 02. February 2014, 11:49: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Mr Beamish
Apprentice
# 17991
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Posted
I've been to about ten different churches in the last ten years due to much moving, all of varying stripes. I would say that things start becoming high with the addition of choirs in surplices, and climb with incense, birettas, Benediction, Roman Rites and other things disapproved of by the Low Churchman's Guide. Vestments are now so widespread that their existence cannot be used to determine whether or not something is "high", although a cleric in a polyester shower curtain is probably not so far up the candlewick as one in a Latin cassock with "AM" stitched in gold. Traditional language is now identified as "high", I think, which is curious because a service done precisely according to the BCP's instructions would look more Lutheran than Anglican to many. But then, people also associate "modern" with "low" which is erroneous.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
To be fair, Sipech's exact phrase was 'High church Anglicanism'. I don't know if any distinction was intended between 'High church Anglicanism' and 'high church Christianity' - but maybe that's a helpful distinction to make. Across the whole of worldwide Christian practice, the service at St Barnabas was, I'd guess, certainly not 'low church' (although maybe not really high either) but across Anglicanism specifically? Perhaps it would then be at the lower end.
Does that seem to be a sensible distinction?
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
One CofE church I know has choirs (more than one, I think) in surplices. I once referred to this church as 'high' to another CofE vicar who knew this church well but was herself appointed elsewhere. From her expression she seemed not to agree with my use of the word.
I once attended another CofE church that struck me as evangelical due to its taped worship songs and a spot of arm-waving; but the vicar was in vestments. I found that a strange combination.
Basically, I'm not in the CofE and find its varieties of churchmanship difficult to understand. (I'm pretty sure the cathedral is high, though. Aren't they all?)
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Mr Beamish
Apprentice
# 17991
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Posted
"High" also means "Catholic" to many Anglicans, although that's not really a helpful association. Cathedrals tend to represent a fairly middle-of-the-road but highly formal worship, with overtones of the prevailing winds in the diocese. The Eucharist Prayer is often chanted at Norwich Cathedral. Bishops are prone to waving their hands in the air whilst singing at Southwell Minster.
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
It looks nice outside, and also really excellent singers!
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
"High" "Low" are relative terms that mean different things to different people. What is high to some is low to others and vice-versa. Much more definite are the terms anglo-catholic and evangelical.
Back in 1965, the legalisation of vestments measure came about, which to some was just a mere formality, carrying on as before. However, many years ago, I met a former Anglican cleric, who was a conservative evangelical, who told me that he had resigned his Church of England ministry, because of the passing of this measure. With the passage of time, the use of vestments became more and more taken for granted and it is a case of - some do and others don't.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I don't know where that photo of the choir came from - it definitely wasn't taken in St Barnabas!
The photo appears on the home page of the St Barnabas website.
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Must have been taken somewhere else (perhaps on a choir tour?) as it's definitely not St Barnabas
[ 02. February 2014, 15:56: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
From what perspective would the level of Churchmanship be described?
Their Parish Profile states:
quote:
Our worship has traditionally drawn on a diversity of liturgical experience and Christian traditions. At St Barnabas we use Common Worship and our worship is of a broadly central Anglican style. Clergy wear robes, and responses are usually sung. We celebrate the Eucharist with bread rather than wafers.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Must have been taken somewhere else (perhaps on a choir tour?) as it's definitely not St Barnabas
That being the case, I substituted a different photo from their parish profile.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I winced at the Mystery Worshipper's use of the term 'religiosity', as though however they choose to express their faith isn't equally 'religious' in some way ... just a different way.
There are none so blind ...
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Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
One CofE church I know has choirs (more than one, I think) in surplices. I once referred to this church as 'high' to another CofE vicar who knew this church well but was herself appointed elsewhere. From her expression she seemed not to agree with my use of the word.
I once attended another CofE church that struck me as evangelical due to its taped worship songs and a spot of arm-waving; but the vicar was in vestments. I found that a strange combination.
Basically, I'm not in the CofE and find its varieties of churchmanship difficult to understand. (I'm pretty sure the cathedral is high, though. Aren't they all?)
In my meanderings around the CofE – I have found in every church that can muster a choir it is robed. In fact one of said churches was described by the area dean as ‘snake belly low’ and it also sung responses..
Also I only know one church where the vicar does not wear vestments for main Sunday worship as a matter of course.
Neither of these make an accurate judge, of highness or lowness…
To me it is a combination of factors that make the call, and I have found that Middle of the road churches may have a pick and mix of things that might be described as high or low.
Though if a go to a church that uses incense then to me that is definitely high…
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Even with incense, there are degrees. Wafting some around before the start of the service is a little different from censing the altar a specified number of times at a particular point in the service.
Where does the use of bells during consecration fall on this scale?
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
At what point does something become "low"? And from whose perspective? A few years ago I attended the Sunday Eucharist at Manchester Cathedral. An Anglo Catholic friend of mine who was also there complained that the service was "too happy clappy". OK, so Manchester doesn't go in for the level of pomp and ceremony that some other cathedrals do, but it was still a formal and dignified service with the choir singing a choral mass setting. Happy clappy it certainly was not!
[ 02. February 2014, 16:39: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Even with incense, there are degrees. Wafting some around before the start of the service is a little different from censing the altar a specified number of times at a particular point in the service.
Yes but then there is high and very high
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
Hello all. I am mystery worshipper Sipech. Just to answer a few questions and clarify. I use the terms "high" and "low" as a very loose idea, solely to give a general impression. I have no interest into getting into an anal argument about ranking churches.
As South Coast Kevin correctly states, Christianity is a great and varied thing. If one were to look solely at the church of England, then you would miss a great wealth of different expressions.
If someone were to tell me that their church is "low" I wouldn't expect any liturgical chanting or for those leading the service to be dressed up in special clothes. Denominations which might fit this bill could include Assemblies of God, New Frontiers or Elim.
Compared to these, Anglicanism might well be considered "higher", but not to be imagined as in any way superior to these different expressions. They are just different as tomatoes are different to aubergines; neither one is inherently better than another, they just taste different.
If one were to narrow in on just one denomination, then of course there are differences. I have been to some that might be considered "lower" such as All Souls, Langham Place or St Mary's, Luton. This was just more formal and "religious" than other Anglican churches I have been to.
I did not use the term "anglo-catholic" as that implies what a church's theology is like; which might not be clear from one visit. Though theology and praxis are linked, one should be careful not to conflate the two.
Gamaliel seems to have misunderstood my use of "religion" and its cognates. In this area, I confess to being heavily influenced by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. For a exposition more eloquent than I could imagine, see his letters to Eberhard Bethge from 30th April & 18 May 1944.
In closing, it was nice to visit a church from the different end of the ecclesiastic spectrum once every month or two. It is a habit I picked up as a teenager. I wish more people would do it. From time to time, I read/hear criticisms of groups of churches from those who have never been to the kind of churches they are so critical of. It's even happened on these boards occasionally. If we step out of our own bubbles occasionally and visit our brethren, I think that's all for the best.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, I'd go along with Bonhoeffer but I think you may have missed the point of what I was saying.
I think your use of the term 'religion' is unnecessarily judgemental in this context. 'These people are guilty of religiosity. I am not.'
There's an implicit judgement in there.
Take the plank out of your own eye.
I can see what you're getting at the kind of broad distinctions you've made between what you consider 'low' and what you consider 'high'.
I would suggest that the terms 'low church' and 'high church' don't really apply outside of an Anglican context - although there is possibly a distinction to be made within Roman Catholicism along similar lines to a certain extent.
Originally, the term was used to refer to whether people had a 'high' view of the authority of the Church or a 'low' one - ie. either a 'high' view of tradition and a 'lower' view of scripture - or vice versa.
Hence you could be 'High and Dry' - ie, both High Church and rather Calvinistic and with a high view of scripture AND tradition. Plenty of 17th century examples of that.
In terms of the way you've used it in your otherwise unexceptionable MW report, I'd suggest it was misleading.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
You seem to be reading things into an honest report that are not there. Your ad hominems are as unjustified as they are unnecessary.
I went in, sat through the service and wrote up my observations that afternoon. If it was not quite as exciting as you'd hoped, then there is nothing I can do about that. I would not be willing to falsify a report or present an opinion which I didn't hold.
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
The church I am currently attending has incense on festival days like today but I certainly wouldn't describe the service as formal and dignified.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
The MWer didn't make it absolutely clear, either in the report or in their post above, that they were from a non-Anglican background, but I assumed that. You can't expect an outsider to have an awareness of the subtle gradations in churchpersonship, especially as they are rarely consistent. i.e. one church might have a robed choir and north-end celebration; another might have Benediction every week with lots of 'happy-clappy' style choruses at other times... etc etc. It's hard enough for those of us who are insiders to get the hang of it all.
From the MW report it seems the worship at St Barnabas is fairly formal and middle-of-the-road, very possibly more formal than the local RC church though it is far from anglo-catholic. So to a nonconformist observer it would appear to be 'high church'.
Many middle of the road Anglicans who haven't travelled much seem to use 'high church' as an expression of disapproval for anything different from what they are used to. They are as likely to use the term for a priest who celebrates in scarf and hood at the north end of the Table, as for one who wears a biretta and a fiddleback.
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
I went in, sat through the service and wrote up my observations that afternoon. If it was not quite as exciting as you'd hoped, then there is nothing I can do about that. I would not be willing to falsify a report or present an opinion which I didn't hold.
Fair enough and I appreciate that the church was of a tradition you are unfamiliar with. No criticism there, as I sometimes attend churches outside my own tradition and find their practices alien, but even if I'm uncomfortable with it, I try to be respectful and to understand what is going on.
I'm sure this wasn't your intention, but coming from the Catholic end of the spectrum, I found your comment about the curate "randomly bobbing her head from time to time around the paraphernalia on the table" as bordering on being offensive. I realise that it must have looked very strange to you, it also shows a lack of understanding and respect. If I were to attend a charismatic service and described the worship as "people randomly shouting gibberish" that would be just as offensive to the very sincere and faithful people worshipping there.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
If I were to attend a charismatic service and described the worship as "people randomly shouting gibberish" that would be just as offensive to the very sincere and faithful people worshipping there.
No, I think 'people randomly shouting gibberish' would be fair comment; if no one has explained what's going on then ISTM fair enough to describe it as gibberish. Just like if no one explained (e.g. in a service book or leaflet for newcomers, if not from the front / stage) what the bobbing of the head is about then I think TheAlethiophile's phrase was also fair comment.
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I sympathise with the MWer. From what you've said on this thread, TheAlethiophile, you wanted to describe worship that had some of the outward expressions of Anglican Catholicism, without wanting to imply that the church's teaching actually matched. This was precisely something I attempted to look at in a Purgatory thread not long ago. I felt I wasn't successful precisely because I felt people kept coming back to the "trappings" rather than focusing on what really constituted an Anglo-catholic ethos. Perhaps I was wrong: perhaps it is only the outward appearances that define us.
But I think you put your finger on the one question I keep coming back to: what';s the difference between an Anglo-catholic and a liberal in snazzy vestments?
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
One CofE church I know has choirs (more than one, I think) in surplices. I once referred to this church as 'high' to another CofE vicar who knew this church well but was herself appointed elsewhere. From her expression she seemed not to agree with my use of the word.
I once attended another CofE church that struck me as evangelical due to its taped worship songs and a spot of arm-waving; but the vicar was in vestments. I found that a strange combination.
Basically, I'm not in the CofE and find its varieties of churchmanship difficult to understand. (I'm pretty sure the cathedral is high, though. Aren't they all?)
Coventry Cathedral is not high at all, moderately evangelical. I'd imagine there are other cathedrals of historically low dioceses that are the same.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
All Church of England parishes secretly believe themselves to be MOTR.
In a CofE context (and its hardly relevant anywhere else) the one unfailing sign of "high" is calling the priest "father"
1662 and congregational chanting used to be indicators of conservative evangelicslism. I think that changed in the 70s or 80s.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Liverpool cathedral is 'low' in that vesture for the eucharist is surplice and stole, with cope on Sundays. They tend to have fewer servers than most, but with additional quasi-vergers who wear strange art deco robes in lurid colours. Otherwise the liturgy and music is fairly standard Cathedral stuff.
Being in an evangelical diocese there are many other things happening which could be described as 'evangelical', but not in a specifically theological way. The former Dean (now ABC) welcomed a Walsingham festival to the cathedral involving much incense and veneration of the Blessed Sacrament.
[edited to clarify that I'm talking about the cathedral, since Ken crossposted between Jade and myself...
Commenting on Ken: quote:
In a CofE context (and its hardly relevant anywhere else) the one unfailing sign of "high" is calling the priest "father"
... or Mother.
[ 02. February 2014, 21:47: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
'If someone were to tell me that their church is "low" I wouldn't expect any liturgical chanting or for those leading the service to be dressed up in special clothes. '
As current canon law says CofE clergy must robe for their services. The wearing of robes is not an indicator of low/high - though what robes they were is a different matter.......... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Coventry Cathedral is not high at all, moderately evangelical. I'd imagine there are other cathedrals of historically low dioceses that are the same.
Actually, I was thinking of St. Philip's in Birmingham. I'd be interested to know how a well-travelled CofE person would categorise the churchmanship there.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
'If someone were to tell me that their church is "low" I wouldn't expect any liturgical chanting or for those leading the service to be dressed up in special clothes. '
As current canon law says CofE clergy must robe for their services. The wearing of robes is not an indicator of low/high - though what robes they were is a different matter..........
Those who break the rules on robes are definitely easy to distinguish as being low, though ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
All Church of England parishes secretly believe themselves to be MOTR. ...
That gets a ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
You seem to be reading things into an honest report that are not there.
I think what Gamaliel is "reading things into" is the phrase "all the formalism of religiosity".
Religiosity is usually used in a negative sense. It usually refers to some strict sense of legalism in observance that lacks any genuine commitment.
Perhaps that isn't what you intended.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
All Church of England parishes secretly believe themselves to be MOTR.
Mine doesn't
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Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
I don't think our parish would describe itself as MOTR but rather "gentle Tractarian with baroque overtones". This with three sacred ministers in birettas and maniples, exclusively eastward celebration, Our Lady wearing a pretty veil during Christmas and Easter, etc.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'll accept that my comments verged on the ad hominem The Alethiophile, and I apologise for that ...
However, mdijon has nailed it. There was implicit criticism of the 'religiosity' of the participants that bordered equally on the ad hominem ...
In my experience, people from certain non-conformist and 'new church' backgrounds consider more 'formal' or less 'enthusiastic' Christians to be 'religious' but don't apply the same epithet to themselves when it comes to their own practices and attitudes. I'm suggesting that these are equally 'religious' but in a different way.
'Who can discern his errors?'
There was also your comment about it being 'joyless' - which may simply mean that it was sober and dignified. But it may also mean that it actually was joyless ...
Although such things tend to be in the eye of the beholder to a certain extent. 'These people aren't smiling or beaming beatifically, therefore they must be joyless ...'
Also, I didn't say that your MW report was 'unexceptional' but 'unexceptionable' ie. little there to take exception to - other than the things I had taken exception to ...
There is a difference, and I apologise if I hadn't made myself clear.
I'm certainly not knocking your attitude in attending and sitting through something that clearly wasn't your bag ... full marks for doing so.
I also don't envy you having to write that particular MW report as there didn't seem to be an awful lot to 'go at' - I'd have struggled to write one there too, I must admit.
So, please, don't get me wrong - I think there are elements to applaud in your approach and treatment of this subject but at the same time I agree with Spike, that your attitude towards the curate 'nodding' and so on before the 'paraphernalia' could be taken to be offensive by those for whom such gestures are important.
I take Spike's point and second it.
I also find myself with some degree of sympathy for SCK - despite clashing with him at times over issues to do with worship and liturgy etc.
I have seen handy hand-outs and leafets at quite high-church or high-MOTR Anglican churches which show and explain what's going on - even with convenient diagrams showing the postures and gestures with descriptions of what they are intended to convey.
I think that's a good thing to do.
As for the 'tongues' instance that Spike cites - I've been in gatherings where attempts have been made to explain what's going on for the benefit of new comers. It doesn't work.
I remember one Sunday after a Luis Palau crusade when a whole bunch of people turned up at our charismatic church having been allocated/assigned there by the 'counsellors' after they'd 'gone forward' at the crusade.
There was an extended time of speaking/singing in tongues and the pastor tried to explain what was going on for the benefit of the newcomers.
None of them were there the following Sunday.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
I don't think our parish would describe itself as MOTR but rather "gentle Tractarian with baroque overtones".
I don't know your parish, Thurible, but either you have a highly clued up congregation who spend all their waking hours on this board, or your description would only be recognised by the clergy and a few enthusiasts.
For the average Anglican in the pew, especially those who have been in the same pew most of their lives, 'Church of England' is what their church does and hence = MOTR.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
Oh, indeed. We were never the advanced parish, though, and the general view would be that we're high but not too high...
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I don't want to be in the middle of the road. I want to be going forward.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As for the 'tongues' instance that Spike cites - I've been in gatherings where attempts have been made to explain what's going on for the benefit of new comers. It doesn't work.
I remember one Sunday after a Luis Palau crusade when a whole bunch of people turned up at our charismatic church having been allocated/assigned there by the 'counsellors' after they'd 'gone forward' at the crusade.
There was an extended time of speaking/singing in tongues and the pastor tried to explain what was going on for the benefit of the newcomers.
None of them were there the following Sunday.
Perhaps this is a good argument for keeping newcomers in a separate environment for a while. After all, even the Alpha course doesn't introduce people to speaking in tongues straight away.
The church environment, whether high, low or anything else, is an acquired taste. Unless people come to faith as a direct result of admiring and feeling at home in a particular kind of church culture, it's always going to be difficult to integrate converts into the life of the church, I think.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
For Methodists, particularly United Methodists, we're nosebleed high, and trending higher. Honestly, I don't know one other UM pastor in my annual conference who regularly wears cassock, surplice, and scarf for non-Eucharistic services, or cassock, alb, and stole (and occasionally chasuble) for Eucharistic ones. I suspect Canterbury UMC in Birmingham uses albs (or at least has in the past), but I'm not certain.
For Anglicans, particularly Episcopalians, we're laughably on the low end of middle.
For our friends across the street, the Baptists and the Congregationalists, we might as well be on the moon. I wonder if some of them think we worship Mary and the Pope.
What I'm getting at is that High-Middle-Low language is relative, and subjective. As the Altimeter thread demonstrated, there is no real way to objectively rate these things, because there are so many variables and so many subjective opinions.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I get the impression that American Methodism is broader than the British variety.
The British Methodist circuit system combined with a shortage of staff and finances means that each minister will have to care for several churches at once, and that local preachers appear far more often in a given pulpit than a minister. Moreover, ministers are stationed for only 5 years at a time, which isn't really long enough to change the overall character of a church. (Renewals are possible, but not inevitable.) All this means that the churches in a single circuit are unlikely to be very different from each other. Or rather, their differences have more to do with social, ethnic or financial factors rather than churchmanship.
I was a Methodist church steward, but never heard much discussion at all about churchmanship among Methodists. Reference was sometimes made to 'evangelicals', but in my circuit there was never any talk to the effect that such and such a church was evangelical. 'The Methodist Recorder' newspaper doesn't seem to spend time categorising churches in this way either.
BTW, what does 'nosebleed high' mean?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
so high you get a nosebleed (as in altitude)
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I don't want to be in the middle of the road. I want to be going forward.
You can be going forward if you are in the middle of the road. On the other hand there is a greater risk of being squashed by people driving in either direction.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
The only way is up (the candle)!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Perhaps this is a good argument for keeping newcomers in a separate environment for a while. After all, even the Alpha course doesn't introduce people to speaking in tongues straight away.
The church environment, whether high, low or anything else, is an acquired taste. Unless people come to faith as a direct result of admiring and feeling at home in a particular kind of church culture, it's always going to be difficult to integrate converts into the life of the church, I think.
Well, yes, people are 'socialised' into the kingdom ... hence the use of a lengthy period of catechesis in the early Church.
Whatever form or 'style' of church we're talking about, people have to become acclimatised and accustomed to it.
That's fine, if we recognise that, but in certain charismatic circles there's an expectation that people are going to get 'zapped' and get it all in one fell swoop ...
As for the Alpha course, my contention would be that the tongues element is introduced at the stage in the process that it is, in order to up the ante and ratchet things up a notch or two ...
The only people likely to hang around after its introduction are those who are susceptible to such things. Everyone else would have cleared off ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Gamaliel
I suppose every church has to be true to its itself. If people are going to leave, they'll leave.
Put very crudely, the kinds of churches you've mentioned are often more proactive when it comes to evangelism. As a result, they get first dibs when it comes to introducing people to Christianity. ISTM that unchurched people who might prefer a high church spirituality won't become aware of that until they've been through the other sort first - if they stay in the churchy scene for long enough.
I don't know if there's a solution to this problem, because the churches just do what they do. Pentecostal churches may gradually become less Pentecostal, but I'm not convinced that this really helps the high churches become more attractive to people.
[ 04. February 2014, 15:02: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Isn't it one of those irregular verbs? I am Anglo-Catholic. He is High Church. She is a liberal in snazzy vestments.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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