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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Liturgy at the National (Anglican) Shrine of Walsingham
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
I'm sure there's a shipmate who can answer this for me. Today, on this beautiful spring day we had in SE England, as I was off work, I decided to drive a hundred miles north, and make my first ever visit to Walsingham in Norfolk. The purpose of my visit was to go the the RC shrine at Houghton St Giles, about a mile outside Little Walsingham, and make my Lent confession. Following Confession, Mass and Adoration, I drifted into the village proper to visit the National Shrine. Two things struck me as I entered the site. The first was its great beauty and holiness. The second is that it isn't very Anglican if we take into account Queen Elizabeth's coronation oath to uphold the Protestant religion!
As catholicism goes, delibrately using small "c", Walsingham is the full monty. A Holy Well with daily sprinkling service. Lady Chapels, Novena Lights, Living Rosary Guilds, Lamps of the Holy House. A Church of the Guild of All Souls. Any pilgrims coming from afar would have no way of knowing that this place is any different from Lourds, Knock or Czestochowa, the last two of which I've visited. Usually, in such a place, I would do the geekish thing of looking at their liturgical books to see what they do in that respect, but I could't find any, as as some ladies were cleaning the Shrine Church, I couldn't go nosing around too much. So does anyone know if, in trying to be more Catholic than the Pope, they use RC liturgy there, or are they stictly C of E.
I also visited both Orthodox churches in the village, which are small, but very lovingly kept. As a great believer in ecumenism, it pleases me that there are such good relations between the different Christian groups in the village. Schism is an affront to Christ, and a thousand years of holiness in Walsingham hits you from all sides amid the great beauty of the shrines.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I was at Walsingham for a few days recently. They keep Roman Missals and Common Worship for priests to use, as far as I can tell, ad lib.
But, in an odd way, I'd say (having visited both shrines) that the Anglican shrine really is very Anglican. It's a little more self-conscious of the aesthetics of its worship than the RC place (always a giveaway), a little old-fashioned, a little quirky, and, at its best, can have about it just a hint of self-mockery.
When I went, it was a long time since my previous visit, and I loved it as if for the first time.
Were there many people there, PaulTH*? I'd have thought they'd be pretty quiet in Holy Week - parishes tend to stay at home.
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
But, in an odd way, I'd say (having visited both shrines) that the Anglican shrine really is very Anglican. It's a little more self-conscious of the aesthetics of its worship than the RC place (always a giveaway), a little old-fashioned, a little quirky, and, at its best, can have about it just a hint of self-mockery.
Though I didn't attend any worship there, the aesthetics of the place itself, knock those of the RC shrine into a cocked hat! As they say, Catholics go to Mass, Anglicans go to church. In London I always go to Mass in churches with a high level of aesthetics, but they can be sadly lacking in RC worship.
quote:
Were there many people there, PaulTH*? I'd have thought they'd be pretty quiet in Holy Week - parishes tend to stay at home.
You are right. Both shrines were quiet. But as I left the village, I was seized by an overwhelming desire to come back soon. God willing!
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Perhaps Adeodatus or someone else can answer this one for me. I'm very conscious of the need to steer clear of DH territory, so all I'm asking for is facts or observations, not opinions. On this lovely spring afternoon, quite a few, including clergy, were sitting out in the afternoon sun. But I didn't see any women in priests garb. So are women priest integrated into the life of the National Shrine. Again I emphasise I'm just interested in how the place works, not in opening up a DH discussion.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Perhaps Adeodatus or someone else can answer this one for me. I'm very conscious of the need to steer clear of DH territory, so all I'm asking for is facts or observations, not opinions. On this lovely spring afternoon, quite a few, including clergy, were sitting out in the afternoon sun. But I didn't see any women in priests garb. So are women priest integrated into the life of the National Shrine. Again I emphasise I'm just interested in how the place works, not in opening up a DH discussion.
Women priests aren't allowed to preside at the Eucharist at the Shrine, or to become Priests Associate (I think). However, when I was there there were several women priests staying or passing through. None of those I spoke with considered the restriction a deal-breaker when it came to going on pilgrimage. One said she was glad the CofE had managed to keep a range of traditions within it. I raised the subject in conversation because I myself had qualms about being there. Having been, and having talked about the issue, I'm a lot closer to being qualmless.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
None of those I spoke with considered the restriction a deal-breaker when it came to going on pilgrimage. One said she was glad the CofE had managed to keep a range of traditions within it.
Pilgrimage is perhaps a different aspect of devotion. Many pilgrims could go to, for example Lourdes, who aren't Catholics, but they would be aware of the need to respect the traditions of the shrine. But, and I won't comment any further, I can't see those rules lasting at an Anglican shrine.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Only a couple of hundred students turning up for the weekend. Plenty of drinking, singing and late night discussions if the reports I have hear are anything to go by. However that was over two decades ago.
Oh I have been to Lourdes! Indeed I spent my 22nd Birthday there.
Jengie
[ 17. April 2014, 10:11: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Women priests ARE allowed to preside if they bring their parishioners but not in the main building.
is that actually on the site or off site?
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I seem to have heard that women priests can celebrate the Eucharist in the Barn Chapel, which is on site, and is often used by small groups - but I may be wrong!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Some, like Colin Stephenson, wanted it to be very much in the C of E fold but the OOW has made that difficult.
Women priests have been a reality in the C of E for 20 years, with bishops to follow in the not too distant future. It would amaze me if the Bishop of Norwich would allow an enclave in his diocese which doesn't accept that trend. But back to liturgy before this gets banished! Has anyone been to Mass there?
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Sorry to double post, but I meant to include this. Does the shrine make use of any extended episcopal oversight in view of its very catholic tradition?
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Boadicea Trott
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# 9621
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Posted
IIRC, the Shrine at Walsingham was endowed on private land with private funds, continues to be self-funding and is an entity over which the Diocesan Bishop does not actually have formal jurisdiction.
The Shrine is administered by a college of Guardians, both lay and clerical, who act as Trustees.
I don't think the Bishop of Norwich is able to dictate what gender priests may celebrate Mass there or the content of the services..
I hope someone will correct me if I am mistaken.
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X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Sorry to double post, but I meant to include this. Does the shrine make use of any extended episcopal oversight in view of its very catholic tradition?
VERY close links with FiF, SSC, and SSWSH at the top levels (where many are in any case the same people).
The shrine, as Boudicea Trott notes above, is roughly comparable to Pusey House, say, rather than a"normal"CoE establishment. Ie, when it comes down to it, it's a private foundation that happens to employ CofE priests, much like say a school chaplaincy. Therefore it can largely do what it wants, regardless of what the CofE gets up to/wants, for as long as that's what the trustees want.
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And is it true? For if it is....
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Some, like Colin Stephenson, wanted it to be very much in the C of E fold but the OOW has made that difficult.
Has anyone been to Mass there?
It was MW'd a while ago
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I think one of the key things about liturgy at the Shrine is that there isn't a "house style" that's imposed on pilgrim groups (within reason, I suppose). It's take for granted that groups who are coming with their own clergy will do things in the way they're used to.
What the Shrine itself offers, normally, is two or three low Masses each day, Evening Prayer (Roman office, I think) and "Shrine Prayers", which is the Rosary with intercessions. The main Sunday morning Mass is at the parish church, not at the Shrine.
If there are sufficient pilgrims in residence there will also be a sung Pilgrim Mass at some point during their stay, a Procession of Our Lady, and Healing Ministry, which consists of any or all of laying-on of hands, anointing, and confession. This may be done in the context of Exposition and Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament.
If there aren't pilgrims in residence (which is rare from Easter to the end of October) things are quite quiet and simple.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Sorry to double post, but I meant to include this. Does the shrine make use of any extended episcopal oversight in view of its very catholic tradition?
VERY close links with FiF, SSC, and SSWSH at the top levels (where many are in any case the same people).
And the current administrator is the Rt Revd Lindsay Urwin, OGS, one of the bishops of SSWSH.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Thank you for some very informative replies. As a former member of FiF, I'm used to churches which don't toe the line with the diocese. I'm also familiar with Royal Peculiars such as Westminster Abbey, where the Dean is answerable only to HM The Queen, not to the diocesan authorities. But I wasn't aware of how much autonomy the National Shrine has. Its links to the SSC and SSWASH come as no surprise.
To me, Walsingham represents all that's best in Christianity. A place of time hallowed pilgimage and devotion. A place of ecumenical tolerance and cooperation, and a place where worship is done properly(IMO). After my first visit this week, I'm determined that it will henceforth, be an important part of my life for the time I have left here on earth!
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
The parish of Walsingham has also passed resolutions that mean female priests may not give absolution or celebrate the Eucharist in the village outside the Shrine, of course.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Thank you for some very informative replies. As a former member of FiF, I'm used to churches which don't toe the line with the diocese. I'm also familiar with Royal Peculiars such as Westminster Abbey, where the Dean is answerable only to HM The Queen, not to the diocesan authorities. But I wasn't aware of how much autonomy the National Shrine has. Its links to the SSC and SSWASH come as no surprise.
To me, Walsingham represents all that's best in Christianity. A place of time hallowed pilgimage and devotion. A place of ecumenical tolerance and cooperation, and a place where worship is done properly(IMO). After my first visit this week, I'm determined that it will henceforth, be an important part of my life for the time I have left here on earth!
Unless, of course, you're a woman.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
And bad news for others too who find the whole mary thing ott
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Jade, I would be very surprised if women didn't make up the majority of repeat pilgrims to Walsingham and its shrines.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Jade, I would be very surprised if women didn't make up the majority of repeat pilgrims to Walsingham and its shrines.
Thurible
There was an implied ''and ordained' in Jade's comment. I know ordained women who go to Walsingham who would love to be able to exercise their priesthood there.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Unless, of course, you're a woman.
I'm afraid I don't get this one! if a woman, ordained or not, chose to visit Lourdes, Fatima, Knock or Czestochowa, she wouldn't find women officiating at the Mass. Walsingham has its rules which appear, from what's been written here, to be outside the control of the C of E General Synod, or diocesan structure. I've no idea how you'd go about changing it!
quote:
Originally posted by Exclamation Mark:
And bad news for others too who find the whole mary thing ott
I don't get this one either. A strongly Protestant Anglican wouldn't find it to their taste, and would therefore be unlikely to go. Shrines and Protestantism don't go together. In medieval England, veneration of the saints was abundant. Thomas Cromwell's thugs desecrated and destroyed Walsingham along with the rest of the old religion, and the authorities eradicated all traces of these things from the land. As has been pointed out on this forum, the Church of England is a Protestant Church, whose Protestant faith the monarch swears to uphold in the coronation oath. I'm only pleased that some Anglicans, from the Oxford Movement onwards, rediscovered the catholic roots of the C of E which led, ultimately to the restoration of this historical site of pilgimage.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
[QUOTE] Walsingham has its rules which appear, from what's been written here, to be outside the control of the C of E General Synod, or diocesan structure. I've no idea how you'd go about changing it!
Yes but the CofE is quite at liberty to proscribe any priest from officiating there, on threat of removal from holy orders or permission to officiate.
The fact that the CofE hasn't said that Walsingham isn't protestant suggests that the hierarchy either doesn't care or is in favour. Trust or not, Anglican priests are officiating there and can, should the church wish, be stopped.
Neither view squares with the Reformation, the Queen's oath or recent votes abut Oow. Walsingham is exclusive to a gospel that is adamantly inclusive.
Yes, I've been there and to me, it seemed like a rodeo sideshow populated by priests who were OTT camp.
[ 19. April 2014, 06:54: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Despite people's stated intentions to avoid Dead Horses we are skating very close to the line. May I remind you that "the role of women in church and Christian households" is a Dead Horse and any aspect of that discussion should be conducted there. So discussions about the Shrine's rules on female priests (and the relation of that to female pilgrims) need to be in Dead Horses, not here.
Furthermore, if you want to debate whether Marian devotion is theologically acceptable, in the Church of England, or more generally, that is a tangent to this thread. It could form the topic of a new thread here in Ecclesiantics or in Purgatory, depending how the OP was framed.
In the meantime, this thread is about liturgy at the Anglican shrine in Walsingham.
seasick, Eccles host
[ 19. April 2014, 10:17: Message edited by: seasick ]
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
So discussions about the Shrine's rules on female priests (and the relation of that to female pilgrims) need to be in Dead Horses, not here.
I apologise for dragging that tangent into this discussion. To all outward appearances, the Shrine is a catholic shrine like Catholic shrines throughout the world, and I just wondered if that included its attitude towards women celebrating Mass. That's been answered, so needs no further comment here.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Yes but the CofE is quite at liberty to proscribe any priest from officiating there, on threat of removal from holy orders or permission to officiate.
Can it? Can the Baptist Union proscribe its ministers that way? You seem to be assuming the CofE functions like the RCC and then criticising it for not doing so.
It's also quite difficult to remove someone from holy orders unless they commit adultery.
quote:
The fact that the CofE hasn't said that Walsingham isn't protestant suggests that the hierarchy either doesn't care or is in favour.
Non sequitur. Nobody is ever entitled to conclude what I or anyone else supports or opposes from what I or they don't say anything about.
quote:
Trust or not, Anglican priests are officiating there and can, should the church wish, be stopped.
Neither view squares with the Reformation, the Queen's oath or recent votes abut Oow. Walsingham is exclusive to a gospel that is adamantly inclusive.
So you'd like the CofE to return to its C19 tradition of violent protest and litigation about things like whether water is added to wine, whether non-conformists can be buried in churchyards and what exact definition a person has to believe about baptismal regeneration to be inducted to a living?
If like Micah and Ben-Gershom in Judges 17, somebody hires their own priest, and pays them, I don't know, and I'm not sure anyone else does, what actual powers anyone has to stop them doing so.
quote:
Yes, I've been there and to me, it seemed like a rodeo sideshow populated by priests who were OTT camp.
I'm CofE and rather agree with you, but if that sort of thing really lights your candle, who am I to say how you should be allowed or forbidden to express your faith? Besides, isn't the logic of your statement is that the gospel is "adamantly inclusive" then shouldn't you accept it includes not just women, of whom you do approve, but also those of whom you do not?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
[QUOTE] Walsingham has its rules which appear, from what's been written here, to be outside the control of the C of E General Synod, or diocesan structure. I've no idea how you'd go about changing it!
Yes but the CofE is quite at liberty to proscribe any priest from officiating there, on threat of removal from holy orders or permission to officiate.
The fact that the CofE hasn't said that Walsingham isn't protestant suggests that the hierarchy either doesn't care or is in favour. Trust or not, Anglican priests are officiating there and can, should the church wish, be stopped.
Neither view squares with the Reformation, the Queen's oath or recent votes abut Oow. Walsingham is exclusive to a gospel that is adamantly inclusive.
Yes, I've been there and to me, it seemed like a rodeo sideshow populated by priests who were OTT camp.
I probably wouldn't identify as a Protestant, and I still have personal issues with Walsingham, although predictably not the Mary stuff ![[Biased]](wink.gif) Taking Mary out of Walsingham would be like turning off the power supply. I also find criticising it for being camp problematic - having a space for campness is vitally important, not making people not be able to express themselves through their faith. Some people have a camp faith. They should be able to express that. Clearly, there are still views stuck in the atmosphere of the Public Worship Regulation Act of 1874, that sees a catholic faith as suspicious and un-English, and at least subconsciously connecting it to DH issues.
Having an inclusive Gospel is important and I do think that Walsingham is not fulfilling this - but inclusive naturally includes campness and other aspects of faith that you would not welcome.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Hmm......I, personally, don't like Walsingham itself all that much - the Dead Horse is one reason, and another is the sheer awfulness of some of the Marian/Carflick tat - and yet, I do plug in to the Mary thing, and to the importance she has in the overall Christian message (no, I have not accepted her as my personal Co-Redemptrix - a potential heresy IMHO).
OTOH, as long as Walsingham continues to point to faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ as the most important thing in the whole multiverse, I'm all for it.
BTW, on the occasions I've been to Walsingham, Mass has been basically Common Worship with the permitted variations, and the Office has been the (IMNSHO) rather clunky RCC version!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
How is the Liturgy at Walsingham camp in a different way or degree than Liturgy at Lourdes, Fatima, Guadalupe, etc.?
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Yes but the CofE is quite at liberty to proscribe any priest from officiating there, on threat of removal from holy orders or permission to officiate.
Can it? Can the Baptist Union proscribe its ministers that way?
Yes - ministers can be removed from the accredited list.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
How is the Liturgy at Walsingham camp in a different way or degree than Liturgy at Lourdes, Fatima, Guadalupe, etc.?
I think A-C camp is different to RC camp. I'm not sure I could articulate why, precisely, but it does feel different.
BF - I love a bit of awful Marian/Carflick tat ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) But then my tastes in general lean towards mid-20thC kitsch. A friend went on holiday to Spain and got a Pope Francis keyring, which I yearn for totally unironically. *makes note to get to the tat shops of RC Europe*
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
C of E style Catholicism tends to be more choreographed, more precious.
Or, as I preferred to put it upthread, it tends to pay more attention to the aesthetics of its worship.
Also, I've always thought there's a sort of restraint to the worship at the Anglican Shrine, as if it's aware it exists within a Church that on the whole Doesn't Really Do This Sort Of Thing. There are few gynaecological / Freudian metaphors flung around in its Mariology. Our Lady herself is portrayed as a generously proportioned Anglo-Saxon matron, rather than as a pretty, willowy teenager who looks like she'd fall over in a stiffish breeze. There's a pervading sense that, when all's said and done, this is rural Norfolk, whose folk are known for their earthy common sense.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Yes but the CofE is quite at liberty to proscribe any priest from officiating there, on threat of removal from holy orders or permission to officiate.
Can it? Can the Baptist Union proscribe its ministers that way?
Yes - ministers can be removed from the accredited list.
What would stop them from officiating at Walsingham. A priest doesn't loose his ordination.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
Personally I felt very uncomfortable at Walsingham. I went a few years ago with my (much more protestant than I) husband. He asked what some of the acronyms meant, which was when I started reading the plaques properly - hundreds of them thanking BVM for everything from vocation to priesthood to healing. no mention of Jesus. I have no problem with saints and intercessions and things, but thanks should be given to God first, and saints second - it is God who does the miracle, saints who intercede.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
[QUOTE]What would stop them from officiating at Walsingham. A priest doesn't loose his ordination.
There's a lot that would stop a Baptist Minister - not a "clerk in holy orders" for a start.
I assume though that you're referring to Anglican priests -- try the 39 articles for a start. And yes, for those whose view of ordination is rather lower, you can lose it.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Yes - ministers can be removed from the accredited list.
What does a person have to do to be disaccredited - apart presumably from committing adultery or dipping ones fingers in the collection?
Would taking part in some non-ordained role at something at Walsingham have that effect? I'm under the impression that historically East Anglia has been Baptist territory. I would have thought there are Baptist ministers in East Anglia who might find themselves being invited ecumenically to go to things happening there.
Would being episcopally ordained mean disaccreditation? I've heard of people being simultaneously both CofE clergy and either URC or Methodist ministers? Can this happen with the BU?
Would baptising a baby cause one to be disaccredited?
Sorry, this is getting a bit tangential of Ecclesiantics, but it would be quite interesting to know.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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k-mann
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# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
[QUOTE]What would stop them from officiating at Walsingham. A priest doesn't loose his ordination.
There's a lot that would stop a Baptist Minister - not a "clerk in holy orders" for a start.
I assume though that you're referring to Anglican priests -- try the 39 articles for a start. And yes, for those whose view of ordination is rather lower, you can lose it.
In the Church of England, ordination sticks. That doesn't mean that anyone can licitly celebrate in the CofE. But their ordination stays.
But if a priest should be 'fired,' what would stop him from celebrating Masses at the shrine in Walsingham? The CofE do not have jurisdiction there.
[ 20. April 2014, 02:00: Message edited by: k-mann ]
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Katolikken
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k-mann
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# 8490
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Posted
And could you point me to the place in the 39 articles were it says that ordination as such (and not merely the legal right to celebrate) can be revoked?
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
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Katolikken
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
[QUOTE]
1. What does a person have to do to be disaccredited - apart presumably from committing adultery or dipping ones fingers in the collection?
2. Would taking part in some non-ordained role at something at Walsingham have that effect? I'm under the impression that historically East Anglia has been Baptist territory. I would have thought there are Baptist ministers in East Anglia who might find themselves being invited ecumenically to go to things happening there.
3. Would being episcopally ordained mean disaccreditation? I've heard of people being simultaneously both CofE clergy and either URC or Methodist ministers? Can this happen with the BU?
4. Would baptising a baby cause one to be disaccredited?
Sorry, this is getting a bit tangential of Ecclesiantics, but it would be quite interesting to know.
1. The obvious is adultery or theft but there's also the possibility of removal of accreditation if you were to wilfully reject or go against one or more of the key principles of the Baptist Union. This might involve governing the church oneself without reference or consultation(the church meeting is supposed to be a key part of our theology).
Then, there's certain dead horse matters like SSM - technically one can be removed under the existing rules for conducting same sex weddings. They just choose not to exercise that right as a (former) poster boy of the BU - Steve Chalke - broke ranks on that one.
Then there's conduct and capability .... and of course, if one gets caught doing infant baptism (see 4 above) that's a good way to raise eyebrows.
2. Taking part is no problem. I can't see the shrine inviting many Baptists (I don't think it was ecumenical in that way) as they wouldn't recognise a Baptist "ordination." We are of course very tainted in many eyes as we were the first major denomination to ordain women (in the 1920's). I've never heard of anyone being invited.
As for east Anglia being a hotbed of Baptism - it is and isn't true. There's a lot of Strict Baptists around and they'd see the shrine as the devil's paradise on earth. That area of Norfolk tends to be very high church/anglo catholic afaik and isn't renowned for its ecumenism except with RC's and Orthodox.
3. Possibly. A Baptist can be in an LEP (Local Ecumenical project) and act as the Vicar of such place but can't perform an Anglican wedding. It's a kind of compromise "acting as" but not "being, the." He/she is not a clerk in holy orders as required by canon - the daft thing is that there's no barrier to a cofe priest performing a wedding in a Baptist church.
Even in LEP's Baptist Ministers are not supposed to conduct christenings - an Anglican tends to be imported for both these and weddings. That's one reason why LEP's don't really work - there's little acceptance of differences on such issues.
4. See 1 and 3 above. Possibly if you kept on doing it.
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ExclamationMark
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
And could you point me to the place in the 39 articles were it says that ordination as such (and not merely the legal right to celebrate) can be revoked?
Sorry I wasn't clear in my post - I was referring here to the worship of saints and mary which is proscribed, not to ordination.
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
[QUOTE]
1. In the Church of England, ordination sticks. That doesn't mean that anyone can licitly celebrate in the CofE. But their ordination stays.
2. But if a priest should be 'fired,' what would stop him from celebrating Masses at the shrine in Walsingham? The CofE do not have jurisdiction there.
1. So there's nothing that can lead to ordination being removed? I guess though it's much easier to remove a licence or permission to officiate. That's removal of ordination is all but name: a priest without pto is what?
Besides which this is usually only done in extreme cases. Do the church really see what kind of laughing stock they make of themselves when child abusers and the like are just refused pto and don't have their ordination removed?
It's one problem of believing in ontological change at ordination (with which many of us don't concur).
2. No jurisdiction but why do Bishops and others continue to give it credence by concelebrating there?
On the basis on your argument, the extreme position is that the shrine becomes a bolt hole for priests who are denied pto elsewhere. Who knows what dirty linen might well be piled up?
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
[QUOTE]Or, as I preferred to put it upthread, it tends to pay more attention to the aesthetics of its worship.
Also, I've always thought there's a sort of restraint to the worship at the Anglican Shrine, as if it's aware it exists within a Church that on the whole Doesn't Really Do This Sort Of Thing. There are few gynaecological / Freudian metaphors flung around in its Mariology. Our Lady herself is portrayed as a generously proportioned Anglo-Saxon matron, rather than as a pretty, willowy teenager who looks like she'd fall over in a stiffish breeze. There's a pervading sense that, when all's said and done, this is rural Norfolk, whose folk are known for their earthy common sense.
Agreed - but on the two occasions I've been there, locals seem conspicuous by their absence. I rather suspect that earthy common sense takes them elsewhere to worship and probably to live, since incomers have pushed up house prices beyond the reach of the families who've lived there for generations.
I've visited the shrine on 2 occasions over 20 years apart. Little seemed to have changed, although I'm more likely to be theologically generous to a tradition that is alien to me, these days. The same kind of priests, the same kind of Islington on sea trendies down from Burnham. Sadly, as is mentioned elsewhere above, there's little reference to Christ and most of the answered prayers thank Mary not Him. sad.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
EM - would it be the Strict Baptists who protest pilgrimages/the Shrine in general? I haven't been but my housemate has been going since a babe in arms and says there's always people shouting 'no Popery' and so on when she's there.
FWIW I feel that the DH issues may have kept away the less exclusive kind of priest - my housemate's dad, a very ordinary kind of man (working class background, no degree before training, parish is a working class area) feels unable to go now because of the Ordinariate and associated DH unpleasantness.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Spike
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# 36
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Posted
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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
EM - would it be the Strict Baptists who protest pilgrimages/the Shrine in general? I haven't been but my housemate has been going since a babe in arms and says there's always people shouting 'no Popery' and so on when she's there.
It's really only at the National Pilgrimage that takes place on Spring Bank Holiday Monday where that happens, and nowadays less so than in the past. The rest of the year it's a peaceful little village.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Agreed - but on the two occasions I've been there, locals seem conspicuous by their absence.
Hardly surprising as the the shrine isn't aimed at locals, but rather pilgrims visiting from all over the country. The local parish church is well attended by locals though, as are the Methodist and Roman Catholic churches in the village.
quote:
I rather suspect that earthy common sense takes them elsewhere to worship and probably to live, since incomers have pushed up house prices beyond the reach of the families who've lived there for generations.
Show me any quaint English village where this isn't the case
quote:
Sadly, as is mentioned elsewhere above, there's little reference to Christ and most of the answered prayers thank Mary not Him. sad.
Really? Have you been visiting the same shrine as the rest of us?
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
1. EM - would it be the Strict Baptists who protest pilgrimages/the Shrine in general? I haven't been but my housemate has been going since a babe in arms and says there's always people shouting 'no Popery' and so on when she's there.
2. FWIW I feel that the DH issues may have kept away the less exclusive kind of priest - my housemate's dad, a very ordinary kind of man (working class background, no degree before training, parish is a working class area) feels unable to go now because of the Ordinariate and associated DH unpleasantness.
1. Yes it's the Strict Baptists and Reformed people who do that. There's a sprinkling of Anglicans too
2. Yes that's about it. The only DH that's acceptable are gay priests. 51% of the population are side lined even though it's one of them who is being venerated.
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Pomona
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
EM - would it be the Strict Baptists who protest pilgrimages/the Shrine in general? I haven't been but my housemate has been going since a babe in arms and says there's always people shouting 'no Popery' and so on when she's there.
It's really only at the National Pilgrimage that takes place on Spring Bank Holiday Monday where that happens, and nowadays less so than in the past. The rest of the year it's a peaceful little village.
Ah thank you, that's when she goes and I did find it odd that other friends who go at other times never mention this!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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