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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Archbishop decrees an end to eulogies
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
As it says on the label.
At first I was startled by the archbishop's boldness - until I read further and found some fudginess. "Words of Remembrance" are still permitted, though restricted.
At a recent service at my shack, there were three eulogists. The first was about seven minutes long. The second doubled that. The third doubled the second one. And that was BEFORE the eternity that was the slideshow. The family had been advised that "two songs, forty pictures" was a reasonable rule of thumb for a slide show, which they accommodated by playing the second song as many times as was needed to get through the hundreds of pictures.
Though not Catholic, I am tempted to borrow the archbishop's rules about "Words of Remembrance" and publicize them as widely as possible.
Horror stories? Comments?
[ 22. February 2014, 18:08: Message edited by: Leaf ]
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Quam Dilecta
Shipmate
# 12541
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Posted
I am with the archbishop on this issue. Protracted reminiscing about the deceased belongs, not in church or the committal, but at a social gathering afterwards. Even for a public figure, a separate memorial gathering, with speeches lauding the person's achievements, is preferable to an interminable funeral.
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Blessd are they that dwell in thy house
Posts: 406 | From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Apr 2007
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
At the cathedral in Detroit where I became an Episcopalian, the then-Dean wouldn't allow eulogies in funerals either. He insisted that should happen at the social gathering. On a few occasions, he allowed them to happen before the service. I don't quite remember exactly how that worked, but it was like a prelude, just not on the organ.
I liked that, actually. It kept the religious character of the service front and center.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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Mama Thomas
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# 10170
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Posted
I totally agree. Like marriage vows and "I do" I think eulogies owe a lot to film and other media rather than to religion.
Sometimes people are delighted by not having them, it make them more Christian. The church isn't of one mind who a funeral is for: the dead, the living, both. Having a Christ centred funeral helps bring people to Christ. I have seen it again and again.
Once I was asked to officiate at a non-Episcopalian funeral of a man who committed suicide because he was gay and his family were foaming at the mouth fundies, who indeed spewed venom about the evils of homosexuality. A sermon about redemption offers hope and consolation whereas eulogies don't.
"Jesus, son of Mary" is a far better way to celebrate a funeral than "Wind Beneath My Wings".
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
The present Bishop of Sodor and Man has forbidden his clergy to give any kind of eulogy at funerals. "And if any of you dare to give me a eulogy at my funeral, I shall come back and haunt you," he thundered, as he gave his orders. Several of those present were tempted to reassure him that there was no danger of that happening....
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
I can see the theory. I also recognise that practices and assumptions about these things vary between countries. All the same, I think he's completely wrong. The funeral is for the deceased and the family, not the bishop. However much he'd rather have control over everything, if they wish to have eulogies - even if they wish to have 'Mum' written in flowers on the coffin, and a horse drawn glass hearse with plumes - he should lump it.
Current practice here, and now prescribed by Common Worship, is that the coffin arrives. You then have any eulogies, poems read by grandchildren etc first. After that the atmosphere switches and there are the readings, sermon committal etc.
True, that can get a bit long if there's a requiem mass. That's presumably always the case if the deceased was Catholic. But, you only die once, and the requiem won't be being done at a crem where they're itching to whisk one party out so the next one can arrive.
If he wants his clergy, who after all, have plenty of experience of funerals, to advise families not to overdo it, and not to go on too long, that's wise. But telling people they can only mourn the way he wants them to is well out of order, and pastorally insensitive.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
'Eulogies' are out, but some sort of potted life-story at the beginning of the service sets the context and makes clear that we are commending a real person, not an abstract nonentity, to God. The sermon slot should be confined to biblical preaching on the resurrection but put in the context of that person's life.
And Common Worship agrees with me.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
I am torn on this one; I have attended funerals in His Grace's diocese where the eulogies were quite startling-- one took a karoake format where members of the congregation were urged to come forth and sing the deceased's favourite songs. Another involved a reminiscence-dialogue between the deceased's wife and a woman friend who was well known to many to have had a Close and Abiding Friendship with the cadaver in question. That was entertaining, as was the series of reflections on another former colleague, although the 10-minute piece on how he had enhanced the productivity of his work unit by bringing an enhanced focus on sectoral goals and objectives might not have touched every heart there nor brought them to a deeper sense of the leading role of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
However, the most recent two funerals I attended produced a disciplined and affectionate eulogy, one of which gave a set of moving theological reflections.
Ottawa valley culture provides a venue for stories and tales about the deceased, and I suspect that I would prefer that to an incoherent address during a service. It is difficult for clerics to train and develop the intense feelings of grief and sorrow and anger to a more productive (and less whacko) use of the eulogy. I can't say that Msgr Prendergast is right, but I don't know if I can say that he is wrong.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
As one of the good bishop's flock, I am in total agreement with him.
Over the years I have found that eulogies at a funeral - even the canned service at funeral homes where a priest is nominally present but whose only function is to say the Lord's prayer and sometimes words of committal - that eulogies are an embarrassment to most outside of the immediate family and better saved for the knees-up after the funeral.
As a case in point, last fall I had the sad duty of saying farewell to two dear friends on consecutive days.
In the first, we had gatherings both before and after the funeral where stories were exchanged, tears and laughter abounded, and then we had a graveside committal according to the Anglican book of common prayer.
In the other the service was a half hour long and I'd guess about 28 minutes were eulogies.
I know which I preferred.
At my funeral, if I have anything to say about it, the eulogies will be either during the visitation period the night before or at the venue of the post-funeral reception. I long ago left a letter with explicit instructions with the executor of my last will - but separately from it.
This letter is not cast in stone. I tweak it every so often and supply the executor with a new copy.
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Even more so than I was before
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
But telling people they can only mourn the way he wants them to is well out of order, and pastorally insensitive.
He's not telling people how to mourn. He's reminding people what a Catholic funeral is. If you want a Catholic funeral, do it according to the rites. Do other things at other times.
We have a very similar policy in this diocese and it works very well. There are plenty of other opportunities for people to make speeches. In a way, it's a curious kind of clericalism to say that for something to be proper grieving it has to happen in a church with a priest sitting there watching it. Let the clergy preside other the rites assigned and do whatever else is helpful to process the grief separately.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
I say good on His Grace.
All too often now, the eulogies are the focus of any funeral, secular or religious. Frequently, those giving them have no idea of public speaking or of what should be conveyed in the eulogy. The talk rambles through well worn byways, often with only the name of the deceased varying.
But worse is the manner of delivery. Let's assume the speaker can manage the microphone, not something which can be taken for granted. Normally, the speaker is someone close to the deceased and deeply grieving. Sooner or later, there's a breakdown - a few gulps, position recovered but within 30 seconds, deep sobbing and an inability to continue. I'm not having a go at the speaker. What happens is an entirely normal and natural reaction. A grieving child should not be expected to carry out this sort of task.
What should happen is what Leo describes. The officiant gets out some details of the deceased's life beyond the merely formal. The sermon starts in the usual fashion with a brief dwelling on life vs death and so forth, all based if possible on one or other reading. There is some quick recitation of the details obtained relating these to what has gone before, back to the sermon proper, then the next part of the service. Family eulogies, slide shows and so forth can happen at the wake.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
What should happen is what Leo describes. The officiant gets out some details of the deceased's life beyond the merely formal.
I pretty much agree. I don't have my funeral book with me, but the introduction to the order of funerals does include in the list of things to preach on something like "how God's grace was revealed in the person being buried." It should be possible for a preacher to do that without turning the service into a canonization, but that's often too much for an untrained emotional eulogist.
I find that in a good funeral consult I can be helping the next of kin work through some grief and then mine that conversation for everything I need for the homily. It's normally just a matter of connecting dots for people. By now, I have a few standard go tos. Was being in the choir important to the deceased? Then celebrate the choirs of angels welcoming them into heaven. Did they love to cook and throw parties? Then celebrate the table God has spread for them and the place at the banquet he has prepared. I buried a glazier once, and preached on how God gives us windows to see His grace even when the world only sees sin and death.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
In the church culture I come from, eulogies and tributes at funerals are the norm. Not having them would be strange, and rather clinical. I don't see the eulogy as misplacing the religious aspect of the funeral, but as representing the fact that the spiritual life and the physical life go hand in hand, rather than each belonging in a separate sphere.
The British funeral in general is more formal and restrained than the type of funeral I attend, but I'm not sure that trying to re-emphasise the religious and reduce the personal aspects would be meaningful in a culture like ours where nominal religiosity is so low-key. It might please the clergy, but I'm not sure the mourners would be impressed, on the whole. I suppose it depends on the people concerned.
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moonlitdoor
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# 11707
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Posted
My mother died in 2012 and 2 people spoke briefly at her funeral, for about 3 minutes each. From my point of view these and a reading from Revelation were the best parts of the service. Unlike Hart's experience there were no other opportunities for such words to be spoken.
Although my mother was a lifelong church goer and so am I, I would rather have had a secular funeral than a minister who wouldn't allow anyone but him or herself to speak.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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earrings
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# 13306
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Posted
It really is possible to do both. To have a short eulogy/ tribute at the early part of the service, either given by a family member or me (having gleaned stuff from the family) thus briefly focussing on thanksgiving (or whatever) for the person who has died and then seamlessly moving on to Bible reading and address which focusses more on thanksgiving for Christian hope / how Jesus can help us in the depths of grief. It's almost always possible to take some aspect of the deceased to inform the choice of reading and approach in the address. It seems to work well, neither has to be long. At the council crematorium we are restricted to 20mins service within a half hour slot and a church service can be more relaxed, may have more hymns and can still be done in 40 minutes or a little less. It's still possible to be pastorally and theologically sensitive and real.
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My blog musings on all sorts of stuff https://priscillavicar.wordpress.com/
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
I would prefer if instead of a eulogy delivered orally, a written eulogy be included with the Order of Service. That way, before the actual funeral, people can read and reflect on that person's life.
An absolute no-no I received from my preaching instructor is to allow "open-mike" eulogies. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
That would call into question your competence as a Christian minister.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I would prefer if instead of a eulogy delivered orally, a written eulogy be included with the Order of Service. That way, before the actual funeral, people can read and reflect on that person's life.
We did this at my father's funeral - it was hugely appreciated by those who came, and gave us something to send to those who couldn't be there.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I would prefer if instead of a eulogy delivered orally, a written eulogy be included with the Order of Service. That way, before the actual funeral, people can read and reflect on that person's life.
An absolute no-no I received from my preaching instructor is to allow "open-mike" eulogies.
That would call into question your competence as a Christian minister.
I like that idea; even better if the officiant helps in the preparation with a quick check for grammar and spelling. With a few photos, it can be a good memorial of the deceased and saves all the troubles of an oral presentation.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
The present Bishop of Sodor and Man has forbidden his clergy to give any kind of eulogy at funerals. "And if any of you dare to give me a eulogy at my funeral, I shall come back and haunt you," he thundered, as he gave his orders. Several of those present were tempted to reassure him that there was no danger of that happening....
+Sodor & Man is the only bishop (apart from my own diocesan) whom I knew as a parish priest. I can easily see him giving such orders to his diocese... My best to +Robert and his family
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by earings;
quote:
It really is possible to do both.
Generally, in my experience when there is a eulogy the family talk about the deceased for five minutes or so, followed by me explaining about Our Lord defeating the powers of sin and death. If there isn't a a eulogy I talk about how Aunty Aud was a lovely person before moving into Our Lord defeating the powers of sin and death. AFAICS, people want to hear nice things about Aunty Aud and they ought to hear about the Gospel. It doesn't take the diplomatic skills of Talleyrand to make this happen. In the very worse case scenario where the family want to hogg the sermon time completely the liturgy ought to point them to our Lord and Saviour, in any event. A half decent clergyperson will always end up with a Christ centred funeral and should generally be able to work around the needs of the family.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Gottschalk
Shipmate
# 13175
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Posted
The liturgical texts are quite clear about what the funeral liturgy is about:
Roman Missal:
1. Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine.
Praying God to grant rest to the deceased.
2. The Collect, Secret, Post-Communion
Praying God to absolve the deceased of their sins - in special connection with the Eucharistic sacrifice.
3. Praying God to deliver the soul from eternal pain. Domine Jesu Christe...
The Epistle from St Paul to the Thessalonians - exhortation to hope in the future resurrection - participation in the Resurrection of Christ.
While the first few words of the Dies Irae can sound quite grim we find a couple of stanzas later - Rex tremende majestatis (...Mozart's setting... the depth and sincerity of hope expressed in the music) with the evangelical accents of the grace of Christ, fons pietatis. (Was it Father Hunwicke who recently published a most interesting article on pietas?)
And in the Gospel, we read, not directly, of the resurrection of Lazarus, but the moving dialogue between Our Lord and Martha. The relatives and friends of the deceased are here invited to Martha's faith in Christ resurrectio et vita.
Hope, faith, + constant appeal to God's love and mercy. It is indeed through the cultivation of the three theological virtues that we are invited to consider a death, and to pray for forgiveness, delivrance and rest. And so much light mentioned throughout - lux perpetua.
The somber tone of the plea for deliverance in the Libera me is balanced by the luminous In Paradisum.
The tradition of the Roman Missal does go to the essential - the event of death, and the subsequent processes of grief supported through the practice of the three theological virtues.
I dont know about the Reformed roman ritual.
However, the same spirit may be found in the Scottish BCP 1912, with the choice of sentences, psalms and lesson - again faith and hope in the resurrection in the love of Christ. It also includes the option of "A Prayer for those in Sorrow": Heavenly Father whose blessed Son Jesus Christ did weep at the grave of Lazarus his friend, etc. Would anyone know the origin of this beautiful prayer?
What the people need is a good catechesis about the funeral liturgy at appropriate times (say such a sermon around the 1/2 November), but above all, pastoral care, which it is not the place of the liturgy to provide. This can be an easy way out lazy priests or ministers, probably thinking that the nice words said during the service or the space provided for family/friends to express their grief, dispense them from caring pastorally for "those in sorrow".
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Gottschalk
Ad bellum exit Ajax
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LutheranChik
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# 9826
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Posted
Eulogies are not a Lutheran thing.
I did preside, as a lay minister, at a funeral of a nominally Lutheran individual whose family wanted eulogies because that's what they were used to at their friends' funerals.[Sigh] But they were open to my guidance. I suggested only two or three speakers, and gave them a fairly tight time guideline. They were okay with this, and I was able to keep the eulogies from being the centerpiece of the service. I was terrified -- this was my first experience solo-ing at a service of any kind -- but it went better than I thought it would considering the fact that the death was unexpected and the family was pretty confused.
[ 24. February 2014, 00:58: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
This is an issue that comes up in Eccles from time to time, and as usual many posts seem to draw it as an either/or. I would like to argue that it can be both/and, and that words of remembrance at a funeral can, with some guidelines, be appropriate and not excessive.
I take this a bit personally. My husband died one year ago today. His funeral included a splendid sermon by our rector, in which the gospel was preached and T's life of faith was referenced. After that, there were three, short remembrances. I asked his youngest brother (who is very involved in his church and is comfortable with the God-talk), a lifelong friend, and a colleague from Scouts. I told them they each had three minutes, and they pretty much held to it, in spite of two of them being attorneys. And in that time T was not eulogized -- in fact, each of them mentioned what a pain in the @** he could be -- but they also spoke of why they loved him. Then three hundred people from many different corners of Christendom -- Episcopalian, Presbyterian, non-denominational evangelicals, and Roman Catholics, came to the Table to receive the Risen Christ. It was the closest I had ever come, and probably ever will in this life, to a foretaste of the heavenly banquet. There wasn't one minute of the proceedings that did not glorify God or remind us of how much we depend on His love and mercy.
And so I get a bit testy when it is suggested that allowing personal remarks at a funeral is not appropriate. Guidelines must be given and adhered to, yes. And I have no doubt that many who post here have seen gloppy and inappropriate comments. I'm sorry that happened. But I am not sorry for a minute to defend a well-managed, 10-minute set of remarks within a ninety-minute BCP79 service. (Yes, each speaker got a little choked up. So did my Rector. That happens when someone drops dead unexpectedly.)
There is a Via Media between excessive sentimentality on the one hand and dry proforma liturgy on the other.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I have never attended, nor taken, a funeral service which didn't contain some sort of eulogy. I would find the service cold and clinical without one, and it provides a "skeleton" on which the congregation can hang their own thoughts.
Yes, some of them are bad - although helping the family to prepare, and telling them that I'll be ready to read out the words if they can't, is a big help. (It also gets them to write it down, rather than letting them ramble incoherently).
But there are two things I will try to prevent. One is having a succession of tributes by people connected with the deceased - unless they can get their heads together beforehand and work out what they are going to say. Otherwise they duplicate and/or run out of things to say.
The other is home-written poetry - the muse usually laves the author somewhere around line 2, and they are invariably read atrociously. (One exception: a splendid poem by the deceased herself, read by a trained actor, which moved us all greatly).
By the way, although I most certainly want to present the Christian hope at funerals, I do not approve of the practice of preaching "at" what I consider to be a vulnerable and captive audience. But some of my colleagues do.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Barnabas Aus
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# 15869
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Posted
I strongly agree with Mamacita. I have had the responsibility of delivering the eulogies for our four parents and my maiden aunt. In this I may be fortunate in being an experienced public speaker. However, there is a provision in our liturgy at an early point in the service for such remarks, and when well-managed this only adds to the thanksgiving being offered.
The most recent experience of this was my mother-in-law's funeral just a few weeks ago, when many who were present were unaware of her life prior to migration, and of the reasons for her late life confirmation along with my late father-in-law. On this occasion I was supported by my daughter who in a most composed manner delivered brief remarks which made me proud of her. Our remarks were reflected in the sermon by one of our dear friends and former rectors, which tied her life experience to the Gospel message.
We also included a very brief biographical sketch in the service booklet, which added meaning to the service.
So it seems to me that rather than episcopal fiats, a well-managed preparation on the part of the parish priest will produce the most satisfactory result for family and for the mourners.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
And in that time T was not eulogized -- in fact, each of them mentioned what a pain in the @** he could be -- but they also spoke of why they loved him.
That was a lovely post, Mamacita, and I'm so glad the requiem meant so much to you.
But I'm glad you mentioned that it was not eulogy all the way.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Yes, I do hate it when we make the dear departed into plaster saints. A bit of respect is one thing ... but realism helps. My wife was furious at the minister's eulogy at her mother's funeral; he painted her in glowing colours when, in fact, she was a difficult woman with lots of problems. Graciously acknowledging the truth would have been far more helpful to the congregation.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
One of the most unpleasant funerals I've been to was nothing to do with drawn out eulogies (which I dislike), but rather when the minister conducting the service launched into a fire and brimstone sermon in which he informed the mourners that they were probably all going to hell as he was sure the deceased was. The family in the front row all became very distressed but he seemed oblivious to this. I buttonholed him after the funeral while he was filling his face with cream cake and informed him that he would be the one going to hell if I had any say.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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Eirenist
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# 13343
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Posted
My worst funeral experience ever was when I took the funeral of the oldest member of a posh golf club at the local crematorium, where the time allowance is 20 minutes within a half-hour slot. The Chairman of the club had asked to say 'a few words'. He went on for at least 15 minutes. I was not propular with the crem staff.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
One of the problems for the CofE is that we still tend to be the 'default' funeral provider for the non-religious or nominally religious. So CofE clergy often have to conduct the funerals of people they never knew, and whose families they've known only for a couple of days. And sometimes, getting anything meaningful out of the family at the pre-funeral visit is nigh-on impossible. Any minister who's had to conduct three funerals in a day, each of them for "a lovely man, would never hurt anybody, loved his family" will know whereof I speak.
In those circumstances, a well-crafted tribute at the beginning of the service from someone who actually knew the deceased can be a blessing.
When I was in parish ministry, I took to offering help with the eulogy. I always told the eulogist it should be written down, word for word, and shouldn't be any longer than one side of A4 paper. Writing it down would help them not lose their train of thought when they were delivering it, and also, as I told them, "if it's written down and you feel you can't go on, I can do it for you." In such terms as these was the iron hand of the liturgical control freak gloved with the comforting velvet of pastoral concern. And it worked every time.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes, I do hate it when we make the dear departed into plaster saints. A bit of respect is one thing ... but realism helps. My wife was furious at the minister's eulogy at her mother's funeral; he painted her in glowing colours when, in fact, she was a difficult woman with lots of problems. Graciously acknowledging the truth would have been far more helpful to the congregation.
I often say to families that it's important that what we say is 'real' - we're not there to make them into a saint.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I always told the eulogist it should be written down, word for word, and shouldn't be any longer than one side of A4 paper. Writing it down would help them not lose their train of thought when they were delivering it, and also, as I told them, "if it's written down and you feel you can't go on, I can do it for you." In such terms as these was the iron hand of the liturgical control freak gloved with the comforting velvet of pastoral concern. And it worked every time.
Very well done! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas Aus:
So it seems to me that rather than episcopal fiats, a well-managed preparation on the part of the parish priest will produce the most satisfactory result for family and for the mourners.
This.
Thorough review of the service/liturgy in advance is required. This includes, by the way, the priest or minister disclosing the homily or sermon. Good thorough preparation = yes yes yes. One priest gave us a handout which was rather nice.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
A chat with a clerical friend suggested that the two horror-instances to which I referred in an earlier post were really not too bad. He gave me a few other ones, including a disquisition on how the deceased had overcome his distaste for using a colostomy bag, and a discussion on how the Regional Municipality had caused another of the departed much trauma for having denied him the use of a hiking trail for snowmobiling. However, it was the use of sports teams enthusiasm as the focus of several eulogies which apparently tipped the Archbishop's iceberg (my contact was left speechless by my information that the current incumbent at Saint Vartan's wore a Team Canada as his vestment on Sunday and proudly facebooked it).
I passed on some of the disciplined/directed approaches to eulogizing suggested by other shipmates and he sighed, wondering if every priest could manage that-- a franco-ontarian family in united emotional expression was difficult to resist, and sometimes clerics dealt with the anger and grief of emotions by simply yielding. I fear I told him that Anglican clergy were skilled at not paying attention to anyone.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
When I was a manager of volunteers at a nonprofit I went to the funeral of one of our beloved volunteers, at her RC church. The priest gave one of the best funeral homilies I've ever heard; it was heartfelt, portrayed the deceased in a gentle, affectionate and occasionally humorous way -- all appropriate in the circumstances -- without becoming glurgy or falling into the "plaster saint" trap; but it never went off message of Jesus as the One Who Goes Before, who give us hope of the Resurrection. In baseball terms (also appropriate in context -- the lady was a great Detroit Tigers fan), the priest hit it out of the park.
PS I've also been in a funeral service for a religiously nonobservant individual where the Baptipentegelical pastor used the opportunity to warn us all, in so many words, that if we didn't shape up we'd wind up where the deceased was probably spending eternity. That is just not something you would hear in our tradition. I thought it was highly inappropriate; on the other hand, you have to wonder about nonobservant families who randomly pick their funeral presiders out of a phone book, then become annoyed when "they get what they get."
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
A gay Buddhist went to his mother (an ardent 8 o'clock communicant) only to hear the rector tell him that if he didn't repent and convert, he'd never see his mother again as he was destined for hell.
Clergy can be absolute bastards.
That is horrendous, revolting behaviour. There is absolutely no excuse.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I always told the eulogist it should be written down, word for word, and shouldn't be any longer than one side of A4 paper. Writing it down would help them not lose their train of thought when they were delivering it, and also, as I told them, "if it's written down and you feel you can't go on, I can do it for you." In such terms as these was the iron hand of the liturgical control freak gloved with the comforting velvet of pastoral concern. And it worked every time.
Very well done!
Yep that's my practice too
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Margaret
Shipmate
# 283
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Posted
I wish there had been someone to exercise that sort of tactful control at the strangest funeral I've ever been to in a church. It was going to be a difficult one anyway, as it was of an apparently healthy young woman who'd suddenly collapsed and died of heart failure, but it turned into a festival of bathos. We started with a tribute from her best friend at school about what fun she'd been, then we had one from a group of her university friends saying much the same, then one from her boyfriend, and finally one from her sister. The low point was the lumpen boyfriend, who described her as the love of his life and then added, "We even talked of marriage - well, she did..." Things hardly improved when the vicar took over the mike, read a verse or two of the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus tells the disciples not to be anxious, and then launched into a ramble about how we mustn't worry, she'd always enjoyed life and she wouldn't want us to worry. Finally, finally, we got to the God bit, with the Lord's Prayer and a couple of prayers from the Common Worship funeral service; and that was it.
If the Archbishop has ever had to sit through something like that, I can see where he's coming from.
Posts: 2456 | From: West Midlands UK | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
It doesn't sound that bad! The mourners said what they felt, and the vicar read the Scriptures and managed to refer to God's love - but not too strenuously, because the people concerned probably weren't very religious and going on and on about that wouldn't have been authentic for them.
I think in the future there are likely to be more and more British humanist funerals, but it might be interesting to see 'spiritual' funerals as well, i.e. funerals for people who don't necessarily want to exclude God, but don't want to have heavily Christian assumptions made throughout the ceremony.
[ 25. February 2014, 13:59: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Margaret
Shipmate
# 283
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Posted
No, he didn't mention God's love, or even God at all until the brief prayers at the end; and although the father isn't religious the mother is a regular communicant.
Posts: 2456 | From: West Midlands UK | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Surely then the mother would have spoken to the vicar and ensured that the service had a strong Christian element? If a churchgoing mother can't influence her unmarried daughter's funeral, who can? The boyfriend doesn't sound like the type who would have taken control of the whole thing.
This particular funeral is none of my business, of course, but it shows how easy it is for funerals to be unsatisfactory. I'm fortunate in having lots of examples of good funerals in my cultural context, so even if I drop dead tomorrow I'll have an appropriate send-off, I think. In the wider culture, though, I think people need to give the subject much more thought.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I always told the eulogist it should be written down, word for word, and shouldn't be any longer than one side of A4 paper. Writing it down would help them not lose their train of thought when they were delivering it, and also, as I told them, "if it's written down and you feel you can't go on, I can do it for you." In such terms as these was the iron hand of the liturgical control freak gloved with the comforting velvet of pastoral concern. And it worked every time.
Very well done!
Yep that's my practice too
Tritto. There is a place for Eulogies if they are comparatively short. I always think that it is a bit odd if I stand up and tell a church full of people who knew and loved Mrs Smith all about her when the first I had heard of Mrs Smith was the telephone call from the FD. On the other hand someone needs to stand up and talk about the Resurrection so there is no harm in a division of labour.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Personally, I want to see an Archbishop ban the ubiquitous hymn, played at all funerals here, without fail: Amazing Grace. The only version I can tolerate is this. Both because it's hurtin', because it's by the Amazing Rhythm Aces, and because I don't think they quite know its satire. That'd be all three of the both.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
What a foul idea. Of course people are going to want to fall back on familiar words and singable tunes at funerals. Let the, sing their hearts out if they can and they need to.
And Amazing Grace has the advantage of being appropriate to the situation, and orthodox, and well-written. (Especially of you sing all the original five verses and not the cut-down one familiar from the recordings)
So have Amazing Grace. And Abide With Me. And The Lord's My Shepherd. And Guide me O thou great Redeemer. And And can it be? I want all of them at my funeral (may The Lord delay it for ever so many years)
Let the people sing.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Absolutely Ken. Let 'em sing. The others in your list are not on the always list. In fact Amazing Grace is the only one on the list. It really does feature at all funerals here.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
My most memorable funeral was one that would have been much less memorable without the eulogy. I had known the dead lady for about 12 years, but never known that she had been part of a NZ Methodist mission to Hiroshima after the war, helping nurse those who were affected by radiation sickness. Without that witness, her funeral would have been that of just another of our old ladies, much loved, but essentially unknown to us of a younger generation.
My mother is very kindly writing the story of her life for me. I have scanned every photo of her there is, and we are making it into a little book. I think it will make a great thing to give people at her funeral - its funny, well observed, and full of history. She's not dying yet, thank goodness, but it occurred to me the other day that rather than talk about her at her funeral, she could do the talking herself. I can't imagine that the parish won't eulogise her anyway - she's been a major player in pastoral and liturgical matters over the last 50 years.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Oh, and whatever people want to sing, let them. Although if the deceased leaves clear instructions as to where to find the music for rare hymns, that would be nice. I've played for two funerals where there was a major panic over unknown hymns, one because they'd got the title wrong, the other because they'd written down the first line of the second verse which is hardly ever sung. I think I brought the first one to this very board for help!
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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