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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW 2685 - St Margaret's Westminster
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
The MW report on St Margaret's Westminster
MW report
raise a couple of questions. The first, very minor, is that Bishop Kay Goldsworthy is not Bishop of Perth, but rather that she is an Assistant Bishop in the Perth Diocese. ++Roger Herft is the Archbishop of Perth.
Given that St Margaret's is a Royal Peculiar, whose permission was given, or would be needed for + Kay to preside and preach? I recall that there was some controversy a couple of years ago when ++ Katherine was not given permission to preach in a UK church.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Correction made.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
I think the controversy re the PB was tht she was told not to wear her mitre! Since the CofE ordains women as priests, there is no reason why a female bishop from another province cannot preside or preach, but as we do not yet consecrate women as bishops, a female bishop may not do bishopy things - including apparently putting your ecclesiastical hat on! Mitregate made us look silly.
However, any visiting priest/ preacher needs the incumbent's permission to operate. +Kay was invited by the Dean of Westminster (I guess....)
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Maggie's delightful (as usual) Report remains, alas, silent on the subject of the vestments of the ministers! I'm guessing that +Kay probably sported alb, stole, and chasuble, leaving off the mitre.......
/smelly dead animal tangent alert/
It's interesting that, nowhere in the Report, is +Kay's gender mentioned......for the Reporter, the importance of reception of the Sacrament and the message of the Gospel is clearly paramount......
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Swick
Shipmate
# 8773
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Posted
I had to laugh at the mystery worshipper's surprise at the asperges/water sprinkling. In the USA this is done in more catholic oriented Episcopal churches, but probably not in the average church. I attended Easter Day at a friend's church where the priest did this, and most of the parishioners were *very* surprised, and the choir was quite miffed that their service music got wet.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Funny that the mitre's so damn important. The more universal symbols of episcopacy in the Anglican Communion are the episcopal ring and pectoral cross. I wonder if rochet and chimere would have been deemed as offensive as a mitre?
[ 29. April 2014, 13:48: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
I don't know what +Kay wore during her time at the Abbey, but on Maundy Thursday she did join the Canons of Westminster in the procession at St. Paul's Cathedral at the Chrism Mass.
She was with them, not with the bishops - though the groups of bishops were those licensed as such in the Diocese of London. She wore a cope and stole matching those of the canons and her pectoral cross. I don't recall whether she was wearing cassock-alb, surplice or rochet under the cope. I couldn't see if she was wearing her episcopal ring. Definitely no mitre.
[ 29. April 2014, 15:21: Message edited by: TomM ]
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I wonder if rochet and chimere would have been deemed as offensive as a mitre?
Yes because
a) they're protestant
In what way?
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
b) they have everything to do with establishment and the house of Lords and nothing to do with the office of bishop apart from unelected political functions
Are you sure?
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
b) they have everything to do with establishment and the house of Lords and nothing to do with the office of bishop apart from unelected political functions
Anglican bishops throughout the world wear rochet and chimere as symbols of office.
Here's a picture of some bishops at Lambeth 2008. Surely not a single one of them is an English bishop who sits in the house of Lords -- not even the rather homely female bishops on the far right and far left sides of the photo-group.... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Correction made.
Thank you Miss Amanda. The only woman diocesan here (so far) is + Sarah Grafton. It's interesting to note that + Kay was a strong candidate to be elected diocesan of Newcastle last year - where her present ++ had been diocesan until around 2005.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Has the sky fallen in there Zappa? It has not here. Said in the context of obtaining some advice as to the authority needed for + Kay to preside and preach in a Royal Peculiar.
To talk about the tangent: Bishops have long worn rochets, and rochet and chimere have been standard vesting for bishops in Sydney since + William Broughton (a strong high churchman) was appointed as Bishop of Australia in 1836 and then of Sydney in 1845. But the tradition is much older. Holinshed records an altercation in between the ++ Canterbury and ++ York of the day over who sat on the legate’s right and who the left at convocation. After the melée, ++ York “with his rent rochet got up, and awaie he went to the King” – who proceeded to laugh York out of court.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I wonder if rochet and chimere would have been deemed as offensive as a mitre?
Yes because
a) they're protestant
b) they have everything to do with establishment and the house of Lords and nothing to do with the office of bishop apart from unelected political functions
http://ordinariateexpats.wordpress.com/2014/04/23/some-anglican-patrimony-vestments-at-olw-houston/
Anglo-catholics in particular are reminded that nowhere in the BCP is the word "Protestant" to be found, but the word "Catholic", yes and more than once, because in Anglican eyes, the Church of England did not cease to be catholic at the Reformation.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Anglo-catholics in particular are reminded that nowhere in the BCP is the word "Protestant" to be found, but the word "Catholic", yes and more than once, because in Anglican eyes, the Church of England did not cease to be catholic at the Reformation.
Hear! Hear!
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
If you want to debate whether Anglicans are or are not protestant, then you know where Purgatory is.
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I wonder if rochet and chimere would have been deemed as offensive as a mitre?
Yes because
a) they're protestant
b) they have everything to do with establishment and the house of Lords and nothing to do with the office of bishop apart from unelected political functions
The "old" Catholic Encyclopedia does not appear to agree with you:
quote:
The rochet is not a vestment pertaining to all clerics, like the surplice; it is distinctive of prelates, and may be worn by other ecclesiastics only when (as, e.g., in the case of cathedral chapters) the usus rochetti has been granted them by a special papal indult.
and
quote:
The origin of the rochet may be traced from the clerical (non- liturgical) alba or camisia, that is, the clerical linen tunic of everyday life. It was thus not originally distinctive of the higher ecclesiastics alone.
The "new" Catholic Encyclopedia only mentions the rochet as a variation of the surplice proper to bishops.
Neither, oddly, mentions protestants, establishment or the House of Lords once.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I am most surprised that it hasn't...... And it hasn't here.either. Most strange.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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