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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Mass Booklets vs using the BCP
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Meesothorny
Apprentice
# 17603
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Posted
I appreciate that using mass booklets instead of the BCP streamlines worship for visitors, but I feel like the BCP is part of my Anglican heritage and I miss using it during the service.
Thoughts?
Posts: 3 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2013
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Is this a question about the thing that you hold and read, or the actual service?
If the mass booklet has a different service from the BCP, is this a questions about nostalgia ("what we have always done") or about the actual form of the service?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Meesothorny
Apprentice
# 17603
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Posted
It is all copied from the BCP. For awhile now, we have been printing the service and hymns sequentially in a booklet at every mass rather than using the BCP. Apparently the BCP is too "difficult" for visitors, parents with small children, etc. to follow. After mass, all these little booklets are tossed into the recycle bin.
Posts: 3 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2013
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
We give out both. We give out Common Worship along with a booklet with the readings and prayers that will be used.
I guess that is worse in a way as you need to rifle through two lots of paperwork. But having said that I tend to not bother with either. Like 99% of our congregation we know the words off by heart and listen to the readings rather than read them.
We keep the booklets in the loft until the next time they are used. We reprint them when they are too tatty to use.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
I totally agree, Meesothorny. We started printing out the whole service (except the hymns, for which we still use the Hymnal, and the readings, which come on a pre-printed insert) several years ago when I was the Parish Administrator.
Supposedly it was to make the service easier for visitors, but if someone can't find a page in a Prayer Book when they're listed in the bulletin, I don't know how they manage to find their way to our church. And now people will never learn how to follow a BCP service or to discover all of the other treasures therein. God help them if they ever attend an Episcopal service elsewhere!
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Surely this should be in Ecclesiantics. However, pending the arrival of a host with removal van, here's my pennorth.
I think the addiction of Anglican congregations to following every word of the service on paper is destructive of real liturgy. It's as if theatregoers sat with their noses buried in the script rather than watched the play.
Texts that the whole congregation say together should be minimal, and easily memorised. Readers and presiders should be expected to speak clearly and intelligibly so that the congregation shouldn't need the text in front of them in order to follow. So all you need is a short 'crib sheet', with simple directions aimed at newcomers to indicate what is going on.
Books, whether a purpose-designed booklet or the official BCP or equivalent, are a distraction and unnecessary except for those planning or leading the worship. It's even worse when people don't follow the official liturgy but insist on making up their own versions and showering people with liturgical confetti. Or projecting everything onto huge screens which divert attention from what is going on at the altar. But let's not go there.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
At my main parish (charismatic evo) the liturgy is projected onto screens.
At the other parish I attend (just evo) it's printed onto laminated cards that are given out upon entry. People either leave them behind on the pews or on a table in the church lobby. There are a variety to cover most main service types.
Both seem to address the issue of wasting paper by not issuing new pamphlets or sheets for each service.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Recent experience suggests here, in a place where there is little familiarity with traditions and liturgy is that when "mass booklets*" are printed out, various bits of liturgy are left out, reworded and changed.
*mass booklets: called here "pew leaflets" or "bulletin"; actually new heard the term mass booklet before. Common usage: Priest: "responses are printed in your bulletin". Bulletin being the more common usage.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
We keep the booklets in the loft until the next time they are used. We reprint them when they are too tatty to use.
Well done. Like the greater part of Christendom we keep ours for three months after they are too tatty to use, then we reprint them.
"Good morning, is this your first visit? Oh, let me find you one that's less stained."
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Booklets - we printed them ages ago and people must be very careful, because they are still going. Unlike the commercially produced hymn books which started falling to bits very quickly!
Some people have started using on-screen Liturgy, which looks too much like a work seminar to me!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Recent experience suggests here, in a place where there is little familiarity with traditions and liturgy is that when "mass booklets*" are printed out, various bits of liturgy are left out, reworded and changed.
*mass booklets: called here "pew leaflets" or "bulletin"; actually new heard the term mass booklet before. Common usage: Priest: "responses are printed in your bulletin". Bulletin being the more common usage.
So I'm not the only one who gets a little suspicious when they print out all the words. Good to hear.
I was at St. Thomas 5th Ave for a Lessons and Carols service about five years ago, and to save people flipping through the hymnal, they had everything in the leaflet. But to save paper, they only printed the melody line. So in order to sing my part, I had to spend five minutes before the service looking through hymn tune name index in the back of the hymnal and penciling in the hymn number in my leaflet so that it would be handy when the time to sing came.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Surely this should be in Ecclesiantics. However, pending the arrival of a host with removal van, here's my pennorth.
Hosts are looking at this very point; meanwhile carry on here for the time being.
B62, Purg Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
I am amazed that you make up booklets that are then thrown away after service.
Is the cost of replacing and reprinting all the paper justified/ Is there no way to have the repeated bits with the notation "Hymn at this time" added? You must have somewhere to show the hymn numbers up on the wall.
And the sheer effort, time and energy spent must be significant - or do you have properly-paid servants to do all that useless work?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
And the sheer effort, time and energy spent must be significant - or do you have properly-paid servants to do all that useless work?
You have a pretty consistent shell to begin with, and from there it is cutting and pasting, just like you do with a normal leaflet every week. Probably a bit more work, but I can't imagine it is significantly more work.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
I am amazed that you make up booklets that are then thrown away after service.
Is the cost of replacing and reprinting all the paper justified/ Is there no way to have the repeated bits with the notation "Hymn at this time" added? You must have somewhere to show the hymn numbers up on the wall.
And the sheer effort, time and energy spent must be significant - or do you have properly-paid servants to do all that useless work?
The ones at my church (which I designed several years ago) fit on an 11" x 17" sheet of paper, folded in thirds. So it's only one sheet of paper to be tossed in the recycle bin each week. We have no hymn boards, so the hymn numbers and other music are listed in the service leaflet. And actually, once I had set up the basic formats (e.g., one for each Eucharistic Prayer), it was no more work each week than the outline-type bulletins we'd been using.
But I never considered myself properly-paid!
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I think the addiction of Anglican congregations to following every word of the service on paper is destructive of real liturgy. It's as if theatregoers sat with their noses buried in the script rather than watched the play.
Abso-bloody-lutely. I'm amazed how many people attend our church almost every Sunday, but still can't manage "and also with you" (not BCP) on cue without referring to their notes.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Please remain seated while this thread is moved to Ecclesiantics
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I think the addiction of Anglican congregations to following every word of the service on paper is destructive of real liturgy. It's as if theatregoers sat with their noses buried in the script rather than watched the play.
Abso-bloody-lutely. I'm amazed how many people attend our church almost every Sunday, but still can't manage "and also with you" (not BCP) on cue without referring to their notes.
Or priests who don't know their part for that matter.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Or priests who insist on interrupting the liturgy to say things like 'the service begins on page 1'
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Reading out page numbers made sense when we used books, especially for the Psalm and Eucharistic prayer, which involved flipping forwards and then back through the book. But announcing which page we are on in a 16 page booklet, where we work through from p.1 to p.16 in order - that's absolutely nuts!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Or priests who insist on interrupting the liturgy to say things like 'the service begins on page 1'
Or..... "Now we will sing hymn number 311 We pray thee heavenly Father to hear us in thy love which you will find in the green hymnal."
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Or priests who insist on interrupting the liturgy to say things like 'the service begins on page 1'
Ah, Angloid, you've found one of my pet hates. "Let us now confess our faith by reciting together the Nicene Creed, as found on page 358 of the Book of Common Prayer - that's the red book in your pews."
Now, I'm all in favour of making the service as accessible as possible to newcomers, but this clumsy signposting can't be the best way.
Upthread, Gwai describes her confusing book-flipping experience, and that was as a lifelong churchgoer from a different tradition. It must be even worse for unchurched newcomers or visitors.
So I think a printed booklet is probably the least bad solution, and the most inclined to get people's noses out of their assortment of paperwork.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
As long as it also gets priests out of the habit of unnecessary announcements, which as Chorister suggests is not always easy, even with booklets.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Or priests who insist on interrupting the liturgy to say things like 'the service begins on page 1'
Or,'and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them saying, we turn the page...'
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
I am amazed that you make up booklets that are then thrown away after service.
Is the cost of replacing and reprinting all the paper justified/ Is there no way to have the repeated bits with the notation "Hymn at this time" added? You must have somewhere to show the hymn numbers up on the wall.
And the sheer effort, time and energy spent must be significant - or do you have properly-paid servants to do all that useless work?
We've been doing it since we moved from BCP to ASB. Its not that hard.
Time taken to put together a liturgy for Sunday morning, typically an hour to decide which hymns to use (always the hardest part), half an hour to make up a text file with whatever selected bits we're using, the hymns, and the readings (this is all cut and paste), half an hour to an hour to transfer the text to an MS Word file since everyone wants that format.
And, worst of all, another hour to two hours if the vicar insists on printing the thing in a stupid format with the fold down the middle of the long side A4 rather than the short side making an A5 booklet. The reason it takes so much longer is that it needs far more jiggling around to get headers in the right place and to avoid breaking sentences or prayers (or even words ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) ) across a page, and Word is crap at non-standard formats. But some of the clergy insist on it. I don't know why, maybe it was all the rage when they were at college.
My pet hate in this context? People who put together service sheets without taking care to get the layout right, or even sensible.
My even petter hate? Clergy who take the word file of the service sheet I spent two or three hours laying out and insert some stupid graphic or silly joke or last-minute notice at the last minute before printing it and so completely mess it up.
But deciding on the words is not the hard part. That takes half an hour. The only two real problems are Microsoft Word and type-blind vicars.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But deciding on the words is not the hard part. That takes half an hour. The only two real problems are Microsoft Word and type-blind vicars.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) I wouldn't inflict either of those on you.
But as for the variable formats, surely you could get the various clergy to agree on a standard format? After all, it is the church's liturgy and not theirs.
The only argument in favour of A4 longways is when you have traditional pews with narrow 'hymnbook' ledges. A5 booklets have a habit of falling off.
I get infuriated with people (usually clergy) who have no sense of design or legibility and have line breaks and section headings in totally inappropriate places.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
*mass booklets: called here "pew leaflets" or "bulletin"; actually new heard the term mass booklet before. Common usage: Priest: "responses are printed in your bulletin". Bulletin being the more common usage.
I would say that there is a difference, especially in Anglican shacks, between a bulletin and a Mass booklet (or the more RC-sounding term, missalette). A bulletin, in addition to the typical parish announcements and information, generally contains a summary of the liturgy, including BCP page numbers, and hymn numbers from the hymnal. (One of the complaints about this format is that visitors may not know what the names of the various prayers and parts of the Mass are, making it difficult to tell where in the agenda one is at a given moment.) A Mass booklet, OTOH, usually lists every word of the Mass, with the possible exception of hymns. This is done to minimize flipping around in a prayer book, and to include non-BCP prayers that a parish msy use as part of their liturgy (such as offertory prayers, extra salutations, Orate, fratres, etc.).
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Wm Dewy
Shipmate
# 16712
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Meesothorny:
...the BCP is part of my Anglican heritage and I miss using it during the service.
I agree with the use of the BCP in the pews. I strongly dislike service sheets because when people become accustomed to them they become quite unable to find their way around the Prayer Book.
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"And harmoniums and barrel - organs be miserable--what shall I call 'em ? - miserable machines for such a divine thing as music!"
Posts: 216 | From: Indiana USA | Registered: Oct 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
But in England, for the Holy Communion, the 1662 Book of Common Prayer is hopelessly complicated, with three long admonitions printed, as I seem to remember, in an illogical position.
And it is rarely celebrated exactly as printed.
Evensong is a bit better from the opening versicle to the third collect, but I can't remember ever having it celebrated complete with penitential sentences and state prayers for a very long time.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Evensong is a bit better from the opening versicle to the third collect, but I can't remember ever having it celebrated complete with penitential sentences and state prayers for a very long time.
I produced an evensong leaflet which begins at the preces and ends with the 3rd collect.
My only announcement, for the sake of a number of students who come, is before the introit - 'Everything you need to know is on the yellow leaflet...'
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I think the addiction of Anglican congregations to following every word of the service on paper is destructive of real liturgy. It's as if theatregoers sat with their noses buried in the script rather than watched the play.
Abso-bloody-lutely. I'm amazed how many people attend our church almost every Sunday, but still can't manage "and also with you" (not BCP) on cue without referring to their notes.
Or priests who don't know their part for that matter.
I recall a clerical friend with some liturgical expertise saying that the best advice he ever had as a curate was never to rely on his memory. His rector's words, still imprinted, were "We're not as sharp as we like to think."
From the lay side, if they heard the traditional response in the first years of their worshipping lives, that response is likely hardwired in a sense only alterable by neurological treatment. I have noticed that many lay worshippers want to have the text in front of them, although a few liturgy geeks pride themselves on not needing a text. As an aside, my Orthodox friends tell me that visitors' anxious desire for texts is a source of amusement for them-- one answer being that they've not had a need for them for the past few millennia.
While I am generally a fan of having the BCP in the pews (nothing like the historical prefaces when bored during sermons, as well as the perverse delights of the prohibited degrees of marriage or, during fits of morbidity or fantasy, the funeral or marriage services), I have seen enough visitors like Gwai, and the arcaneness of finding the right place can, for them, outweigh the arcaneness of any aspect of the service or the clergy's vesture.
However, I don't know if a weekly production item is necessary. A matching format hymn sheet could easily be handed to the worshipper on entrance along with a multi-use booklet, minimizing the number of trees which must suffer martyrdom for the liturgy. Layout and printing could be contracted on a deanery or diocesan basis, saving a bit of cash and avoiding the peculiar clerical fondness for Word.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Wm Dewy
Shipmate
# 16712
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Posted
One parish I know once used a nice single sheet seasonal leaflet which listed just the outline of the service: page numbers for the Prayer Book and Hymnal (for the service music) and directions to “see Hymn Board” for the parts which changed weekly. Each edition of the bulletin would list upcoming events – e.g. the Lent bulletin listed the Holy Week services—and names of vestry members and other info. People could leave them at church or take them home if they liked. After a month or six weeks, they were replaced with the next season’s bulletin.
In contrast, my present parish I uses separate multi page bulletins for each service. The outline is on the front, but the lessons and psalms are buried in later pages of the document. It takes more fidgeting.
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I recall a clerical friend with some liturgical expertise saying that the best advice he ever had as a curate was never to rely on his memory. His rector's words, still imprinted, were "We're not as sharp as we like to think."
Just so. My rector more often than not uses an offertory sentence from memory which goes, “Offer to God A sacrifice of thanksgiving, and make good thy vows unto his Most High.” to which I generally add “name” under my breath from my place in the congregation.
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"And harmoniums and barrel - organs be miserable--what shall I call 'em ? - miserable machines for such a divine thing as music!"
Posts: 216 | From: Indiana USA | Registered: Oct 2011
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Meesothorny:
I appreciate that using mass booklets instead of the BCP streamlines worship for visitors, but I feel like the BCP is part of my Anglican heritage and I miss using it during the service.
Thoughts?
Fairly recently I visited a service and used the BCP instead of the helpfully provided booklet. Partly out of a sense of pride that I could handle it. If there wasn't someone next to me to help provide guidance I would have been incredibly lost. Next time I plan on using the booklet and would do so until I became comfortable with the BCP.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
A few times I've lent my bulletin to a straggler/latecomer and gotten some baffled looks when I pull out the BCP to read my half of the psalm!
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Quam Dilecta
Shipmate
# 12541
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Posted
I have fond memories of country churches where the Prayer Books were kept on a shelf at the back of the nave, to be picked up by those who wanted one.
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Blessd are they that dwell in thy house
Posts: 406 | From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I used to take my own personal BCP to church as a child. It had all the hymns in the back as well. It was a present from one of my godparents, so very much valued.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I used to take my own personal BCP to church as a child. It had all the hymns in the back as well. It was a present from one of my godparents, so very much valued.
I just responded to your post on the Disciple thread in Circus by saying "Me too," and I'm responding the same way to this one! Only I think my BCP/Hymnal was a gift from my parents.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
I don't know about Common Worship or 1662, but the American BCP (1979), especially Rite II, involves a fair amount of jumping around. The Eucharist is in one section, except for the Prayers of the People, etc., so we use bulletins printed each week with pretty much the whole liturgy. We recycle, but even so I'd like to go through fewer trees. On the other hand, we have a service using the 1928 BCP, and one fellow who occasionally attends that finds himself totally confused even though the 1928 rite reads pretty much straight through!
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Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
I don't know about Common Worship or 1662, but the American BCP (1979), especially Rite II, involves a fair amount of jumping around.
The former two, more so if anything I think.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
Because we use the American Missal, the core of the service is the BCP (US) 1928--but there are additions. We have booklets in the pews that contain the entire ordinary text of the Missal service as we do it, with one-sheet handouts that contain the propers of the day. That way there's less bewildered shuffling around. In theory, anyway.
Of course, unchurched visitors and people who aren't used to formal liturgy still get lost. That's where having a parish full of people who are aware of visitors and ready to help them comes in.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
But surely you can participate without the words in front of you? The basic texts of mass are the same, whatever language or translation are used. I was at an Extraordinary Rite RC mass in France recently, and although a French translations of the readings was useful, I knew what was going on.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Prester John
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# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Of course, unchurched visitors and people who aren't used to formal liturgy still get lost. That's where having a parish full of people who are aware of visitors and ready to help them comes in.
Maybe it's OK for visitors to be a bit lost at first and for us not to expect them to participate fully, as long as the congregation is welcoming and helpful.
I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation. Partial participation isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
But surely you can participate without the words in front of you? The basic texts of mass are the same, whatever language or translation are used. I was at an Extraordinary Rite RC mass in France recently, and although a French translations of the readings was useful, I knew what was going on.
Indeed, venbede, this has been very useful for me when travelling, but I know the (Canadian) BCP well and from that, the Novus Ordo is really easily accessible. While churchgoers in a non-liturgical tradition can usually get along with hymns and readings, and are presumably not too terribly totally lost, folks who are not churchgoers at all are usually lost and sometimes nervous-- fearful that they might commit some faux pas in this new environment-- and I think it's reasonable to support them when we can.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Of course, unchurched visitors and people who aren't used to formal liturgy still get lost. That's where having a parish full of people who are aware of visitors and ready to help them comes in.
Maybe it's OK for visitors to be a bit lost at first and for us not to expect them to participate fully, as long as the congregation is welcoming and helpful.
I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation. Partial participation isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Quite. On Sunday in church an elderly lady, who had not been before, was sitting in front of me. She had been given a large print hymnbook and service sheet, so I leaned over and offered to find her the page. She thanked me, but said something about 'not having her glasses with her' and she would rather just listen. Whether she indeed had eyesight problems, or was illiterate, was irrelevant; she seemed quite happy just to sit there (or occasionally stand) and take in what was going on. If she had been made to feel that she was missing out by not following every word, I wouldn't expect to see her again. As it is, I think we might.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
If she had been made to feel that she was missing out by not following every word, I wouldn't expect to see her again. As it is, I think we might.
Thanks for saying that. The brigade that reckon we must make sure that any strangers can follow absolutely the entire text in a book, don't seem to realise how inadequate that will make strangers feel.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
On the other hand, it's perfectly good sense to make texts available for those who want them. And in the C of E that means a booklet giving the options chosen from the many available in the book.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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