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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: BCP Gloria in Lent
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Last Sunday I took the 8 am BCP Communion for a local vicar who was on holiday. When I got to the end of the service I was taken by surprise by the Gloria, but kept it in as the BCP doesn't have many seasonal variations, and Cranmer included it where it is to model the disciples singing a hymn at the end of the Last Supper. However, the congregation were slow to join in, which left me wondering if the vicar normally omitted it in Lent, as you would in CW.
Now I'm no liturgical expert, but many posters here are. Could any of you tell me what the procedure is? Was I right or not?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Last Sunday I took the 8 am BCP Communion for a local vicar who was on holiday. When I got to the end of the service I was taken by surprise by the Gloria, but kept it in as the BCP doesn't have many seasonal variations, and Cranmer included it where it is to model the disciples singing a hymn at the end of the Last Supper. However, the congregation were slow to join in, which left me wondering if the vicar normally omitted it in Lent, as you would in CW.
Now I'm no liturgical expert, but many posters here are. Could any of you tell me what the procedure is? Was I right or not?
Nothing is defined in the rubrics of the BCP Communion service about the Gloria (in Excelsis Deo) and I suppose the "purists" would include the Gloria on all occasions, all the year round, using BCP. That said, I am at a lost to know of a church where the Gloria is said in Lent nor in Advent, for that matter.
Other sources state that the Gloria is added outside Advent and Lent and on weekday feasts (or similar wording). Exceptions are made on feastdays in penitential seasons when the Gloria is used regardless.
Whether you are right or not, from the foregoing, on the one hand yes and on the other hand no.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Last Sunday I took the 8 am BCP Communion for a local vicar who was on holiday. When I got to the end of the service I was taken by surprise by the Gloria, but kept it in as the BCP doesn't have many seasonal variations, and Cranmer included it where it is to model the disciples singing a hymn at the end of the Last Supper. However, the congregation were slow to join in, which left me wondering if the vicar normally omitted it in Lent, as you would in CW.
Now I'm no liturgical expert, but many posters here are. Could any of you tell me what the procedure is? Was I right or not?
Nothing is defined in the rubrics of the BCP Communion service about the Gloria (in Excelsis Deo) and I suppose the "purists" would include the Gloria on all occasions, all the year round, using BCP. That said, I am at a loss to know of a church where the Gloria is said in Lent nor in Advent, for that matter.
Other sources state that the Gloria is added on Sundays, outside Advent and Lent and on weekday feasts (or similar wording). Exceptions are made on feastdays in penitential seasons when the Gloria is used regardless of the season.
Whether you are right or not, from the foregoing, on the one hand yes and on the other hand no.
I had one or two typos to correct above, which I have now done. I apologise for that.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The BCP Communion service as commonly celbrated is Order Two in Common Worship. Note 29 on page 335 of the Common Worship main volume says that "If the Gloria is not to be used on every occasion, it is appropriately omitted on Sundays in Advent and Lent..."
If you are following the 1662 BCP itself, you would include the collect for the Queen and the exhortations.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
If you are following the 1662 BCP itself, you would include the collect for the Queen and the exhortations.
Well, that goes without saying.....
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
In the Anglican Church of Canada the Gloria is omitted and replaced by the Trisagion "Holy God , Holy & almighty, Holy immortal one,have mercy upon us" repeated 3 times. during the Lenten season
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Well, that's a bit of an overstatement: replacing the Kyrie and Gloria with the Trisagion in Lent is one option given by the rubrics of one of the two service books of the Anglican Church of Canada. I can't say it's an option I've seen too many celebrants avail themselves of.
[ 29. March 2014, 03:53: Message edited by: LQ ]
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I suppose the "purists" would include the Gloria on all occasions, all the year round, using BCP.
I once went to an evangelical church which did BCP HC on Good Friday morning and included the gloria at the end.
Odd, because tat the preceding sung MP they substituted the benedicite for the Te Deum.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
Well, that's a bit of an overstatement: replacing the Kyrie and Gloria with the Trisagion in Lent is one option given by the rubrics of one of the two service books of the Anglican Church of Canada. I can't say it's an option I've seen too many celebrants avail themselves of.
Is the Gloria normally used in Lent in Canada, then, or do you mean it is typically the Kyrie followed by the Collect?
As an aside, I've really got to give credit to TEC and the Anglicans in Canada, who have a nicely streamlined entrance rite. In Lutheranism, the entrance rite can be quite prolonged. We do retain the confession at the start, but we don't have quick options, as the Catholics do.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
It is typically just the Kyrie, but I have been to a few places where the Trisagion was used. And then too there are more modern places that treat the Kyrie and Gloria as alternatives, using the former in purple seasons and the latter at other times.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
And then too there are more modern places that treat the Kyrie and Gloria as alternatives, using the former in purple seasons and the latter at other times.
This is virtually obligatory in most CoE places.
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sinbosun
Apprentice
# 16970
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
In the Anglican Church of Canada the Gloria is omitted and replaced by the Trisagion "Holy God , Holy & almighty, Holy immortal one,have mercy upon us" repeated 3 times. during the Lenten season
Well not really. You have the option to use Kyrie or Trisagion. I use the Kyrie in Lent and Trisagion during Holy Week.
Posts: 2 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Mar 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
And then too there are more modern places that treat the Kyrie and Gloria as alternatives, using the former in purple seasons and the latter at other times.
This is virtually obligatory in most CoE places.
It used to go further - the agnus Dei, like the kyrie, is (sort of) repeated in the gloria so some parishes used to have either)kyries and agnus Dei
or) Gloria
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The Kyrie and Gloria in Excelsis were alternatives in Series 3. In the ASB and Common Worship, they may both be used, although neither is mandatory.
IMHO, they are both part of the Western mass and I'd like them both included, even if the Kyrie is said as part of the penitential rite.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
It's been 20 years since I regularly attended BCP 8 o'clock Communion, but I can't recall missing out the Gloria in Lent.
(I do remember being a tad annoyed at one priest who always forgot to use the Proper Preface for the Sunday after Ascension. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) )
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Pulsator Organorum Ineptus
Shipmate
# 2515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
If you are following the 1662 BCP itself, you would include the collect for the Queen and the exhortations.
Well, that goes without saying.....
And the sermon will be read from one of the Books of Homilies. Should only take about an hour.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
It's been 20 years since I regularly attended BCP 8 o'clock Communion, but I can't recall missing out the Gloria in Lent.
(I do remember being a tad annoyed at one priest who always forgot to use the Proper Preface for the Sunday after Ascension. )
At a BCP 8 o'clock communion, you probably wouldn't have had the Gloria omitted.
As for the proper preface you mention, thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one. I had taken to paper clipping the pages in the altar book to prevent mishaps. It's rather ironic when on the one hand you have a pastor who complains about everything being the same all the time, and on the other hand that pastor misses every single opportunity to change things up.
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I was taught to omit the Gloria during Lent and Advent when using the BCP. The Prayer Book acknowledges the season of Lent to the extent that it expects the Collect for Ash Wednesday and the Litany to be said throughout the season so I don't think that it is a rebuke to the memory of Blessed Thomas Cranmer to drop the Gloria.
Of course, the acknowledged expert among shipmates is a chap called Gordon Cheng. Whatever happened to him? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
We don't omit the Gloria in Lent. We have two collects and they get the full 10 commandments on the first Sunday of Lent rather than the summary of the law. I have suggested that I read on of the homilies. They think I'm joking....
I'm coming around to BCP. I found the language hard going at first when I first started presiding but now I like the fact it doesn't change and eastward facing means that me and God get to talk to each other first thing on a Sunday whilst the congregation all hide on the back pew.
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Eastward facing? In a BCP service? Anathema!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Par for the course in a lot of rural churches. Why would we bother with a nave altar?
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
The BCP wants you to stand sideways-on.
As our vicar used to before we moved to Series 3.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
North position is technically correct, of course, but it's tricky to accomplish unless the altar has been rotated through 90 degrees (as it would have been after the Reformation).
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sinbosun:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
In the Anglican Church of Canada the Gloria is omitted and replaced by the Trisagion "Holy God , Holy & almighty, Holy immortal one,have mercy upon us" repeated 3 times. during the Lenten season
Well not really. You have the option to use Kyrie or Trisagion. I use the Kyrie in Lent and Trisagion during Holy Week.
Welcome aboard, by the way ...
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Eastward facing? In a BCP service? Anathema!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Well as someone who is new to all of this I do find it odd that my 8am congregation like the long walk up to the high altar whereas when the prayer book services were first introduced the minister would have presided at a table in the nave.
It would be interesting to find out where the layers of local custom and practice came from and how recent our current practice is.
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
I had an interesting one this week, CinW 1984 BCP midweek communion, with Gloria and Creed. Gloria felt very odd. I can see an argument for not omitting it on Sundays in Lent as it isn't suggested, but both creed and gloria have ( On Sundays and festivals ) after them, so why use them on any weekday let alone in Lent?
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
On a weekday we never have gloria nor creed. What's this all about?
That was not specified in the 1662 BCP. It was added in the 1928 proposed version. If you do a "by the book" BCP Holy Communion, it should always include Creed and Gloria.
(Of course, the 1984 CiW BCP is an entirely different animal.)
[ 05. April 2014, 20:53: Message edited by: Basilica ]
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
North position is technically correct, of course, but it's tricky to accomplish unless the altar has been rotated through 90 degrees (as it would have been after the Reformation).
I think that we must have missed the Reformation where the position of our altar is concerned, which is quite ironic because a large proportion of the PCC appeared, for example, to regard sanctuary bells as a sinister means for Papists to communicate with the Spanish Armada. In any event if I'd tried to celebrate from the Ping-Pong position I would have ended up in the floral display and, being a martyr to hay fever, this would not have been good.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
On a weekday we never have gloria nor creed. What's this all about?
Hoping that by "weekday" you mean "feria"--feasts ought to have Gloria, and feasts of a certain rank the Creed as well.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Patrick
Shipmate
# 305
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Posted
Archbishop Cranmer sometimes shows in his 1549 lectionary a serious attention to the meaning of the feasts in the liturgical year. Epiphany, which is more ancient than Christmas and at least as high a feast as the Nativity in both East and West, in the lessons the Archbishop appoints, displays the full complexity its varied themes . Not only does he recollect the the visit of the Magi in the Gospel of the day, but Archbishop Cranmer also provides Luke's account of the Lord's Baptism and John's narration of the wedding at Cana. The antiphon for the Magnificat on the Epiphany emphasizes these three aspects of the feast. Archbishop Cranmer also provides special Office readings involving the Epiphany themes for January 7.
Posts: 109 | From: Fordham University, Bronx, N.Y. U.S.A. | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
On a weekday we never have gloria nor creed. What's this all about?
Hoping that by "weekday" you mean "feria"--feasts ought to have Gloria, and feasts of a certain rank the Creed as well.
Yes, feria, of course. Nobody seems to know that 'feria' means any more.
At age 62 I begin to feel quite elderly.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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