Ship of Fools: Staffing Levels...

Thread: Staffing Levels... Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by thwarted_thurifer (# 16177) on :

Hi. Something came up in conversation after a "do" i was at last week, but the answer is lost in the mists of time relative to those of us who were there.

In the post-conciliar roman rite, priests always act as priests, and ditto for deacons, even though some aspects of what they do (by way of assisting the principle celebrant) is a little like the duties of a deacon. In the extraordinary form, they acted in those roles as deacon and subdeacon respectively, to the limit of those roles. So far, so good, personal feelings on the matter notwithstanding.

However, in the ordinary form, you often see two minsters- two priests concelebrating, or one priest and a deacon (permanent or transitional)whereas in the extraordinary form the number of minsters seems to be assumed as three (high mass) or one (low mass/missa cantata, although you could have three for that too?). But, since and deacons and subdeacons would, in the Good Old Days, have been transitional, and these roles were usually filled by priests, what did you do if you only had two? Could you use one as deacon and omit the subdeacon, or was it all-or-nothing?

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

If there are two, then the second cleric is generally in choir. This happens frequently at our FSSP shack. (And there are several hundred locations in North America that offer the EF Mass every Sunday, including several dozen parishes and communities run by the traditional orders FSSP and ICRSS, so this is fairly common.)

The Holy Week revisions of 1955 were followed by some tweaks in 1957, one of which allowed for a sort of semi-Solemn Mass, with a celebrant and deacon, but no subdeacon. That, however, was only for Holy Week. A similar form for general use appeared during the transitional years of the late sixties and early seventies, the last of the subdiaconate in most places. (It is still a part of the traditional orders.) [Smile]

[ 14. May 2014, 11:22: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]

Posted by thwarted_thurifer (# 16177) on :

Ah, thanks for that. I'd assumed it was in some way not allowed, but most texts tell you what you can do, not what you can't....

Posted by TomM (# 4618) on :

The other common role for a 'spare' priest would be as a server - in the vetus ordo when each priest had to say their own daily mass, it seems to have been not unusual to take turns serving and celebrating.

Posted by thwarted_thurifer (# 16177) on :

A "spare" priest! Is there a part number to order those?

We used to have one go to the tabernacle for the ciborium at the sign of peace, help distribute and retire afterwards- they were known as the "cuckoo priest" but I can't remember why. They never sat in choir as they came from mass elsewhere, although the priest in charge when i started serving always came on and sat in choir at the principle mass if he wasn't celebrating it.

Posted by FCB (# 1495) on :

I believe in the old Carthusian Rite it was possible (maybe even normal) to celebrate with a priest and deacon and no subdeacon. I believe the deacon also omitted the dalmatic.

Posted by BulldogSacristan (# 11239) on :

Isn't this situation in which you might have a "sung mass"? It's not a high mass, but does have fuller ceremony, more servers, and maybe a spare priest in choir.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
it seems to have been not unusual to take turns serving and celebrating.

I've heard that St. Thomas Aquinas and his priest secretary would do that daily while he was writing the Summa. There's something terribly fitting and comforting about knowing that Aquinas both said Mass and served someone else's Mass before writing each day.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
Isn't this situation in which you might have a "sung mass"? It's not a high mass, but does have fuller ceremony, more servers, and maybe a spare priest in choir.

Yes, that is pretty much what happens on most Sundays.

Posted by Robertus Liverpolitanae (# 12011) on :

Fortescue et al suggest that a cleric in major orders (and some minor) might sing the epistle during a Missa Cantata , though without the ceremonial that would attend a subdeacon's performance of this action

I've never seen this done

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Robertus Liverpolitanae:
Fortescue et al suggest that a cleric in major orders (and some minor) might sing the epistle during a Missa Cantata , though without the ceremonial that would attend a subdeacon's performance of this action

I've never seen this done

We frequently do it at our FSSP parish, where we have a deacon. The MC (Yours Truly) does not attend the cleric, as at Solemn Mass, nor does the cleric obtain a blessing after the reading.

Posted by FCB (# 1495) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:

quote:
Originally posted by Robertus Liverpolitanae:
Fortescue et al suggest that a cleric in major orders (and some minor) might sing the epistle during a Missa Cantata , though without the ceremonial that would attend a subdeacon's performance of this action

I've never seen this done
We frequently do it at our FSSP parish, where we have a deacon. The MC (Yours Truly) does not attend the cleric, as at Solemn Mass, nor does the cleric obtain a blessing after the reading.

I've seen it done in the old Dominican Rite.

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